/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-10-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 02 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  16. # [00:44] <gsnedders> Must. Stop. Procrastinating.
  17. # [00:46] <jcranmer> gsnedders: meh, do it tomorrow ;-)
  18. # [00:46] <gsnedders> jcranmer: Need to do this. Today.
  19. # [00:47] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Then stop talking about it on IRC
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  39. # [02:23] <Hixie> so.......
  40. # [02:23] <Hixie> if you have an <input> element
  41. # [02:24] <Hixie> type=text
  42. # [02:24] <Hixie> and you type in some text
  43. # [02:24] <Hixie> and then the script changes it to type=checkbox
  44. # [02:24] <Hixie> and you submit
  45. # [02:24] <Hixie> what value should be submitted?
  46. # [02:24] <Hixie> opera and mozilla say "on", safari says whatever you typed, IE says you can't change the type.
  47. # [02:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: off.
  48. # [02:29] <Hixie> what.
  49. # [02:29] <Hixie> the hell.
  50. # [02:29] <Hixie> setting .value when type=checkbox causes the value attribute to change?!?!?!
  51. # [02:30] <gsnedders> heh.
  52. # [02:30] <gsnedders> Hixie: You obviously forgot to leave your sense of logic at the door.
  53. # [02:30] <gsnedders> Hixie: What's happening about Anolis, BTW?
  54. # [02:31] <Hixie> it's live
  55. # [02:31] <gsnedders> Hixie: But not committed.
  56. # [02:31] <Hixie> and committeed
  57. # [02:31] <Hixie> committed
  58. # [02:31] <gsnedders> It is?
  59. # [02:31] <gsnedders> I haven't seen that.
  60. # [02:31] <gsnedders> :P
  61. # [02:31] <Hixie> i checked it in last night
  62. # [02:32] <Hixie> r2256
  63. # [02:32] <gsnedders> no email on the list
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  65. # [02:33] <gsnedders> (like the commit watchers list)
  66. # [02:33] <Hixie> probably was too long and hit the limit
  67. # [02:33] <gsnedders> Heh.
  68. # [02:33] <gsnedders> Like, almost every line changed, I expect.
  69. # [02:33] <gsnedders> Now, what need I do to get a special thanks (:)?
  70. # [02:33] <gsnedders> :P
  71. # [02:33] <Hixie> :-P
  72. # [02:33] <gsnedders> (I mean, why do you think I did this anyway)
  73. # [02:34] <Hixie> bert didn't get special thanks either :-)
  74. # [02:34] <gsnedders> multi-file Anolis?
  75. # [02:34] <gsnedders> :P
  76. # [02:34] <Hixie> :-P
  77. # [02:34] <gsnedders> Yeah, but most of what you did about that was complain about its speed :P
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  79. # [02:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/ — the TOC list has the ol numbers :(
  80. # [02:38] * Joins: webben (n=benh@82.152.117.161)
  81. # [02:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: Should I send a email to the list saying IDs are completely different now?
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  83. # [02:45] <aboodman> Hixie: I don't see the craziness in the value attribute changing when the value property is changed
  84. # [02:45] <aboodman> am I missing something?
  85. # [02:46] <Hixie> aboodman: the value attribute doesn't change when the value property is changed for any other type value
  86. # [02:46] <Hixie> aboodman: normally the value content attribute maps to the defaultValue DOM attribute
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  89. # [02:51] <Hixie> man this really screws things up
  90. # [02:53] <Hixie> wtf
  91. # [02:54] <Hixie> hm, at least this is scoped to the input element
  92. # [02:55] <aboodman> out of curiosity, are most attributes in html5 defined to reflect or not reflect
  93. # [02:55] <Hixie> most reflect
  94. # [02:56] <aboodman> yipp33
  95. # [02:56] <aboodman> argh
  96. # [02:56] <aboodman> i really must learn to type at some point.
  97. # [02:56] <gsnedders> Type? Why do that?
