/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-10-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 01 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <jgraham> Would it help if I tried setting up anolis on hoppipolla.co.uk (running on web faction)? Might be easier to get a more complex setup working there since they are selling themselves on being designed for python
  4. # [00:03] <gsnedders> jgraham: If you want to try, sure
  5. # [00:03] <phroggy> http://phroggy.com/ is something like 3,000 lines of perl (I kept adding features every time I got bored, for YEARS) and it executes fast enough that you don't really notice it, especially after waiting for all the graphics to load.
  6. # [00:03] * jgraham finally has some time since he has finished moving out of his house
  7. # [00:04] <Philip`> phroggy: Using mod_perl?
  8. # [00:04] <phroggy> nope.
  9. # [00:05] <phroggy> not even FastCGI, just plain old regular CGI.
  10. # [00:05] <jgraham> where is the source to anolis.quuz.org?
  11. # [00:05] <Philip`> phroggy: Ah, okay
  12. # [00:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: /source
  13. # [00:06] <phroggy> wc -l *.pm says 3156 total
  14. # [00:06] <jgraham> Ah, I tried /src/ /src /source/ but not /source
  15. # [00:06] <phroggy> for... good lord, 15 modules
  16. # [00:07] <phroggy> 5 of which are object classes
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  21. # [00:25] <hallvors> load https://www.vyke.com/js/common.js and search for "zzz". :-p
  22. # [00:26] <hallvors> I particularly like the exclamation mark
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  30. # [01:11] <jgraham> hixiehttp://anolis.hoppipolla.co.uk/
  31. # [01:11] <jgraham> Er, let's try that again
  32. # [01:11] <jgraham> Hixie, gsnedders: http://anolis.hoppipolla.co.uk/
  33. # [01:12] <jgraham> That domain name is not stable
  34. # [01:12] <jgraham> (i.e. I might change it later)
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  55. # [02:30] <Lachy> Hi everyone
  56. # [02:31] <Hixie> hey
  57. # [02:32] <Lachy> it's good to be able to have internet again, anything interesting happen with the spec over the past week?
  58. # [02:33] <Lachy> oh crap, my whatwg and public-html folders are up to 800 unread emails :-(
  59. # [02:33] <Hixie> hah
  60. # [02:34] <Hixie> jgraham: shoul i see something at http://anolis.hoppipolla.co.uk/ ?
  61. # [02:35] <Hixie> http://anolis.hoppipolla.co.uk/?url=http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/source-whatwg seems very slow
  62. # [02:35] <Lachy> I'm officially on holidays this week, so I should have time to catch up. The conference was quite good last week
  63. # [02:35] <Hixie> which conference?
  64. # [02:36] <Lachy> Web Directions South
  65. # [02:36] <Hixie> ah
  66. # [02:36] <Lachy> the one I came to Australia for
  67. # [02:36] <Hixie> right
  68. # [02:37] <Hixie> any interesting things happen there?
  69. # [02:37] <Lachy> MikeSmith's HTML5 presentation was quite good
  70. # [02:38] <Lachy> annevk2, I recorded 2 more episodes for standards suck
  71. # [02:38] <Lachy> I'll send them to marcos soon
  72. # [02:40] <llimllib> Am I correct reading the spec that there's no way to query a canvas for its transformation matrix?
  73. # [02:40] <Hixie> yes
  74. # [02:41] <llimllib> thanks, making sure before I go try and maintain that info myself
  75. # [02:48] <llimllib> I think it would be cool if HTML 5 had a texpath() method like nodebox's ( http://nodebox.net/code/index.php/Reference_|_textpath() ), and I've implemented a Java applet that does text rendering and will let me play with hypothetical APIs for it ( http://github.com/llimllib/javatext ). Is this a thing that could hypothetically make the spec someday? Is there any interest in such a thing?
  76. # [02:49] <Hixie> yeah there's a plan to eventually have path objects
  77. # [02:49] <llimllib> nice
  78. # [02:49] <Hixie> once we have that we'll be able to render text on path objects and convert the result to path objects, etc
  79. # [02:49] <llimllib> I implemented it because I've got half of a nodebox reimplementation in javascript, and I need textpath()
  80. # [02:50] <Hixie> cool
  81. # [02:50] <takkaria> I genuinely don't understand chaal's belief that if you want to extract SVG from HTML you might not need an HTML parser, or that the SVG WG's proposal would be better than the commented-out one for implementation...
