/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-10-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 09 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] <Dashiva> Is being listed on that lastweek blog a badge of honor yet?
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  7. # [00:15] <virtuelv> wildly off topic, but this is brilliant: http://www.webmonkey.com/blog/YouTube_Commenters_Hear_Their_Own_Gibberish
  8. # [00:15] <virtuelv> every site should have that
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  15. # [00:31] <Hixie> Dashiva: neither really
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  20. # [00:49] <fakeolliej> gsnedders: lame-o -- someone already linked to the penny arcade comic i was thinking of linking to lastweekinhtml
  21. # [00:49] * fakeolliej is now known as olliej
  22. # [00:50] <olliej> oh well, ours not to question the mind of a troll
  23. # [00:50] <olliej> or a trolls troll as the case may be
  24. # [00:52] <Hixie> it's kind of weird that the guy is doing it anonymously, it seems like a perfectly legitimate thing to actually do
  25. # [00:53] <olliej> Hixie: yes, it would be, however his behaviour indicates that he's a troll, and trolls don't want to actually be answerable to anyone
  26. # [00:54] <Dashiva> Maybe he's a performance artist
  27. # [00:54] <Hixie> olliej: if he's trying to troll, he's not doing it right :-)
  28. # [00:54] <olliej> Hixie: hehe
  29. # [00:54] <olliej> Dashiva: heheheh :D
  30. # [00:54] <Hixie> olliej: trolls aren't supposed to be useful and fun :-)
  31. # [00:55] <olliej> Hixie: if he felt he were legitimately critiquing the whatwg (reasonable) he would not have felt the need to be anonymous
  32. # [00:57] <othermaciej> I think I know know who the lastweek troll is
  33. # [00:57] <olliej> oh?
  34. # [00:57] <olliej> i was suspecting one of the people i passed the url to
  35. # [00:58] <othermaciej> just a guess
  36. # [00:58] <olliej> (who is also an avid penny arcade fan :D )
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  39. # [01:03] <othermaciej> no, I mean I think I know who is the author of the last week in html5 blog
  40. # [01:03] <Dashiva> Is it Fake Steve Jobs?
  41. # [01:03] <othermaciej> not the comment that Mr Last Week mistakenly attributed to me
  42. # [01:03] * Dashiva wonders if there will be a Fake Ian Hickson blog one day
  43. # [01:03] <olliej> hehehe
  44. # [01:11] <Hixie> olliej: as far as i can tell he's not critiquing it, just quoting funny things, like bash.org or quotes.burntelectrons.org
  45. # [01:12] <BenMillard> Hixie, the quotes focus on particular focus and the parts which express particular themes are emphasised
  46. # [01:12] <BenMillard> s/particular focus/subjects/
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  49. # [01:29] <Hixie> BenMillard: so do bash.org or quotes.burntelectrons.org
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  51. # [01:35] <BenMillard> Hixie, I didn't notice much focus or attention to particular themes in the selection of quotes those places have...
  52. # [01:37] <Hixie> yeah, i guess
  53. # [01:37] <Hixie> well, whatever. _i_ find it funny. :-P
  54. # [01:38] <BenMillard> Hixie, I guess it takes all sorts to make a world. :)
  55. # [01:38] <Hixie> ok time to work out when the value of a textarea changes
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  57. # [01:44] <Hixie> ok this is ridiculous
  58. # [01:45] <Hixie> who was in charge of forms before me?
  59. # [01:45] <Hixie> i need to have a word with them
  60. # [01:45] <Hixie> in private
  61. # [01:45] <Dashiva> I think you need to talk to Adam Smith then :)
  62. # [01:45] <Hixie> behind a building that happens to back onto a large river
  63. # [01:48] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  64. # [01:49] <Hixie> good lord almighty. IE is disqualified from this race.
  65. # [01:49] * Hixie tries to find SOME interoperability amongst the other UAs
  66. # [01:49] <BenMillard> Hixie, you need some exclamations which are more atheistic. :)
  67. # [01:50] <Hixie> looks like opera and mozilla win the interop competition.
  68. # [01:50] <Hixie> BenMillard: yeah, but athetistic exclamantions sound too flat
  69. # [01:51] <BenMillard> Hixie, such as "Great Scot!" "Good grief!" "Crikey!"
