/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-10-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 13 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [09:38] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  4. # [09:38] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  5. # [09:38] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks! -- gsnedders had green hair, photos coming soon :-)'
  6. # [09:38] * Set by gsnedders on Thu Oct 02 03:13:38
  7. # [09:39] <krijnh> (sorry for downtime)
  8. # [09:40] <annevk2> I assume you worked on adding a hundred new cool features? :p
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  12. # [09:49] <zcorpan> good morning guys
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  14. # [09:52] <wilhelm> 'Morning. (c:
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  20. # [10:54] <zcorpan> hmm. <h1><p><span><h1>
  21. # [10:54] <zcorpan> should the h1 be nested or not
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  23. # [10:57] <zcorpan> webkit now nests <p><font><h1>x
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  41. # [13:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: seen this? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=459395
  42. # [13:10] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/redwall_hp/statuses/957115107
  43. # [13:17] <Lachy> LOL. I wonder what made him thing XFrames is part of the HTML5 work
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  56. # [14:58] <hsivonen> yay. a new standards suck episode
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  68. # [16:23] <Lachy> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=993341&cid=25353353
  69. # [16:28] <ehird> Lachy: That's slightly ridiculous.
  70. # [16:28] <ehird> Just about -nothing- supports <video> presently.
  71. # [16:28] <ehird> (Also, google have a vested interest in adding petty, easily-breakable barriers to downloading: because the big megacorps want to feel safe.)
  72. # [16:32] <Lachy> ehird, yeah, right now, the suggestion isn't realistic. But give it a few years, when browsers have actually shipped with support for <video> and the codec issue has settled a bit, they could begin migrating to it
  73. # [16:32] <ehird> Lachy: You're forgetting about IE.
  74. # [16:33] <ehird> (Which I commend you for - I wish I could.)
  75. # [16:33] <ehird> Lachy: Even so, see my last line.
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  78. # [16:36] <Philip`> It's interesting to see the lengths the BBC iPlayer has gone to to prevent people downloading the iPhone-compatible MPEG4 versions of programmes on anything other than an iPhone, with strict checks on the exact sequence of HTTP requests made
  79. # [16:36] <Lachy> ehird, which "last line" are you referring to?
  80. # [16:37] <Philip`> but then they seem to have given up months ago
  81. # [16:37] <ehird> <ehird> (Also, google have a vested interest in adding petty, easily-breakable barriers to downloading: because the big megacorps want to feel safe.)
  82. # [16:37] <Philip`> and you can find plenty of simple scripts that you can give a URL and it'll download the MPEG4 onto your PC
  83. # [16:37] <ehird> Of course.
  84. # [16:37] <hsivonen> I wonder what the YouTube attitude towards old versions of Flash Player is
  85. # [16:37] <Philip`> so their protection has totally failed
  86. # [16:37] <ehird> But as long as they have stupid checks that mean nothing, the feeling of safety is given to those who request it.
  87. # [16:37] <ehird> If you see what I mean.
  88. # [16:37] <Lachy> ehird, since the megacorps don't own most of the content on YouTube, despite what some of them might like to claim, I find that difficult to believe
  89. # [16:38] <hsivonen> that is, do they feel that they need to support old versions that have security holes
  90. # [16:38] <ehird> Lachy: I'm talking about the recent collaborations with them.
  91. # [16:38] <gpy> is <br/> underestimated?
  92. # [16:40] <Lachy> I wonder where I can find those CBS videos on YouTube, and if they're available outside the USA?
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  94. # [16:41] <ehird> Lachy: As for the latter half: unlikely.
  95. # [16:41] <Lachy> http://www.youtube.com/blog?entry=F1xABdzKby4
  96. # [16:41] <Lachy> nope, they're not available in Norway at least
  97. # [16:41] <ehird> *shrug* Media sucks. I'm sure we all know this...
  98. # [16:42] <Lachy> which sucks, especially given that the shows they've started with are really old
  99. # [16:42] <ehird> Not accessible in the UK, either.
