/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-10-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Oct 04 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:12] <BenMillard> Hixie, I've seen <a href title="30 entries"> and similar used in tag clouds to indicate frequency to users.
  4. # [00:13] <Hixie> annevk2: nested <em> would be wrong per html5. :-)
  5. # [00:13] <Hixie> BenMillard: that can work
  6. # [00:13] <BenMillard> sometimes it's in the content, like <li><a href>foo</a> (30)</a> or <li><a href>bar (30 entries)</a>
  7. # [00:13] <BenMillard> oops
  8. # [00:13] <BenMillard> <li><a href>Foo</a> (30)</li>
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  10. # [00:18] <BenMillard> I might use <ol> if the items were ordered by their frequency
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  12. # [00:19] <BenMillard> using <li value> to give the frequency makes sense in the markup but looks to weird in the rendering :)
  13. # [00:20] <Hixie> not that i'm anywhere near being able to do anything about it what with all this web forms work, but, anyone know if the svg group made any progress on the svg in text/html thing?
  14. # [00:20] <Hixie> just curious
  15. # [00:20] <Hixie> BenMillard: yeah, the order is more usually alphabetic or something (for which <ul> probably makes sense)
  16. # [00:21] <othermaciej> Hixie: I believe they are waiting for feedback from you on their proposal
  17. # [00:21] <Hixie> no, i sent them that feedback
  18. # [00:22] <BenMillard> Hixie, yeah that's what I see
  19. # [00:23] <BenMillard> Hixie, you'll be lucky to find many tag clouds using list markup today, though. :)
  20. # [00:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0852.html
  21. # [00:24] <Hixie> BenMillard: yeah really
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  24. # [00:24] <BenMillard> Hixie, I've seen <div class> in the place of <ul> and <div style> in the place of <li>
  25. # [00:25] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@ip68-5-179-249.oc.oc.cox.net)
  26. # [00:25] <BenMillard> for tag clouds which are just a big clump of links, <p class><a href> <a href> happens
  27. # [00:25] <Hixie> yeah
  28. # [00:25] <Hixie> would be good to convey the semantics somehow
  29. # [00:26] <BenMillard> Hixie, it's trivial to make lists of links display like a clump so I think <ul> is fine
  30. # [00:27] <BenMillard> <a href style> is the most common way to set the frequencies, AFAICT
  31. # [00:27] <BenMillard> where style contains different values of font-size
  32. # [00:27] <othermaciej> Hixie: something chaals said gave me the impression that SVG WG didn't think the ball was in their court
  33. # [00:28] <othermaciej> Hixie: but I can't find the specific email remark that made me think that
  34. # [00:28] <Hixie> ah
  35. # [00:29] <Hixie> i thought last i spoke with shepazu he agreed that it was in their court
  36. # [00:29] <Hixie> i guess i'll speak to them at the TPAC
  37. # [00:29] <Hixie> hopefully i'll be done with wf2 by then
  38. # [00:29] <BenMillard> Hixie, <ul><li><a href title></li>...</ul> seems the best way to me (swapping to <ol> if you order the items in some significant way)
  39. # [00:30] <BenMillard> (typos aside...)
  40. # [00:31] <smedero> SVG in HTML is in the SVG WG
  41. # [00:31] <smedero> ... court: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0861.html
  42. # [00:32] <Hixie> BenMillard: the main thing the visual tag cloud has is an indication of the top terms, which you lose without semantics in audio
  43. # [00:32] <erlehmann> Hixie: i don't really get why you are pushing this hard for continuing SGML markup.
  44. # [00:32] * Hixie checks to make sure he's still in the same universe
  45. # [00:33] <Hixie> come again?
  46. # [00:33] <erlehmann> i mean, there are things it can't do. why not just usi XML then ?
  47. # [00:33] <Hixie> who's using SGML?
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  49. # [00:33] <BenMillard> Hixie, that's what I'd use title for (as well as making the visual experience more specific on-demand)
  50. # [00:33] <erlehmann> Hixie: HTML is SGML.
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  52. # [00:33] <Hixie> erlehmann: HTML5 is not SGML
  53. # [00:34] <Hixie> see section 8.2
  54. # [00:34] <Hixie> in particular the sentence that says "While the HTML form of HTML5 bears a close resemblance to SGML and XML, it is a separate language with its own parsing rules.
  55. # [00:34] <Hixie> [...] This version of HTML thus returns to a non-SGML basis."