  70. # [01:51] <Hixie> see, they all sound so lame
  71. # [01:51] <BenMillard> it's true :(
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  73. # [01:51] <Hixie> anyway i'm secure enough in my atheism to happily blaspheme in other faiths
  74. # [01:52] <Hixie> (appologies to anyone it might be offending)
  75. # [01:52] <Hixie> apologies, even
  76. # [01:52] <Hixie> i always mistype that work, which is funny, given how much i use it
  77. # [01:52] <Hixie> it looks wrong without any duplicate letters
  78. # [01:52] <BenMillard> word?
  79. # [01:52] <Hixie> word.
  80. # [01:53] <BenMillard> :P
  81. # [01:53] <Dashiva> BenMillard: I always thought it was "Great Scott"
  82. # [01:53] <Hixie> it is
  83. # [01:53] <Dashiva> oh.
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  85. # [01:55] <Philip`> I was going to suggest "Gadzooks!" but that's probably of theistic origin
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  89. # [02:02] <Hixie> Philip`: and lame. :-P
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  94. # [02:20] <Hixie> MikeSmith: you should probably let jules know that i just obliterated his changes and that the html5 spec is autogenerated so if he wants things in it changed he should talk to me
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  96. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, I'm reading mail now.. TimBL is the one who pointed out the link problem. Can you please change http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080609/ to http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-200806010/ ?
  97. # [02:23] <Hixie> already done
  98. # [02:23] <Hixie> not quite sure how that mistake happened, i assume the date of that draft changed from what we'd agreed or something
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  100. # [02:24] <Hixie> it's not like i type those urls in by hand :-)
  101. # [02:25] <Hixie> hsivonen_: would be useful for the validator to give warnings when in-document links are broken (href="#foo" with no id="foo")
  102. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanks
  103. # [02:25] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/stdout.txt already warns about that ("warning: can't find target for #repetition" etc)
  104. # [02:26] <Dashiva> That page would be much more useful without text/html content-type
  105. # [02:26] <Philip`> I blame Hixie :-)
  106. # [02:26] <Hixie> Philip`: ah, interesting
  107. # [02:26] <Hixie> Philip`: i should, like, use that somehow
  108. # [02:27] <Hixie> oh nevermind
  109. # [02:27] <Hixie> this will have far too many false positives
  110. # [02:27] <Hixie> because of all the #refsXXX
  111. # [02:27] <Hixie> hsivonen_: nevermind
  112. # [02:28] <Dashiva> Maybe if he put the ones starting with #refs in a separate section
  113. # [02:28] <Philip`> I don't think the validator's warning output should be specifically tailored to the warnings produced by the HTML5 spec...
  114. # [02:29] <Dashiva> Think of it was a plugin
  115. # [02:29] <Dashiva> *as
  116. # [02:29] <BenMillard> Dashiva, yeah text/plain for stdout.txt would avoid the <h2> and so forth creating unclosed heading elements which make the text grow to dramatic sizes.
  117. # [02:29] <Hixie> MikeSmith: seriously though, if you could let tim know that if there are broken links in the html5 spec he should talk to me instead of having the systeam just inplace edit the draft, that would be great. having a conflict broke my script and wasted at least 10 minutes of my time.
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  119. # [02:34] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'm not in the habit of telling Tim what to do. I'll ask Jules to check with me first if/when anybody reports problems to him about the editor's draft.
  120. # [02:35] <Hixie> k
  121. # [02:40] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Oct/0010.html
  122. # [02:41] <Hixie> ok now that that is fixed, let's go back to <textarea>...
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  127. # [02:50] <BenMillard> Hixie, the 4-links-in-a-heading totally seems like it should work, to me: http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/hidden-barriers/hidden-barriers-multiple-links-in-headings/
  128. # [02:52] <Hixie> i'm confused
  129. # [02:52] <Dashiva> Why does AT software do things like that?
  130. # [02:52] <Hixie> isn't that just an AT bug?
  131. # [02:52] <BenMillard> Hixie, that's what it seems like to me.
  132. # [02:52] <BenMillard> item 3 in the numbered list also seems like it should work if correct punctuation is present, such as: <h1>News (<a href>RSS Feed</a>)</h1>
  133. # [02:53] <Hixie> <h1>News (<a href="">RSS feed</a>)</h1> seems a bit more dubious
  134. # [02:56] <BenMillard> Hixie, yes that specific use-case is hard to justifiy; I meant that <h1>Foo (<a href>Bar</a>)</h1> should read sensible and not sound like a link to "Foo Bar"
  135. # [02:57] <Hixie> agreed
  136. # [02:58] <Dashiva> Hixie, the diffing on google sites kinda sucks, fix it
  137. # [02:58] <Hixie> hm?
