/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-09-30 / end

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  40. # [04:32] <Hixie> what should valueAsDate/valueAsNumber do when used with type=text/password/hidden/checkbox/radio/button/etc ?
  41. # [04:32] <Hixie> nothing, or throw?
  42. # [04:33] <Hixie> i'm thinking return null/NaN on getting, and throw on setting.
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  45. # [04:50] <phroggy> Is there an appropriate venue for asking the IE team to implement placeholder and/or <input type="search">?
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  50. # [05:11] <MikeSmith> phroggy: IE team has a real-time chat thing scheduled once a month
  51. # [05:11] <MikeSmith> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/default.mspx
  52. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> you might could join that and ask
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  58. # [05:26] <phroggy> MikeSmith: thanks, I'll try that.
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  85. # [08:06] <erlehmann> i wonder - what is the reason for not deprecating stuff that severely lacks semantics - like <b> or <i> or the target attribute ?
  86. # [08:07] <Hixie> we've given them semantics
  87. # [08:11] <erlehmann> well, i see that you tried - but say with <b>, we have "text to be stylistically offset from the normal prose without conveying any extra importance". and isn't exactly that totally non-semantic ?
  88. # [08:12] <erlehmann> i mean, a <span> + CSS can also be used to bolden text and has the same amount of "not conveying any extra importance"
  89. # [08:15] <erlehmann> and then there's a cognitive dissonance on my part - why mark something up, if it hasn't a special (semantic) role ? doesn't <b>stuff</b> imply that stuff is somehow important ?
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  91. # [08:18] <erlehmann> and even if it has, IMO it's to shallow defined to contrast <em> or <strong>, which are often italized or boldened themselves.
  92. # [08:19] <Hixie> <b> is for like keywords and stuff
  93. # [08:19] <Hixie> which aren't important in the way that <strong> is
  94. # [08:19] <Hixie> it has nothing to do with bold really, nor does strong
  95. # [08:20] <Hixie> same with <em>, <i>, <var>, <cite>... they're all "italics" by default, but that's not really the point
  96. # [08:23] <erlehmann> i usually mark up my keywords with <em>. so what exactly, in HTML5 terms, differs from marking them up with <b> ? is it just that keywords by itself aren't important, ever ?
  97. # [08:24] <Hixie> <em> means stress emphasis
  98. # [08:24] <erlehmann> like in speaking ?
  99. # [08:24] <Hixie> yeah
  100. # [08:24] <Hixie> there are detailed examples in the spec
  101. # [08:24] <erlehmann> so would it help if i think of <b> as <keyword> ?
  102. # [08:24] <erlehmann> if so, thank you.
  103. # [08:26] <Hixie> yeah, though it's not just for keywords
  104. # [08:26] <Hixie> there's a couple of other examples in the spec
  105. # [08:27] <erlehmann> then i'd still suggest replacing "spans of text whose typical typographic presentation is boldened" with a more specific list - a mean, if that's possible, at all
  106. # [08:29] <Hixie> <b> is kind of the "fallback" element, which is why it's an open ended list
  107. # [08:30] <hsivonen> erlehmann: so what problem would be solved by not having <i> and <b>?
  108. # [08:30] <erlehmann> yeah, i see it. i'll try not to encounter the case where i'll have "exhausted" semantics, though. ;)
  109. # [08:31] <erlehmann> hsivonen: i got it. was just too fixated on the "spans of text whose typical typographic presentation" parts.
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  111. # [08:33] <erlehmann> now my second question: the target attribute. wasn't that commonly listed as one of the worst (read: most annoying) design mishaps in web history ?
  112. # [08:33] <hsivonen> erlehmann: what authors would be instead is even worse
  113. # [08:34] <hsivonen> erlehmann: making bad stuff declarative makes it more detectable by UAs and easier to opt out of
  114. # [08:34] <erlehmann> synthax error. did you mean " what authors would USE instead"
  115. # [08:34] <hsivonen> s/be instead/be doing instead/
  116. # [08:34] <erlehmann> ah okay.
  117. # [08:37] <erlehmann> so the reasoning for keeping it is that bad coders would do pop-ups and stuff with javascript ?
  118. # [08:38] <hsivonen> erlehmann: yeah
  119. # [08:40] <erlehmann> assuming a coder is so bad that he'd do that, wouldn't it be safer to just write into the spec why doing that is a very, very, very bad idea ? i mean, i've seen stuff like <a href="javascript: [...] "> but hell, those coders i've seen are still using <font> and frames. why would they even be interested in HTML5 ?
  120. # [08:41] <hsivonen> erlehmann: there have been people who've done window.open in order to cater for html 4.01 or xhtml 1.1 validation
  121. # [08:41] <hsivonen> erlehmann: the requirement to open windows may come from a client or boss or something
  122. # [08:42] <erlehmann> hsivonen: i hate people who do that with utmost dignity.
  123. # [08:44] <erlehmann> (i told the last client who wanted a song to play when the site loaded that i could, but wouldn't do and why)
  124. # [08:47] <erlehmann> i'll be back when i can coherently argument against catering to bad web designers. meanwhile, thank you for answering my questions.
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  126. # [08:59] <phroggy> I use target="_blank" when I have a very specific reason for doing so. I do it very sparingly, and having to hack around it with JavaScript would annoy me.
  127. # [09:00] <phroggy> whether the browser chooses to implement it by opening in a new window or a new tab doesn't matter to me; that should be the user's preference. However, there are times when navigating away from the current page is undesirable.
  128. # [09:00] <phroggy> of course I've seen this abused - retarded marketing people who think users should never navigate away from their page under any circumstances.
  129. # [09:02] <erlehmann> phroggy: are you aware of the fact that almost every browser let's the user choose - by means of distinguishing left, and middle-click, for example ?
  130. # [09:03] <phroggy> yes, but many users aren't sophisticated enough to make that choice intelligently.
  131. # [09:03] <erlehmann> assuming you are, what are these "very specific reason[s]" ? that boss / client says so ?
  132. # [09:03] <phroggy> and, when I specify target="_blank", middle-click still works.
  133. # [09:03] <erlehmann> many users are confused when the context changes in unexpected ways, the back button breaks, and so on.
  134. # [09:04] <erlehmann> so tell me, phroggy, when do you use it ?
  135. # [09:05] <phroggy> I just built a directory that allows users to enter various contact information including their MySpace, Facebook and LiveJournal IDs, then on a confirmation page presents these as clickable links that the user can test before submitting the form to save the info in the database. I set those links to use target="_blank".
