/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 27 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:07] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  4. # [00:10] <Hixie> gsnedders: http://www.whatwg.org/demos/2008-sept/video/
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  7. # [00:19] <othermaciej> Hixie: whatwg never got the kind of giant publicity explosion in the same way
  8. # [00:19] <othermaciej> Hixie: a least not at laucnh
  9. # [00:19] <othermaciej> Hixie: and it is not conducive to politically oriented types
  10. # [00:20] <Hixie> that was intentional -- i told the w3c not to make a big deal out of it, but they felt compelled to do it anyway
  11. # [00:20] <othermaciej> both due to lack offficial status, and due to the way ou run things
  12. # [00:20] <Hixie> still can't believe they released a _press release_ with the FPWD
  13. # [00:20] <Hixie> so stupid
  14. # [00:21] <Hixie> it's more evidence of how they are trying to keep the w3c alive at the cost of the web, instead of the other way around
  15. # [00:30] <othermaciej> well, they need money and attention can be helpful towards such goals
  16. # [00:30] <othermaciej> still, if the W3C wanted good general PR, there are much better things they could do or be doing
  17. # [00:30] <othermaciej> but they do not seem to have the management in place to do sane things
  18. # [00:35] <roc> hostile takeover by the WHATWG
  19. # [00:35] <Hixie> were it only possible
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  21. # [00:43] <othermaciej> I must admit, learning that the W3C fails even at making money shocked me
  22. # [00:44] <othermaciej> I thought it was the one thing they were halfway good at
  23. # [00:45] <roc> they could of course save a lot of money by shutting down all the bogus groups
  24. # [00:45] <roc> but I guess that would also impact revenue
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  27. # [00:47] <jcranmer> how does the W3C even get revenue?
  28. # [00:47] <Dashiva> Member fees?
  29. # [00:47] <Dashiva> *Membership
  30. # [00:47] <jcranmer> oh
  31. # [00:49] <othermaciej> is anyone a member just to participate in the winfest that is OWL?
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  33. # [00:50] <Dashiva> I figure anyone involved with OWL has interests in all the other SW stuff
  34. # [00:50] <othermaciej> all of which is equally a winfest
  35. # [00:53] <roc> hmm. I assume "winfest" expands to "festival of wins", but that doesn't sound right
  36. # [00:54] <Dashiva> roc: There may or may be some element of sarcasm involved
  37. # [00:54] * roc recalibrates his detector
  38. # [00:54] <Dashiva> omg
  39. # [00:55] <Dashiva> Hixie promotes @alt in the video
  40. # [00:55] <Hixie> lies!
  41. # [00:55] <Dashiva> And I used to think you were cool
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  46. # [01:22] <Dashiva> Boo, canvas
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  52. # [01:47] <Hixie> Dashiva: how was the talk?
  53. # [01:48] <Hixie> should i blog it?
  54. # [01:48] <Dashiva> It was good. Personally I was disappointed when canvas turned out to be the last thing, since canvas is totally old to me. But for a regular person, sure.
  55. # [01:49] <Dashiva> And you're good at repeating the questions asked :)
  56. # [01:51] <Hixie> i try!
  57. # [01:51] <Hixie> :-)
  58. # [01:51] <Hixie> glad you liked it
  59. # [01:51] <Hixie> i was really worried it would just come out really bad
  60. # [01:51] <Hixie> but i'm pretty happy with how the video turned out
  61. # [01:52] <Dashiva> The "oops it doesn't work" parts gave it an authentic feeling, and since you managed to pick most of them up fast, it didn't crash and burn either ;)
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  64. # [01:55] <Hixie> Dashiva: each one was scary because i'd prepared the thing the weekend before and so i thought i'd gotten out all the bugs!