  138. # [02:59] <Dashiva> It keeps telling me I deleted the entire page, then added the exact same content back with the new stuff at the end :)
  139. # [02:59] <BenMillard> Dashiva, the description in item 3 makes me think the screen reader announces everything in the heading when a link inside that heading gets focus
  140. # [02:59] <Hixie> Dashiva: i've no idea what you're talking about :-)
  141. # [02:59] <BenMillard> Dashiva, maybe that's helpful much of the time but it does seem doomed to fail in fairly straightforward circumstances.
  142. # [03:00] <Dashiva> Hixie: I know, you're just the closest google guy to pour my annoyances upon :P
  143. # [03:01] <Dashiva> BenMillard: That makes sense, somewhat
  144. # [03:01] <Hixie> Dashiva: if you can give me steps to reproduce the bug from scratch, i can file the bug
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  148. # [03:12] <eric_carlson> Hixie: I'm not sure if you are the right one to bug, but http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ is failing with a 500 error
  149. # [03:16] * Philip` predicts broken .htaccess
  150. # [03:19] <Hixie> eric_carlson: thanks, should be fixed in a few minutes
  151. # [03:20] <eric_carlson> Thanks!
  152. # [03:25] <Hixie> ok dinner time
  153. # [03:25] <Hixie> bbl
  154. # [03:25] <BenMillard> Hixie & Dashiva, I left a comment: http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/hidden-barriers/hidden-barriers-multiple-links-in-headings/#comment-106532
  155. # [03:25] <BenMillard> (actually 2 because I forgot a link the 1st time)
  156. # [03:26] <BenMillard> cool, it turned by straight punctuation into curly punctuation :)
  157. # [03:27] <BenMillard> s/by/my/
  158. # [03:29] <Philip`> BenMillard: If I were you, I wouldn't be able to resist trying to post a comment using punctuation such that its curlification process gets everything wrong...
  159. # [03:33] <BenMillard> Philip`, you're a big meanie!
  160. # [03:34] <Philip`> BenMillard: I knew that already ;-)
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  162. # [03:35] <Philip`> Why does anything exist, if not for people to break it?
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  164. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> I'm wondering if we have documented somewhere the cases in which the existing parsing behavior in IE differs from what parsing algorithm in HTML5.
  165. # [04:02] <takkaria> nope
  166. # [04:02] <takkaria> but there's a lot of them
  167. # [04:06] <takkaria> the main one is that HTML5 already results in trees, and IE doesn't
  168. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> takkaria: OK, I knew about that main one.
  169. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> When I was at Web Directions in Sydney, I was asked why the spec doesn't just document the IE parsing behavior.
  170. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> I mean, in the cases where there are specific differences between parsing behavior in browsers.
  171. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> (and outside of the problem that IE doesn't actually use a tree)
  172. # [04:11] <takkaria> I got the impression that generally the spec was written to be as close to IE as possible but no closer
  173. # [04:11] <takkaria> some things it does are just weird, and other browsers have better behaviour
  174. # [04:11] <takkaria> some things will have been changed for better future extension, I would imagine
  175. # [04:13] <takkaria> but obviously, keeping a list of all IE's behaviour vs. HTML5 behaviour would be prohibitively expensive
  176. # [04:13] <takkaria> because you'd have to be able to reverse IE's algorithm exactly to do that
  177. # [04:24] <MikeSmith> takkaria: I see
  178. # [04:25] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  179. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> What I said to the person who asked me is pretty much the same as "some things it does are just weird, and other browsers have better behaviour"
  180. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> but I couldn't think of any specific cases
  181. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> I'm sure I'll get asked again some time, so I want to educate myself about at least what some of the known cases are.
  182. # [04:29] <takkaria> <select> parsing I believe is weird in IE
  183. # [04:29] <takkaria> I'm sure Hixie will be able to mention a few
  184. # [04:29] <MikeSmith> OK
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  186. # [04:36] <takkaria> Hixie called HTML5 "mostly complete" at the beginning of 2007
  187. # [04:40] <takkaria> some of the differences will also be in how document.write() interacts with parsing
  188. # [04:41] <takkaria> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1155195074&count=1
  189. # [04:42] <takkaria> MikeSmith: also http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1138169545&order=-1&count=5 and other posts with titles starting "Tag Soup"
  190. # [04:45] <MikeSmith> takkaria: thanks
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  206. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> takkaria: thanks again very much for that pointer -- that's pretty much exactly what I was looking for
  207. # [07:40] <krijnh> Philip`: I know, sorry :)
  208. # [08:01] <Hixie> takkaria: mostly complete was right, it still had some features missing but most of the stuff was in.