  100. # [16:42] <Lachy> it's not like they're shows which have yet to air in other countries
  101. # [16:42] <ehird> Lachy: YouTube probably couldn't afford the extra cash for extra country licenses or whatever other rubbish CBS forced on them
  102. # [16:43] <ehird> [[You may see in-stream video ads (including pre-, mid- and post-rolls) embedded in some of these episodes; this advertising format will only appear on premium content where you are most comfortable seeing such ads. In order to make this clear to you, we've labeled all full-length videos with a Film Strip symbol ( ) so you'll know exactly what kind of content you're choosing to watch and what ads you might see. (To see an example of the badge on search results,
  103. # [16:43] <Lachy> I'll see if I can bypass the regional lockout...
  104. # [16:43] <ehird> Ha. Ha. Ads! Wonderful!
  105. # [16:43] <ehird> Lachy: Hulu is easily bypassable, iirc, so I imagine this is too.
  106. # [16:44] <Philip`> CBS might have exclusive distribution licences with people in other countries, and be unable to let YouTube distribute things worldwide
  107. # [16:44] <ehird> Ahhh. That seems most likely.
  108. # [16:45] * Philip` noticed a while ago that Comedy Central seems to block access from the UK specifically, rather than permitting specific countries, which seems slightly odd
  109. # [16:47] <Philip`> Ah, right, that's just because Channel 4 now shows their shows in the UK
  110. # [16:47] <hsivonen> territory-scoped media distribution deals are so last century
  111. # [16:48] <Lachy> sweet, I've successfully bypassed the regional restrictions
  112. # [16:48] <Lachy> :-)
  113. # [16:48] <Lachy> using ssh tunnelling through a server in the US
  114. # [16:50] <Lachy> hsivonen, pretty much all deals made by large media companies these days are using last centuries business models
  115. # [16:50] * hsivonen is still wondering if the iTunes Movie Rental "international later this year" ends up meaning a couple of English-language countries
  116. # [16:51] <ehird> <Lachy> hsivonen, pretty much all deals made by large media companies these days are using last centuries business models
  117. # [16:51] <ehird> Truth!
  118. # [16:51] <Philip`> Lachy: Doesn't that mean they're this century's business models too?
  119. # [16:51] <ehird> Philip`: No, because people are starting to get a clue and evolving them.
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  121. # [16:53] <Lachy> no, I mean they're business models designed for last century's technology and distribution networks, being brutally applied to this century's
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  123. # [16:54] <annevk3> hsivonen, the Wii has Flash Player 7
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  125. # [16:55] <hsivonen> annevk3: that's unfortunate
  126. # [16:55] <annevk3> YouTube works fine on the Wii
  127. # [16:55] <gsnedders> greetings from France!
  128. # [16:55] <hsivonen> gsnedders: starting TPAC early? :-)
  129. # [16:56] <gsnedders> hsivonen: With my uncle for the week before
  130. # [16:56] <ehird> Proposal: HTML5 is said to be productionready along with a new standard of "Media Business Practices 21" :D
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  133. # [17:08] <takkaria> Philip`: oh, I wasn't aware it was so trivially easy to get around the iplayer stuff. useful, that
  134. # [17:08] * gsnedders wonders why one or two phone numbers won't sync on to his phone
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  140. # [17:31] <gsnedders> Ergh. Need to write a second personal statement for Cambridge.
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  142. # [17:43] * gsnedders updates <http://stuff.gsnedders.com/http-parsing.html> for the first time in ages
  143. # [17:44] <gsnedders> (Only section 3 and the to-do list has been touched)
  144. # [17:46] <gsnedders> Interestingly, behaviour varies a lot for one or two things
  145. # [17:47] <gsnedders> HTTP/1.1 12 Foobar
  146. # [17:47] <gsnedders> How should that be treated?
  147. # [17:48] <gsnedders> Saf/Leopard treats it as an invalid HTTP/1.1 response, and treats it as HTTP/0.9 (i.e., it is all data, no headers)
  148. # [17:49] <gsnedders> Firefox treats it as 12
  149. # [17:50] <gsnedders> So does Opera
  150. # [17:50] <gsnedders> Even more varied over HTTP/1.1 1234 Foobar
  151. # [17:50] <gsnedders> Saf/Leopard again invalid
  152. # [17:51] <gsnedders> Firefox status-code: 1234 reason-phrase: "Foobar"
  153. # [17:51] <gsnedders> Op: status-code: "123", reason-phrase: "4 Foobar"
  154. # [17:52] <gsnedders> IE follows Fx
  155. # [17:52] <gsnedders> (or, more likely, Fx follows IE)
  156. # [17:53] <gsnedders> (and both probably follow NN)
  157. # [17:53] <gsnedders> IE, Op and Fx all use null-terminated strings for header values
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  159. # [17:54] <gsnedders> With no reason-phrase given, IE defaults to "Close"
  160. # [17:54] <gsnedders> Which I guess it uses as the next thing after any *LWS
  161. # [17:56] <gsnedders> IE uses a list of headers that can be concatenated with ", ", everything else uses a list of headers to only use the first of
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  179. # [19:18] <gsnedders> Anyone in France with a Freebox around?