  65. # [01:55] <Hixie> Dashiva: especially the firefox frame reload thing
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  67. # [01:55] <Hixie> Dashiva: i should have caught that in preparing for it
  68. # [01:55] <Dashiva> Yeah, that one surprised me, since reloading the frame was the very first thing I thought of
  69. # [01:56] <Hixie> i shift-reloaded, it should have reloaded it for me!
  70. # [01:56] <Hixie> also i forgot to set up the "earlier.txt" file in the editor demo, so it came up blank... not that anyone realised i was trying to bring one up i'd prepared earlier
  71. # [01:57] <Hixie> blogged http://blog.whatwg.org/
  72. # [01:57] <Hixie> http://blog.whatwg.org/demos-2008-sept
  73. # [01:57] <Dashiva> I guess being used to Opera's eager caching has made me used to frames needing a little encouragement
  74. # [01:57] <Hixie> opera's caching is asinine
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  76. # [02:00] <heycam> Hixie, any reason section numbers that consist of one or four numbers have a trailing dot, but those with two or three numbers don't?
  77. # [02:00] <Hixie> bug in bert's script i expect
  78. # [02:01] <hasather> Hixie: nice talk
  79. # [02:01] <Hixie> heycam: when gsnedders fixes the bug in his script and anne deploys the fix, i'll switch to the new post processor and that will go away
  80. # [02:01] <Hixie> hasather: thanks :-)
  81. # [02:02] <heycam> Hixie, k :)
  82. # [02:02] <Dashiva> Hixie: Your clothing markup was missing a <title> tag as far as I could see
  83. # [02:03] <Hixie> Dashiva: i have a baseball cap that says <head/>
  84. # [02:08] <Hixie> ok i blogged, updated http://whatwg.org/, updated http://whatwg.org/demos/2008-sept/, and twittered.
  85. # [02:10] <hasather> Hixie: wrong URLs for the demos
  86. # [02:10] <Hixie> where?
  87. # [02:10] <hasather> Hixie: at http://blog.whatwg.org/demos-2008-sept
  88. # [02:10] <Hixie> oh i see
  89. # [02:11] <Hixie> try now
  90. # [02:11] <hasather> Hixie: yep, thanks
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  97. # [02:56] <olliej> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/demos/2008-sept/color/color.html is awesome
  98. # [02:57] <Hixie> if you think that's awesome try removing the context.restore() line
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  132. # [06:20] <erlehmann__> oh hi, future commitee of the web
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  135. # [06:31] <erlehmann> can anyone explain to me why the draft says something about images that are just decorative ? shouldn't that be handled by CSS ?
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  140. # [07:37] <Hixie> erlehmann: often, yes, but it's harmless to have decorative images that are specific to the page, e.g. in some of my blog entries i have pictures of trees i've made.
  141. # [07:42] <erlehmann> Hixie: "This image is randomly selected from Flickr using Yahoo!" ?
  142. # [07:42] <Hixie> that wasn't the one i was thinking about, but that's another example, yeah
  143. # [07:43] <Hixie> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1180683614&count=1 is one example
  144. # [07:43] <Hixie> the second two images are just decorative
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  147. # [07:58] <erlehmann> "just decorative" as of 4.8.2.1.6. "A purely decorative image that doesn't add any information but is still specific to the surrounding content" ?
  148. # [07:58] <Hixie> yeah
  149. # [07:58] <Hixie> oh
  150. # [07:59] <Hixie> well those are kinda different
  151. # [07:59] <Hixie> but they both get alt=""
  152. # [08:00] <erlehmann> i just want to understand the semantics of the new <img> rules ...
  153. # [08:00] <erlehmann> so what was your rationale to not have these images in CSS ?
  154. # [08:01] <Hixie> they're allowed in CSS
  155. # [08:01] <Hixie> but it is often convenient to be able to put one-off images in the markup instead of CSS
  156. # [08:01] <Hixie> otherwise you end up with many one-off rules in CSS
  157. # [08:02] <erlehmann> well, inline CSS is still allowed, or isn't it ?
