/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Sep 29 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  27. # [02:08] <Dashiva> I wonder what percentage of posts using the term 'opportunity cost' are hsivonen's :)
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  30. # [02:11] <Hixie> most people don't think of the opportunity cost of things, and that's especially the case in public-html
  31. # [02:11] <Hixie> and of those who do, many think the opp cost of replying to e-mails where the opp cost is being ignored isn't worth it
  32. # [02:11] <Hixie> so probably the majority :-)
  33. # [02:13] <jcranmer> and people wonder why there's an economic crisis...
  34. # [02:13] <jcranmer> honestly, if people can't apply basic economic principles to every day situations, what good is our school system?
  35. # [02:14] <Hixie> which school system?
  36. # [02:15] <jcranmer> our = <insert any country here>
  37. # [02:16] <Hixie> ah
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  123. # [15:48] <zcorpan_> hmm 10 october doesn't seem like 3 weeks (for svg 1.2 tiny)
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  125. # [15:49] <zcorpan_> oh it was a reminder
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  140. # [17:18] <zcorpan_> does http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core#dom-node-insertbefore make sense or am i smoking crack?
  141. # [17:18] <zcorpan_> and http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core#legal-hierarchy
  142. # [17:19] <annevk2> undefined=null should be in the IDL
  143. # [17:20] <annevk2> and you should prolly say that it should go between the previous sibiling and the refChild
  144. # [17:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: does DocumentFragment insertion really happen as shorthand that calls other public APIs?
  145. # [17:20] <annevk2> and you should handle what happens if you pass non DOM objects
  146. # [17:20] <annevk2> or if newChild is null
  147. # [17:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: if not, it should probably say that the impl. must call its internal methods if the public methods have been replaced in JS
  148. # [17:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: (this comment is without testing)
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  150. # [17:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: otherwise, looks good
  151. # [17:22] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ah. didn't think about that. i guess i should just say "recursively invoke this algorithm" or some such
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  153. # [17:31] <zcorpan_> ok fixed both, thanks
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  155. # [17:33] <zcorpan_> annevk2: doesn't webidl cover what happens when you pass the wrong thing?
  156. # [17:39] <zcorpan_> hmm maybe it doesn't
  157. # [17:44] <zcorpan_> annevk2: what if refChild doesn't have a previous sibling?
  158. # [17:44] <zcorpan_> annevk2: isn't the current text clear enough?
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  160. # [17:50] <zcorpan_> hmm what if refChild isn't a child of the relevant node
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  176. # [19:19] <dglazkov> hello, an querySelector fanatics here?
  177. # [19:19] * dglazkov looks straight at Hixie
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  187. # [20:32] <annevk2> HTML5 is mentioned a lot at The Ajax Experience
  188. # [20:32] <annevk2> we better keep it up :)
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  194. # [21:08] <phroggy> so what would it take to get a Safari-compatible <input type="search"> officially added to HTML 5 (or Web Forms 2.0 or whatever specification is appropriate)?
  195. # [21:09] <takkaria> it is being added, AFAIK
  196. # [21:09] <gsnedders> phroggy: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Is_there_a_process_for_adding_new_features_to_the_spec.3F
  197. # [21:10] <takkaria> oh, maybe it isn't
  198. # [21:10] <takkaria> ah well
  199. # [21:11] <gsnedders> IIRC it's still undecided
  200. # [21:11] <gsnedders> http://gender.twitmarks.com/g.php?username=whatwg
  201. # [21:12] <hsivonen> looks like it has been filed under WF3: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/folder/WF3-search
  202. # [21:14] <takkaria> heh, as if you can tell the gender of someone from their twitters...
  203. # [21:14] <phroggy> I asked some Mozilla and Opera people about adding support, and they basically said unless W3C or WHATWG puts it in a standard they're not interested.