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  106. # [03:19] * gsnedders changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks! -- gsnedders had green hair, photos coming soon :-)'
  107. # [03:23] <othermaciej> the weird situation with .value, .defaultValue and value="" is kind of weird and pretty suboptimal
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  111. # [03:29] <Hixie> othermaciej: and now standardised.
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  119. # [04:57] <Lachy> Hixie, http://blog.whatwg.org/demos-2008-sept#comment-27669
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  138. # [07:08] <Hixie> what does a radio button represent?
  139. # [07:09] <othermaciej> one of several mutually exclusive choices
  140. # [07:10] <Hixie> what if there aren't any others?
  141. # [07:11] <othermaciej> what does an <li> represent if there aren't any others?
  142. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> what is the sound of one hand clapping?
  143. # [07:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: a list item
  144. # [07:25] <othermaciej> then you could say a radio button represents a readio button
  145. # [07:25] <othermaciej> because in fact what it represents is a particular UI control
  146. # [07:25] <othermaciej> and the semantic of how such controls are used is dictated by convention
  147. # [07:25] <Hixie> fair enough
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  164. # [09:34] <Hixie> well radio buttons turned out to be more of a pain than i expected
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  168. # [09:44] <jruderman_> radio groups represent mutually exclusive choices, but so do <select size=1> and <select size=10>, and all three have different UI (by convention)
  169. # [09:45] <jruderman_> it annoys me when i get paper forms that say "check one" and have empty squares instead of empty circles
  170. # [09:45] <jruderman_> seems so wrong
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  173. # [09:48] <Hixie> heh
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  175. # [09:53] <Hixie> ok, only file, hidden, submit, image, reset, and button to do now.
  176. # [09:55] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/2008/10/TPAC/TPDay-Agenda
  177. # [09:57] <hsivonen> I wonder if Hixie has been already invited as a panelist
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  179. # [09:58] <virtuelv> hmph
  180. # [09:58] <virtuelv> Google is a harsh mistress
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  182. # [09:59] <Hixie> hsivonen: for which panel?
  183. # [09:59] <hsivonen> this year it's no longer html5 vs. xhtml2. now it's html vs. xml
  184. # [09:59] <virtuelv> (completely off-topic, of course)
  185. # [09:59] <Hixie> virtuelv: hm?
  186. # [09:59] <Hixie> there's a topic here?
  187. # [09:59] * Hixie looks at gsnedders :-P
  188. # [10:00] <virtuelv> Hixie: yeah, when Dreamhost was mass-compromised last year, my account were among the unfortunate 3500
  189. # [10:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: Architecture and html&xml
  190. # [10:01] <virtuelv> I had one page left that I didn't actually notice when I cleaned up all of the injected spam, and for that, I'm now invisible in Google for the next couple of weeks
  191. # [10:01] <Hixie> aah
  192. # [10:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: session 2?
  193. # [10:01] <Hixie> or 7?
  194. # [10:02] <Hixie> someone should stand by the mic during the TP and pipe up briefly every time someone says something not true
  195. # [10:02] <Hixie> e.g. "The HTML5 work on the other hand uses a centralised extensibility mechanism based on formalized tagsoup parsing." "Actually that's not an accurate description."
  196. # [10:03] <Hixie> actually reading that abstract more carefully i don't even know what it means
  197. # [10:03] <Hixie> sounds like something palin might say
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  199. # [10:16] <heycam> http://www.theage.com.au/photogallery/2008/10/02/1222651246843.html -- hmm, is that IE being used in the A380's cockpit?
  200. # [10:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: I was wondering about your participation in both 2 and 7
  201. # [10:16] <heycam> regardless, it looks like a terrible interface for presenting that information (with the scrolling)
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  203. # [10:20] <virtuelv> hsivonen: this? http://images.theage.com.au/ftage/ffximage/2008/10/02/qantas__16__gallery__539x400.jpg
  204. # [10:20] <heycam> virtuelv, yeah
  205. # [10:21] <virtuelv> heycam: how can you tell?
  206. # [10:21] <virtuelv> I can clearly see it's windows, but IE?
  207. # [10:21] <virtuelv> the table?