  158. # [08:02] <erlehmann> then, more correctly, if these images in your blog aren't like "4.8.2.1.6." ones, what semantice function do they have ?
  159. # [08:04] <Hixie> hm, you're right, these kinds of images simply aren't mentioned
  160. # [08:04] <Hixie> i should add a section about them
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  164. # [08:06] <Hixie> <Hixie> hm, you're right, these kinds of images simply aren't mentioned
  165. # [08:06] <Hixie> <Hixie> i should add a section about them
  166. # [08:06] <erlehmann> ah thx
  167. # [08:08] <Hixie> ok, noted the request
  168. # [08:08] <erlehmann> i'm still a bit confused - what exactly distinguishes them (the 2 imgs in question) from "purely decorative" ?
  169. # [08:08] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  170. # [08:09] <erlehmann> well, the first image has a very specific alt text and is clearly related to the text. clearly something would be amiss, if there weren't.
  171. # [08:09] <Hixie> right
  172. # [08:12] <erlehmann> so what would be amiss, if the second type of image just went away ? if the answer is "something", it should (semantically) be viewed as content (and thus probably have an alt text ?). if the answer is "nothing", then images of this type are deco, or aren't they ?
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  174. # [08:21] <Hixie> nothing would be amiss
  175. # [08:21] <Hixie> the only reason to put these in html rather than css is conveniene
  176. # [08:21] <Hixie> convenience
  177. # [08:45] <erlehmann> Hixie: i believe this should be discouraged. i mean, i remember people who laid out tables "for convenience" ...
  178. # [08:47] <Hixie> using tables for layout causes harm, because it makes the page less accessible, in that the page doesn't represent the actual structure of the page, and pretends to use a data table when it does not
  179. # [08:47] <Hixie> these problems don't occur with using <img> for one-off purely decorative images
  180. # [08:48] <erlehmann> that's right, indeed.
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  182. # [08:50] <erlehmann> but the semantic value tends to be zero and that makes me somehow uneasy.
  183. # [08:50] <erlehmann> (my table analogy was only from a pure semantic POV, not from a practical accessability one)
  184. # [08:51] <Hixie> i agree that using css for this should be encouraged
  185. # [08:52] <Hixie> but there's no reason to make this more complicated for authors than necessary just for purity
  186. # [08:55] <erlehmann> well, it makes the rules more complicated, but it certainly is a viable solution for those who don't need the flexibility provided by CSS.
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  188. # [08:57] <erlehmann> is there something intended for the spec like "best CSS practices" perhaps in an appendix ?
  189. # [08:58] <erlehmann> like "Things that you CAN do with this specification but they are better handled using other technologies that are further described herein"
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  191. # [09:01] <erlehmann> or should this rather be the domain of tutorials ?
  192. # [09:01] <erlehmann> (as in, not mentioned anywhere in the spec)
  193. # [09:04] <takkaria> putting best CSS practices in an HTML spec seems like it's a bad idea
  194. # [09:04] <takkaria> I'd suggest CSS best practices go in a CSS spec of some kind
  195. # [09:06] <Hixie> erlehmann: for the img case i expect when i add the aforementioned section i'll mention that css is potentially a better plan too
  196. # [09:06] <Hixie> but in general no, there's no plan for tutorial-like stuff there
  197. # [09:06] <erlehmann> good \o/
  198. # [09:09] <erlehmann> i was only asking b/c of "10. Things that you can't do with this specification because they are better handled using other technologies ..."
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  210. # [10:54] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Sep/0097.html
  211. # [10:54] <hsivonen> why is that funny?
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  214. # [11:13] <gsnedders> Hixie: Can I count the number of times you use the future tense?