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  83. # [02:53] <llimllib> where should I go to find what's already been written about path objects?
  84. # [02:54] <llimllib> I'd like to catch myself up, if possible
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  86. # [02:55] <othermaciej> takkaria: his claim that Opera's core engine team thinks the SVG WG proposal is easier to implement kinda makes me want to get independent verification
  87. # [02:55] <Philip`> I'm not aware of anything that has been written, other than people saying the phrase "path objects" sound like a good idea
  88. # [02:56] <llimllib> fair enough
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  90. # [02:58] <othermaciej> I think text on a path is best added to CSS
  91. # [02:58] <othermaciej> you shouldn't be forced to make your text impossible to select, copy, or search just to make it flow along a path
  92. # [02:59] <llimllib> My interest is in things like this: http://nodebox.net/code/index.php/LetterKnitter ; at some point it's not necessarily valuable as selected text
  93. # [03:01] <llimllib> How do you select text that's not in rows anyway? How would you select text that followed a circular path around a block of text in the middle, but not the text in the middle? Is that the behavior you want?
  94. # [03:16] <Hixie> llimllib: nothing is written about it yet as far as i know
  95. # [03:16] <Hixie> certainly on the whole we want to encourage text to be in css
  96. # [03:16] <Hixie> er
  97. # [03:16] <Hixie> html
  98. # [03:16] <Hixie> styled with css
  99. # [03:17] <llimllib> certainly
  100. # [03:21] <llimllib> currently, the ability to save a canvas creates a clean separation between text in canvas and text outside, AFAICS. Should there be text which is both styled with CSS and able to be saved with getImageData?
  101. # [03:29] <Hixie> jgraham: sweet, your script seems the fastest
  102. # [03:32] * Hixie sets up his script so it runs anne's, jgraham's, and bert's, and uses whichever one returns first
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  106. # [03:46] <takkaria> redundancy ftw
  107. # [03:57] <Hixie> jgraham, gsnedders: looks like anolis does some bad things
  108. # [03:57] <Hixie> probably due to using libxml2's serialiser
  109. # [03:58] <Hixie> it sticks a lot of newlines in unexpected places
  110. # [03:58] <Hixie> e.g. before </code> and </a>
  111. # [03:58] <Hixie> or around <style>...</style> blocks
  112. # [03:58] <Hixie> it totally screws up idl blocks
  113. # [03:59] <takkaria> hmm, I should really work on hubbub sorted so we can make a release and anolis can use it
  114. # [04:00] <Hixie> that'd be awesome
  115. # [04:01] <Hixie> jgraham, gsnedders: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/anolis-generated-index
  116. # [04:01] <Hixie> i can't use that :-)
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  118. # [04:19] <Lachy> wow, a local camera store quoted me over $100 to repair a battery cover on my digital camera, but getting the part directly from the Kodak supplier and fixing it myself will only cost $5.50
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  135. # [05:30] <annevk2> I'm not part of the 2001 Web
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  140. # [05:53] <gavin> me neither :(
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  194. # [10:30] <hsivonen> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/html5 might develop into a feed worth following for tracking HTML5 questions outside the WGs
  195. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: wonder if it's worth adding it to Planet HTML5 now
  196. # [10:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: insufficient data to tell yet. not much harm in trying, though
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  201. # [10:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i have a (broken and not optimized at all) serializer for SDF in javascript
  202. # [10:46] <zcorpan> or maybe it was just a parser
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  204. # [10:48] <zcorpan> annevk2: fixed, thanks
  205. # [10:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: wrting a SAX parser for SDF might indeed be the thing to try.
  206. # [10:49] * Philip` still thinks SDF is unsuitable since it doesn't scale linearly
  207. # [10:49] <zcorpan> i'm sure it's possible to come up with a better format
  208. # [10:50] <zcorpan> SDF was a quick hack for what i needed at the time
  209. # [10:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: btw, SDF doesn't have a default for the namespace on attribute nodes
  210. # [10:50] <zcorpan> hsivonen: isn't it the empty string?