  208. # [10:21] <heycam> yeah the table is what made me think that
  209. # [10:23] <virtuelv> looks like
  210. # [10:23] <heycam> windows in the cockpit is probably enough to make me worry though :)
  211. # [10:24] <heycam> i noticed linux booting up on a plane's entertainment system recently
  212. # [10:24] <hsivonen> seems like a very bad idea to put Windows in the cockpit
  213. # [10:24] <hsivonen> I'd want a small well debugged real time OS in the cockpit
  214. # [10:25] <heycam> i assume that windows thing is isolated from any flight controlling systems, but still...
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  216. # [10:28] <hsivonen> Sun had the "high risk activities" clause in the non-GPL JDK licenses forever even though JDK on Solaris is probably more stable than IE on Windows
  217. # [10:28] <virtuelv> heycam: I'd assume so
  218. # [10:29] <virtuelv> but you're still pretty screwed for the 30 seconds it takes rebooting
  219. # [10:30] <hsivonen> why doesn't http://www.p01.org/releases/Demoscene/files/pNebula_canvas_256b_valid.htm work in Firefox/Minefield?
  220. # [10:31] <virtuelv> hsivonen: I guess mathieu optimized away a few bytes too many
  221. # [10:31] <virtuelv> it worked a couple of days ago
  222. # [10:33] <zcorpan> hsivonen: this is why: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Ccanvas%20id%3DR%3E%3C%2Fcanvas%3E%3Cscript%3Ew(R)%3C%2Fscript%3E
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  224. # [10:41] <hsivonen> zcorpan: that's unintuitive
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  226. # [10:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: but it works in ie/opera/webkit
  227. # [10:47] <zcorpan> oh actually
  228. # [10:47] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Ccanvas%20id%3DR%3E%3C%2Fcanvas%3Ex%3Cscript%3Ew(R)%3C%2Fscript%3E
  229. # [10:48] <zcorpan> i forgot about the more-script-to-head bug
  230. # [10:49] <zcorpan> oh firefox only does that in quirks mode
  231. # [10:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I meant the Gecko tree building behavior is unintuitive
  232. # [10:49] <zcorpan> defining R in the global scope from id that is
  233. # [10:49] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah, but that wasn't why the demo wasn't working
  234. # [10:49] <hsivonen> oh
  235. # [10:49] <zcorpan> hsivonen: the demo should work if you remove the doctype
  236. # [10:49] <hsivonen> now I see what you meant
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  240. # [11:01] <virtuelv> zcorpan: just asked p01, and he indicated it chokes on something in the script
  241. # [11:01] <virtuelv> <p01> ff3.0.3 chokes on "R", pbly expecting "document.R"
  242. # [11:02] <zcorpan> virtuelv: yes it doesn't do <elm id=foo> -> window.foo in standards mode
  243. # [11:02] <zcorpan> virtuelv: only in quirks mode
  244. # [11:02] <zcorpan> while other browsers do it in both
  245. # [11:04] * Quits: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@g228067204.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  246. # [11:05] <zcorpan> i think he needs R=document.body.lastChild
  247. # [11:06] <zcorpan> and then he can drop id=R
  248. # [11:15] <Philip`> He could save another 6 bytes just by dropping the quotes around onload, I think
  249. # [11:16] <Philip`> Oh, = is not allowed in unquoted attributes? How annoying :-(
  250. # [11:16] * Hixie has started using the convention of omitting quotes around attribute values for attributes that take keywords or numbers, and having them for everything else
  251. # [11:17] <Hixie> (strings, urls, script, css, etc)
  252. # [11:18] <virtuelv> zcorpan: his goal is to stay under 256 bytes *and* be in standards mode
  253. # [11:18] <virtuelv> if he drops being in standards mode, he can chop it down to 220+something, I think
  254. # [11:19] <Philip`> *and* be conforming?
  255. # [11:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: Are you trying to say I often take us off-topic?
  256. # [11:19] <gsnedders> :P
  257. # [11:20] <Hixie> i think i'm going to change how type=file handles min/max
  258. # [11:23] <gsnedders> Hixie: If you are, I guess I can't really deny it.