  180. # [19:19] * gsnedders needs to get the wifi password somehow
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  184. # [19:29] <gsnedders> Yay! Got password! It works!
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  190. # [20:20] <annevk3> ah, so Dion did leave Google... somehow that was not entirely clear to me after watching the video on ajaxian.com
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  196. # [21:19] <gsnedders> Ergh:
  197. # [21:19] <gsnedders> The photograph should:
  198. # [21:19] <gsnedders> be in portrait orientation (with a height to width ratio of 6:5)
  199. # [21:19] <gsnedders> be in colour
  200. # [21:19] <gsnedders> have a plain light coloured background
  201. # [21:19] <gsnedders> show your head and the top of your shoulders only, with your face central on the picture
  202. # [21:19] <gsnedders> be of good colour definition, not too dark or light
  203. # [21:19] <gsnedders> be in focus
  204. # [21:20] <gsnedders> show your face un-obscured (no sunglasses, hat or scarf) unless you wear glasses or cover your hair for religious reasons
  205. # [21:20] <gsnedders> show you acting naturally, not smoking, not with other people or in a 'holiday snap'
  206. # [21:20] <gsnedders> I don't think I have any that meet that description
  207. # [21:20] <gsnedders> Or at least, any with me with long-ish hair
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  219. # [21:44] <krijnh> annevk3: sorry, not really :)
  220. # [21:47] <gsnedders> Lachy: I'm going to have a book we were talking about a few months back at TPAC :)
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  224. # [22:16] <gsnedders> Is it just me or will the video on <http://standardssuck.org/w3c-standardization-process> not load?
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  231. # [22:26] <gsnedders> I need to get a real macro lens
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  236. # [22:40] <Philip`> gsnedders: It's not just you, since it says "Plug-in content" to me, but that's not surprising since I don't have any working plugins
  237. # [22:40] <gsnedders> :P
  238. # [22:49] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  239. # [22:56] <erlehmann> had they used <video>
  240. # [22:57] <gsnedders> My browser wouldn't support it at all :)
  241. # [22:58] <Philip`> Just link to an MPEG4 download - it's really not that hard :-p
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  244. # [23:15] * Joins: onitunes (n=onitunes@cpe-76-87-109-106.socal.res.rr.com)
  245. # [23:16] <roc> so tell me what you need
  246. # [23:17] <onitunes> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Carbon/Conceptual/CoreText_Programming/Overview/chapter_2_section_5.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40005533-CH3-DontLinkElementID_14
  247. # [23:17] <onitunes> that's basically the API I'm using on the desktop
  248. # [23:17] <onitunes> I'm building an in-browser IDE with SproutCore
  249. # [23:17] <onitunes> but I have to do all of the text manipulation on the server, because the client-side APIs aren't there yet
  250. # [23:18] <onitunes> I basically have a grip of span tags with one character each
  251. # [23:18] <onitunes> that fill up the visible area in a scrollable div
  252. # [23:18] <olliej> onitunes: are you sure this is really a task that is suitable to canvas?
  253. # [23:18] <onitunes> and as the user scrolls, I update the innerText and span classes to syntax highlight correctly
  254. # [23:19] <onitunes> to handle text selection, I have a <canvas> tag overlayed and I forward the mouse down to the server, get the results back, and update drawing
  255. # [23:19] <roc> if you're building a text editor, we probably want to find a way to make contenteditable do what you need
  256. # [23:19] <onitunes> sorry, this is not HTML
  257. # [23:19] <onitunes> that whole API sucks
  258. # [23:19] <onitunes> it's like FrontPage for the browser
  259. # [23:19] <onitunes> :P
  260. # [23:19] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@pD957A8D4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  261. # [23:19] <onitunes> which is the real problem
  262. # [23:20] <onitunes> you guys are writing for HTML people
  263. # [23:20] <onitunes> I just want to display text
  264. # [23:20] <olliej> onitunes: so your solution is to complain about a bitmap api rather than make suggestions for improving contenteditable?