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  218. # [09:05] <hsivonen_> are there visualizations and/or test cases for crazy multilevel document.write() cases?
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  222. # [09:33] * Hixie does his weekly read though w3c lists to keep up to date
  223. # [09:33] <Hixie> it's amazing how much time some groups spend talking about talking
  224. # [09:33] <Hixie> setting up meetings, etc
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  228. # [09:50] <annevk2> probably because nobody makes a decision beforehand
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  230. # [10:02] <zcorpan> so aiui the svg 1.2 tiny spec is supposed to be proving two interoperable implementations with about 500 test cases
  231. # [10:03] <zcorpan> i didn't understand that "tiny" also referred to the test suite
  232. # [10:03] <annevk2> hahaha
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  237. # [10:24] * annevk2 can't find longdesc on http://juicystudio.com/article/examining-wai-aria-roles.php
  238. # [10:25] <annevk2> and alt is useless "List of ARIA roles with the parent nodes and markup fragment in a table."
  239. # [10:25] <annevk2> sounds more like a title or summary
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  243. # [10:48] <Lachy> Hi everyone, I'm back in Oslo
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  254. # [11:55] <annevk2> Hixie, newValue of the StorageEvent interface is not properly linked
  255. # [11:55] * annevk2 will e-mail
  256. # [12:03] <Philip`> annevk2: Did you see my complaint about your blog?
  257. # [12:09] <annevk2> oh yeah, I read that yesterday evening, not sure what happened
  258. # [12:09] <annevk2> when that happens it means there's a difference between submitting from a textarea and a hidden input
  259. # [12:09] <annevk2> which either means spambot or error in the browser...
  260. # [12:10] <annevk2> or something I'm missing, of course :)
  261. # [12:12] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-84.bredband.comhem.se)
  262. # [12:12] <annevk2> ah wait, it also happens when you use some entities
  263. # [12:13] <zcorpan_> wow i think this is the first time i've come across wf2 being used in the wild
  264. # [12:14] <Philip`> annevk2: I claim I'm not a spambot, and it failed in three independent browsers so I guess it's not an error in the browsers :-)
  265. # [12:14] <Philip`> (I did have some &lt;s and things in the comment)
  266. # [12:15] <zcorpan_> saw a type="email" when requesting automatic payment, can't link to it unfortunately
  267. # [12:16] <annevk2> Philip`, updated the message
  268. # [12:17] <annevk2> maybe I should use a regular expression though then the chance of error will increase :)
  269. # [12:17] <annevk2> for some reason stray & just got passed through and were not found in error by the XML parser
  270. # [12:18] <annevk2> so a comment that contains & after normalizing most entities will not go through
  271. # [12:18] <Philip`> annevk2: So how do I write a '<' character if I'm not allowed to use entities?
  272. # [12:18] <annevk2> not?
  273. # [12:19] <Philip`> ?
  274. # [12:19] <annevk2> I had this plan of making better software at some point, but it never happened
  275. # [12:20] <Philip`> CDATA sections don't work either
  276. # [12:20] <Philip`> All I want to do is give an example of some XML code :-/
  277. # [12:21] <annevk2> make your comment, omit & and I'll fix it for you
  278. # [12:23] <Philip`> Hmm, posted it with full-width less-than/greater-than characters now
  279. # [12:23] <Philip`> which looks ugly but worked
  280. # [12:27] <annevk2> pretty hilarious that localStorage in IE is such a hack
  281. # [12:30] <Philip`> Is localStorage[""] meant to work?
  282. # [12:30] <Philip`> (I think that breaks in IE)
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  284. # [12:35] <Philip`> Is anyone writing test cases for this storage stuff?
  285. # [12:36] <annevk2> maybe Firefox has some?
  286. # [12:36] <annevk2> seems that empty string should work
  287. # [12:36] <annevk2> undefined and null should stringify as Hixie didn't define other behavior
  288. # [12:38] <annevk2> heh, in another channel svl had a funny idea, start a "next week in HTML5" blog
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  294. # [12:54] <billyjackass> "next week in HTML5" would be great
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  297. # [13:28] <annevk2> wilhelm, yay!
