/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-10-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Oct 11 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:25] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  4. # [00:26] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
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  6. # [00:40] <annevk2> Hixie, can't you be on the panel?
  7. # [00:40] <Hixie> i'll be editing html5.
  8. # [00:40] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  9. # [00:41] <annevk2> hmm, what if I edit it an hour for you (preferably a different hour, so I can watch the show :) )
  10. # [00:41] <Hixie> i don't see the point in participating. what difference does it make if the webarch document changes, even if we do convince people to change it?
  11. # [00:42] <annevk2> i was mostly concerned with the entertainment value
  12. # [00:42] <Hixie> if you want entertainment... the meeting is in a casino.
  13. # [00:42] <Hixie> and gsnedders and BenMillard will have a PS2
  14. # [00:46] <annevk2> i think i'd have more of a laugh during that panel, but we'll see :)
  15. # [00:49] <annevk2> Philip`, dunno
  16. # [00:49] <annevk2> (re wildcard domains)
  17. # [00:50] * Philip` is trying to write some quick tests, but forgot how buggy browsers are
  18. # [00:51] <Philip`> (My current problem is that I can add a certain key into Firefox's globalStorage, which is impossible to remove again)
  19. # [00:52] <Philip`> annevk2: Is there a thing where you can type in subdomain names and IPs, so you could put something like "*.philip" in the subdomain thing and point it at my server?
  20. # [00:52] <annevk2> I can make a custom DNS record
  21. # [00:52] <annevk2> I'm not sure if it does wildcards
  22. # [00:52] <annevk2> but give me an IP and I'll try
  23. # [00:53] <Philip`> 92.243.11.39 would be nice
  24. # [00:54] <annevk2> "We have now added the A record for *.philip.html5.org with value 92.243.11.39. Our DNS servers will start serving this record within a couple of minutes."
  25. # [00:55] <Hixie> if that works i'll be impressed
  26. # [00:55] <Philip`> $ hostx foo.philip.html5.org ns1.dreamhost.com
  27. # [00:55] <Philip`> foo.philip.html5.org A 92.243.11.39
  28. # [00:56] <Philip`> Looks like that does work - thanks!
  29. # [00:56] <Hixie> wow
  30. # [00:56] <Hixie> i am shocked
  31. # [00:56] <Hixie> that's awesome
  32. # [00:56] <Hixie> time to set up wildcard domains everywhere!
  33. # [00:56] * Philip` wonders what to do now that he has control of an infinite number of origins
  34. # [00:56] <Hixie> not infinite
  35. # [00:56] <Hixie> just very very large
  36. # [00:57] <Hixie> (dns names are length-limited and character-set limited)
  37. # [00:57] <Philip`> Close enough to infinite for all practical purposes :-)
  38. # [00:57] <Philip`> and for many impractical purposes too
  39. # [00:57] <annevk2> btw, DreamHost still claims www.philip and ftp.philip, fwiw
  40. # [00:58] * Hixie turned off ftp
  41. # [00:58] <annevk2> ok, both btw and fwiw is a bit too much
  42. # [00:58] <Hixie> and you can turn off www, iirc
  43. # [00:58] <Hixie> dunno if that affects dns though
  44. # [00:58] <annevk2> I thought you could only make it redirect
  45. # [00:58] <annevk2> (which I do for all sites)
  46. # [01:00] <Hixie> hm maybe
  47. # [01:00] <Hixie> i thought you could disable it
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  49. # [01:00] <Hixie> i forget
  50. # [01:02] * Parts: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
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  52. # [01:12] <Philip`> Is there a way to clear globalStorage in Firefox?
  53. # [01:12] <Philip`> (via the UI)
  54. # [01:13] <annevk2> btw, I can probably make *.philip.html5.org point back to the same server as philip.html5.org if you want
  55. # [01:13] <annevk2> why are you testing something that's removed from the specification?
  56. # [01:13] <Hixie> annevk2: that won't work
  57. # [01:13] <Hixie> annevk2: because philip.html5.org, if it's dreamhost, is a virtual server
  58. # [01:14] <annevk2> hmm yeah, I suppose it would be a bit unclear where the requests go
  59. # [01:14] <Philip`> It's apparently possible to set ServerAlias *.example.com in Apache, but I don't know if Dreamhost supports that
  60. # [01:15] <Hixie> you might be able to ask them for it
  61. # [01:15] <annevk2> Hixie, though actually, it seems all my domains have a unique value for the A record, so maybe it's possible
  62. # [01:15] <Hixie> annevk2: it's not a dns problem, it's an apache problem
  63. # [01:16] <Philip`> annevk2: Because it's kind of close to localStorage, which makes it easier to attempt to write tests for localStorage and to discover likely bugs
  64. # [01:19] <gavin> Philip`: at the bottom of Options->Advanced->Network, perhaps?