  211. # [10:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ah. right
  212. # [10:51] <hsivonen> I was merely comparing the definitions of e and a
  213. # [10:51] <zcorpan> error handling isn't defined for sdf :(
  214. # [10:52] <zcorpan> assuming the error handling i had in my parser it's not particularly extensible
  215. # [10:53] <zcorpan> (it just assumed it was correct and skipped past expected stuff without looking)
  216. # [10:54] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-177-25.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  217. # [10:58] <jgraham> Hixie: I just fixed a couple of things at anolis.hoppipolla.co.uk (it now displays a front page and doesn't excess whiespae in the source)
  218. # [10:58] * Hixie tries again
  219. # [10:59] <jgraham> It uses the html5lib serializer by the way
  220. # [10:59] <jgraham> So it's pretty easy to change the serialization code or options
  221. # [11:00] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "Warning: Overriding document character encoding from utf-8 to UTF-8."
  222. # [11:01] <Hixie> what happened to the spaces in the <head>?
  223. # [11:01] <Hixie> and between the </dl> and the <p>?
  224. # [11:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  225. # [11:02] <Hixie> also, any chance of it outputting entities instead of utf-8? the w3c has a bad habit of screwing up encoding declarations.
  226. # [11:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: isn't that something the W3C should fix
  227. # [11:03] <hsivonen> if the W3C can't get it right, the future with all the random joes out there looks bad
  228. # [11:03] <Hixie> yes but realistically i don't give that much of a chance and it's really not something i want to worry about
  229. # [11:04] <Hixie> jgraham: a lot of "unimportant" spaces get removed that make the source somewhat more messy, is that fixable?
  230. # [11:05] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-67-170-213-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  231. # [11:05] <jgraham> Hixie: Possibly.
  232. # [11:05] * jgraham needs to look at the serializer again
  233. # [11:05] <Hixie> might be libxml2's fault, i dunno
  234. # [11:06] <Hixie> it's certainly much better than before
  235. # [11:06] <erlehmann> wtf does "Anolis ALPHABETA" do ?
  236. # [11:07] <Hixie> generates the spec
  237. # [11:07] <erlehmann> from what ?
  238. # [11:08] <Hixie> it generates http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/index from http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/source
  239. # [11:08] <Philip`> jgraham: Tell it to output ASCII, I think
  240. # [11:08] <Philip`> jgraham: serializer.serialize(tokens, encoding='us-ascii') seems to make it do everything with entities
  241. # [11:09] <erlehmann> Hixie: so its essentially XSL ?
  242. # [11:09] <Hixie> in the same sense that C++ is essentially XSL, yes
  243. # [11:09] <erlehmann> hrhr
  244. # [11:10] <Hixie> or rather, that the C++ preprocessor is XSL
  245. # [11:16] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-67-170-213-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  249. # [11:25] <olliej> Hixie: the whatwg twitter account has some odd tweets at times
  250. # [11:26] <Hixie> yes, anyone can tweet on it at whatwg.org
  251. # [11:28] <gsnedders> olliej: Well, you can blame me for <http://twitter.com/WHATWG/statuses/939592521>
  252. # [11:29] <gsnedders> jgraham: http://stuff.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/html5.whatwg.html — that has less excess whitespace than you
  253. # [11:31] <jgraham> Hixie: Should have fixed the UTF-8 thing now. Try adding &html5lib=true to the url; assuming I didn't screw up, that should both parse and serialize with html5lib (which is slower, obviously)
  254. # [11:31] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-247-35.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  255. # [11:31] <gsnedders> jgraham: "If you want to mention random topics of interest you should have a little more detail"
  256. # [11:31] <Hixie> making it even slower would fail at the only real need i had for this tool :-)
  257. # [11:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: Like how interested?
  258. # [11:32] <gsnedders> Hixie: We should set up something that uses hsivonen's parser to parse it to XML first :P
  259. # [11:34] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  260. # [11:34] <erlehmann> http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/walrus0/obama2280473432_a0afd88685.jpg
  261. # [11:37] <Philip`> gsnedders: Unfortunately you need to set up and run some long-running Java server process, otherwise it'll take much longer to launch the JVM than to do the actual parsing :-(
  262. # [11:37] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  263. # [11:38] * gsnedders wonders whether we could use Jython
  264. # [11:38] * Philip` wonders how much RAM you'd need for something like that
  265. # [11:38] <jgraham> Hixie: The point was to compare which errors are on the parser side and which on the serializer side :)
  266. # [11:38] <Hixie> jgraham: ah :-)
  267. # [11:38] <Philip`> gsnedders: You'd have to stop using the lxml API and start using whatever the relevant Java APIs are, I expect
  268. # [11:38] * Hixie tries
  269. # [11:38] * hsivonen guesses between 16 to 64 MB
  270. # [11:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: No, I could parse it from HTML -> XML -> lxml
  271. # [11:40] <gsnedders> jgraham: Should I just drop the examples in parenthesis in the second para.?