  136. # [09:06] <phroggy> I know there are some people who would prefer to navigate to those links within the same window, then click the Back button to get back to the confirmation page (which is the result of a POST form and therefore not cached very nicely by some browsers)
  137. # [09:06] <phroggy> but I'm betting that MOST of my users don't want that.
  138. # [09:07] <erlehmann> i see. i'd NEVER work with myspace users, though ;)
  139. # [09:08] <phroggy> yes, well, this is a contact directory for old friends from high school. I personally despise MySpace, but some of them use it.
  140. # [09:09] <phroggy> but there's also a field for an arbitrary "home page" URL
  141. # [09:09] <erlehmann> also i never assume that i'm smarter than my users - but that lies probably in my choice of mates / clients / users :)
  142. # [09:09] <phroggy> which behaves the same way.
  143. # [09:09] <phroggy> indeed.
  144. # [09:10] <erlehmann> why don't you just accept the info and let them edit later ? or parse myspace / livejournal for info ?
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  146. # [09:10] <phroggy> they can edit it later, but they're more likely to catch mistakes if I immediately offer a clickable link they can try before submitting.
  147. # [09:11] <phroggy> the key to good design isn't necessarily being smarter than your users, but it is anticipating what your users will expect.
  148. # [09:12] <phroggy> you've heard of the Principle of Least Surprise?
  149. # [09:13] <erlehmann> links opening in the same window surprise me the least >:]
  150. # [09:14] <phroggy> yep, but I'm betting having the confirmation page go away will surprise my users more than having the links open in new windows.
  151. # [09:14] <phroggy> hmm, that's odd...
  152. # [09:14] <phroggy> I think my ISP just broke something.
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  154. # [09:17] <erlehmann> phroggy: you are playing on the same level as garvin hicking - quote: "What I absolutely dislike about xhtml+xml content type is that at least the last time I tried in Firefox any validation error will kill to display the blog. Until [sic !] the validation of XML dies so hard on user input, it's IMHO useless."
  155. # [09:18] <erlehmann> TLDR - understandable, but severely annoying in the end
  156. # [09:19] <phroggy> I have yet to make a site that allows users to submit arbitrary HTML code.
  157. # [09:20] <erlehmann> i currently do - we just validate our input against a subset of the XHTML DTD.
  158. # [09:20] <phroggy> :-)
  159. # [09:21] <erlehmann> of course, complaints of the form "my input isn't accepted" are expected
  160. # [09:21] <erlehmann> but i say: those who can't do markup shall abstain from (X)HTML
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  162. # [09:22] <phroggy> quite so.
  163. # [09:22] <phroggy> if I were to implement something like that from scratch myself without using anybody else's stuff, I would probably invent something like BBCode.
  164. # [09:23] <erlehmann> lotsa people use BB code. and it's crap.
  165. # [09:23] <phroggy> yes - if I had to do it myself, what I invented would most likely be crap.
  166. # [09:23] <erlehmann> like earlier versions of HTML, its purely presentational
  167. # [09:24] <phroggy> but BBCode is probably the direction I'd go.
  168. # [09:24] <erlehmann> BTW: where is the the XHTML5 DTD ? Hixie ?
  169. # [09:24] <phroggy> yes, that's because presentational markup is what users want.
  170. # [09:25] <phroggy> (well, it's what authors want when they're writing the code, not what users want when they're viewing the results.)
  171. # [09:25] <erlehmann> phroggy: do they ? if you press for it, users won't ever think "that's BOLD RED".
  172. # [09:25] <erlehmann> they say "it's all caps because it's IMPORTANT !!!!!111one1eleven"
  173. # [09:26] <phroggy> sure they will. If they're lazy they'll use caps, if they're less lazy they'll say "how can I make this bold and/or red?"
  174. # [09:26] <phroggy> not "how can I indicate that this has emphasis, which I can trust will be rendered appropriately later?"
  175. # [09:28] <erlehmann> then you do not press hard enough. or your users are retarded :þ
  176. # [09:28] <phroggy> most users are retarded, and they prefer it that way.
  177. # [09:29] <erlehmann> every one who complains about internet explorer rendering errors deserves a smacking.
  178. # [09:30] <erlehmann> likewise everyone who usese XHTML, but can't do well-formedness
  179. # [09:31] <phroggy> this is weird. Something is apparently broken at my ISP, but the only indication I have that there's a problem is, my IRC connection to irc.opera.com dropped and won't reconnect. A traceroute to that IP gets stuck in an infinite loop after the first hop past my LAN, but I haven't run into anything else similarly broken yet.
  180. # [09:32] <phroggy> never mind, it's fixed.
  181. # [09:34] <Hixie> erlehmann: there's no DTD for (X)HTML5
  182. # [09:35] <erlehmann> Hixie: a schema perhaps ? or will that come only in 2009, when the spec is finished ?
  183. # [09:36] <phroggy> that's because DTD is an SGML and XML thing, right? And HTML 5 is neither?
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  186. # [09:37] <othermaciej> XHTML5 is XML but does not use a DTD
  187. # [09:37] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  188. # [09:37] <othermaciej> DTD is optional for XML
  189. # [09:37] <erlehmann> well, how do i validate then ?
  190. # [09:38] <othermaciej> with an HTML5 validator
  191. # [09:38] <othermaciej> such as <http://validator.nu/>
  192. # [09:38] <erlehmann> i want to validate input is part of my app.
  193. # [09:38] <phroggy> othermaciej: I think what he's looking for is, how to write one?
  194. # [09:39] <erlehmann> phroggy: exactly. if there's none, i'll make one. modularized, like XHTML 1.1
  195. # [09:39] <othermaciej> ah, then the HTML5 spec says what a conformance checker is required to do
  196. # [09:39] <othermaciej> you can't implement correct HTML5 conformance checking with a DTD, unfortunately
  197. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> erlehmann: validator.nu has a REST API
  198. # [09:40] <othermaciej> at least, not solely with a DTD
  199. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_Common_Input_Parameters
  200. # [09:41] <othermaciej> other recent W3C markup languages are not defined by DTD either
  201. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_GNU_Output
  202. # [09:41] <othermaciej> for instance SVG 1.2 does not have a DTD
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  204. # [09:43] <othermaciej> nor does XForms 1.1
  205. # [09:44] <othermaciej> many people consider DTDs to be obsolete, or so I have heard
  206. # [09:44] <erlehmann> othermaciej: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.2/rng/
  207. # [09:44] <erlehmann> HURR DURR
  208. # [09:45] <othermaciej> that is a RelaxNG schema, not a DTD
  209. # [09:45] <phroggy> othermaciej: I suppose the obvious question is, if DTDs are obsolete, what replaces them?