  56. # [00:36] <erlehmann> okay, yeah, sorry.
  57. # [00:37] <BenMillard> Hixie, the right-hand column here uses title in the way I describe under the "Tags" heading: http://wakeless.net/archive/2006/12/dom-inspector-release
  58. # [00:38] * Joins: dotjay (n=dotjay@nov5th.plus.com)
  59. # [00:38] <erlehmann> still don't get it. migration of existing sites will be a huge task anyway, closing a few <br> elements may not add much
  60. # [00:39] <BenMillard> Hixie, it has <a href class title rel style> for every entry, which seems excessive :)
  61. # [00:39] <BenMillard> Hixie, but the title values are good, imho
  62. # [00:40] <Philip`> erlehmann: Migration of existing sites is trivial - you just write a <input type=email> or something, and now your site is making use of HTML 5
  63. # [00:40] <smedero> erlehmann: hsivonen did a good job summarizing the history of the "HTML is SGML" confusion in his master's thesis: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/html5-conformance-checker#history
  64. # [00:40] <Philip`> erlehmann: (Migration to XHTML is far harder, because there are hundreds of obscure corner cases you have to cope with, and nobody ever gets them all right)
  65. # [00:41] <erlehmann> Philip`: if i really want to be semantic, it could be a tedious task replacing all the <div>s with <header>, <aside> and whatnot
  66. # [00:41] <Philip`> erlehmann: You're free to waste time if you want, but there's no reason you should do so
  67. # [00:41] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  68. # [00:44] <erlehmann> back to tagclouds. i currently assign custom classes. what exactly would a value attribute's value [sic] say ?
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  70. # [00:52] <erlehmann> i'd be all for it being a value from 0 to 1 on a log scale :)
  71. # [00:53] <gsnedders> hiho
  72. # [00:59] <erlehmann> huhu
  73. # [00:59] <gsnedders> Can I blame jgraham for the speed of Anolis? He bullied me into keeping with Python when I was going to give up and use C++?
  74. # [01:01] <Philip`> Is Python the bottleneck?
  75. # [01:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: For the sub process, more or less
  76. # [01:04] * weinig|away is now known as weinig
  77. # [01:04] <Philip`> It would be nice to try to make it work in Jython
  78. # [01:05] <Philip`> (and then you can use Java to optimise bottlenecks)
  79. # [01:06] <gsnedders> Philip`: http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/file/d0260bea7c0f/anolislib/processes/sub.py#l133 — can you see anyway to optimize that loop?
  80. # [01:07] <Dashiva> Do you have many nodes with no text, tail or attributes?
  81. # [01:08] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Plenty with no attributes
  82. # [01:09] <gsnedders> Hmm… I wonder how much would be saved by cutting out the .items call
  83. # [01:09] * Parts: dotjay (n=dotjay@nov5th.plus.com)
  84. # [01:09] <Philip`> gsnedders: Optimise it to zero cost by never executing it
  85. # [01:09] <Dashiva> Dunno if you'd save anything by using iteritems
  86. # [01:10] <gsnedders> Philip`: :P
  87. # [01:10] <gsnedders> Dashiva: I wasn't meaning that, but that may work a bit
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  89. # [01:11] <Philip`> gsnedders: I'm being mostly serious - that's the best way I've ever found to make things faster
  90. # [01:11] <gsnedders> Philip`: How can I never execute it?
  91. # [01:11] <Dashiva> Is the instance_string_subs list long?
  92. # [01:12] <gsnedders> Dashiva: no
  93. # [01:12] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Normally only three
  94. # [01:12] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Six at most
  95. # [01:12] <Dashiva> Are all elements generic enough to affect all of text, tail and attribs?