  204. # [21:15] <phroggy> so I figured I should ask here. ;-)
  205. # [21:16] <takkaria> well, send mail to the whatwg list saying what problems lead you to believe it's necessary
  206. # [21:16] <gsnedders> takkaria: We're just around to make telling gender a bit harder
  207. # [21:17] <takkaria> if you ever guess my gender, please tell me, cos I don't have a clue :P
  208. # [21:18] <phroggy> the problem is that a bunch of sites emulate various aspects of this behavior through creative JavaScript hacking; they all have to reinvent the wheel, and some of them reinvent it poorly.
  209. # [21:18] <phroggy> does that sound sufficient?
  210. # [21:18] <gsnedders> takkaria: Well, there's a 60% chance you're female.
  211. # [21:19] <takkaria> phroggy: well, if you follow the process, and say what your problem is, and why <input type=search> is a good solution over JavaScript or other solutions, then that would be very useful
  212. # [21:19] <gsnedders> takkaria: (Before I clicked on, "No…", I was 85% female)
  213. # [21:21] <phroggy> takkaria: I assume that other people have already been talking about it, so I'm curious if there's any opposition? I haven't been able to find much discussion.
  214. # [21:22] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.202.33.235)
  215. # [21:23] <hsivonen> phroggy: the link I pasted a while ago is the record so far
  216. # [21:24] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-65ba5dbfe348289a)
  217. # [21:26] <takkaria> phroggy: the editor hasn't considered the feedback yet, it seems, but when he does, it would be useful if as many people as possible put forward problem descriptions and reasons for choosing given solutions
  218. # [21:56] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L8aa4.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
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  224. # [22:14] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  225. # [22:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: Will you have time in the next 22 hours?
  226. # [22:36] <gsnedders> Philip`: And/or you?
  227. # [22:36] <gsnedders> (to look at my personal statement)
  228. # [22:42] * fakeolliej is now known as olliej
  229. # [22:42] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@12.198.177.3)
  230. # [22:45] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-de003ac3f1c91214)
  231. # [22:46] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  232. # [22:46] * eseidel_ is now known as eseidel
  233. # [22:49] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-67-170-213-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  234. # [22:51] <Philip`> gsnedders: I looked at it briefly, but unfortunately it looks much better than the older version so I can't think of anything non-trivial and constructive to suggest
  235. # [22:51] <gsnedders> Philip`: Maybe that isn't that unfortunate :P
  236. # [22:51] <Philip`> gsnedders: Depends on your perspective :-)
  237. # [22:52] <gsnedders> Philip`: My guidance teacher thinks it is ready :P
  238. # [22:53] <annevk2> "The DOM API is the most verbose thing on earth" -- Andrew Dupont
  239. # [22:53] <annevk2> (at panel in The Ajax Experience)
  240. # [22:53] <annevk2> (#tae2008)
  241. # [22:54] <Dashiva> document.getPropertyByPropertyNamePropertyValue()
  242. # [22:55] <Philip`> Assuming he means the JS DOM API, that's not really true - it's beaten by the Java DOM API
  243. # [22:55] <Philip`> (Lots of fun typing of type names and casts)
  244. # [22:55] <annevk2> "I'd love to see a DOM binding for JavaScript that embraces the specifics of the language a bit more. More DOM Level 0 style, but still have that generic API for other languages." -- Andrew Dupont
  245. # [22:55] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-98dc30437e27fb87)
  246. # [22:55] <Dashiva> If you do it right you shoudln't need to cast :)
  247. # [22:56] <annevk2> "The problem with the DOM API is arrogance." -- ... (dojo)
  248. # [22:57] <annevk2> "Please with querySelectorAll." -- John Resig
  249. # [22:57] <annevk2> s/Please/Pleased/
  250. # [22:58] <annevk2> "Using HTML chunks is easier with HTML5, which standardizes innerHTML. Hope compat improves" -- John Resig
  251. # [22:58] <Philip`> Dashiva: Is there a right way to e.g. use getElementsByTagName (which returns a NodeList) and then call an Element (not Node) method on the result?
