/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-10-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 07 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> oh i've been here for some time
  4. # [00:04] <Dashiva> Yeah, it just felt like you had gone somewhere else since you were surprised by browsers being messed up :)
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  6. # [00:05] <Hixie> Dashiva: i'm not used to this level of lack of interop and this amount of crashyness on one small feature
  7. # [00:05] <Hixie> even for html, this takes the biscuit
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  10. # [00:09] <Hixie> bbl.
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  32. # [01:44] <Hixie> zcorpan: yt?
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  40. # [02:27] <Hixie> select.add()
  41. # [02:27] <Hixie> second argument
  42. # [02:27] <Hixie> IE: has to be a child of the <select>
  43. # [02:27] <Hixie> Safari: has to be a child of the <select>
  44. # [02:27] <Hixie> Mozilla: has to be a descendant of the <select>
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  46. # [02:29] <Hixie> Opera: has to be an <option> descendant of the <select>
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  53. # [03:45] <jruderman> mozilla's behavior is probably nicest for selects with optgroups
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  55. # [04:32] <olliej> Hixie: you still trapped in <select> hell?
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  88. # [08:37] <hsivonen> sicking: the elements that make a difference as fragment parents are at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/parsing.html#reset-the-insertion-mode-appropriately
  89. # [08:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: I think I moved the finally block from the portable tokenizer to the Java IO driver. It is there because the SAX API contract is specified to require endDocument to be called with finally semantics
  90. # [08:38] <hsivonen> it indeed is a bit annoying sometimes
  91. # [08:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: if you want to spin graphics definitions out of the spec (or make them informative-only in the spec), PostScript Level 2 is probably the right normative reference
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  93. # [08:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: ?
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  96. # [08:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: Re: IRC log about the winding rule and canvas and you saying you'd love to spin stuff out
  97. # [08:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: what compression implementation is breaking HTTP streamingness?
  98. # [08:50] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-171-73.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  99. # [08:50] <olliej> yoyo roc
  100. # [08:51] <roc> gdday
  101. # [08:55] <Hixie> hsivonen: the winding rule thing is i just want a good original reference
  102. # [08:55] <Hixie> hsivonen: spinning things out is that i want a separate spec
  103. # [08:57] <hsivonen> ok. PostScript Level 2 is probably "original" from implementation point of view. I don't know if the concept has been stated earlier elsewhere than PostScript Level 1
  104. # [09:13] <zcorpan> hmm wonder why the forums always get spammed while i'm on vacation
  105. # [09:14] <zcorpan> Hixie: here now
  106. # [09:14] <Hixie> zcorpan: spam issues on the forums
  107. # [09:15] <Hixie> zcorpan: i recommend making a few of the more effective moderators (e.g. the three who contacted me) into admins or some such
  108. # [09:15] <Hixie> hsivonen: the winding rule concept was invented in some paper or other originally, i'm sure
  109. # [09:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: I expect it to be originally from a research paper, yes. But if the details changed at all between that paper and PS Level 2, PS Level 2 compat is what drives libraries
  110. # [09:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: it's a pretty simple concept, i dunno how it could really change. but what do i know. :-)
  111. # [09:19] <zcorpan> Hixie: who contacted you?
  112. # [09:28] <zcorpan> i've made mskinner admin
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  116. # [09:59] <Philip`> hsivonen: Does any contract require XmlSerializer.endDocument() to call OutputStream.close()? (I don't see why the serialiser would think it should take over control of the whole stream like that...)
  117. # [10:02] <Hixie> zcorpan: ryan jones
  118. # [10:02] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  119. # [10:03] <Hixie> oh and the other was mskinner again
  120. # [10:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: no, but that's the resonable behavior when you have one-to-one mapping with ContentHandler and OutputStream
  121. # [10:16] * hsivonen finally managed to visualize the object relationships in Gecko's HTML and XML parsers
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  124. # [10:23] <Philip`> hsivonen: It seems like there often isn't a one-to-one relationship, e.g. you'd often be serialising the document into an HTTP response where you've already written some header stuff to the stream, so the stream is not exclusively owned by the ContentHandler
  125. # [10:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: conceptually, the OutputStream you write XML to isn't the same OutputStream you write HTTP headers to but another OutputStream that just happens to delegate to the HTTP keep-alive-level stream
  126. # [10:25] <hsivonen> not only conceptually, but in practice, too
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  133. # [11:35] <Philip`> Convincing LaTeX to place figures in the correct location is great fun
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  135. # [11:42] * hsivonen realizes 5 days later than annevk2 that there's now a blog for quoting bits out of the IRC logs http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/
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  137. # [11:56] <Philip`> http://alistapart.com/comments/webstandards2008?page=5#48
  138. # [11:57] <Philip`> I don't think the WHATWG is the right place to come if what you want is a respectful environment
  139. # [12:01] <Philip`> (But it seems to work in terms of getting productive work done that nobody else would be doing)
  140. # [12:01] <olliej> who is that guy? and what's his problem?