  96. # [01:13] <gsnedders> Dashiva: All are to affect text and tail, IIRC
  97. # [01:14] <Philip`> gsnedders: By finding all the places you're executing it, and the redesigning so you don't have to
  98. # [01:14] <Philip`> s/the/then/
  99. # [01:14] <gsnedders> Philip`: Any way to find whether I need to run it is more expensive (at least for the whole loop)
  100. # [01:15] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Well, I'm guessing the tree elements are your biggest factor, so everything you can cut on processing per node will give a relatively good payoff
  101. # [01:15] <Dashiva> If you can eliminate half the subs for attributes, hey
  102. # [01:15] <gsnedders> Dashiva: .iteritems() makes no diff
  103. # [01:17] <Philip`> gsnedders: You could do something like only run it over a small section of the document where you define that the substitutable text must occur, not the entire thing
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  106. # [01:20] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Any condition that eliminates that for loop for attributes makes no difference
  107. # [01:21] <Dashiva> It could be that the actual valid substitutions are dominating
  108. # [01:21] <Dashiva> And then there's nothing you can do
  109. # [01:21] <gsnedders> I think "if identifier in value:" catches most of it
  110. # [01:21] <gsnedders> It's the regex that is the really expensive bit
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  112. # [01:22] <Dashiva> Replace regexp with string substitution :P
  113. # [01:23] <gsnedders> Dashiva: That may be possible…
  114. # [01:32] <Hixie> ok all the types are done!
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  116. # [01:42] <Philip`> All the typos?
  117. # [01:42] <Philip`> Oh, types
  118. # [01:48] <erlehmann> in there any UA doing webforms 2.0 ?
  119. # [01:48] <erlehmann> is
  120. # [01:49] <erlehmann> or rather, parts of it ?
  121. # [01:49] <Hixie> opera 9 does most of it
  122. # [01:49] <Hixie> safari has had bits of it for a while
  123. # [01:49] <Hixie> other than that not much
  124. # [01:50] <Hixie> well, autocomplete is in most of them, and the stuff from wf1 is everywhere, of course
  125. # [01:51] <erlehmann> opera is nice :)
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  128. # [01:55] <Philip`> erlehmann: All browsers are nice, in their own special ways :-)
  129. # [01:56] <erlehmann> Philip`: while i dislike opera for not being free, few others have done so well regarding standards
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  135. # [02:09] <erlehmann> IE has web forms ? i am shocked and apalled.
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  137. # [02:24] <Hixie> well it was a proprietary extension that we co-opted
  138. # [02:24] <Hixie> the spec source contains the text ="">^(?:</
  139. # [02:24] <Hixie> that's... wrong
  140. # [02:28] <erlehmann> how far go the regular expressions ?
  141. # [02:28] <Hixie> ?
  142. # [02:28] <erlehmann> bah, common grammar mistake (i'm not really awake)
  143. # [02:29] <erlehmann> can i use only basic or also extended regexes ?
  144. # [02:29] <Hixie> in what?
  145. # [02:30] <Hixie> oh for pattern=""?
  146. # [02:30] <Hixie> you can use whatever ECMA262 defines
  147. # [02:30] <erlehmann> thx. i'll look it up.
  148. # [02:34] <erlehmann> the spec apparently doesn't say anything about that
  149. # [02:35] <erlehmann> but for the record, wikipedia says ECMA262 has something derived from perl regexes which aren't really POSIX
  150. # [02:39] <erlehmann> oops, my fault, i had read only the second edition - the third edition has regexes in 15.10
  151. # [02:40] <othermaciej> ECMA-262 does define the regexp syntax
  152. # [02:44] <erlehmann> othermaciej: as i said, i got hold of an old PDF that was missing aforementioned section
  153. # [02:45] <othermaciej> all righty
  154. # [02:46] <erlehmann> sadly, that old pdf is the first search result in google and not even hosted by ECMA
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  210. # [13:01] <annevk2> Is the Chromium team planning to replace certain parts of WebKit over time? E.g. http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/list?can=2&q=label:newhttp
  211. # [13:03] <fakeolliej> annevk2: webkit doesn't provide a network stack
  212. # [13:04] <fakeolliej> annevk2: it expects the platform to provide those, just as it expects the platform port to provide the front end API
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  214. # [13:09] <annevk2> ah, so it's similar to Skia? ta
  215. # [13:10] <fakeolliej> annevk2: chrome effectively is its own platform
  216. # [13:10] <fakeolliej> annevk2: a la Qt
  217. # [13:10] <fakeolliej> annevk2: i have a dream that one day they may contribute to the engine itself
  218. # [13:11] <fakeolliej> annevk2: but my experience with adobe and nokia has lowered my expectation for such things :-/
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  220. # [13:31] <annevk2> CSS Namespaces Module in CR, a test suite for it is ready and I was never forced to work on either. That I dislike namespaces is such a myth :)
  221. # [13:36] <hsivonen> how did the WebKit XBL2 & MathML SoC projects go?
  222. # [13:38] <annevk2> if they were a success there would probably have been a blog post...