  210. # [09:45] <othermaciej> phroggy: that would be beyond my personal expertise
  211. # [09:45] <phroggy> :-)
  212. # [09:45] <erlehmann> schemas
  213. # [09:46] <erlehmann> so where's the HTML5 schema ?
  214. # [09:46] <Hixie> erlehmann: if you want to validate HTML5, you write a schema, or some C++ code, or whatever, to validate HTML5, following the rules in HTML5, the same as if you want to write an HTML5 editor, or an HTML5 web browser, or whatever
  215. # [09:46] <Hixie> erlehmann: there is no official schema, and will never be one
  216. # [09:47] <erlehmann> " there [...] will never be one" WAIT, WHAT ? why would you do that ?
  217. # [09:47] <Hixie> do what?
  218. # [09:47] <Hixie> we're not writing code, we're writing a spec
  219. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> erlehmann: the RNC schema files that validator.nu uses are here: http://svn.versiondude.net/whattf/syntax/trunk/relaxng
  220. # [09:47] <erlehmann> not doing a formal, machine-readable specification ?
  221. # [09:47] <Hixie> because that's an implementation, not a specification
  222. # [09:48] <Hixie> implementors should be free to compete on writing their own implementations
  223. # [09:48] <Hixie> having an official implementation results in no competition, which results in poor quality implementations
  224. # [09:48] <phroggy> I thought a schema was a spec, just in a machine-readable form instead of a human-readable form?
  225. # [09:48] <erlehmann> phroggy: it is.
  226. # [09:48] <Hixie> just look at how the html4 validators never really competed -- the html5 validator is already better than anything we ever got for html4
  227. # [09:48] <Hixie> a schema is not a spec
  228. # [09:49] <erlehmann> wat
  229. # [09:49] <Hixie> it's an implementation of a spec for syntax checking
  230. # [09:49] <phroggy> hmm.
  231. # [09:49] <Hixie> we don't have any reference implementations
  232. # [09:49] <othermaciej> an implementation can be a spec
  233. # [09:49] * phroggy remains unconvinced
  234. # [09:49] <othermaciej> just not clear if that is desirable
  235. # [09:49] <othermaciej> (Hixie apparently thinks not)
  236. # [09:50] <Hixie> an implementation of something simple can be a spec, but for something as complicated as html, that's a non-starter
  237. # [09:50] <othermaciej> as an implementor I like it when certain parts of specs are in a formal machine-readable notation
  238. # [09:50] <othermaciej> like IDL or BNF grammars
  239. # [09:50] <othermaciej> schemas or DTDs, not especially helpful for content display
  240. # [09:50] <phroggy> a schema would say e.g. <input type="date" name="date"> is part of the specification, but not say how to render it - that would be an implementation detail.
  241. # [09:51] <erlehmann> Hixie: i disagree strongly and would like to add that a formal schema is the only way to distinguish correct markup from incorrect one.
  242. # [09:52] <phroggy> erlehmann: I would disagree that a machine-readable schema is the only way.
  243. # [09:52] <othermaciej> I think the biggest problem with using a schema to define markup syntax is that you end up limiting yourself to what the schema language can express
  244. # [09:52] <erlehmann> a schema isn't an implementition, a validator is.
  245. # [09:52] <phroggy> it may be the only way to do it without human involvement...
  246. # [09:53] <othermaciej> it can also make the spec very hard to read
  247. # [09:53] <phroggy> othermaciej: yes, that would be my assumption as to why there won't be one
  248. # [09:53] <othermaciej> for instance reading the SVG spec (either 1.1 or 1.2), it is really hard for me to tell what attributes any given element supports
  249. # [09:53] <phroggy> and yes, that's something that I always hated about trying to read anything about HTML at W3C
  250. # [09:53] <erlehmann> othermaciej: that's why XHTML 1.0 has an appendix
  251. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> erlehmann: as othermaciej mentions, there are some constraints in the spec that are not expressible in any schema language; for those cases, validator.nu uses custom code to check those constraints
  252. # [09:54] <phroggy> ^^ THAT is a legit reason for not having a schema
  253. # [09:54] <phroggy> :-)
  254. # [09:54] <othermaciej> you could define your spec as "schema + extra constraints"
  255. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> yeah
  256. # [09:54] <phroggy> erlehmann: your task now is to invent a schema language in which HTML 5 can be fully described.
  257. # [09:55] <othermaciej> but then validators end up being tempted to just use the schema and ignore the extra constraints
  258. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: right
  259. # [09:55] <erlehmann> phroggy: i'll try.
  260. # [09:55] <erlehmann> but as XML schema is XML, it's extensible.
  261. # [09:56] <erlehmann> MikeSmith: you work on validator.nu ? what exactly are those corner cases ?
  262. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> erlehmann: hsivonen alone made validator.nu
  263. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> for details about the other cases, see http://about.validator.nu/
  264. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> and they aren't just corner cases
  265. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> one thing is check the integrity of tables -- e.g., to make sure they have no overlapping cells
  266. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/table-integrity-checker/
  267. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> erlehmann: also http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/html5-conformance-checker.xhtml
  268. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/html5-conformance-checker.xhtml#non-schema
  269. # [10:00] <Hixie> using a schema language to express a specification requires adding another specification, written in english, to specify the schema language
  270. # [10:00] <Hixie> it just adds a level of indirection, massively increasing the overall complexity
  271. # [10:01] <othermaciej> or you could do like programming language weenies do, and define the schema language in itself
  272. # [10:01] <Hixie> then how do you know what any of it means?
  273. # [10:01] <phroggy> random guessing. :-)
  274. # [10:02] <hsivonen> erlehmann: html5.validator.nu uses RELAX NG for the easy stuff, a custom RELAX NG library and custom Java code
  275. # [10:02] <othermaciej> close your eyes and hope the axiom of foundation goes away?
  276. # [10:02] <erlehmann> Hixie: RELAX NG is already specified.
  277. # [10:02] <Hixie> but ok, that solves the problem quite nearly... let me define a schema language that can be used to express both all the rules of html5 and all the rules of its own schema language
  278. # [10:02] * othermaciej wonders if he finally made a joke too nerdy for anyone on the channel to get
  279. # [10:02] <erlehmann> if it's XML, possible
  280. # [10:02] <erlehmann> othermaciej: bad joke.