  272. # [11:40] <jgraham> gsnedders: Do you mean how much detail?
  273. # [11:40] <gsnedders> jgraham: yeah
  274. # [11:40] <gsnedders> jgraham: And now I'm asking about the very existence of the other examples
  275. # [11:41] <Philip`> gsnedders: Ah, okay, but you still can't use lxml in Jython since it's a C module
  276. # [11:41] <gsnedders> Philip`: Ah.
  277. # [11:41] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  278. # [11:41] <jgraham> I think the examples in parens are somewhat better than the sentence "Recent things that have interested me are [...]"
  279. # [11:41] <Philip`> so you might as well have a separate external process that does HTML-string -> XML-string and then parse that with lxml in CPython
  280. # [11:41] <gsnedders> yeah
  281. # [11:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'm just going to stab you :P
  282. # [11:42] <jgraham> It's not a bad idea to sounds up to date but they kinds of sound like "I just read some stuff recently for my UCAS form"
  283. # [11:43] <Philip`> hsivonen: Ah, that doesn't sound too bad - what kind of software do people use if they just want to run a simple Java service where they can send it a string and get a string back?
  284. # [11:43] <jgraham> gsnedders: That won't help your application at all. Unless, I suppose, you find a way to stab me over the internet, in which case it will be such a major breakthrough that ou mght get into the OU from your prison cell
  285. # [11:44] <Hixie> jgraham: took about 4 times as long, but yeah, it fixed the problem
  286. # [11:44] <gsnedders> I wonder how much Pysco would help
  287. # [11:44] <gsnedders> jgraham: Can I just concur with Philip` and my teacher in what it's fine?
  288. # [11:44] <jgraham> gsnedders: It helps quite a bit bu only on 32bit python
  289. # [11:45] <gsnedders> Actually, I need to add in TUSLIP.
  290. # [11:45] <gsnedders> ERGH>
  291. # [11:45] <gsnedders> *ERGH.
  292. # [11:45] <jgraham> gsnedders: You can do whatever you like, it's your application :)
  293. # [11:45] <Philip`> gsnedders: I think Psyco gave something like 25-50% improvement in parsing stuff, with an old version of html5lib
  294. # [11:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: Jetty with your own main() method if you want HTTP
  295. # [11:45] <gsnedders> Philip`: And the rest of Anolis? :P
  296. # [11:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: or a simple loop doing accept() on ServerSocket if you don't want HTTP
  297. # [11:46] * Quits: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  298. # [11:46] <Philip`> gsnedders: I don't think I actually said it was fine; I just couldn't easily think of any worthwhile improvements to suggest :-)
  299. # [11:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: :P
  300. # [11:46] <Philip`> gsnedders: That depends entirely on where your bottlenecks are
  301. # [11:47] <gsnedders> Philip`: TOC building is expensive (building it in memory from the entire tree, actually making a ol/li list is cheap)
  302. # [11:47] <hsivonen> Philip`: if the spec can be trusted not to have non-streamable errors, you could run the parser in the streaming mode and use up less RAM
  303. # [11:47] <gsnedders> Philip`: xref is very expensive
  304. # [11:47] <Philip`> e.g. I assume Psyco helps a lot with long arithmetic functions, but it doesn't help at all if you're spending all your time in C libraries
  305. # [11:47] <Philip`> or if you're spending all your time doing string manipulation and dict lookups
  306. # [11:48] <gsnedders> jgraham: Should I just omit the backflipping car?
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  308. # [11:50] <jgraham> gsnedders: The car thing might be good if it is really something that has motivated you to study physics
  309. # [11:51] <jgraham> But if it is you need to say that explicitly and expand it a but
  310. # [11:51] <jgraham> bit
  311. # [11:51] * gsnedders gives up on sending it off today
  312. # [11:51] <gsnedders> If I include the TUSLIP day, then I'll end up with it too long
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  314. # [11:56] * olliej is now known as fakeolliej
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  317. # [12:03] <jgraham> gsnedders: Try removing generic sentences like "There are almost endless questions that can be asked about how and why systems behave as they do.". Hopefully the peorson reading your personal statement already realises that :)
  318. # [12:04] <jgraham> That also applies to things like "Two useful skills that physics teaches are..."