  65. # [01:20] <gavin> Philip`: there's also "Offline Website data" in Tools->Clear Private Data
  66. # [01:20] <Philip`> gavin: That Network -> Offline Storage thing seems different, since the list is empty and 'clear now' doesn't clear globalStorage
  67. # [01:21] <Philip`> gavin: Clear Private Data doesn't seem to clear it, either
  68. # [01:21] <annevk2> oops
  69. # [01:21] <gavin> uh, that sounds like a bug
  70. # [01:21] <gavin> I'm not really familiar with the various *storages
  71. # [01:21] <gavin> file a bug, cc dcamp?
  72. # [01:26] <annevk2> does anyone have a bot hitting html5.org a lot?
  73. # [01:27] <Hixie> not to my knowledge
  74. # [01:27] <Philip`> Oh, looks like clearing cookies works, as long as you restart the browser
  75. # [01:27] <Hixie> which pages?
  76. # [01:27] <Philip`> annevk2: Google might have one
  77. # [01:27] * Philip` keeps getting a x\uFFFDy key which he seems unable to delete
  78. # [01:27] <annevk2> it's not really a problem, but there is this thing that hits its 170000 times a month and probably more and identifies itself as "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 5.0)"
  79. # [01:28] <annevk2> and one that does it 20000+ and says "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 5.0) Fetch API Request"
  80. # [01:28] <Philip`> From the same IP?
  81. # [01:28] <Hixie> neither of those are google
  82. # [01:28] <annevk2> no
  83. # [01:28] <Hixie> unless we have a rogue server
  84. # [01:28] <Hixie> (which is possible)
  85. # [01:28] <Hixie> which IPs?
  86. # [01:28] <annevk2> Google respects robots.txt no?
  87. # [01:29] <Hixie> unless we have a bug
  88. # [01:29] <Hixie> (which is possible)
  89. # [01:29] <annevk2> it's hitting /tools/web-apps-tracker which is not allowed to be indexed
  90. # [01:29] <Hixie> which IPs?
  91. # [01:29] <annevk2> nr1 IP is 203.162.3.165 but that's only 6000
  92. # [01:29] <Hixie> maybe that's why i was feeling the pain from html5.org :-)
  93. # [01:29] <annevk2> nr 2 is 203.160.1.70 with 4000
  94. # [01:29] <Hixie> 203.162.3.165 is in vietnam, of all places
  95. # [01:30] <Hixie> 203.162.3.165 appears to be a spam harvester
  96. # [01:31] <Hixie> 203.160.1.70 looks like it's related
  97. # [01:32] <annevk2> maybe a simple solution for now would be to just ban IE 5.5 :)
  98. # [01:34] * Joins: hdh000 (n=hdh@58.187.61.132)
  99. # [01:37] <Hixie> so does any browser support <form accept-charset> ?
  100. # [01:38] <Philip`> I thought they all did
  101. # [01:39] <annevk2> making some UTF-8 page, declare windows-1252 in that attribute, and see what happens?
  102. # [01:39] <annevk2> s/making/make/
  103. # [01:39] <Philip`> since I'm fairly sure I've had to use it to make forms always submit UTF-8
  104. # [01:39] <Hixie> i can't get forms to submit as anything but utf-8
  105. # [01:40] <annevk2> http://twitter.com/waka/statuses/953993561
  106. # [01:41] * annevk2 has not tried charsets+forms, but thinks that what Hixie says is weird
  107. # [01:41] <Hixie> fixed
  108. # [01:42] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/misc/form.html
  109. # [01:43] <Philip`> First goes to http://philip.html5.org/misc/form.html?foo=t%E9st, second goes to http://philip.html5.org/misc/form.html?foo=t%C3%A9st
  110. # [01:43] <Philip`> in Opera 9.5 and Firefox 3
  111. # [01:43] <annevk2> confirmed
  112. # [01:43] <Philip`> ...but not IE8
  113. # [01:43] <Hixie> add <input type=hidden name=_charset_> to those forms?
  114. # [01:44] <Philip`> Done
  115. # [01:45] <Hixie> they all send back C3 A9 when i paste it into the live dom viewer
  116. # [01:46] <annevk2> Opera is consistent, IE6 does iso always for Philip`'s example
  117. # [01:46] <Philip`> What if you do accept-charset=iso-8859-1 explicitly?
  118. # [01:46] <Hixie> same
  119. # [01:46] <Hixie> always utf-8
  120. # [01:46] <Hixie> i wonder why
  121. # [01:47] <annevk2> so for a UTF-8 page accept-charset is ignored?
  122. # [01:47] <Hixie> could be
  123. # [01:47] <annevk2> it makes some sense
  124. # [01:47] <Philip`> Hmm, IE8 is a bit buggy - now that I have three identical forms on that page, it puts inconsistent spacing between them :-/
  125. # [01:47] <Hixie> Philip`: can you make a copy of that page for utf-8?