  281. # [10:03] <hsivonen> erlehmann: schema languages aren't expressive enough to capture the conformance criteria of HTML5
  282. # [10:03] <Hixie> this schema language has files that are exactly one bit long. If the bit is a 0, then it defines the schema of the schema language. if the bit is a 1, it defines the schema of html5.
  283. # [10:03] <Hixie> i now present you the complete schema for html5: 0x01.
  284. # [10:03] * weinig is now known as weinig|zZz
  285. # [10:03] <hsivonen> DTDs weren't expressive enough for HTML4, and the result was that validators stopped at whatever the official DTD said instead of improving
  286. # [10:03] <Hixie> erlehmann: relax ng isn't powerful enough to express html5's validation requirements.
  287. # [10:04] <erlehmann> hsivonen, Hixie: so where are the problems ?
  288. # [10:04] <Hixie> erlehmann: e.g. table integrity in html5
  289. # [10:05] <erlehmann> D:
  290. # [10:06] <othermaciej> Hixie: awesome, now I just have to write a processor for Hixie Schema Language
  291. # [10:06] <erlehmann> HSL is the future !
  292. # [10:06] <Hixie> i suppose i should define error handling for my schema language
  293. # [10:07] <Hixie> if the file is shorter than 1 bit, then the user agent must report a fatal error
  294. # [10:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I didn't make Validator.nu alone. fantasai started the schemas and there are lots of 3rd-party libs.
  295. # [10:07] <Hixie> if the file is longer than 1 bit, it must ignore all bits after the first one
  296. # [10:07] <zcorpan_> Hixie: doesn't the 0x00 schema define error handling?
  297. # [10:08] <Hixie> zcorpan_: no this schema language only defines validaity of input streams against schemas
  298. # [10:08] <othermaciej> I though schemata by their nature only define correct syntax, not erro rhandling
  299. # [10:08] <Hixie> zcorpan_: it doesn't define UA behaviour
  300. # [10:08] <othermaciej> *error
  301. # [10:08] <zcorpan_> Hixie: ah
  302. # [10:08] <hsivonen> erlehmann: RELAX NG sucks for ancestor-descendant constraints
  303. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: point taken
  304. # [10:08] <Hixie> othermaciej: right, but a schema language spec still has to define what to do with schemas that aren't themselves conforming
  305. # [10:08] <hsivonen> erlehmann: RELAX NG simply can't express table integrity 2D grid constraints
  306. # [10:08] <erlehmann> hsivonen: like <x> can or cannot be inside <y> ?
  307. # [10:08] <erlehmann> oh, bummer.
  308. # [10:09] <hsivonen> erlehmann: like <x> cannot be a descendant of <y> (with possibly <z> in between)
  309. # [10:10] <hsivonen> erlehmann: RELAX NG can express that, but it's extremely inconvenient
  310. # [10:10] <othermaciej> seems to me the question of validating against an invalid schema is ill-posed, but fair enough
  311. # [10:10] <hsivonen> erlehmann: to the point that it's just not worth it trying to express it in RELAX NG
  312. # [10:10] <hsivonen> erlehmann: it can be expressed in Schematron, though
  313. # [10:10] <hsivonen> but Schematron performance sucks
  314. # [10:11] <erlehmann> hsivonen: maybe one could generate that schema with XSL (chuckle) :D
  315. # [10:11] <hsivonen> so I optimized it away in Java
  316. # [10:11] <Hixie> othermaciej: how so?
  317. # [10:11] <othermaciej> well let's say validation is a function from ordered pairs (S, D) of a schema and a document to the set { true, false}
  318. # [10:12] <Hixie> othermaciej: if people are expected to use schemas with different implementations of the schema language, you can easily end up with people making mistakes and finding that different implementations handle those mistakes differently, if you don't define hwo to handle the mistakes
  319. # [10:12] <hsivonen> (Making Schematron performance not suck is a much harder implementation problem than making a naïve Schematron validator)
  320. # [10:13] <othermaciej> one would assume that if validate(M, S) == false where M is the metaschema (the schema for the sechema language) then vaidate(S, D) == false for any D
  321. # [10:13] <othermaciej> though I suppose one can define otherwise
  322. # [10:13] <erlehmann> away with that linguist jokery !
  323. # [10:14] <Hixie> erlehmann: seriously though, the main reason we don't, and won't, have a schema is that in html4, having a schema caused the market to not innovate in the validation space, something which has almsot certainly contributed to the great mess that is html on the web
  324. # [10:14] <hsivonen> erlehmann: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/html5-conformance-checker#incorrect-rng-expectations
  325. # [10:14] <Hixie> erlehmann: with html5, not having a schema has caused at least one person (hsivonen) to actually focus on writing a better conformance checker
  326. # [10:14] <Hixie> erlehmann: and i expect there to be more over the years (including myself, hopefully)
  327. # [10:15] <erlehmann> Hixie: i though the problem was that UAs accepted HURR DURR braindead markup
  328. # [10:15] <hsivonen> erlehmann: that's a feature!
  329. # [10:15] <erlehmann> hsivonen: tag soup apologist !
  330. # [10:16] <Hixie> othermaciej: one might well assume that, but i expect implementations will fail to catch all such errors (in the same way that html UAs in the early days didn't look for errors)
  331. # [10:16] <Hixie> erlehmann: there are many contributing factors
  332. # [10:16] <othermaciej> s/apologist/enthusiast/
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  438. # [12:51] <phroggy> other than onsearch, is there any other JavaScript event that fires every time the contents of a text field are modified without blurring?
  439. # [12:51] <phroggy> including using the mouse to paste/cut/clear from the Edit menu.
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  442. # [13:00] <Hixie> phroggy: oninput
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  445. # [13:11] <hsivonen> whoa. the tokenizer has a lot of fields
  446. # [13:12] <hsivonen> 52 (non-static) fields
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  450. # [13:22] <phroggy> Hixie: alright, why do onsearch and incremental exist if we have oninput?
  451. # [13:23] <phroggy> is it because oninput didn't exist at the time?
  452. # [13:28] * olliej is now known as fakeolliej
  453. # [13:28] <phroggy> hmm, I notice a slight difference in behavior.