  265. # [23:20] <onitunes> and basically, I'm working around the browser to get it to do that
  266. # [23:20] <roc> you really want the browser to understand that you're editing text
  267. # [23:20] <onitunes> who's complaining?
  268. # [23:20] <roc> otherwise stuff like IMEs won't work
  269. # [23:20] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@adsl-99-51-220-46.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  270. # [23:21] <onitunes> I just think it's incredible that text layout metrics are not available in the browser
  271. # [23:21] <roc> I would like to make them available in the browser, but it's complicated because of issues like font selection
  272. # [23:21] <onitunes> not anyone's fault, and I'm happy to patch <canvas> to add support for the 5 Core Text objects-
  273. # [23:21] <onitunes> really, this is not a big API
  274. # [23:22] <onitunes> anyway, I can do what I'm doing now, because I always have a server
  275. # [23:22] <roc> Core Text is much more than exposing text layout metrics
  276. # [23:22] <onitunes> agreed
  277. # [23:22] <onitunes> but it's pretty fundamental
  278. # [23:22] <onitunes> stuff
  279. # [23:23] <onitunes> I would expect JavaScript library authors to wrap it and provide a higher-level API
  280. # [23:23] <onitunes> but today, we have to wrap even higher-level APIs
  281. # [23:23] <onitunes> to do things they were never meant to do
  282. # [23:24] <onitunes> and do inefficiently at that
  283. # [23:24] <roc> that approach will never work with IMEs so it's simply not the right way to go
  284. # [23:24] <olliej> onitunes: your approach will not work with IME's. It just won't be possible
  285. # [23:24] <onitunes> ?
  286. # [23:24] <olliej> roc: :P
  287. # [23:24] <onitunes> what does IME have to do with this?
  288. # [23:24] <olliej> onitunes: international input
  289. # [23:24] <onitunes> yes, I know what it is
  290. # [23:24] <Hixie> if you're writing a text editor, you're going to have to use contenteditable or textarea or input type=text, otherwise you won't be accessible to things like voice browsers or other non-graphical user agents
  291. # [23:24] <onitunes> this has *nothing* to do with text input
  292. # [23:25] <roc> you said you were writing an IDE, I assumed this was about text editing
  293. # [23:25] <onitunes> Hixie: I already do the textarea thing
  294. # [23:25] <Hixie> ok
  295. # [23:25] <onitunes> but it's dumb
  296. # [23:25] <onitunes> just there to grab keystrokes
  297. # [23:25] <roc> maybe you should explain your requirements instead of just telling us what we shoud do
  298. # [23:25] <onitunes> which I forward on to a server
  299. # [23:25] <Hixie> so what is it you are trying to do?
  300. # [23:25] <onitunes> roc: I never said anyone should do aynthing
  301. # [23:25] <onitunes> I asked about submitting a patch
  302. # [23:26] <onitunes> Hixie: I want to be able to render an attributed string inside a <canvas> like tag, with functionality equivalent to that exposed by Core Text on Mac OS X
  303. # [23:26] * Philip` would hope browser developers wouldn't accept patches if they didn't know what you were trying to do which needed that patch
  304. # [23:26] <roc> tell us what you're trying to achieve, not how you think you should do it
  305. # [23:26] <olliej> Philip`: we wouldn't
  306. # [23:26] <Hixie> onitunes: why?
  307. # [23:27] <Hixie> onitunes: what are you trying to do?
  308. # [23:27] <onitunes> :/
  309. # [23:27] <Hixie> note that even if you wrote a patch for mozilla and webkit, you can't do that for microsoft and opera, so at some level you're asking for the spec to change and for the browsers to implement something, so we need to understand what you want and why :-)
  310. # [23:27] <onitunes> let me turn this around then
  311. # [23:28] <onitunes> why does Apple provide developers with Core Text?
  312. # [23:28] <olliej> onitunes: just tell us what you want
  313. # [23:28] <olliej> to do
  314. # [23:28] <olliej> onitunes: why is that so hard
  315. # [23:28] <onitunes> what am I, some Noob who just needs to learn the API?