  141. # [12:01] <hsivonen> it cuts both ways. the TAG uses a derogatory short name for their HTML5 meta issue (TagSoupIntegration-54)
  142. # [12:01] <olliej> hsivonen: and who/what is TAG?
  143. # [12:03] <hsivonen> olliej: the last week blog says "TAG - W3C Technical Architecture Group - members include Tim Berners Lee"
  144. # [12:03] <annevk2> olliej, http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/
  145. # [12:04] <olliej> okayyy... and there approach to mature debate is to quote people out of context?
  146. # [12:04] * olliej chooses not to pay any attention to such people
  147. # [12:04] <olliej> *their
  148. # [12:04] <Philip`> That blog is not related to the TAG
  149. # [12:04] <olliej> ah
  150. # [12:04] <annevk2> right
  151. # [12:04] <olliej> just a crazy person?
  152. # [12:05] <Philip`> And that blog isn't really quoting out of context - it has plenty of lines of the discussions, and a link to the whole context in the IRC logs
  153. # [12:05] <annevk2> misguided W3C fanboy? dunno :)
  154. # [12:06] <annevk2> I tried figuring it out, but couldn't find anything useful
  155. # [12:06] * hsivonen expects this discussion to show up on the blog
  156. # [12:06] <Philip`> You're still not giving the impression of showing respect and understanding :-p
  157. # [12:07] <annevk2> Philip`, come on, do we have to be politically correct even on IRC?
  158. # [12:07] <annevk2> where is the fun in that
  159. # [12:07] <Philip`> annevk2: I don't mean to suggest that you should be showing respect and understanding
  160. # [12:07] <Philip`> It's boring when people do that
  161. # [12:08] <Philip`> Conflict with outsiders helps the group bind together more closely :-)
  162. # [12:09] * annevk2 likes how it Philip` never grows tired of pointing out flaws
  163. # [12:10] * Parts: olliej (n=oliver@c-24-130-131-58.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  164. # [12:14] <hsivonen> since the blogger seems to be pseudonymous, we can start guessing who (s)he is.
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  168. # [12:16] <mcarter> anyone besides Hixie in the bay area?
  169. # [12:16] <Philip`> hsivonen: Why does Jean-Baptiste Clamence seem to be a pseudonym?
  170. # [12:16] <annevk2> the image is titled marcos.jpg
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  172. # [12:16] <mcarter> i think it'd be neat to do a social event for html5/whatwg
  173. # [12:16] <annevk2> s/titled/named/
  174. # [12:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: the name is a character from a novel by Albert Camus
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  177. # [12:17] <annevk2> mcarter, I'll be in San Francisco / Mountain View in the week of October 26
  178. # [12:17] <Philip`> annevk2: He's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subcomandante_Marcos
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  180. # [12:17] <annevk2> (leaving October 31)
  181. # [12:18] <Philip`> (The person in the photo, not the person who wrote the blog)
  182. # [12:18] * MikeSmith chuckles at the phrase "standards youth"
  183. # [12:18] <annevk2> Philip`, k
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  185. # [12:18] <mcarter> annevk2, perfect, i'll start a wiki and we can see who all can meet up thenabouts
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  194. # [12:25] <roc> woohoo, I've already featured in lastweekinhtml5
  195. # [12:31] <Philip`> roc: You were even emboldened in it, which is a rare privilege
  196. # [12:31] * annevk2 is reminded of http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-August/000054.html for some reason
  197. # [12:32] <Philip`> though clearly they should use <em> instead of <span style="font-weight: bold;"> for that
  198. # [12:33] <annevk2> it seems only natural for an anti-fan blog to do everything wrong :)
  199. # [12:33] <Philip`> (or <em style="font-weight: bold; font-style: normal"> to get the desired presentation)
  200. # [12:34] <Philip`> They're an anti-fan of the WHATWG but presumably a fan of the W3C, and the W3C says you should use semantic elements too :-)
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  212. # [13:30] <krijnh> Oh, more linklove :)
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  216. # [13:37] * Philip` has fun trying to fix a paper which he would not be able to understand at all, had he not spent the past year working on precisely what the paper is talking about
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  230. # [14:04] <Philip`> http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/2008/10/monsieur-sivonen-makes-discovery.html didn't take long
  231. # [14:07] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-171-73.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  232. # [14:12] <annevk2> maybe if we talk about it enough his blog will be filled with us quoting him :p
  233. # [14:13] <Philip`> It'll be an infinite loop of each party saying "hey look, they talked about us! it's like we're famous now"
  234. # [14:14] <Philip`> Eventually we'll write a bot to automate the whole process
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  237. # [14:18] <Dashiva> Philip`: Maybe someone on the inside is making it to draw attention to our IRC channel?