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  457. # [13:47] * phroggy submits a recommendation for <input type="search">, and finds that's a much harder case to argue than for placeholder support
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  468. # [15:11] <BenMillard> gsnedders, using the Audi R8 (Le mans prototype, not road car) with Medium tyres in Arcade Time Attack mode, I did a 6:10.819, pitted (tyres only), then a 5:47.665
  469. # [15:11] <BenMillard> so I'm guessing you used a different R8 or Super Hard tyres or just had a lot of crashes
  470. # [15:12] * BenMillard hopes gsnedders reads the log.
  471. # [15:12] <erlehmann> BenMillard: this isn't CARWG
  472. # [15:13] <erlehmann> or was this a complex car analogy ?
  473. # [15:13] <BenMillard> I'm meeting him at W3C TPAC 2008
  474. # [15:13] <annevk2> erlehmann, please see the topic :)
  475. # [15:13] <erlehmann> "Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!"
  476. # [15:20] <Philip`> It is illogical to discuss off-topic issues such as racing games in a technical HTML channel, but the channel doesn't care much for logic and therefore it is perfectly on-topic and acceptable
  477. # [15:21] <annevk2> that statement violates the topic :p
  478. # [15:21] <BenMillard> we'll be playing the game at times during the TPAC, so we're figuring out each other's pace so we can spend more time having fun games and less times balancing the gameplay, therefore we'll be happier and more productive during the meeting time
  479. # [15:22] <Philip`> annevk2: How so? My statement was quite illogical
  480. # [15:23] <Philip`> BenMillard: You should just play Mario Kart instead, so if one of you is a worse player then they'll get all the red and blue shells and can easily catch up
  481. # [15:25] <BenMillard> Philip`, strangely enough I don't find Mario Kart to be quite as deeply engaging as Gran Turismo 4 :)
  482. # [15:27] <Philip`> BenMillard: Sure, but you can push Princess Peach into the path of a giant pinball, so it's clearly a better game
  483. # [15:28] <BenMillard> Philip`, then our tastes differ...and speaking of which, I'm off for lunch!
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  492. # [15:59] * virtuelv completely sucks at Mario Kart WII
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  502. # [17:02] <annevk2> zcorpan, on http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements you need a space between spaces and title on <link>
  503. # [17:02] <gsnedders> jgraham: thx
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  514. # [17:43] <gsnedders> BenMillard: (if you see this), I think I was on SSH, and crashed a fair bit too.
  515. # [17:44] <gsnedders> But hey, it was my first two laps on GT4 in a year
  516. # [17:45] <gsnedders> Probably only Hard, actually
  517. # [17:45] <gsnedders> s/SSH/RSH/
  518. # [17:46] <gsnedders> I also think it wasn't crashing that much, it was just really big crashes
  519. # [17:46] <gsnedders> or just going off on a long straight costing me a lot of time
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  521. # [17:55] <Philip`> How many pedestrians and/or zombies did you crush?
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  524. # [18:09] <gsnedders> Down to 6:10.704
  525. # [18:09] <gsnedders> Yeah, I can probably match your time given a week to get back in practice
  526. # [18:10] <gsnedders> Philip`: There are pedestrians and/or zombies in GT4?
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  530. # [18:16] <Philip`> gsnedders: There should be
  531. # [18:17] <gsnedders> "All bright kids are depraved."
  532. # [18:17] <Philip`> gsnedders: Also, the cars should have giant meat grinders mounted to the front
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  534. # [18:18] <Philip`> (U2XMP did - it was great fun to fire the rocket boosters and leap over the top of a hill and hit a jumping enemy player and cause them to explode gratifyingly)
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  537. # [18:40] <hsivonen> http://www.symphonious.net/2008/10/01/why-do-we-have-same-host-restrictions/
  538. # [18:42] <Philip`> Looking in IRC logs: http://gender.twitmarks.com/g.php?username=whatwg links to http://twitter.com/home?status=... - does that automatically change your Twitter status, or does it have an extra confirmation step to prevent the totally obvious CSRF attack?
  539. # [18:43] * MikeSmith is away: Less talk, more pimp walk.
  540. # [18:43] <Philip`> hsivonen: Are you planning to reply to that?
  541. # [18:43] <hsivonen> Philip`: yes
  542. # [18:45] * Philip` guess that `with (new XMLHttpRequest()) { open('POST', 'http://192.168.0.1/update_firewall_settings'); send(...) }` is one of the more obvious problems
  543. # [18:46] <hsivonen> Philip`: feel free to add more concrete threats
  544. # [18:48] <hasather> Philip`: that just sets the text in the textarea, it doesn't submit anything
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  546. # [18:49] <Philip`> hasather: Ah, good
  547. # [18:50] <Philip`> (though of course you could load that page with the prefilled textarea into an iframe and then hide everything except the submit button, and trick someone into clicking on it, but hopefully nobody would be so cruel)
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  555. # [19:50] <Philip`> phroggy: Saying "Nobody uses that" (on <isindex>) is dangerous, since people do use it :-)
  556. # [19:51] <Philip`> e.g. http://www.oasislasvegasrvresort.com/ (which oddly doesn't work in Opera)
  557. # [19:51] <Philip`> and http://www.sdsc.edu/~hutton/cgi-bin/tracert.cgi
  558. # [19:51] <Philip`> and I only had to search through a hundred thousand pages to find those
  559. # [19:51] <phroggy> alright
  560. # [19:51] <Philip`> Oh, and http://www.ijs.si/cgi-bin/rac-slovar
  561. # [19:53] <phroggy> I stand corrected.
  562. # [19:54] <Philip`> It's as common as the <centr> and <fontcolor=red> and <nyt_links_onsite> tags, in my set of pages
  563. # [19:57] <phroggy> as I said, it could be resurrected, but I don't see a compelling reason to do so.
  564. # [19:57] <phroggy> particularly because it's not a form element, and it's often useful for a search form to have other fields.
  565. # [19:58] <Philip`> I'm not disagreeing with your conclusions at all :-)
  566. # [19:58] <Philip`> <isindex> is not a feature I would want to encourage
  567. # [19:58] <phroggy> :-)
  568. # [19:58] <Philip`> because it's, like, totally crazy
  569. # [19:59] <phroggy> hehe
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  571. # [19:59] <phroggy> indeed. I was unfamiliar with it until it was mentioned on the list and I looked it up. I suspect I was deliberately unfamiliar with it.
  572. # [20:00] <phroggy> one of those things I've seen before, but after glancing at, chose to ignore.