  223. # [13:39] <annevk2> afaik the Web Forms 2.0 project only landed autofocus, bit disappointing overall
  224. # [13:41] <hsivonen> where did Chrome's old http come from?
  225. # [13:43] <gsnedders> hsivonen: It's new as well
  226. # [13:43] <annevk2> hsivonen, heh, good question :)
  227. # [13:45] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@c-24-130-131-58.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  228. # [13:46] * olliej reappears
  229. # [13:46] <olliej> sorry this system wasn't set to autojoin whatwg
  230. # [13:46] <olliej> :D
  231. # [13:46] <olliej> hsivonen: cpst's project morphed into the general "make jsc faster"
  232. # [13:46] <olliej> rather than the pattern matching stuff
  233. # [13:46] <olliej> or tile matching
  234. # [13:46] <olliej> which is what frostbyte actually does
  235. # [13:47] <olliej> frostbyte == khtml's new js engine
  236. # [13:48] <olliej> the svg filters guy accomplished very little alas (which is not surprising given the level he was at -- i need to understand the us education system better i don't know what any of the crazy names mean)
  237. # [13:48] <olliej> keishi got the firebug api's going
  238. # [13:48] <olliej> even doing the work to jsc to make line number info get passed in appropriately
  239. # [13:48] <olliej> the xbl one didn't really get to completion
  240. # [13:49] <olliej> i think that's it
  241. # [13:54] <annevk2> olliej, wasn't there Web Forms 2.0 and MathML as well?
  242. # [13:55] <olliej> i don't think we had sufficient slots for the mathml person
  243. # [13:55] <olliej> and yes there was a webforms 2 guy
  244. # [13:55] <olliej> however based on my complete absence of rememberance i suspect he may have disappeared into the ether
  245. # [13:56] <hsivonen> olliej: :-( that doesn't sound good
  246. # [13:56] <olliej> hsivonen: yeah
  247. # [13:56] <olliej> i assume he failed
  248. # [13:56] <olliej> but i honestly don't know for sure
  249. # [13:56] * gsnedders should get around to learn C++ so he can take part in two years time
  250. # [13:56] <gsnedders> :P
  251. # [13:56] <gsnedders> *learning
  252. # [13:56] <olliej> gsnedders: you cna work on the inspector
  253. # [13:56] <olliej> html+js+css
  254. # [13:57] <gsnedders> olliej: That doesn't help me learn C++ though :)
  255. # [13:57] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I had hello world -level C++ experience when I started my summer coding
  256. # [13:58] * gsnedders notes the first item on his summer to-do list was ship Anolis 1.0
  257. # [13:58] <gsnedders> That still hasn't happened.
  258. # [13:58] <olliej> hsivonen: you were GSoC type person?
  259. # [13:59] <hsivonen> olliej: I was in 2006, but it was not Google's but a thing imitating SoC
  260. # [13:59] <olliej> ah righto
  261. # [13:59] * gsnedders is too young for GSoC
  262. # [14:00] <hsivonen> (I had much better payment terms that what one gets with SoC)
  263. # [14:00] <olliej> :D
  264. # [14:00] <olliej> $/LoC? ;D
  265. # [14:01] <hsivonen> no, checkpoints instead of all or nothing at the end
  266. # [14:02] <olliej> GSoC has a midway checkpoint
  267. # [14:02] <gsnedders> olliej: Like, "Does it do less than when you started?"
  268. # [14:02] <hsivonen> oh. is that a new thing?
  269. # [14:02] <hsivonen> (I thought they didn't have checkpoints in 2005)
  270. # [14:04] <olliej> hsivonen: maybe -- i haven't done anything in previous years
  271. # [14:13] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  272. # [14:23] <gsnedders> Lachy: You still want to get me on standardssuck.org for HTTP5?
  273. # [14:38] <erlehmann> about SVG in HTML - obviously <object> doesn't suffice, but why ?
  274. # [14:39] <erlehmann> gsnedders: standardssuck.org is true to its name and has only flash video :)
  275. # [14:40] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Actually, FLV is fully documented nowadays :P
  276. # [14:42] <erlehmann> gsnedders: Adobe Flash Player isn't
  277. # [14:43] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Sure, but you can just get the FLV and download that :P
  278. # [14:44] <gsnedders> And SWF is open too
  279. # [14:44] <erlehmann> you bet how often i look around in the source code ...