  319. # [12:05] <jgraham> You should say something about you e.g. "Two skills that I have developed through studyinging physics are..."
  320. # [12:05] <jgraham> Because the person reading the form already knows what physics is supposed to teach but they want to know what you have got out of it
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  323. # [12:25] <jgraham> I enabled psyco on anolis.h.c.u I don't know if it's making a significant difference or not
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  325. # [12:26] <Hixie> no noticeable difference
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  327. # [12:26] <Hixie> takes 8 seconds
  328. # [12:26] <Hixie> which is fine
  329. # [12:26] <Hixie> for now :-)
  330. # [12:31] <Hixie> so... anyone see anything wrong with http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ ?
  331. # [12:32] <Hixie> Philip`: looks like the multipage script works ok with the new ids?
  332. # [12:34] <Hixie> gsnedders, jgraham: i'm still getting validation errors on the w3c verson of the doc: http://html5.validator.nu/?=&doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org%2Fspecs%2Fweb-apps%2Fcurrent-work%2F.w3c%2FOverview.html
  333. # [12:36] <Hixie> something weird happens to the table in the source
  334. # [12:36] <Hixie> the whole table vanishes
  335. # [12:36] <Hixie> ohhhh
  336. # [12:37] <Hixie> i bet i know what it is
  337. # [12:37] <Hixie> i bet the newlines are being stripped
  338. # [12:37] <Hixie> and so the sed script is nuking the whole table
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  346. # [12:49] <Hixie> ok now the only problem is that the serialisation adds an unnecessary <meta charset>
  347. # [12:49] <Hixie> but i can strip that with my postprocess step
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  354. # [13:16] <Philip`> Hixie: It doesn't work okay, in the sense that it doesn't split things into sensible-sized chunks
  355. # [13:17] <Philip`> though it does still split things into chunks
  356. # [13:17] <Philip`> but I'll just need to upload the new version which has a new list of split ids
  357. # [13:17] <Philip`> which is hopefully trivial
  358. # [13:17] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ is the new version
  359. # [13:17] <Hixie> i'm ready to flip the switch and check it in
  360. # [13:18] <Hixie> just give the word
  361. # [13:19] <Philip`> Hmph, you've done too much work and now the sections are unevenly sized again
  362. # [13:19] <Hixie> heh
  363. # [13:20] <Philip`> Did anyone conclude whether the lxml parser/serialiser has problems, that would mean I couldn't use them in the spec-splitter?
  364. # [13:20] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  365. # [13:20] <Hixie> the serialiser has issues iirc
  366. # [13:21] <Hixie> though i forget what
  367. # [13:21] <Hixie> the parser is already used by anolis so whatever problems it introduces are already payed for
  368. # [13:21] <annevk2> looks ok to me, though we need to fix some Anolis bugs too in due course
  369. # [13:22] <annevk2> but I thought the service from jgraham was not stable?
  370. # [13:22] <Philip`> (Hmm, better sizes now - the largest is 261KB for the forms section)
  371. # [13:22] <Hixie> not stable?
  372. # [13:23] <annevk2> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081001#l-33
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  374. # [13:24] * Philip` will stick with the html5lib serialiser, just to be safe
  375. # [13:25] <Hixie> Philip`: seems wise
  376. # [13:25] <Hixie> and time is not an issue with the multipage script
  377. # [13:25] <Hixie> annevk2: well, i have my system set up so it will fire up every anolis instance i know if (james' and yours so far) and use whichever one gets back soonest
  378. # [13:25] <Hixie> i know of, even
  379. # [13:25] <annevk2> ok
  380. # [13:26] <Philip`> But it slows down my server and steals CPU time away from its more important processes such as, er, irssi and not much else
  381. # [13:26] <annevk2> how was the issue serialization issue fixed?
  382. # [13:28] <Hixie> Philip`: :-)
  383. # [13:28] <Hixie> issue serialization?
  384. # [13:29] <Philip`> Updated the spec-splitter service now
  385. # [13:29] <Philip`> Wait, no I haven't
  386. # [13:30] <Philip`> Now I think I have
  387. # [13:30] <annevk2> Hixie, with the validation errors
  388. # [13:30] <Philip`> (It should be faster since it still parses with lxml)
  389. # [13:30] <Hixie> annevk2: oh
  390. # [13:30] <Hixie> annevk2: not sure
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  393. # [13:44] <jgraham> annevk2: I switched to using html5lib for serialization
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  395. # [13:46] <annevk2> I see
  396. # [13:47] <jgraham> http://hg.jgraham.webfactional.com/aquarium/ is the front end code I currently have
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  398. # [13:49] <annevk2> sys.stdout.write versus print?