  573. # [20:01] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-177-25.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  574. # [20:01] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cbody%20onload%3Ddocument.body.appendChild(document.createElement('isindex'))%3E%0A%3Cisindex%3E
  575. # [20:02] <Philip`> Hooray for interoperability
  576. # [20:03] <phroggy> uh, wait, what?
  577. # [20:03] <Philip`> IE and Opera show one labelled box; Safari shows one labelled and one unlabelled; Firefox shows two labelled
  578. # [20:03] <phroggy> ah..
  579. # [20:03] <phroggy> I understand Safari's behavior...
  580. # [20:04] <phroggy> actually, no, I think I understand Firefox's behavior better.
  581. # [20:04] <Philip`> Firefox puts ISINDEX in the DOM, Opera puts ISINDEX containing text and HRs and stuff, Safari puts DIV containing text stuff and a ISINDEX type="khtml_isindex", IE did something different but it's crashed now and I can't be bothered to restart it
  582. # [20:04] <phroggy> fabulous.
  583. # [20:04] <phroggy> yeah, let's not support this tag.
  584. # [20:04] <phroggy> heh
  585. # [20:05] <Philip`> Well, we have to support it, because people still use it
  586. # [20:07] * Philip` goes home
  587. # [20:07] <phroggy> browser developers have to support it, but HTML 5 doesn't.
  588. # [20:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: do people really insert it via the DOM and expect it to work?
  589. # [20:14] <phroggy> I'd guess many of the people using <isindex> began doing so before JavaScript existed...
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  592. # [21:01] <Philip`> hsivonen: I really hope not
  593. # [21:02] <Philip`> and given how few people use it statically, and most of those seem to be ancient sites, I wouldn't expect anyone to ever insert one dynamically
  594. # [21:06] <Philip`> phroggy: HTML 5 is aiming to specify everything that browser developers need to support, so it has to support isindex in that sense (though it doesn't have to allow authors to ever use it, but I'm not sure whether that's what you mean)
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  602. # [21:54] <Hixie> phroggy: onsearch and incremental don't exist in html5, only oninput
  603. # [21:55] <phroggy> Hixie: could they?
  604. # [21:55] <Hixie> why would they need to?
  605. # [21:56] <phroggy> why did Apple implement them?
  606. # [21:57] <Hixie> same reason we added oninput to the spec, i would posit
  607. # [21:58] <phroggy> did Apple implement onsearch before oninput existed?
  608. # [21:58] <Hixie> around the same time iirc
  609. # [21:59] <phroggy> onsearch (with incremental) has the advantage that it includes a built-in delay, so that doesn't have to be simulated (which is somewhat annoying to do well)
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  611. # [22:02] <Hixie> oninput does too
  612. # [22:02] <phroggy> not according to my testing...
  613. # [22:02] <phroggy> it looks to me like oninput fires on every single keystroke
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  615. # [22:03] <Hixie> that's an allowed implementation strategy (the delay is 0), but a delay is allowed
  616. # [22:07] <phroggy> hm.
  617. # [22:08] <phroggy> can I specify whether there should be a delay or not, or is that entirely up to the browser?
  618. # [22:09] <Hixie> browser
  619. # [22:09] <phroggy> there are times when I want something to fire on every keypress, and times when I want a delay.
  620. # [22:09] <gavin> do any browsers implement a delay?
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  622. # [22:09] <phroggy> not that I saw.
  623. # [22:09] <gavin> seems to me like that might break a lot of pages
  624. # [22:10] <phroggy> indeed.
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  626. # [22:12] <Hixie> why?
  627. # [22:12] <phroggy> if they expect it to fire on every keypress and it doesn't...
  628. # [22:12] <Hixie> how would it break them?
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  630. # [22:12] <Hixie> they'd already be broken with copy and paste, presumably
  631. # [22:12] <Hixie> and drag and drop
  632. # [22:13] <Hixie> and IME
  633. # [22:13] <Hixie> and anything else taht doesn't have a 1:1 keypress -> input mapping
  634. # [22:13] <Hixie> incidentally the print versions of the spec are no longer being generated reliably, the document is so big that the PDF generator gets killed by the kernel
  635. # [22:14] <phroggy> let's see... how about a character count for a textarea; if you're a fast typist, it won't update while you're typing.
  636. # [22:14] <Hixie> if anyone wants to provide a web service that generates them, i can hook things up to them, but in the meantime, we have no print version
  637. # [22:14] <Hixie> phroggy: so? it'll update as soon as you stop typing, why isn't that ok?
  638. # [22:15] <phroggy> it's not expected behavior, it's not desirable behavior, it's not current behavior.
  639. # [22:15] <Hixie> seems like fine behaviour to me
  640. # [22:16] <phroggy> maybe not the best example, but the only one I could think of off the top of my head.
  641. # [22:16] <phroggy> there's other crazy JS stuff that manipulates your text while you type it...
  642. # [22:16] <phroggy> firing after a delay wouldn't necessarily "break" anything, but it's not always desirable behavior.
  643. # [22:17] <Hixie> seems like it's much better to fire any of those behaviorus after a delay rather than slow down the typing with computation on every keypress
  644. # [22:17] <phroggy> it is desirable when you're doing an AJAX query, or anything that requires massive processing.
  645. # [22:17] <phroggy> but if the processing required is minimal, it won't slow down the typing.
  646. # [22:18] <phroggy> e.g. updating a character count won't slow anything down.
  647. # [22:18] <Hixie> the UA can scale the delay based on how long the processing takes
  648. # [22:20] <phroggy> hmm, I'm not sure how that would work....
  649. # [22:21] <phroggy> how is the UA supposed to know how long the processing will take, before doing the processing?
  650. # [22:22] <Hixie> do the processing once, time it
  651. # [22:23] <Hixie> jesus christ, these type=search and placeholder= threads have gotten huge
  652. # [22:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: Bigger is better.
  653. # [22:24] <Hixie> no, no it's not
  654. # [22:24] <gsnedders> But HTML 5 is big!
  655. # [22:25] <gsnedders> mmm… "Will you attend the reception on the evening of 22 October?"
  656. # [22:25] <jcranmer> Hixie: there's a thread on c.l.j.p that's a few K large
  657. # [22:25] <jcranmer> dominated by "shut up"\"no, you shut up" posts
  658. # [22:26] <gsnedders> Who actually goes to that?
  659. # [22:26] <Hixie> jcranmer: key difference being that i don't have to reply to all those e-mails
  660. # [22:26] <phroggy> Hixie: the processing isn't guaranteed to take the same amount of time for every execution, particularly since the value of the field the processing is probably being done on is (by definition) changing each time.