  259. # [11:24] <Hixie> gsnedders: no comment :-P
  260. # [11:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: I mean, you looked at me when talking about going off-topic :P
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  263. # [11:52] <zcorpan> hmm anolis cuts off web-dom-core after the comment "<!-- TypeInfo dropped -->"
  264. # [11:52] <zcorpan> wonder what's up with that
  265. # [11:53] <virtuelv> Philip`: no
  266. # [11:54] <virtuelv> but we managed to chop off a version that runs in all browser, is valid and conforming to 248 bytes
  267. # [11:54] <virtuelv> fun way to spend half of your lunch
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  277. # [12:54] <zcorpan> can i make Node.prefix readonly?
  278. # [12:55] <zcorpan> webkit and firefox don't check against Name or NCName (or anything) and opera doesn't do anything on setting
  279. # [12:55] <zcorpan> so you can end up with spaces in tags in webkit and firefox by setting .prefix = '1 2'
  280. # [12:56] <zcorpan> though maybe the serializer would change prefixes again
  281. # [12:58] <zcorpan> nope at least innerHTML in firefox doesn't
  282. # [12:59] <zcorpan> data:text/xml,<html xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml'><script>var e = document.createElementNS('a','b');e.prefix = '1>2';document.documentElement.appendChild(e); alert(document.documentElement.innerHTML)</script></html>
  283. # [12:59] <zcorpan> same with webkit
  284. # [12:59] * zcorpan makes it readonly
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  289. # [13:38] * zcorpan mumbles something about isSameNode being useless
  290. # [13:44] <hsivonen> is it just an == check for languages that don't support == or that let tearoff implementation details leak instead of overloading ==?
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  293. # [13:47] <zcorpan> i'm not sure why it was added to dom3
  294. # [13:47] * Parts: deane (n=opera@121-72-195-126.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  295. # [13:47] <zcorpan> but it's the same as ==
  296. # [13:49] <zcorpan> considering that it's bogus for *Web* DOM, i'll drop it and see if someone complains
  297. # [13:49] <zcorpan> hmm there's also isEqualNode
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  299. # [13:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan: well, back when distinguishing "" vs. null was considered, someone said that Delphi can't distinguish those...
  300. # [13:52] <zcorpan> that's unfortunate
  301. # [13:53] <hsivonen> yes, but as a reason for Web API design completely pointless
  302. # [13:53] <zcorpan> indeed
  303. # [13:54] <hsivonen> so, I expect you to get complaints :-(
  304. # [13:54] <zcorpan> i wonder if isEqualNode is useful for something
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  306. # [14:18] <BenMillard> krijnh, how about linking data: urls? From http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081002#l-282: data:text/xml,<html xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml'><script>var e = document.createElementNS('a','b');e.prefix = '1>2';document.documentElement.appendChild(e); alert(document.documentElement.innerHTML)</script></html>
  307. # [14:18] <BenMillard> krijnh, also irc: URLs like those at and just after http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080226#l-321.
  308. # [14:19] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  309. # [14:19] <Philip`> BenMillard: If you don't escape spaces/etc in data URLs, how is any algorithm meant to work out where they end?
  310. # [14:20] <BenMillard> Philip`, I guess they normally end at the end of the line in this channel?
  311. # [14:20] <BenMillard> or at </html> or something
  312. # [14:21] <BenMillard> interestingly, Opera's IRC includes the : at the end of #l-282: in the link but doesn't include the . at the end of #l-321.
  313. # [14:21] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  314. # [14:22] <BenMillard> (I use Opera 9.52 for Windows XP)
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  319. # [14:40] * annevk2 finds http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/
  320. # [14:40] <annevk2> :)
  321. # [14:45] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  322. # [14:46] <annevk2> hsivonen, fwiw, the tactic with "Web DOM" is that it's just for the Web browser environment and that we don't seek to obsolete other DOM specifications in any way
  323. # [14:51] <hsivonen> ok
  324. # [14:54] <annevk2> that said, it might not mitigate getting people upset as browsers would no longer follow the DOM ... series of specifications
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  327. # [15:14] <annevk2> hsivonen, btw, did you seem my semi bug report yesterday?