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  406. # [14:12] <zcorpan> Hixie: shouldn't the content sniffing: unknown type allow whitespace before "<!DOCTYPE HTML"?
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  412. # [14:38] <BenMillard> krijnh, the URL http://nodebox.net/code/index.php/Reference_|_textpath() here: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081001#l-75
  413. # [14:39] <BenMillard> Opera's IRC doesn't include the ) but there is a ( just before it in the URL
  414. # [14:42] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/stdout.txt looks much prettier in Opera than in Firefox
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  416. # [14:47] <virtuelv> Can I assume that 2007-06-07 is going to be a valid date string?
  417. # [14:47] <annevk2> I'd say yes
  418. # [14:48] <virtuelv> Ok, going to take the liberty of using it, then
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  434. # [16:20] <krijnh> BenMillard: fixed :)
  435. # [16:20] <krijnh> (http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081001#l-412)
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  442. # [16:40] <virtuelv> any proposals on how to represent all of these in HTML: http://people.brandeis.edu/~rind/bentley/symbols33.gif
  443. # [16:42] <zcorpan> the first three are probably <ins>/<del>
  444. # [16:42] <virtuelv> zcorpan: note that these are explicit corrections
  445. # [16:43] <zcorpan> yeah ... maybe <ins>/<del> isnt' appropriate for that
  446. # [16:43] <hsivonen> virtuelv: HTML simply doesn't have precise native semantics for all those
  447. # [16:43] <virtuelv> question is, should it?
  448. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: I doesn't seem to me at least that the core HTML language needs markup for copy-editing markup
  449. # [16:44] <hsivonen> virtuelv: in my opinion, no
  450. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: what hsivonen said
  451. # [16:44] <hsivonen> virtuelv: because HTML is a general language and not specific to that particular domain
  452. # [16:44] <virtuelv> kids are being asked to turn in assignments electronically already
  453. # [16:45] <annevk2> could use <ins> with a class
  454. # [16:45] <virtuelv> before long, those assignments will be html, handled by a textarea on steroids
  455. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> most people have no need for that granularity of copy-editing markup nor any idea wtf those marks mean
  456. # [16:46] <virtuelv> some are simply irrelevant, though, like 'stet'
  457. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> yeah
  458. # [16:46] <zcorpan> i guess you'd want <mark>
  459. # [16:46] <hsivonen> virtuelv: can't the teacher send back and edited file and the kid runs an html diff program on it?
  460. # [16:46] <zcorpan> with title or something
  461. # [16:47] <virtuelv> hsivonen: or the tool could provide the diff
  462. # [16:47] <zcorpan> the teacher sends a patch
  463. # [16:47] <virtuelv> can haz annotated patch
  464. # [16:48] <virtuelv> (it's just an open question, though, it just made me wonder)
  465. # [16:48] * Parts: annevk2 (n=annevk@63.116.113.44)
  466. # [16:48] <virtuelv> 4 and 5 has a tendency to throw off diffs, btw
  467. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> yeah
  468. # [16:50] * MikeSmith wonders what's wrong with the sentence "His head was wrapped in a turbine." .. likes that sentence just the way it is
  469. # [16:51] * zcorpan makes his spec more readable by introducing the term "context node"
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  471. # [16:53] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: hei
  472. # [16:54] <zcorpan> maybe it doesn't need to be an explicit xref? what do you think? (http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core#dom-document-createelement and onwards)
  473. # [16:59] <dglazkov> MikeSmith!
  474. # [17:00] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  475. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> dglazkov: please get to work on making it possible for me to build and use Chrome on Linux
  476. # [17:01] <dglazkov> MikeSmith: yessir!
  477. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> heh
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  482. # [17:18] <hsivonen> make -f client.mk build
  483. # [17:18] <hsivonen> doh
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  492. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> does anybody know who http://www.reddit.com/user/gst actually is?