  661. # [22:26] <phroggy> (with some exceptions)
  662. # [22:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: You going to that?
  663. # [22:27] * gsnedders has no idea
  664. # [22:27] * gsnedders is n00b
  665. # [22:27] <Hixie> phroggy: sure, the UA can just scale the timeout based on how long recent calls have taken
  666. # [22:27] <jcranmer> Hixie: hell hath no fury like a web developer whose idea isn't implemented
  667. # [22:27] <Hixie> gsnedders: isn't that the AC thing?
  668. # [22:28] <gsnedders> Hixie: "This reception is open to W3C WG/IG/Incubator participants in good standing, AC reps, AB, TAG, Offices staff and Team."
  669. # [22:28] <Hixie> ah
  670. # [22:28] <gsnedders> i.e., no./
  671. # [22:29] <gsnedders> s#/##
  672. # [22:29] <Hixie> no idea
  673. # [22:29] <Hixie> probably yes
  674. # [22:29] <gsnedders> It's one of the things on the registration form
  675. # [22:29] <gsnedders> Which I thought I probably better fill up now :)
  676. # [22:29] <Hixie> i don't pay much attention to the registration form :-)
  677. # [22:30] * gsnedders wonders whether to observe PFWG
  678. # [22:32] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@63.116.113.44)
  679. # [22:34] <eric_carlson> Hixie: should a media element fire event(s) when it's document becomes inactive?
  680. # [22:34] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  681. # [22:34] <eric_carlson> Hixie: section 4.8.10.7 says "If the media element's owner Document stops being an active document, then the playback will stop until the document is active again"
  682. # [22:34] <eric_carlson> Hixie: but the section on media playback doesn't mention this case
  683. # [22:35] <Hixie> the word "Stop" links to the normative conformance criteria that defines that case
  684. # [22:36] <eric_carlson> reading it again...
  685. # [22:37] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  686. # [22:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: If you want, I can be beside you when you move to Anolis :P
  687. # [22:37] <Hixie> did the spec compliane issue get fixed?
  688. # [22:38] <gsnedders> Hixie: That's a bug in libxml2's serializer. Using html5lib it is fine
  689. # [22:39] <Hixie> well I need something that is fast and compliant
  690. # [22:39] <Hixie> (specifically, I need something that is fast, and the W3C needs something that is compliant)
  691. # [22:39] <gsnedders> Hopefully if I put it on my server it'll be quicker, and still reasonable using html5lib
  692. # [22:39] <annevk2> hmm, what goes wrong with libxml2 ?
  693. # [22:40] <Hixie> libxml2 presumably can't parse html to save its life
  694. # [22:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: It has an HTML mode which works kinda well
  695. # [22:40] <Hixie> apparently not
  696. # [22:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: The parsing works fine for HTML 5, the serializing doesn't
  697. # [22:40] <gsnedders> annevk2: http://html5.validator.nu/?=&doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org%2Fspecs%2Fweb-apps%2Fcurrent-work%2Findex-new
  698. # [22:41] <hsivonen> gsnedders: does serialization have the problems Julian raised about XSLT?
  699. # [22:41] <Hixie> you sure it's the serialisation that goes wrong? i thought it was the parsing.
  700. # [22:41] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Like losing the DTD, or what?
  701. # [22:42] <gsnedders> Hixie: No, it works fine if you use the parser and html5lib's serializer, IIRC
  702. # [22:42] <Hixie> i don't understand how the serialiser can have the bug i saw
  703. # [22:42] <Hixie> but ok
  704. # [22:42] <gsnedders> Hixie: What bug?
  705. # [22:42] <Hixie> the conformance issue
  706. # [22:42] <gsnedders> Hixie: That's a serializer issue, I'm pretty sure
  707. # [22:43] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I meant void elements
  708. # [22:43] <Hixie> the <dt> thing?
  709. # [22:43] <hsivonen> how can the dt thing happen?
  710. # [22:45] <eric_carlson> Hixie: I must be thick today, but I don't see which part describes what to do for the case of a document becoming inactive.
  711. # [22:45] * gsnedders tries with lxml parser and html5lib serializer
  712. # [22:46] <hsivonen> what's the relationship of the backplane XG and PFWG?
  713. # [22:46] <hsivonen> is backplane ARIA-relevant?
  714. # [22:46] <gsnedders> the </dt> is the only issue with lxml's parser
  715. # [22:46] <Hixie> eric_carlson: "When a media element is actively playing and its owner Document is an active document, its current playback position must increase monotonically at playbackRate units of media time per unit time of wall clock time." is the only thing that actually makes the media "move" in time
  716. # [22:47] <Hixie> gsnedders: so it _is_ a parser issue?
  717. # [22:47] <gsnedders> That appears to be
  718. # [22:47] <Hixie> ok
  719. # [22:47] <eric_carlson> Hixie: Got that.
  720. # [22:47] <gsnedders> I think if we have a quick enough server html5lib shouldn't be that much of an issue
  721. # [22:47] <Hixie> eric_carlson: so where's the problem?
  722. # [22:48] <gsnedders> It should still be quicker than the CSS3 Module Postprocessor
  723. # [22:48] <Hixie> gsnedders: agreed. do we? even libxml2 was to slow when anne put it on his server
  724. # [22:48] <annevk2> maybe we can use validator.nu to serialize to XML first :)
  725. # [22:48] <eric_carlson> Hixie: my question is should fire an event when it stops playing because the document becomes inactive.
  726. # [22:48] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'll try setting it up on gsnedders.com this weekend
  727. # [22:49] <eric_carlson> Hixie: eg. as it does when pausing for user interaction, or because it runs out of data.
  728. # [22:49] <Hixie> eric_carlson: it's still "actively playing", so no. i mean, the spec doesn't say it should, right?
  729. # [22:49] <gsnedders> http://html5.validator.nu/?=&doc=http%3A%2F%2Fstuff.gsnedders.com%2Fspec-gen%2Fhtml5.html — that's an html5lib copy
  730. # [22:50] <Hixie> gsnedders: it was the w3c version that was causing me issues iirc
  731. # [22:50] <Hixie> header-w3c + source
  732. # [22:52] <eric_carlson> Hixie: are you saying that a media element that was playing continues to be "actively playing" when its owner document becomes inactive??