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  218. # [11:41] <annevk2> sometimes Elliotte Rusty Harold makes sense, sometimes he really doesn't
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  220. # [11:50] <gsnedders> Hixie: HTML 5 will not be ready i n< 2008
  221. # [11:50] <gsnedders> *in
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  231. # [12:55] <gsnedders> First lap on GT4 (the 'ring in an R8) in around a year: 8:33
  232. # [13:00] <gsnedders> Lap twp: 7:09
  233. # [13:04] <Philip`> By lap seven, you'll be finishing the lap before you even start
  234. # [13:06] <gsnedders> :P
  235. # [13:07] <gsnedders> 6:20s is what I should get it down to
  236. # [13:07] <gsnedders> Then I can beat BenMillard :P
  237. # [13:07] <gsnedders> (6:20s is what I could do with same car/track on Forza 2)
  238. # [13:12] <annevk2> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/0047.html is funny
  239. # [13:18] * Quits: roc (n=roc@222-152-163-35.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
  240. # [13:19] <annevk2> In that the Forms WG is now imitating us in names and design patterns. (Web Forms 2.0 was originally called XForms Basic and inspired by XForms.)
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  250. # [15:11] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
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  257. # [16:31] <hsivonen> "Richard's Hotmail" isn't making his point in the most persuasive way...
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  259. # [16:33] <takkaria> no, he seems to ignore everything everyone says
  260. # [16:33] <takkaria> (about how he should argue the point)
  261. # [16:35] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable144.140-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  262. # [16:52] <erlehmann> Is anyone doing a thorough examination of codecs and container formats for patent purposes ?
  263. # [16:59] <hsivonen> erlehmann: if someone is, (s)he isn't announcing it
  264. # [17:00] <hsivonen> s/isn't announcing/hasn't announced/
  265. # [17:01] * eric_carlson_ is now known as eric_carlson
  266. # [17:10] <erlehmann> hsivonen: i wonder if AOL (winamp) or real networks (helix) have done that. probably should write them.
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  270. # [18:27] * gsnedders turns part of his personal statement into a sexual innuendo
  271. # [18:27] <gsnedders> I didn't intend that. Srsly.
  272. # [18:35] <Dashiva> That's what she said
  273. # [18:36] <gsnedders> :P
  274. # [18:36] <gsnedders> Dashiva: But… but… I thought she loved me!
  275. # [18:37] <gsnedders> I mean, that's what she said!
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  286. # [19:56] <gsnedders> jgraham, Philip`: Comments within 24 hours would be nice, this time :)
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  289. # [20:47] <Hixie> poor forms wg
  290. # [20:48] <Hixie> they are moving to the name web forms after 5 years just we are moving away from it
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  296. # [21:12] <hsivonen> will XHTML2 be renamed to HTML-A? :-)
  297. # [21:15] <Dashiva> HTML-A could be seen as HTML-10
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  299. # [21:44] <Hixie> ah, i see
  300. # [21:44] <Hixie> WebForms A -> WebForms 10 in decimal, and Web Forms 10 in binary -> WebForms 2 in decimal
  301. # [21:49] <Hixie> i don't understand what http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/streamlined/index-all.html is supposed to be
  302. # [21:49] <Hixie> it doesn't seem to be xforms, and it doesn't seem to be html4 forms
  303. # [21:52] <Dashiva> Looks like a way to create XML representing the value state of a HTML form
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  310. # [22:36] <hsivonen> "Leigh Klotz: Nobody wants a simplified version of something they already don't want."
  311. # [22:36] <hsivonen> Source: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/att-0046/2008-09-24.html
  312. # [22:37] <hsivonen> "Leigh Klotz: "XFormsA" is a good start but I think it needs a new name that isn't XForms."
  313. # [22:37] <gsnedders> Do they really have blockquote { font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', sans-serif, arial; } !?
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  315. # [22:40] <Philip`> hsivonen: That generalisation seems clearly false - e.g. consider something that people want, then add a load of unnecessary complexity so that nobody wants it any more; then they would still want the simplified version, since it's exactly the same as the pre-complexification thing that they wanted
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  326. # Session Close: Sun Sep 28 00:00:00 2008

The end :)