  493. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: ↑
  494. # [18:13] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: no clue
  495. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> I think he's a script
  496. # [18:14] <virtuelv> based on his posting frequency, I suspect he's a bot
  497. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> heh
  498. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: coke jinx
  499. # [18:16] * MikeSmith encounters the "cat herder" metaphor for the 3000th millionth time
  500. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> with apologies, I think what some work needs is more people with cat-drowning skills
  501. # [18:17] * MikeSmith googles "cat drowner"
  502. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> 01:11 where /me is, btw
  503. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> so forgive me if I offend
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  510. # [18:52] <Philip`> I just want Chrome on Linux so that I can use http://ajeanius.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/first-release/
  511. # [18:52] <Philip`> Oh, that's a bad link since it doesn't give any indication what it is
  512. # [18:53] <Philip`> http://ajeanius.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/awesomium-google-chrome-hacked/
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  514. # [18:55] <Philip`> The copy-editing issue has an easy solution: the teacher should just print all the electronic submissions, and mark them up with a red biro
  515. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> "he API that Google put together is really quite kick-ass– it’s got support for injection of mouse/keyboard events, Javascript evaluation, invalidation callbacks, navigation callbacks, and best of all, it lets us do off-screen, selective rendering"
  516. # [19:02] * Joins: Maurice (n=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl)
  517. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> as far as the marking-up thing, based on my previous lives as both a schoolteacher (no joke) and textbook editor, marking up student/writers texts with red/baker-miller-red/soothing-blue copy-editing marks all the hell all over the place is not a terrifically efficient motivator at getting them to learn how to actually write
  518. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> the better way is to sit down one-on-one and go through and have them mark up the changes themselves
  519. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> in whatever color they prefer
  520. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> that is, verbally pointing out where the problems are
  521. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> sort of the "teach a man to fish" approach
  522. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> and they can use whatever arbitrary copy-editing markup format they want, in that case
  523. # [19:05] <erlehmann_> MIRRORS ARE MORE FUN THAN TELEVISION
  524. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> erlehmann_: Exactly. I understand exactly the point you are making, which is that sex is much better with mirrors involved.
  525. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> thanks
  526. # [19:10] <erlehmann_> D;
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  537. # [20:21] <gsnedders> Hixie: What service is adding in meta@charset?
  538. # [20:22] <gsnedders> It should be an html5lib option, and should be off by default
  539. # [20:24] <gsnedders> Why is inject_meta_charset defaulting to True in html5lib?
  540. # [20:24] <gsnedders> jgraham? Philip`?
  541. # [20:26] <jgraham> gsnedders: I didn't write that code but I guess it was decided that it is safer
  542. # [20:27] <jgraham> I think it should be False by default
  543. # [20:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: Can you set it off?
  544. # [20:27] <gsnedders> Me too.
  545. # [20:27] <gsnedders> (at least for Anolis)
  546. # [20:28] <gsnedders> (the API doesn't actually change html5lib options from the default)
  547. # [20:28] <jgraham> Er, I guess I should check on the mailing list before changing the default but sure, I'll change it for anolis
  548. # [20:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: If you're running an up-to-date (from hg) copy of Anolis, you have no need for indent_char
  549. # [20:29] <gsnedders> Is Hixie using it with html5lib parsing?
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  552. # [20:32] <jgraham> gsnedders: No
  553. # [20:32] <jgraham> gsnedders: Try that
  554. # [20:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: "that"? How?
  555. # [20:34] <jgraham> gsnedders: What were you complaining about?
  556. # [20:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: Huh?
  557. # [20:34] <jgraham> I changed anolis.hoppipolla.co.uk to serialize without the inject_meta_charset option and to not use indent_char
  558. # [20:35] <gsnedders> ah, OK
  559. # [20:35] <gsnedders> Yeah, that works fine
  560. # [20:35] <gsnedders> inject_meta_charset is a bit slow too
  561. # [20:37] <jgraham> Is there a version of the source with the WG-specific headers but without the postprocessed stuff somewhere?
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  563. # [20:38] <gsnedders> jgraham: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/source-w3c?
  564. # [20:39] <gsnedders> interestingly I'm seeing next to no difference with &html5lib and without
  565. # [20:40] <jgraham> gsnedders: Is the output different? Otherwise it suggests a bug :)
  566. # [20:40] <jgraham> (psyco might have helped html5lib a lot)
  567. # [20:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: Both are identical
  568. # [20:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: They are different for me
  569. # [20:57] <jgraham> You need &html5lib=something e.g. &html5lib=true
  570. # [20:58] * gsnedders tries
  571. # [20:59] <gsnedders> Yeah, I'm getting different stuff now
  572. # [20:59] * gsnedders shrugs
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  618. # [22:09] <sicking> annevk2, ping
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  620. # [22:12] <gsnedders> annevk2: ping
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  622. # [22:25] <annevk2> yo
  623. # [22:25] * annevk2 is sort of available
  624. # [22:25] <annevk2> sicking, gsnedders, yo/pong
  625. # [22:26] <gsnedders> annevk2: you made mention to Anolis bugs that will need to be fixed. What bugs?