  298. # [13:32] <wilhelm> annevk2: I'm not sure if that work should be done in the HTML WG or the Webapps WG, though. Opinions? (c:
  299. # [13:34] <hsivonen_> to me it seems to fall under Webapps mandate, but technically, it needs to be defined in terms of the event loop, which is in the HTML5 spec
  300. # [13:41] <billyjackass> wilhelm: what particular work are you referring to?
  301. # [13:42] <wilhelm> Timers (setTimeout, clearTimeout, setInterval, clearInterval). See my mail on public-html.
  302. # [13:44] <billyjackass> OK
  303. # [13:44] * billyjackass is now known as MikeSmith
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  306. # [14:01] <annevk2> wilhelm, WebApps
  307. # [14:02] <annevk2> wilhelm, references to HTML5 should be ok, though there will be some political arguments over it :)
  308. # [14:05] <MikeSmith> yeah
  309. # [14:05] <tiglionabbit> hi guys
  310. # [14:05] <MikeSmith> wilhelm: WebApps is the new W3C
  311. # [14:05] <tiglionabbit> I shoulda gotten into this quite a while ago
  312. # [14:06] <tiglionabbit> I was reading through the differences doc, and I thought about a few things
  313. # [14:06] <tiglionabbit> first off, I heard rumors years ago that href was going to be a global attribute
  314. # [14:06] <tiglionabbit> why hasn't that happened?
  315. # [14:06] <zcorpan_> tiglionabbit: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#HTML5_should_support_href_on_any_element.21
  316. # [14:08] <tiglionabbit> hm
  317. # [14:09] <tiglionabbit> I still think it should, but oh well.
  318. # [14:10] <zcorpan_> have you read eric meyer's blog on this?
  319. # [14:10] <tiglionabbit> when I was reading the form differences, I thought -- you know, people often use this pattern where they insert some grey placeholder text in a text input / textarea and then remove it when you focus it. If that was added as an attribute, that would save me from a lot of terrible implementations of this
  320. # [14:10] <tiglionabbit> zcorpan_: link?+
  321. # [14:11] <zcorpan_> http://meyerweb.com/eric/html-xhtml/html5-linking.html
  322. # [14:11] <zcorpan_> that would be placeholder='', implemented in webkit
  323. # [14:11] <annevk2> we'll likely add a placeholder attribute at some point
  324. # [14:11] <tiglionabbit> cool
  325. # [14:23] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  326. # [14:24] <tiglionabbit> one thing I was surprised about reading the differences doc was this phrase: "The new content model concepts (replacing HTML 4's block and inline concepts)." -- now, this doesn't mean 'display:block' is going to be dropped from css, does it?
  327. # [14:27] <virtuelv> no
  328. # [14:27] <virtuelv> it doesn't
  329. # [14:27] <tiglionabbit> so those concepts still exist
  330. # [14:28] <zcorpan_> tiglionabbit: html4's block and inline concepts have nothing to do with css
  331. # [14:28] <tiglionabbit> by that you mean just the rules, like blocks can't go inside inlines?
  332. # [14:28] <zcorpan_> yeah
  333. # [14:29] <zcorpan_> the content model concerns how you can nest elements
  334. # [14:29] <zcorpan_> css concerns how things are rendered
  335. # [14:29] <zcorpan_> they are orthogonal
  336. # [14:29] <tiglionabbit> so you'd consider the default styles for various elements to still be in the domain of css
  337. # [14:29] <zcorpan_> yes
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  339. # [14:30] <tiglionabbit> man I wish IE would support inline-block, btw
  340. # [14:30] <zcorpan_> ie8 should support it in its ie8 mode
  341. # [14:30] <tiglionabbit> what is ie8 mode
  342. # [14:30] <zcorpan_> what they call "standards mode"
  343. # [14:31] <tiglionabbit> is it still triggered by using a doctype, any doctype?