  252. # [22:59] <annevk2> "The verbosity is the biggest problem [of the DOM]" -- Chris Heilmann
  253. # [22:59] <annevk2> "insertBefore order of arguments is confusing." -- Chris Heilmann
  254. # [23:00] <annevk2> "Expect to see more JavaScript library methods in browsers." -- John Resig
  255. # [23:00] <hsivonen> Dashiva: how can you make a markup tree api in java that doesn't require casting and doesn't hoist every method to Node?
  256. # [23:00] <annevk2> "Amount of control libraries have is minimal unless they get involved." -- John Resig
  257. # [23:00] <Philip`> I like the argument order - you always put the newly inserted argument first, regardless of whether you're doing appendChild or insertBefore or replaceChild
  258. # [23:01] <annevk2> "Library vendors were not invited to take part in querySelectorAll until it was being implemented." -- John Resig
  259. # [23:01] <annevk2> "Hope we get asked for feedback early." -- John Resig
  260. # [23:01] * annevk2 sort of disagrees with those statements
  261. # [23:01] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I'm assuming here that the hoist everythibg pattern isn't "right"
  262. # [23:01] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-40-63.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  263. # [23:01] <Dashiva> hsivonen: The right way was to not use java. I suppose my smiley wasn't non-serious enough
  264. # [23:02] <annevk2> "We don't have much influence unless we participate in the standards process. Don't like doing that." ... (dojo)
  265. # [23:02] <annevk2> (panel is on JavaScript libraries, fwiw)
  266. # [23:02] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I see
  267. # [23:02] <Philip`> Dashiva: Your smiley wasn't sufficiently informative for me to deduce it meant "don't use Java" :-)
  268. # [23:03] <Dashiva> <abbr title="don't use java">:)</abbr>
  269. # [23:04] <annevk2> "If you're in the position to decide what goes into the DOM spec and what not, you should say 'no' by default." -- Andrew Dupont
  270. # [23:04] <annevk2> "CSS selectors obviously deserved a place in DOM Level 1." -- Andrew Dupont
  271. # [23:05] <hsivonen> annevk2: would have deserved?
  272. # [23:07] <annevk2> yes
  273. # [23:11] * roc wonders why JS library authors don't want us to add stuff to the DOM
  274. # [23:12] <Philip`> Because stuff added to the DOM would be unbeatable competition for those libraries?
  275. # [23:12] <Philip`> The worse the DOM is, the more people will use those libraries, and the more their authors will become famous and rich
  276. # [23:14] <annevk2> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/150577/which-browser-has-the-best-support-for-html-5-currently -- OpenID integration is quite nice
  277. # [23:15] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.61.57)
  278. # [23:17] <annevk2> "We don't hate each other, we hate the browsers." -- Andrew Dupont
  279. # [23:18] <annevk2> (from the rest of the chatting, I think by browser, they mean IE)
  280. # [23:21] <annevk2> lol
  281. # [23:22] <annevk2> Q: "If browsers all did the same thing and everything libraries did, would you guys go away?"
  282. # [23:22] <annevk2> A: "In this scenario I have a unicorn and a bag full of money." (dojo guy)
  283. # [23:25] <Dashiva> So a pony isn't good enough anymore?
  284. # [23:27] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.202.33.235)
  285. # [23:27] * annevk2 has to go, laptop battery fails
  286. # [23:28] * Parts: annevk2 (n=annevk@12.198.177.3)
  287. # [23:28] <smedero> Dashiva: A unicorn is much more "web 2.0".
  288. # [23:31] <hober> Dashiva: ponies are only for django users these days
  289. # [23:32] <jgraham> gsnedders: I can make a little time now. Although in a few minutes I will probably be told that I was supposed to be clearing my house
  290. # [23:36] * Quits: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@e179218190.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  291. # [23:37] * Quits: Maurice (n=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  292. # [23:58] <jgraham> gsnedders: Feedback sent
  293. # Session Close: Tue Sep 30 00:00:00 2008

The end :)