  316. # [23:28] <onitunes> I already did that
  317. # [23:28] <onitunes> "I want to be able to render an attributed string inside a <canvas> like tag, with functionality equivalent to that exposed by Core Text on Mac OS X"
  318. # [23:28] <Hixie> why?
  319. # [23:28] <onitunes> why does that matter
  320. # [23:28] <onitunes> seriously
  321. # [23:28] <roc> even if he wrote a patch for Mozilla, we aren't just going to take it unless we agree it's a necessary and good API. Taking patches is not free
  322. # [23:28] <Hixie> because we design APIs to address use cases
  323. # [23:29] <olliej> onitunes: because there might be a better way to do it
  324. # [23:29] <olliej> onitunes: supporting hacks is not the task of a standard -- we want sensible solutions to general problems
  325. # [23:29] <onitunes> that's exactly what Core Text is
  326. # [23:29] * olliej face palms
  327. # [23:30] * olliej goes off to do something productive
  328. # [23:30] <onitunes> "The Core Text framework is an advanced, low-level technology for laying out text and handling fonts."
  329. # [23:30] <Hixie> CSS is an advanced, low-level technology for laying out text and handling fonts.
  330. # [23:30] <Hixie> maybe you should use CSS?
  331. # [23:30] <onitunes> jeez
  332. # [23:30] <Hixie> it's hard to know what you actually need if you won't tell us :-)
  333. # [23:30] <onitunes> I do, it sucks
  334. # [23:30] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  335. # [23:30] <roc> onitunes: you've got key people for three different projects all giving you attention, and you've squandered it
  336. # [23:30] <onitunes> I don't understand why you guys get to decide what I "need"
  337. # [23:31] <onitunes> I fail to see how
  338. # [23:31] <onitunes> I said *exactly* what I wanted, and why
  339. # [23:31] <Philip`> onitunes: We're asking what you need, not telling you what you need
  340. # [23:31] <onitunes> I need to be able to lay out styled text within a <canvas> like tag
  341. # [23:31] <Hixie> why?
  342. # [23:31] <onitunes> using a programmatic, not DOM-oriented API
  343. # [23:32] <onitunes> because that's what text layout applications do
  344. # [23:32] <onitunes> and text editors are, in part, text layout applications
  345. # [23:32] <Hixie> what is a "text layout application"?
  346. # [23:32] <onitunes> TextMate
  347. # [23:32] <onitunes> Emacs
  348. # [23:32] <onitunes> vi
  349. # [23:32] <onitunes> terminals
  350. # [23:32] <onitunes> Adobe InDesign
  351. # [23:33] <Hixie> text editors are intended to be addressed by contentEditable and CSS; what is it about contentEditable and CSS that can't replicate the functionality of TextMate, Emacs, vi, terminals, InDesign, etc?
  352. # [23:33] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@cpe-76-94-195-172.socal.res.rr.com)
  353. # [23:33] <onitunes> they are DOM-oriented
  354. # [23:33] <Hixie> right, that's a feature
  355. # [23:33] <onitunes> for me, it's a bug
  356. # [23:33] <onitunes> I'm not creating HTML
  357. # [23:33] <Hixie> why?
  358. # [23:33] <onitunes> so I have to extract out the text from the HTML
  359. # [23:33] <Hixie> what are you creating?
  360. # [23:33] <onitunes> text
  361. # [23:34] <onitunes> have you seen the madness people have gone through trying to implement syntax highlighting in the browser?
  362. # [23:34] <Hixie> so what's wrong with using HTML? It's a text markup languae.
  363. # [23:34] <onitunes> exactly
  364. # [23:34] <onitunes> MARKUP
  365. # [23:34] <onitunes> I'm not creating HTML
  366. # [23:34] <onitunes> or any other kind of markup
  367. # [23:34] <onitunes> I'm creating raw text, and styling it
  368. # [23:34] <olliej> eg. marking it up
  369. # [23:35] * onitunes palms in hands
  370. # [23:35] <olliej> onitunes: have you tried node.innerText ?
  371. # [23:35] <onitunes> seriously?