  328. # [15:15] * Quits: erlehmann (n=nils@dslb-088-074-215-046.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  329. # [15:15] <annevk2> hsivonen, http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081001#l-626
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  338. # [16:19] <hsivonen> annevk2: thanks. now recorded: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=317
  339. # [16:20] <annevk2> the other bug was that the empty string is a valid contenteditable value
  340. # [16:20] <annevk2> iirc
  341. # [16:20] <annevk2> but i'll check that now in the spec
  342. # [16:21] <annevk2> yup: "The contenteditable attribute is an enumerated attribute whose keywords are the empty string, true, and false."
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  351. # [16:44] <Philip`> Opera really doesn't work well when I run out of disk space
  352. # [16:45] * Quits: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1)
  353. # [16:46] * Philip` is glad he has reasonably-recent backups of all the .ini files
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  371. # [17:51] <annevk2> zcorpan, "The hasChildNodes() method must return false if the context node's firstChild is null, and true otherwise." what if I have a custom firstChild?
  372. # [17:52] * weinig|zZz is now known as weinig
  373. # [17:52] <annevk2> zcorpan, for textContent you have getting and setting reversed
  374. # [17:53] <annevk2> (re http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core for those reading the logs)
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  377. # [18:14] <gsnedders> BenMillard: First lap at full speed in S2000 LM round High Speed Ring Reverse: 1:12
  378. # [18:25] <gsnedders> BenMillard: I just can't find a good line through the double S bend
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  381. # [18:37] <gsnedders> BenMillard: OK, I basically consistently do around 1:10.8
  382. # [18:44] <BenMillard> gsnedders, yeah that S-bend is touch
  383. # [18:45] <BenMillard> you have to favour the 2nd part...go deep into the first part so you are on the right-hand as you start the 2nd half
  384. # [18:46] <BenMillard> gnsedders, I'm helping my dad put pictures onto eBay now, chat later :)
  385. # [18:46] * Parts: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  386. # [18:46] <takkaria> make sure you add alt text to all of them
  387. # [18:57] * Philip` wonders how one should handle fatal errors in a streaming HTTP processor
  388. # [18:57] <Philip`> i.e. where you start sending the response before you've done all the processing (hence before you've detected all possible errors)
  389. # [18:58] <Philip`> (and maybe before you've even received the whole request)
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  407. # [19:59] * om_sleep is now known as othermaciej
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  415. # [20:26] * annevk2 wonders when Bugzilla will gain OpenID support
  416. # [20:26] <annevk2> (and hopefully support for linking the OpenID to an existing account)
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  419. # [20:48] * virtuelv wants something better than OpenID
  420. # [20:48] <virtuelv> don't misunderstand me, openid is great within the current constraints
  421. # [20:48] <virtuelv> I'd just want browsers to act like ssh
  422. # [20:58] <annevk2> how would that work well if you use 10 different browsers on 10 different platforms?