  126. # [01:48] <annevk2> and utf-16 pretty please?
  127. # [01:48] <Hixie> also if you could cook me dinner that'd be awesome
  128. # [01:49] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/charset/form/
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  130. # [01:50] <annevk2> the utf-16 page is utf-8
  131. # [01:51] <Philip`> That's because I haven't finished writing it :-)
  132. # [01:51] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-133-222.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  133. # [01:51] <Philip`> Ahh, help!
  134. # [01:51] <Philip`> I pressed alt+right in IE8, and now the menu bar and toolbar and everything has slid off the top of the screen
  135. # [01:51] <Philip`> and I can't work out how to get it back
  136. # [01:52] <annevk2> the UTF-8 one works identical to the ISO encoded one in Opera/Firefox
  137. # [01:52] <annevk2> that is, accept-charset is acknowledged
  138. # [01:52] <gsnedders> BenMillard: If you don't have it, get my phone number from http://stuff.gsnedders.com/http-parsing.html
  139. # [01:52] <gsnedders> BenMillard: probably the only safe way to contact me until TPAC now
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  141. # [01:54] <Philip`> annevk2: (UTF-16 is there now)
  142. # [01:55] <Hixie> i don't understand what IE is doing
  143. # [01:55] <Hixie> IE8b2
  144. # [01:55] <Hixie> it doesn't work at all half the time
  145. # [01:55] <Philip`> Hixie: I've got your dinner ready here, you'd better come now or it'll get cold
  146. # [01:56] <Hixie> :-)
  147. # [01:56] <annevk2> hmm, in Opera default will say _charset_ UTF-8
  148. # [01:56] <annevk2> in Firefox it says UTF-16LE but seems to submit UTF-8
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  153. # [02:01] * Philip` adds POST to those pages
  154. # [02:01] <Hixie> oh i know what's confusing me
  155. # [02:01] <Hixie> <meta charset> is ignored if you're document.write()ing
  156. # [02:01] <Hixie> so all these docs are utf-8 when i put them in the dom viewer
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  159. # [02:18] <Hixie> hmm
  160. # [02:18] * Hixie learns of a security vulnerability caused by flash allowing Content-Type to be set cross-domain
  161. # [02:19] <olliej> yay flash!
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  166. # [02:58] <weinig> Hixie: really?!
  167. # [03:00] <sicking> Hixie, "set cross-domain"?
  168. # [03:01] <Hixie> as in, for a cross-domain request
  169. # [03:03] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-e01961b19ac7d123) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  170. # [03:04] <sicking> Hixie, ah
  171. # [03:04] * Quits: hdh000 (n=hdh@58.187.61.132) (Remote closed the connection)
  172. # [03:04] <sicking> Hixie, i thought they only allowed that when there was a crossdomain.xml file there?
  173. # [03:05] <Hixie> apparently not, though even if that was that was the case, given how easy it is to trick a server into serving a crossdomain.xml file...
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  179. # [03:43] <Hixie> WF2 integration status: 100% [#############] Please Stand By...
  180. # [03:43] <Hixie> WF2 integration status: Complete.
  181. # [03:44] <Hixie> well, mostly. i still need to go through and copy examples over and do a thorough review of the material in wf2 to make sure it's all moved over.
  182. # [03:45] <Hixie> but next week i'll start focusing on the feedback that built up over the last 6 weeks
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  190. # [04:25] <wakaba> Hixie: accept-charset DOM attribute -> acceptCharset?
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  198. # [05:29] <dglazkov> ping annevk2
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  228. # [09:15] <erlehmann_> sometimes, old people are awesome - "man, the last time I had to throw together some HTML, I was constantly doing things like \begin{center}."
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  230. # [09:34] <annevk2> Hixie, not WF2 feedback from the last few years? :)
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  240. # [10:37] <annevk2> it's a bit sad that external data providers for <select> and <datalist> are gone
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  242. # [10:44] <zcorpan> no one-liner google suggest? :(
  243. # [10:45] <annevk2> indeed
  244. # [10:46] <annevk2> though hopefully now that it's somewhat simpler other browsers will implement the new form controls
  245. # [10:46] <annevk2> can always be added back in in forms v3
  246. # [10:53] <annevk2> Web Forms 2.0 had a five year anniversary since the first official draft September 5
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  270. # [14:43] * Philip`__ is now known as Philip`
  271. # [14:43] <hsivonen> Philip`__: yes, it it typical for French books to have the spine text upside-down when the cover of the book faces up
  272. # [14:44] * Philip` wonders what caused the differing conventions
  273. # [14:44] <hsivonen> French book spine text is one of the great mysteries of local customs
  274. # [14:45] <Dashiva> Are their bookshelves RTL?