  238. # [14:20] <virtuelv> I really don't get the selective highlighting thing there
  239. # [14:26] <Philip`> Dashiva: You mean a kind of subtle PR campaign to promote the existence of #whatwg?
  240. # [14:35] <hsivonen_> Monsieur Clamence uses <span style="font-size: 85%;"> instead of <big> and <small>
  241. # [14:36] <Philip`> I guess that's what happens when you use the 'font size' dropdown menu in Blogspot's editing interface?
  242. # [14:36] <hsivonen_> that's possible. I haven't used Blogspot from the publisher side
  243. # [14:38] <Philip`> "Meet the WHAT WG Youth" - sounds like he's concerned that we are on his lawn
  244. # [14:38] <krijnh> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_27WEu4KHCYU/SODF7QM1Y_I/AAAAAAAAAAM/6zGKJZWJD1E/S220/marcos.jpg - why is it marcos.jpg?
  245. # [14:38] <hsivonen_> krijnh: the blogger borrowed his face from dictator Marcos
  246. # [14:39] <krijnh> Ah, doh
  247. # [14:39] <krijnh> Never heard of him before :)
  248. # [14:39] <Philip`> (unless it's just meant to be a reference to the Hitler Youth)
  249. # [14:39] <annevk2> also, rtfl
  250. # [14:39] * annevk2 already asked that
  251. # [14:39] <Philip`> (which might be a *little* too extreme)
  252. # [14:41] * krijnh adds Meet the WHAT WG Youth to his subtitles :)
  253. # [14:41] <hsivonen_> oops. I had the wrong Marcos in mind.
  254. # [14:42] * hsivonen_ managed to confuse various political Marcoses
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  256. # [14:44] <Philip`> I have the advantage that I've never heard of any political Marcoses, so I just did an image search for "marcos" and the pipe and balaclava and hat were sufficiently distinctive to recognise him
  257. # [14:45] <virtuelv> Philip`: Ferdinand Marcos?
  258. # [14:45] <hsivonen_> virtuelv: I had Ferdinand in mind, but it's a Mexican Marcos
  259. # [14:45] <Philip`> Strangely Wikipedia gives the impression that he was actually serious and not just clowning around looking like that
  260. # [14:46] <virtuelv> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subcomandante_Marcos then?
  261. # [14:46] <Philip`> virtuelv: Who? :-)
  262. # [14:46] <hsivonen_> virtuelv: yes
  263. # [14:46] <Philip`> virtuelv: That one looks like the picture
  264. # [14:47] <virtuelv> Baader Meinhof syndrome
  265. # [14:47] <virtuelv> I encountered that WP article this morning in an entirely different context
  266. # [14:47] <krijnh> Perhaps it's just Marcos Caceres making a joke :)
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  299. # [17:15] <annevk2> fyi: http://twitter.com/diveintomark/statuses/949726163
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  313. # [18:28] <BenMillard> hsivonen, whoever runs that blog seems pretty small-time
  314. # [18:29] <BenMillard> and nasty
  315. # [18:29] * gsnedders bites
  316. # [18:34] <BenMillard> none of these images have alt text: http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/2008/10/meet-what-wg-youth.html
  317. # [18:34] <BenMillard> although that could be a red herring...