  344. # [14:32] <zcorpan_> it depends on whether you're in an intranet or on the web, and on meta tags, and http headers, and doctypes, and the phase of the moon
  345. # [14:33] <tiglionabbit> just like encountering werewolves in nethack
  346. # [14:38] <tiglionabbit> *skims* aww, no years outside the 0-9999 limit. Reminds me when I was showing my friend scaffolding in rails and he wanted to make an application about dinosaurs, and their extinction dates
  347. # [14:40] <tiglionabbit> also, the <ruby> element -- that's existed for years, hasn't it? I know it's been in all sorts of books, but I don't think it did anything
  348. # [14:40] <hsivonen_> tiglionabbit: <ruby> is supported in IE5.5+
  349. # [14:41] <hsivonen_> tiglionabbit: the Gregorian calendar wasn't around for dinosaurs
  350. # [14:42] <tiglionabbit> hsivonen_: I know, but this format supports the julian calendar too (not that any calendar existed back then)
  351. # [14:42] <tiglionabbit> I was just chuckling, not making a suggestion
  352. # [14:44] <hsivonen_> tiglionabbit: actually, HTML5 does *not* support the Julian calendar
  353. # [14:44] <hsivonen_> (definitely on the wrong side of the 80/20 rule)
  354. # [14:46] <tiglionabbit> oops, misread that comment on converting julian to gregorian
  355. # [14:48] <tiglionabbit> btw, the form attribute -- does that mean you can now pull things like <form id="form" action="stuff" /> <input type="text" form="form" /> ?
  356. # [14:48] <tiglionabbit> that would be handy in situations where you want to have a different form on each table row, since you wouldn't be allowed to wrap <tr>s with <form>s
  357. # [14:49] <tiglionabbit> speaking of which, will it become legal to wrap <tr>s and <li>s with meta elements like <form> and <a> and such?
  358. # [14:49] <hsivonen_> tiglionabbit: yes (except in text/html, you need <form ...></form> instead of <form .../>)
  359. # [14:50] <zcorpan_> and no, it's not allowed to wrap <tr>s and <li>s in <form> or <a>
  360. # [14:50] <tiglionabbit> hm
  361. # [14:50] <hsivonen_> (and won't be for legacy compat reasons)
  362. # [14:51] <tiglionabbit> can we follow this pattern a little further and dissociate <a>s from their hrefs? Like, <link id="google" href="http://google.com" /> <a link="google">search</a>
  363. # [14:51] <tiglionabbit> would help to not repeat yourself, kinda like the way datalist helps
  364. # [14:52] <tiglionabbit> also, it would be kinda like markdown
  365. # [14:52] <zcorpan_> i pushed for <form><tr> to be allowed back in ... 2005/2006, i think, making it parsed and styled like <tbody>, but it was rejected. form='' covers the use-case anyway
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  370. # [14:54] <tiglionabbit> you know, [whatwg][5] and then later on [5]:"www.whatwg.org"
  371. # [14:54] <zcorpan_> if you don't like typing html, you can type markdown and convert it to html
  372. # [14:55] <tiglionabbit> :P I suppose
  373. # [14:55] <tiglionabbit> but I'm not voicing against html here, but repetition of the same url within a document
  374. # [14:56] <zcorpan_> your suggested solution isn't backwards compatible
  375. # [14:57] <zcorpan_> you can use the internal subset with xhtml5
  376. # [14:57] <tiglionabbit> use what?
  377. # [14:58] <zcorpan_> <!DOCTYPE html [ <!ENTITY google "http://google.com"> ]> ... <a href="&google;">
  378. # [14:59] <tiglionabbit> what's that?
  379. # [14:59] <tiglionabbit> where can I read about this stuff
  380. # [15:00] <zcorpan_> the xml spec i guess
  381. # [15:00] <hsivonen_> specifiers of XML5 won't be happy with you if you use the internal subset
  382. # [15:00] <zcorpan_> hsivonen_: anne has already specced the internal subset
  383. # [15:00] <tiglionabbit> I had never heard of the eclectic sgml they mentioned like <em/content/
  384. # [15:01] <hsivonen_> zcorpan_: perhaps it's too late to zap the internal subset :-(
  385. # [15:01] <tiglionabbit> but now I want to know
  386. # [15:01] <zcorpan_> hsivonen_: yes. it needs to be supported for compat with svg images output by some popular tool at least
  387. # [15:02] <tiglionabbit> is inkscape that popular tool or no
  388. # [15:02] <hsivonen_> tiglionabbit: Illustrator
  389. # [15:02] <tiglionabbit> oh...
  390. # [15:02] <hsivonen_> zcorpan_: or alternatively, the illustrator entities could be predefined
  391. # [15:02] <zcorpan_> hsivonen_: heh
  392. # [15:03] <ROBOd> guys, sorry for interrupting: what's the problem with http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ ?
  393. # [15:03] <ROBOd> i get internal server error
  394. # [15:07] <tiglionabbit> oh hey, it's now legal to have attributes with no value, like <video controls> ? What does that look like to javascript?
  395. # [15:09] <jcranmer> that's been legal since, oh, forever (or somehting close to that)!
  396. # [15:10] <tiglionabbit> stuff like input checked?