  423. # [21:05] <virtuelv> that is an open question
  424. # [21:05] <virtuelv> your question is one of key distribution
  425. # [21:06] <virtuelv> more specifically, private key distribution
  426. # [21:12] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-61075a1bc2a35098)
  427. # [21:14] <Hixie> ssh works without any private key distribution
  428. # [21:21] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-755060e06a263bbb)
  429. # [21:31] <Philip`> Only if you always SSH from the same place
  430. # [21:31] <Philip`> or use lots of independent pairs of keys
  431. # [21:31] <Philip`> or just use passwords instead
  432. # [21:32] * Philip` wonders how many people have their SSH private keys written on a Post-it note stuck on their monitor
  433. # [21:35] <Hixie> you're supposed to use independent keys
  434. # [21:35] <Hixie> it lets you knock one client out if it is compromised, without having to change the rest of your config
  435. # [21:38] <Philip`> But if one private key is compromised, the attacker can log in to all the other machines you have access to, which probably contain all your other 'independent' private keys, so the whole network of keys is compromised
  436. # [21:39] <Hixie> compromised was the wrong word
  437. # [21:39] <Hixie> i mean like if you sell your hard disk
  438. # [21:40] <Hixie> if you are compromised then yes, you have to nuke everything
  439. # [21:40] <Philip`> It seems much easier to remove the private key from that disk before you sell it, rather than deleting the corresponding public key from every other machine in the entire internet that your public key has been copied to
  440. # [21:41] <Philip`> (and it's not useful to remove the private key after you sell it, because the recipient will already have compromised all your accounts)
  441. # [21:41] <Philip`> Uh
  442. # [21:41] <Philip`> s/private key/public keys/
  443. # [21:42] <Hixie> wiping hard disks is non-trivial and assumes you can access the disk
  444. # [21:42] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-6ce5e52bc98a044c)
  445. # [21:42] <takkaria> wiping hard disks only requires ddd
  446. # [21:42] <takkaria> *dd
  447. # [21:42] <Hixie> anyway. to each his own. :-)
  448. # [21:42] <Philip`> Wiping disks only requires a screwdriver and sandpaper
  449. # [21:42] <Hixie> not if you're going to sell it :-)
  450. # [21:43] <takkaria> though I guess the number of people who know about dd is probably lower than 1 in 1000
  451. # [21:43] <Hixie> same with ssh!
  452. # [21:43] <Philip`> If it's a disk you've used already, it's tiny and obsolete and would have negligible resale value :-)
  453. # [21:44] <Philip`> Nobody would want to buy an old 250GB disk nowadays, you couldn't even fit six months of MP3s on it
  454. # [21:53] * Quits: sbublava (n=stephan@77.118.245.253)
  455. # [21:54] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/ says "ALTER_INFOSET is now the default", but http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/apidocs/nu/validator/htmlparser/sax/HtmlParser.html says "By default ... the this parser treats XML 1.0-incompatible infosets as fatal errors" which seems inconsistent
  456. # [21:54] <Philip`> (Also the latter says "the this parser")
  457. # [21:54] <Philip`> (which seems not grammar)
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  462. # [22:32] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  463. # [22:42] <sicking> Hixie, ping
  464. # [22:51] <Hixie> hey
  465. # [22:59] <annevk2> hmm, web-apps-tracker cache is now ~1.4GiB
  466. # [23:00] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  467. # [23:01] * Quits: smerp (n=smerp@66.192.95.199) ("Jesus Built My Workstation")
  468. # [23:09] <gsnedders> Anyone know of any way to contact markp without waiting months for him to check his email?
  469. # [23:10] <Dashiva> Commenting on his blog?
  470. # [23:10] <annevk2> !summon markp
  471. # [23:10] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  472. # [23:10] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Comments are only open for like two days on his blog
  473. # [23:10] <gsnedders> Dashiva: The later feedback form just goes to email, AFAIK
  474. # [23:11] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Wait for him to post a new one :)
  475. # [23:11] <gsnedders> http://diveintomark.org/tests/client/autodiscovery/ — tests 47 to 50 are broken :\
  476. # [23:12] * Quits: hdh0 (n=hdh@118.71.122.168) (Remote closed the connection)
  477. # [23:12] <annevk2> just make a blog post and hope he does an ego search
  478. # [23:16] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.244.17.249)
  479. # [23:16] * Joins: dotjay (n=dotjay@nov5th.plus.com)
  480. # [23:23] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@pool-71-105-211-125.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  481. # [23:28] * Quits: Maurice (n=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  482. # [23:29] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@SUFFOLK-THREE-O-SEVEN.MIT.EDU)
  483. # [23:38] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-8b29f3ef7f308a35)
  484. # [23:39] <Hixie> gsnedders: what do you want to ask him?
  485. # [23:49] <sicking> Hixie, so we need to figure out this how-to-compare-Origin-to-Access-Control-Allow-Origin thing
  486. # [23:50] <Hixie> i thought it was a string comparison
  487. # [23:50] <Hixie> no?