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  319. # [18:47] <BenMillard> doing it anonymously is cowardly
  320. # [18:47] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@80.76.201.52) (Remote closed the connection)
  321. # [18:48] <BenMillard> deliberately choosing unflattering photos says more about the blogger's (or bloggers'?) personality than those photographed, imho
  322. # [18:48] <BenMillard> so the blogger is nasty-minded but too cowardly to own up to it
  323. # [18:48] <BenMillard> that narrows it down
  324. # [18:55] <annevk_win32> tell us when you get him sherlock :)
  325. # [18:55] <BenMillard> heh...it's like Cleudo :)
  326. # [18:55] <BenMillard> annevk_win32, whoever it is, what they're doing can only be good for WHATWG as it shows how petty the criticism has become
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  334. # [19:40] <annevk_win32> there was a time when http://flickr.com/photos/novemberborn/4046399/ was the first hit for my name on image search...
  335. # [19:41] <annevk_win32> anyway, time to go
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  339. # [20:04] <Philip`> I presume the blogger's identity is narrowed down by either being French, or being an actor capable of sounding very French
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  343. # [20:42] <Hixie> so nobody noticed that i added lastweekinhtml5 to the list of ways you can track our community on the wiki? :-)
  344. # [20:42] * Joins: blooberry (n=brian@c-76-126-196-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  345. # [20:43] <Hixie> if the blog was more cleanly set up and more readable, i'd have blogged about it from blog.whatwg.org already
  346. # [20:43] <Hixie> unfortunately while he does link to the irc logs, which is good, he doesn't realy do a good job of highlighting the controversies
  347. # [20:44] <Hixie> it just comes off as a conspiracy nut's blog
  348. # [20:44] <Hixie> it's quite sad really
  349. # [20:44] <Hixie> if it was better layed out it would be much more fun
  350. # [20:45] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-cb74bd8bab2c8d70)
  351. # [20:56] <gsnedders> Hixie: Can we not just invite him to #whatwg-cabel?
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  354. # [21:23] <erlehmann> Hixie: would it make sense to ask for
  355. # [21:24] <erlehmann> a way to mark taglouds up on the mailing list ?
  356. # [21:24] <erlehmann> like @frequency for links or something ?
  357. # [21:25] <erlehmann> (since i'm fairly new, i don't know if it has been discussed and struck down before)
  358. # [21:33] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Nested <em> has always been the conclusion
  359. # [21:33] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-171-73.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  360. # [21:34] <Hixie> nested <em> seems dubious to me, but i don't think we'll add a formal way to do tag clouds
  361. # [21:34] <Hixie> feel free to ask if you want though
  362. # [21:35] <erlehmann> gsnedders: nested em ? why would we neet <strong> then ? also, how semantic is that ?
  363. # [21:35] <erlehmann> need
  364. # [21:35] <gsnedders> erlehmann: strong is importance, em is emphasize per HTML 5
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  366. # [21:36] <Hixie> em is stress
  367. # [21:36] <Hixie> i don't think a tag cloud is strength
  368. # [21:36] <Hixie> is stress even
  369. # [21:36] <Hixie> or strength for that matter
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  372. # [22:04] <webben> erlehmann: I think http://24ways.org/2006/marking-up-a-tag-cloud works reasonably well.
  373. # [22:10] <Philip`> gsnedders: We have a WHATWG cable channel?
  374. # [22:11] <gsnedders> Philip`: I didn't say cable. I don't expect you to read though :)
  375. # [22:12] <Philip`> gsnedders: You didn't say cabal either :-p
  376. # [22:12] <gsnedders> Philip`: No, as that's what everyone thinks exists. We actually called it something else, just to mislead people :)
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  385. # [23:07] <Hixie> is there a unix command line program that takes stdin input, and if it is greater than zero bytes long, outputs a preset line of text followed by stdin?
  386. # [23:07] <Hixie> e.g.: expensive-command-line-that-may-output-warnings | echo-and-cat-if-non-blank "Warnings:"
  387. # [23:09] * fakeolliej is now known as olliej
  388. # [23:12] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@80.76.201.52) (Remote closed the connection)
  389. # [23:17] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E...%3Cform%3E%3Cselect%20name%3Da%20multiple%3E%3Coption%3Ea%3Coption%3Eb%3C%2Fselect%3E%3Cinput%20type%3Drange%20oninput%3D%22a.selectedIndex%20%3D%20value%22%20min%3D-1%20max%3D2%3E%3C%2Fform%3E
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  392. # [23:19] <zcorpan_> Hixie: s/user should/user agent should/g
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  400. # Session Close: Wed Oct 08 00:00:00 2008

The end :)