  733. # [22:53] <eric_carlson> Hixie: even though it must stop playback
  734. # [22:53] * annevk2 though there was agreement to add placeholder already
  735. # [22:54] <Hixie> eric_carlson: yes, the term "actively playing" doesn't mean it's, ah, actively playing, it means whatever the term is defined to mean. The condition that causes the playback to actually advice is when a media element is "actively playing and its owner Document is an active document", as per the quoted text above
  736. # [22:54] <Hixie> "A media element is said to be actively playing when its paused attribute is false, the readyState attribute is either CAN_PLAY or CAN_PLAY_THROUGH, the element has not ended playback, playback has not stopped due to errors, and the element has not paused for user interaction."
  737. # [22:54] <Hixie> nothing in that definition says it's actually playing
  738. # [22:55] <eric_carlson> Hixie: ah "actively playing != "actually playing" :)
  739. # [22:56] <eric_carlson> Hixie: so it stops playing but no other state changes so no events are fired.
  740. # [22:56] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  741. # [22:57] <Hixie> eric_carlson: right
  742. # [23:00] <eric_carlson> Hixie: Thanks. Now that I understand what you mean I get it, but "actively playing" is a confusing state because "playing" means something very specific for media (to me anyway).
  743. # [23:01] <eric_carlson> Hixie: not that I have anything better to suggest just yet.
  744. # [23:01] <Hixie> eric_carlson: yeah there's a lot of places in the spec where because of the way the text evolved, some of the terms used are poorly named
  745. # [23:02] <Hixie> eric_carlson: feel free to mail the list asking for terms to be renamed if you come across any (like this one) that are confusing
  746. # [23:02] <eric_carlson> Hixie: will do.
  747. # [23:02] <Hixie> eric_carlson: maybe "potentially playing" or "playing-enabled" or something would work here
  748. # [23:05] <eric_carlson> Hixie: "playable" ?
  749. # [23:06] * Joins: erlehmann (n=nils@dslb-092-078-108-145.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  750. # [23:15] <Hixie> that would probably be ok too
  751. # [23:16] * Joins: hallvors (n=hallvord@cm-84.208.78.204.getinternet.no)
  752. # [23:25] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.202.33.235)
  753. # [23:28] <gsnedders> Hixie: http://html5.validator.nu/?=&doc=http%3A%2F%2Fstuff.gsnedders.com%2Fspec-gen%2Fhtml5.w3c.html
  754. # [23:30] * Quits: Maurice (n=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  755. # [23:31] * Joins: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  756. # [23:31] <gsnedders> BenMillard: I should be able to get to around your time in the next week
  757. # [23:31] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-a7a73d68ec0c9d7b)
  758. # [23:31] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Whether I'll be able to drive anywhere else in any other car will be interesting, though :)
  759. # [23:32] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  760. # [23:34] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@80.76.201.52) (Remote closed the connection)
  761. # [23:34] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-90bdbdc07988b36e)
  762. # [23:37] <Hixie> gsnedders: cool
  763. # [23:37] <annevk2> gsnedders, is that with html5lib?
  764. # [23:38] <annevk2> I can turn html5lib on on anolis.quuz.org, but I fear for awful performance
  765. # [23:38] <Hixie> http://html5.validator.nu/?=&doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org%2Fspecs%2Fweb-apps%2Fcurrent-work%2Findex-new is what i get today
  766. # [23:39] <Hixie> http://html5.validator.nu/?=&doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org%2Fspecs%2Fweb-apps%2Fcurrent-work%2F.w3c-new%2FOverview.html for the w3c version
  767. # [23:39] <annevk2> yeah, I agree that that's not good
  768. # [23:41] <Hixie> and that took 73 seconds to generate
  769. # [23:41] <Hixie> which is about 72 seconds more than i'd like
  770. # [23:41] <Hixie> :-)
  771. # [23:41] <annevk2> for EUR 100 a month I might be able to arrange something quicker :)
  772. # [23:41] <Hixie> :-)
  773. # [23:42] <Hixie> for 100 EUR a month, i'd have a new computer :-)
  774. # [23:44] <annevk2> it already takes like five seconds just to get the frontpage
  775. # [23:44] <Hixie> heycam: re svg and evt/event, my personal preference would be dropping <handler> altogether...
  776. # [23:44] <Hixie> hm?
  777. # [23:44] <annevk2> of anolis.quuz.org
  778. # [23:44] <Hixie> wow, yes
  779. # [23:44] <Hixie> why does it take so long
  780. # [23:45] <BenMillard> gsnedders, slow down and go faster. :)
  781. # [23:45] <annevk2> no idea
  782. # [23:45] <annevk2> it's the way python is installed I think, annevankesteren.nl responds quickly
  783. # [23:45] <Philip`> Is it Python CGI and loading a zillion modules just to render the front page?
  784. # [23:45] <annevk2> (though runs on PHP)
  785. # [23:46] <annevk2> Philip`, pretty much
  786. # [23:46] <Philip`> annevk2: I'd guess that might be the problem, then :-)
  787. # [23:49] <annevk2> <input> is such a mess it's almost nice
  788. # [23:51] <Hixie> hm?
  789. # [23:51] <Hixie> annevk2: i recommend running a profiler and fixing the bugs :-)
  790. # [23:51] <Hixie> (that make it slow)
  791. # [23:52] <Hixie> the front page of that site shouldn't need any scripting at all as far as i can tell
  792. # [23:52] * Quits: smerp (n=smerp@66.192.95.199) ("Jesus Built My Workstation")
  793. # [23:55] <annevk2> Hixie, the processor and frontpage is a single file
  794. # [23:55] <Hixie> ah
  795. # [23:55] <Hixie> well then
  796. # [23:55] <annevk2> Hixie, I should look into FastCGI or something though
  797. # [23:55] <Hixie> you definitely need to optimise something :-)
  798. # [23:55] <Hixie> what on earth is it doing that takes five seconds?
  799. # [23:55] <Hixie> that's just silly
  800. # [23:56] <annevk2> ask Guido? :p
  801. # [23:56] <Hixie> emacs loads in less than five seconds
  802. # [23:56] <Hixie> i'm thinking he would say the script was badly written :-)
  803. # [23:56] <gsnedders> It was the first large thing I ever wrote in Python
  804. # [23:56] <gsnedders> Where large = > 10 lines
  805. # [23:58] <Hixie> that's one more than i've ever written :-)
  806. # [23:59] <gsnedders> :P
  807. # Session Close: Wed Oct 01 00:00:00 2008

The end :)