  397. # [15:10] <tiglionabbit> hm
  398. # [15:10] <tiglionabbit> I never did experiment with that -- would always be pedantic and say checked="true"
  399. # [15:10] <annevk2> which would be wrong
  400. # [15:10] <tiglionabbit> damn
  401. # [15:11] <tiglionabbit> how do you interact with those attributes with javascript then?
  402. # [15:11] <jcranmer> the correct value would be checked="checked"
  403. # [15:12] <tiglionabbit> oh..
  404. # [15:12] <annevk2> the W3C validator doesn't check for correct values
  405. # [15:12] <zcorpan_> tiglionabbit: <video controls> is exactly equivalent to <video controls="">
  406. # [15:12] <annevk2> validator.nu does
  407. # [15:13] <zcorpan_> annevk2: it checks for enumerated and boolean attributes
  408. # [15:13] <annevk2> oh
  409. # [15:14] <zcorpan_> and NUMBER attributes in html4
  410. # [15:14] <zcorpan_> e.g. tabindex
  411. # [15:15] <zcorpan_> though XML DTDs don't have NUMBER and so tabindex is CDATA in xhtml
  412. # [15:15] <annevk2> hmm, I think I would've been happy if I remained ignorant of that :)
  413. # [15:15] <tiglionabbit> is id="5" still illegal?
  414. # [15:16] <zcorpan_> it wasn't in html4 but is in html5
  415. # [15:16] <zcorpan_> er
  416. # [15:16] <zcorpan_> i got that backwards
  417. # [15:16] <tiglionabbit> :B
  418. # [15:17] <zcorpan_> ids in html5 can be anything but the emty string and can't contain whitespace
  419. # [15:17] <tiglionabbit> Since there are no DTDs, does that mean we can't go wild and stick arbitrary tag names in?
  420. # [15:17] <zcorpan_> right
  421. # [15:17] <tiglionabbit> I noticed in quirksmode in firefox css will work on arbitrary tag names
  422. # [15:18] <tiglionabbit> which made me want that to work in IE, but I never researched it enough
  423. # [15:18] <zcorpan_> works in standards mode too
  424. # [15:18] <zcorpan_> works in ie if you do createElement('foobar') first
  425. # [15:18] <tiglionabbit> for every occurence or just once?
  426. # [15:19] <zcorpan_> just once
  427. # [15:19] <tiglionabbit> interesting
  428. # [15:19] <zcorpan_> it makes ie treat such tags the same as it does for tags with colons in them
  429. # [15:20] <tiglionabbit> do you guys consider it bad to make up one's own tags?
  430. # [15:20] <tiglionabbit> I suppose that's allowed in xml mode?
  431. # [15:20] <zcorpan_> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#HTML5_should_support_a_way_for_anyone_to_invent_new_elements.21
  432. # [15:24] * zcorpan_ wonders what the bookkeeping class is for in the spec source
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  434. # [15:27] <tiglionabbit> so that says data-* elements are safe -- is this true in earlier html versions?
  435. # [15:27] <tiglionabbit> *attributes
  436. # [15:27] <zcorpan_> yes... but they aren't valid in earlier versions
  437. # [15:29] * Joins: smerp (n=smerp@66.192.95.199)
  438. # [15:29] <tiglionabbit> yeah but that whole 'validity' thing never really mattered, right :P
  439. # [15:29] <zcorpan_> why not?
  440. # [15:30] <tiglionabbit> nothing bad happens?
  441. # [15:31] <zcorpan_> something bad happens when html n+1 introduces a new attribute with the same name as the one you invented
  442. # [15:31] <zcorpan_> some pages broke in opera when we implemented wf2
  443. # [15:32] <tiglionabbit> wf2?
  444. # [15:33] <zcorpan_> though, to be fair, many of the problems were with dom attributes clashing with author's custom properties, and those are not checked in a validator (and authors are allowed to make up their own properties)
  445. # [15:33] <zcorpan_> web forms 2
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  447. # [15:34] <tiglionabbit> properties != attributes?
  448. # [15:34] <zcorpan_> and <input name>, <foo id> etc clutter the dom
  449. # [15:35] <tiglionabbit> properties are attributes without values?
  450. # [15:36] <zcorpan_> no
  451. # [15:36] <zcorpan_> you have properties on objects in javascript
  452. # [15:36] <tiglionabbit> ohh
  453. # [15:37] <tiglionabbit> those properties
  454. # [15:38] <tiglionabbit> btw, does anyone ever use the tbody tag?