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  281. # [15:36] <hsivonen> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/search/webcrawler/slurp-14.html
  282. # [15:44] <Philip`> Seems nicer than Google's approach of using magic comments to indicate regions of the page that should be processed differently
  283. # [15:51] * eric_carlson_ is now known as eric_carlson
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  285. # [15:59] <annevk2> maybe we should host Anolis on Google App Engine?
  286. # [15:59] <Philip`> That won't work, since the CPU quota per request is tiny
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  289. # [16:04] <annevk2> Philip`, where is that stated?
  290. # [16:05] * annevk2 only sees a daily limit
  291. # [16:06] <Philip`> annevk2: Not sure, but I've seen people on blogs complaining that it doesn't like them spending more than fractions of a second on a request
  292. # [16:06] <annevk2> pointers?
  293. # [16:08] <annevk2> hmm
  294. # [16:08] <annevk2> "Google App Engine does not support any data structure that is larger than 1MB in size."
  295. # [16:08] <annevk2> and "Not only are your calls limited to returning in 10 seconds but if you actually try to do anything too stressful within those calls, you will quickly hit the short-term high CPU quota limit."
  296. # [16:08] <annevk2> from http://aralbalkan.com/1504
  297. # [16:12] <annevk2> there's http://www.10gen.com/ which seems to be competing with GAE
  298. # [16:13] <Philip`> What's wrong with where it's currently hoste?
  299. # [16:13] <Philip`> s//d/
  300. # [16:13] <annevk2> my version is too slow :)
  301. # [16:13] <annevk2> but yeah, prolly not much
  302. # [16:14] <Philip`> Parallelised scalable hosting things won't help when the problem is that a single serial Python script is too slow
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  306. # [16:48] <hsivonen> how didn't this issue surface during the long ARIA naming debate: http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/10/ie8-bad-update#comment-6641
  307. # [16:52] <annevk2> in retrospect ariavaluenow etc. would've been better
  308. # [16:53] <annevk2> also more consistent with on*
  309. # [16:58] <takkaria> you wonder why IE can't special-case aria attributes, really, in pre-IE8 mode
  310. # [16:58] <hsivonen> I also wonder why people from MS were silent on this
  311. # [16:58] <annevk2> that should be doable too, yes
  312. # [16:59] <annevk2> hsivonen, yeah, see my comment further down, no idea :/
  313. # [16:59] <hsivonen> and if non-MS people would have caught this had ARIA been specced in a more open way
  314. # [16:59] <annevk2> they're still silent on it
  315. # [17:03] * Philip` notes that IE8 returns undefined, not null, when getting nonexistent keys
  316. # [17:12] <takkaria> I wonder if the IE team ever tries to run other people's testsuites
  317. # [17:13] <Philip`> I'm not aware that any other people have made testsuites for all this stuff
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  322. # [17:33] <takkaria> I thought firefox had tests for localStorage, I may be wrong though
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  326. # [18:20] <annevk2> Firefox does not support it...
  327. # [18:22] <annevk2> oh wait, maybe it did land like a week ago
  328. # [18:22] <annevk2> bug is not closed though
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  335. # [19:00] <Philip`> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=422526
  336. # [19:00] <Philip`> Doesn't seem to be checked in yet
  337. # [19:00] <Philip`> unless I'm just looking in the wrong place
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  348. # [20:10] * Philip` sees http://www.legendscrolls.co.uk/webstandards/html5
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  351. # [20:33] <erlehmann> http://www.secondose.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/lovestory.jpg
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  358. # [22:14] <gpy> im hungry
  359. # [22:14] <gpy> how is that supposed to be solved..
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  370. # [23:54] <tiglionabbit> oh I just thought of something. Of the new form fields that are included for the sake of client-side validation, we have url, but we don't have phone number. Quite often I see the annoying pattern of 3 text fields with javascript jumps between them. It would be great to see a standard phone number field that eliminated this bad practice
  371. # [23:56] <Philip`> tiglionabbit: How would you validate a phone number?
  372. # [23:57] <tiglionabbit> start with the country code, or intuit it from the user's locale if you can't, then check if it follows the correct pattern
  373. # [23:57] <Philip`> Could the pattern be anything more complex than /\d+/?
  374. # [23:57] <tiglionabbit> what would be really nice would be to see a form field that behaves like a cell phone does when you start entering a number
  375. # [23:58] <tiglionabbit> formatting it with hyphons and parenthesis as you type
  376. # [23:58] <tiglionabbit> that are not actually part of the text
  377. # [23:59] <Philip`> I'd assume that's a huge amount of work to cover every locale, and would be out of date quite quickly
  378. # [23:59] <tiglionabbit> do cell phones have this problem?
  379. # Session Close: Sun Oct 12 00:00:00 2008

The end :)