  372. # [23:35] <onitunes> of course I have
  373. # [23:35] <roc> Daniel Glazman has implemented a general syntax highlighting package that works with the DOM and HTML
  374. # [23:35] <Hixie> i'm afraid i am not understanding your request. I encourage you to read our FAQ and post your feedback straight to the mailing list where I can give it a longer and more considered response when I have more time available. FAQ: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ Mailing list: http://whatwg.org/mailing-list#specs
  375. # [23:36] <olliej> onitunes: you want to display styled content -- that means markup
  376. # [23:36] <olliej> onitunes: you don't have to save markup
  377. # [23:36] <roc> sure, contenteditable etc could be improved, and we'd welcome suggestions on how to do that, but without contenteditable you won't get IME support or accessibility, so your approach of reimplementing text editing from scratch is not the right way to go.
  378. # [23:36] <onitunes> hmm, styled text != markup
  379. # [23:37] <onitunes> I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there
  380. # [23:37] <olliej> onitunes: yes it does, NSAttributedString (of which you seem so enamoured) is a string with markup
  381. # [23:37] <roc> (you also won't get the right platform-specific editor UI)
  382. # [23:37] <onitunes> of course it is
  383. # [23:37] <onitunes> but it's not DOM nodes
  384. # [23:37] <onitunes> which is what you're suggesting I use
  385. # [23:37] <onitunes> along with CSS
  386. # [23:37] <Hixie> do DOM nodes have cooties or something?
  387. # [23:38] <olliej> onitunes: yes, because you're in a browser
  388. # [23:38] <onitunes> then tell me this: why does <canvas> exist?
  389. # [23:38] <onitunes> why not SVG?
  390. # [23:38] <olliej> onitunes: you're asking for a non browser technology so that you can create an in browser ide -- do you not see the problem with this?
  391. # [23:38] * Joins: theskymonkey (n=paulmlew@pool-96-232-135-223.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
  392. # [23:38] <Hixie> onitunes: mostly to allow people to render platform games and fractals
  393. # [23:38] <onitunes> Hixie: then why not SVG?
  394. # [23:38] <Hixie> onitunes: or to draw graphs
  395. # [23:39] <Hixie> onitunes: you can't do fractals with SVG
  396. # [23:39] <onitunes> because retained-mode APIs are high-level
  397. # [23:39] <Hixie> no
  398. # [23:39] <onitunes> sometimes, you just want to paint
  399. # [23:39] <Hixie> canvas is as high-level as svg
  400. # [23:39] <onitunes> why we can't paint text is beyond me
  401. # [23:39] <Hixie> it's just for a different set of use cases
  402. # [23:39] <Hixie> you can paint text
  403. # [23:39] <Hixie> you just can't measure it very well :-)
  404. # [23:39] <Hixie> or paint it along a path or to a path
  405. # [23:40] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@pD957A8D4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.1b2pre/20081012020419]")
  406. # [23:40] <onitunes> why is there resistance to this?
  407. # [23:40] <Hixie> to what?
  408. # [23:40] <onitunes> low-level text rendering in a canvas tag
  409. # [23:40] <Hixie> canvas already has low-level text rendering
  410. # [23:41] <onitunes> without layout, it's not worth much
  411. # [23:41] * Dashiva has bad memories of having to make a bitmap font for text rendering in canvas back in 2006
  412. # [23:41] <roc> I explained clearly why your approach is not the right direction for text editing.
  413. # [23:41] <Hixie> it doesn't have metrics because it is as yet still early days and nobody has given a convincing problem they're trying to solve for which we need to expose text metrics
  414. # [23:41] <onitunes> roc: it's not for text editing
  415. # [23:41] <Hixie> so what is it for?