  488. # [23:51] <sicking> Hixie, yes, i question that that is wise
  489. # [23:51] * Quits: erlehmann (n=nils@echelon.ext.c-base.org) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  490. # [23:51] <Hixie> for security-related things, it seems the most conservative option is best
  491. # [23:51] <Hixie> it's hard to get a subtle security bug when you do a strict string comparison
  492. # [23:52] <Hixie> if we do something else, say partially case-insensitive IDN/punycode-equivalent full-URL comparison, we're setting ourself up for serious pain
  493. # [23:52] <Hixie> ourselves
  494. # [23:52] <sicking> everyone has to have code to do that anyway
  495. # [23:52] <Hixie> yeah and everyone has had at least oen security bug with it
  496. # [23:53] <sicking> so you can compare if two frames are same-origin or not
  497. # [23:53] <sicking> sure, but it needs to get fixed
  498. # [23:53] <Hixie> the frame origin comparison isn't a url comparison
  499. # [23:53] <Hixie> it's a tuple comparison of exact strings
  500. # [23:53] <sicking> so why reinvent the wheel, even if the new wheel is simpler
  501. # [23:53] <sicking> yup
  502. # [23:53] <sicking> well
  503. # [23:53] <Hixie> i'd rather not have a wheel at all, i'd rather have just a twig, or whatever is the right analogy here
  504. # [23:53] <sicking> strings and numbers
  505. # [23:54] <Hixie> string and numbers can be compared reasonably safely
  506. # [23:54] <sicking> it seems very confusing to have urls that are case sensitive though, when they aren't case sensitive anywhere else
  507. # [23:54] <Hixie> urls are a whole entire other ball game of extreme danger
  508. # [23:54] <Hixie> URLs are partially case-sensitive
  509. # [23:55] <Hixie> which is FAR more confusing than just comparing a string
  510. # [23:55] <Hixie> especially given that in most cases the string will either be hard-coded or echoed
  511. # [23:55] <sicking> but this must be a solved problem already
  512. # [23:55] <sicking> for everyone
  513. # [23:56] <sicking> no implementation i've talked to has seen any risk security wise
  514. # [23:56] <Hixie> the latest security bug with URL parsing was _last month_
  515. # [23:56] <sicking> me included
  516. # [23:56] <Hixie> 18 years into the life of urls
  517. # [23:56] <Hixie> and you want to rely on that?
  518. # [23:56] <sicking> would it have affected parsing origins?
  519. # [23:56] <sicking> i am already relying on url parsing
  520. # [23:56] <sicking> so ues
  521. # [23:56] <sicking> yes
  522. # [23:57] <Hixie> i have no idea (i'm thinking of the :% -> crash in chrome)
  523. # [23:57] <Hixie> how are you relying on url parsing?
  524. # [23:57] <sicking> when comparing if two frames are same-origin
  525. # [23:58] <sicking> all urls ultimately start as strings that are parsed
  526. # [23:58] <Hixie> that's nor a URL comparison, it's an exact tuple comparison of strings and numbers
  527. # [23:58] <Hixie> sure
  528. # [23:58] <Hixie> but by the time they are parsed if you got the parsing wrong you went to the wrong place
  529. # [23:58] <sicking> that's what the orign to ac-allow-origin will be too
  530. # [23:58] <Hixie> so you can't get the wrong security
  531. # [23:58] <Hixie> context
  532. # [23:58] <sicking> i'll reuse the same string->url parsing code
  533. # [23:59] <sicking> and then reuse the same url to url same origin code
  534. # [23:59] <Hixie> i really don't see any advantage to doing that
  535. # [23:59] <Hixie> it seems like asking to use a tightrope to cross a ravine when there's a perfectly good concrete bridge right next to it
  536. # [23:59] <Hixie> what's the problem with comparing strings?
  537. # [23:59] <sicking> except that the tightrope is used everywhere in the already
  538. # [00:00] <Hixie> why would the string comparison ever fail?
  539. # Session Close: Fri Oct 03 00:00:00 2008

The end :)