  626. # [22:26] <annevk2> hsivonen, http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fannevankesteren.nl%2F2008%2Fajaxexperience seems wrong
  627. # [22:26] <annevk2> gsnedders, it was the serializer issues
  628. # [22:27] <gsnedders> annevk2: ah. That's lxml/html5lib bugs! :P
  629. # [22:27] <sicking> annevk2, what is the purpose of the "url return flag"?
  630. # [22:27] <annevk2> sicking, redirects?
  631. # [22:28] <sicking> annevk2, seems like a hook for the XHR2 spec, but I don't even get how it's used there
  632. # [22:28] <sicking> annevk2, ?
  633. # [22:28] <annevk2> you do a request from A to B
  634. # [22:28] <annevk2> B redirects to A
  635. # [22:29] <annevk2> in that case the status return flag will be "same-origin" and the "url return flag" the specific URL
  636. # [22:29] <sicking> why not just say "follow the redirect"?
  637. # [22:29] <annevk2> because the policy is different
  638. # [22:29] <annevk2> XHR2 starts using the same origin request policy at that point
  639. # [22:30] <sicking> so first off, i'm not sure that that is safe
  640. # [22:30] <annevk2> we discussed this model ages ago
  641. # [22:30] <annevk2> and you agreed to it
  642. # [22:30] <annevk2> :)
  643. # [22:30] <sicking> really?
  644. # [22:30] <sicking> i doubt that
  645. # [22:30] <annevk2> yes
  646. # [22:30] <sicking> i remember this was discussed, but i don't remember a resolution
  647. # [22:31] <sicking> it seems scary that if good.com loads what it thinks is a resource from evil.com, it might actually end up getting a private resource from good.com that was loaded with credentials
  648. # [22:32] <sicking> if good.com publishes that resource anywhere effectively evil.com can read private data from good.com
  649. # [22:32] <annevk2> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2007Aug/0036.html
  650. # [22:33] <sicking> well, that was just crazy :)
  651. # [22:33] <sicking> s/that/I/
  652. # [22:33] <annevk2> fair enough :p
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  654. # [22:34] <sicking> meaning you'll change it?
  655. # [22:35] <annevk2> to what?
  656. # [22:35] <annevk2> are you suggesting dropping that entire thing and simply always require the check?
  657. # [22:35] <sicking> yes
  658. # [22:35] <sicking> well, once you've been cross-site
  659. # [22:36] <annevk2> that'd make things simpler :)
  660. # [22:36] <sicking> not for requests that are strictly same-site
  661. # [22:36] <annevk2> basically dropping a bunch of text
  662. # [22:36] <annevk2> well, same-site has a different "spec path" anyway
  663. # [22:36] <annevk2> i need an e-mail though
  664. # [22:36] <annevk2> so everyone knows
  665. # [22:37] <annevk2> and i can point it out to you in a few years and you can say "well, I was just crazy" again :)
  666. # [22:37] <sicking> yeah, i think this needs to be discussed. Things do seem somewhat non-ideal no matter what
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  668. # [22:52] <erlehmann_> http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/dan/movie_screw/vod6.jpg
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  675. # [23:38] <Hixie> i love how the wai meeting is to be inaccessible to those who don't actually go to france
  676. # [23:40] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-d7d137f42d097658) (Success)
  677. # [23:47] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  678. # [23:49] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228067204.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  679. # [23:52] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@80.76.201.52) (Remote closed the connection)
  680. # [23:53] * Philip` finds http://www.htmlite.com/XH003.php
  681. # [23:53] <Philip`> It seems they lacked sufficient foresight :-(
  682. # [23:53] <Dashiva> "Accessing attributes as properties is discouraged and considered becoming obsolete"
  683. # [23:53] <Dashiva> what?
  684. # [23:55] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.244.17.158) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  685. # [23:55] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.244.17.158)
  686. # [23:59] * Joins: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable144.140-202-24.mc.videotron.ca)
  687. # Session Close: Thu Oct 02 00:00:00 2008

The end :)