  416. # [23:41] <onitunes> text rendering
  417. # [23:41] <onitunes> Core Text has nothing to do with editing
  418. # [23:41] <Hixie> that's what CSS is for
  419. # [23:41] <Hixie> Core Text has nothing to do with the Web either :-)
  420. # [23:42] <roc> you have refused to tell us what it actually is for, so we have to guess
  421. # [23:42] <onitunes> the browser != the web
  422. # [23:42] <onitunes> and it does have something to do with the browser
  423. # [23:42] <Hixie> i'm not really sure what that means
  424. # [23:42] <Hixie> Core Text is a Mac OS specific technology
  425. # [23:42] <Hixie> it has little to do with browsers in general
  426. # [23:43] <onitunes> if you say so
  427. # [23:43] <onitunes> you could say the same about video and audio, but low and behold, there are <video> and <audio> tags
  428. # [23:43] <onitunes> my original question was: could we make a <text> tag
  429. # [23:43] <Hixie> video is not a Mac OS specific technology either :-)
  430. # [23:43] <Hixie> we have one
  431. # [23:43] <onitunes> that worked like <canvas>, but let you control layout
  432. # [23:44] <Hixie> we have two, in fact
  433. # [23:44] <roc> why don't you just tell us why HTML and CSS don't satisfy your needs
  434. # [23:44] <roc> if you can't do that, you're just wasting our time
  435. # [23:44] <Hixie> (namely, one in SVG (<text>), and one in HTML (<span>), both of which are styled with CSS)
  436. # [23:44] <onitunes> roc: incremental rendering
  437. # [23:45] <onitunes> with the DOM, you have to include everything in the DOM for it to lay things out for you
  438. # [23:45] <roc> good, be more specific
  439. # [23:45] <onitunes> a 1MB file cannot have the full DOM created and updated, with correct syntax highlighting, in realtime, on each key press
  440. # [23:46] <onitunes> to work around that, programmers cheat:
  441. # [23:46] <onitunes> they take a grid, say 400 characters wide by 400 characters tall
  442. # [23:46] <onitunes> and make each cell in the grid a <span> tag
  443. # [23:46] <onitunes> then the use node.innerText to update the character
  444. # [23:46] <Hixie> um, that is patently untrue. load the HTML5 spec in a browser and type javascript:document.body.contentEditable=true into the location bar
  445. # [23:46] <onitunes> and set the correct class on each tag
  446. # [23:46] <Hixie> pronto, a 2MB+ document editing in realtime
  447. # [23:47] <onitunes> contentEditible is for HTML
  448. # [23:47] <Hixie> yes
  449. # [23:47] <onitunes> I'm not editing HTMl
  450. # [23:47] <onitunes> I'm editing text
  451. # [23:47] <Hixie> why not?
  452. # [23:47] <Hixie> so mark your text up in HTML
  453. # [23:47] <onitunes> just raw, plain old syntax-highlight texd
  454. # [23:47] <Hixie> raw, plain old syntax-highlighted text is exactly what HTML is
  455. # [23:48] <onitunes> nonsense
  456. # [23:48] <onitunes> HTML is semantic
  457. # [23:48] <Hixie> what do you think syntax highlighting is if not semantics?
  458. # [23:48] <onitunes> and basically, to get interactive performance, I have to completely blow away those semanticns
  459. # [23:48] <onitunes> its identical to using tables for layout
  460. # [23:49] <onitunes> what I have to do with the DOM to syntax highlight source code
  461. # [23:49] <onitunes> I can do it, and I *do do it
  462. # [23:49] <onitunes> as in, it works
  463. # [23:49] <roc> if you're not using contenteditable, you're doing it wrong.
  464. # [23:49] <onitunes> but I would be much better off without the workaround, using DOM nodes for layout, when something like Core Text is what I would use on the desktop
  465. # [23:50] <onitunes> roc: okay
  466. # [23:50] <onitunes> contenteditable does not do incremental layout
  467. # [23:50] <onitunes> I need that
  468. # [23:50] <roc> yes it does
  469. # [23:50] <onitunes> well, it sounds like there's no interest in a low-level text API
  470. # [23:50] <roc> what it doesn't do is incremental recomputation of syntax highlighting
  471. # [23:50] <onitunes> I'll move on, we all have better things to do
  472. # [23:51] <roc> so there's this: http://www.disruptive-innovations.com/zoo/diavolo/diavolo.html
  473. # [23:51] <onitunes> yeah, it's DOM-centric
  474. # [23:51] <annevk3> onitunes, what do you mean with "incremental layout"?
  475. # [23:51] <roc> which does pure-JS syntax highlighting. it's a Firefox extension, but the approach could be ported to regular HTML, I think
  476. # [23:51] <onitunes> annevk3: not creating DOM nodes for content that is not currently visible
  477. # [23:51] <roc> you don't really need that
  478. # [23:51] <onitunes> roc: you may be right
  479. # [23:52] <roc> you just need contenteditable and the syntax highlighter to be fast
  480. # [23:52] <annevk3> onitunes, why shouldn't that optimization be up to the browser?