  280. # [14:45] <gsnedders> erlehmann: ?
  281. # [14:46] <erlehmann> i meant it often comes to me that i look through the source of a web site to find the embedded FLV's url
  282. # [14:46] <gsnedders> erlehmann: ah
  283. # [14:46] <gsnedders> Well, get someone to implement <http://www.adobe.com/devnet/swf/pdf/swf_file_format_spec_v9.pdf> :P
  284. # [14:47] <olliej> gsnedders: open source != standard :D
  285. # [14:47] <gsnedders> olliej: What open source impls are there? There is no open source impl. or standard! :P
  286. # [14:47] <gsnedders> Just a spec! :P
  287. # [14:48] <olliej> gsnedders: isn't there swfdec or some such?
  288. # [14:48] <gsnedders> olliej: Nothing useful in the real world :P
  289. # [14:48] <olliej> righto
  290. # [14:48] * olliej would much rather flash just died
  291. # [14:48] <gsnedders> Partial impls, but no full impls
  292. # [14:48] <gsnedders> Me too, but it won't.
  293. # [14:48] <olliej> but i dont' see that happening in the near future
  294. # [14:48] <olliej> yup
  295. # [14:49] <olliej> like IE it is a bain on our existence
  296. # [14:49] <olliej> (not that gecko and webkit haven't left bits of cruft all over the web)
  297. # [14:49] <erlehmann> gsnedders: gnash ppl already said that this docs don't help
  298. # [14:49] * gsnedders wants Web 2.0 :P
  299. # [14:50] <erlehmann> gsnedders: you are wrong here. this channel is the web 3.11 workgroup
  300. # [14:50] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Nah, we're just documenting Web 1.0
  301. # [14:51] <erlehmann> also, embracing and extending it ;)
  302. # [14:52] <gsnedders> erlehmann: sssh. You don't mention that. The log watchers might see!
  303. # [14:53] <erlehmann> CAN I HAZ PLACEHOLDER ATTRIBUTE ?
  304. # [15:08] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@c-24-130-131-58.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  305. # [15:13] <Lachy> gsnedders, yes
  306. # [15:13] <gsnedders> Lachy: at TPAC?
  307. # [15:13] <Lachy> sure
  308. # [15:14] <Lachy> you can do it with either annevk2 or myself
  309. # [15:14] <Lachy> or marcos, if he'll be there
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  365. # [17:24] * Philip` wonders how the canvas colour discussion has gone from "rgb("+r+","+g+","+b+")" being long and hard to type, to suggesting that people write { red: 0, green: 0.3, blue: 0.6, alpha: 1.0 } instead
  366. # [17:27] <Philip`> At least one of the people writing CSS3 Color clearly had a pro-HSL agenda, so I guess they wouldn't be happy at an API that was specifically for RGB(A) and non-extensible
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  373. # [18:08] <erlehmann> ♖ ♘ ♗ ♕ ♔ ♗ ♘ ♖
  374. # [18:08] <erlehmann> ♙ ♙ ♙ ♙ ♙ ♙ ♙
  375. # [18:08] <erlehmann>
  376. # [18:08] <erlehmann> ♙
  377. # [18:08] <erlehmann>
  378. # [18:08] <erlehmann>
  379. # [18:08] <erlehmann> ♟ ♟ ♟ ♟ ♟ ♟ ♟ ♟
  380. # [18:08] <erlehmann> ♜ ♞ ♝ ♛ ♚ ♝ ♞ ♜
  381. # [18:19] <jcranmer> fixed-width chess pieces are hard to see well
  382. # [18:20] <jcranmer> besides, white's supposed to go first
  383. # [18:24] <Philip`> Depends on whether your IRC client has black-on-white text
  384. # [18:24] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  385. # [18:25] <Philip`> but then I think the king and queen would be the wrong way around
  386. # [18:25] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  387. # [18:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: yeah, they are
  388. # [18:26] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-236-33.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) ("Killin' teh intarwebs")
  389. # [18:28] <Philip`> Not that it makes any practical difference in the gameplay, but it's the principle that matters
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  392. # [18:41] <erlehmann> mine has a) black on white and b) proper unicode support
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  395. # [19:09] <gsnedders> Hixie: Do you have GT4?
  396. # [19:18] <jcranmer> erlehmann: I have white on black and proper unicode support
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  428. # Session Close: Sun Oct 05 00:00:00 2008

The end :)