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  460. # [16:04] <zcorpan_> Hixie: afaict, clicking a label fires a click event at the associated form control, which might bubble up to the label again (but the second click event won't fire a third click event)
  461. # [16:06] <zcorpan_> Hixie: when clicking a link (or any other interactive element) in a label, the click event when bubbling through the label doesn't (or shouldn't) fire a click event on the associated form control
  462. # [16:07] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-133-222.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  463. # [16:07] <zcorpan_> though i haven't tested all form controls
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  466. # [16:13] <Philip`> tiglionabbit: Loads of people use <tbody>, though maybe just because their tool emits it automatically
  467. # [16:14] <Philip`> tiglionabbit: e.g. http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/tag/tbody says 647 pages out of 7739 contain at least one <tbody>
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  474. # [16:38] <hsivonen_> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/69913/why-dont-self-closing-script-tags-work
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  476. # [16:44] * annevk2 does not have enough power to downvote
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  478. # [16:45] <hsivonen_> annevk2: would you downvote the accepted answer?
  479. # [16:46] <annevk2> I tried
  480. # [16:46] <annevk2> zcorpan_, I think he knows that, we figured out activation behavior some time ago
  481. # [16:46] <hsivonen_> annevk2: you need 100 experience to gain a level :-)
  482. # [16:47] <annevk2> zcorpan_, I think the idea was that it would be defined in DOM3Events, but you know...
  483. # [16:47] <annevk2> hsivonen_, I got 3 upvotes today but I'm still 41
  484. # [16:48] <annevk2> not that it would make me 100, but still
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  495. # [17:39] <zcorpan_> Hixie: the forums give a 500
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  501. # [17:57] <annevk2> zcorpan_, seems fine now
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  532. # [20:57] <Hixie> annevk2, zcorpan_: send mail for feedback, i'm swamped right now
  533. # [20:57] <Hixie> multipage copy should be fixed now
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  542. # [21:16] * weinig is now known as weinig|food
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  547. # [21:25] <Hixie> lastweekinhtml5 has beecome very meta
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  549. # [21:25] <Hixie> it's now a blog about people talking about the blog on irc
  550. # [21:29] <zcorpan_> you guys should stop talking about the blog to make the blog more interesting
  551. # [21:30] <gavin> that's funny
  552. # [21:30] <gavin> hadn't heard of that blog before
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  554. # [21:35] <Hixie> xml loses another devoted follower http://uberbrady.blogspot.com/2007/01/misguided.html
  555. # [21:36] <Hixie> funny how xml loses followers whenever they start having to do actual real work with xml
  556. # [21:36] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-04c8c8e19a378522)
  557. # [21:38] <smedero> hixie: I assume you meant to link to this: http://uberbrady.blogspot.com/2008/10/horrifically-bad-technology.html
  558. # [21:38] <gsnedders> Hixie: Wrong link?
  559. # [21:38] <smedero> but both are fun reads
  560. # [21:38] <Hixie> er yes
  561. # [21:38] <Hixie> my bad
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  568. # [22:04] <gsnedders> Challenge: describe me in a paragraph.
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  571. # [22:15] <csarven> gsnedders That guy from IRC.
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  573. # [22:18] * fakeolliej is now known as olliej
  574. # [22:19] <gsnedders> csarven: heh.
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  577. # [22:26] <csarven> gsnedders If I knew your OpenID, I would have said that instead :)
  578. # [22:26] <gsnedders> csarven: :)
  579. # [22:27] <gsnedders> csarven: I've actually managed to not have an OpenID.
  580. # [22:27] <csarven> Well, you have an hCard here http://gsnedders.com/ so there you go. gsnedders is http://gsnedders.com/
  581. # [22:28] <gsnedders> gsnedders is someone who ought to cut his finger nails currently.
  582. # [22:33] <csarven> gsnedders Might want to put an @id on <address> so you can refer to that specific hCard if it happens to be that you have other hCards on a page.
  583. # [22:35] * hsivonen_ mumbles something about URIs as identifiers of Web resources vs. URIs as identifiers of people
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  608. # [23:46] <BenMillard> annevk2, yeah...I wonder why <blockquote><table> wasn't used: http://juicystudio.com/article/examining-wai-aria-roles.php
  609. # [23:47] <BenMillard> maybe the way it looks is important and creating a <style> block to override the site's author stylesheet was too much work
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  612. # Session Close: Fri Oct 10 00:00:00 2008

The end :)