  481. # [23:52] <onitunes> because they're too slow
  482. # [23:52] <onitunes> we have lists with 10,000 rows that we can scroll in realtime with incremental rendering
  483. # [23:53] <onitunes> if only 30 rows are visibile, we create 30 DOM nodes and re-use them as the user scrolls, swapping their contents
  484. # [23:53] <annevk3> onitunes, so why not implement the "incremental layout" yourself? ah, you're doing that
  485. # [23:53] <onitunes> right, I do that now
  486. # [23:53] <onitunes> with <span> cells
  487. # [23:53] <onitunes> look, I can make this work today
  488. # [23:54] <roc> "I'm doing this and it's slow" is much more useful information than "you must support a Core Text API"
  489. # [23:54] <onitunes> but it would be much nicer not to have to trick the browser
  490. # [23:54] <onitunes> and to instead have a nice, low-level text rendering API like Core TExt
  491. # [23:54] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228078013.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  492. # [23:54] <onitunes> roc: okay, sorry I didn't mention that earlier
  493. # [23:54] <Hixie> if what you want is a fast syntax-highlighted plain text editor, it seems like it would be much better to provide an API for <textarea> that allows that than doing anything with canvas.
  494. # [23:55] <onitunes> Hixie: that could be
  495. # [23:55] <roc> as we've repeatedly explained, writing your own text editing throws away a lot of important features, so it's not the right way to go.
  496. # [23:55] <Hixie> onitunes: that's why we were asking for what you were doing
  497. # [23:55] <roc> what Hixie said
  498. # [23:55] <Hixie> there has been some interest in providing <textarea> syntax-highlighting, maybe backed in a way similar to <datagrid> JS datasource mechanism
  499. # [23:55] <Hixie> I'm waiting for <datagrid> implementations before going there though
  500. # [23:56] <roc> right now I'm not sure whether the problems you have are because you have too much text for the browser to handle efficiently, or whether it's because a pure-JS syntax highlighter isn't fast enough for you
  501. # [23:56] <othermaciej> onitunes: writing a text editor using an API at the level of CoreText would not be a wise idea, even in a native app
  502. # [23:56] <othermaciej> (reading some scrollback)
  503. # [23:57] <onitunes> it's not a real problem, I'm just certain it would render faster if I didn't have to do 1600 node.innerText updates to render the text view
  504. # [23:57] <roc> so you're not using contenteditable
  505. # [23:57] <roc> ?
  506. # [23:57] <othermaciej> onitunes: nearly all apps developed by Apple that display text use either NSTextView or WebView
  507. # [23:57] <onitunes> othermaciej: of course they do
  508. # [23:57] <othermaciej> not CoreText directly
  509. # [23:57] <othermaciej> even Xcode
  510. # [23:57] <onitunes> that's what I would build on top of it
  511. # [23:57] <onitunes> :-)
  512. # [23:57] <othermaciej> and Dashcode
  513. # [23:58] <othermaciej> so I do not see why an IDE would specifically want a low-level text drawing API instead of a rich text editing API
  514. # [23:58] <onitunes> but asking browser vendors to implement NSTextView is asking too much
  515. # [23:58] <onitunes> Core Text is much easier to provide, and allows innovation on top of it
  516. # [23:58] <othermaciej> I would advise start with contentEditable and point out what is missing that you need
  517. # [23:58] <Hixie> browser vendors are much more likely to implement NSTextView than CoreText at this point, frankly
  518. # [23:58] <onitunes> I've already said the problem with it: you have to construct the entire DOM tree
  519. # [23:58] <onitunes> Hixie: that's too bad
  520. # [23:58] <othermaciej> and is that technologically infeasible?
  521. # [23:59] <annevk3> it's slow
  522. # [23:59] <onitunes> performance-wise, it's a non-starter
  523. # [23:59] <roc> why? How much text do you have?
  524. # [23:59] <onitunes> look guys, if this is not critical and patches will be rejected, we should move on
  525. # [23:59] <othermaciej> have you tried it, or is that a guess?
  526. # [23:59] <onitunes> I can already git it to work
  527. # [23:59] <onitunes> with the approach I have now
  528. # [23:59] <annevk3> I've heard from a similar project that also split up the text and only parsed the displayed bit
  529. # Session Close: Tue Oct 14 00:00:00 2008

The end :)