/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-10-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 14 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <onitunes> othermaciej: I've tried it
  4. # [00:00] <annevk3> because of slowness
  5. # [00:00] <othermaciej> I would like to solve your use case, but drawing manually on a <canvas> is a really poor approach to text editing
  6. # [00:00] <onitunes> text *rendering*
  7. # [00:00] <roc> onitunes: we genuinely want to understand your needs and figure out how to meet them
  8. # [00:00] <onitunes> you guys keep forgetting that
  9. # [00:00] <onitunes> I'm not asking about editing
  10. # [00:00] <onitunes> I don't use any of your editing stuff now
  11. # [00:00] <Hixie> if you're not doing editing, then why is performance slow?
  12. # [00:00] <onitunes> and I won't be starting anytime soon
  13. # [00:00] <Hixie> it's just a one-off thing if you're not editing
  14. # [00:00] <othermaciej> onitunes: if you post an example of it done that way, I would be glad to profile
  15. # [00:00] <onitunes> ah, I *am* doing editing
  16. # [00:01] <Hixie> if you're doing editing, then you should be doing contentEditable.
  17. # [00:01] <onitunes> othermaciej: okay, will add todo list
  18. # [00:01] <othermaciej> onitunes: and figure out whether there are things that can be optimized, or if there is some way to come up with a design that lets you dynamically provide data for only the visible area, or something
  19. # [00:01] <Hixie> onitunes: we want to solve your whole use case, not just the part you want us to solve, because we think we can solve the problem better than you :-)
  20. # [00:01] <othermaciej> I would not expect the DOM approach to be that bad
  21. # [00:02] <onitunes> Hixie: *that* much I get
  22. # [00:02] <othermaciej> WebKit's own Web Inspector uses HTML markup for syntax highlighting
  23. # [00:02] <onitunes> well, this is easily confirmed with tests
  24. # [00:03] <onitunes> and you can see how I "fix" the problem
  25. # [00:03] <othermaciej> indeed
  26. # [00:03] <onitunes> thanks everyone, it looks like the ball is in my court moving forward
  27. # [00:03] <othermaciej> tests = good
  28. # [00:04] <othermaciej> I guess in general, when the normal browser way of doing something is too slow or otherwise unsuitable for some use case, we are generally more interested in enhancing the built-in functinality, than in providing an alternate super low-level way to build it yourself
  29. # [00:05] <othermaciej> not always, but I think that is usually the bias of browser vendors and standards folks
  30. # [00:06] <onitunes> I agree with that approach in general, until programmers start implementing low-level APIs _on top of_ the high-level APIs that are provided, which is what I've done
  31. # [00:07] * Quits: smerp (n=smerp@66.192.95.199) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  32. # [00:07] <othermaciej> I would look at such incidents as an opportunity to find out why we did not serve that programmer's use case well with existing API
  33. # [00:07] <othermaciej> but I would probably not assume "add low-level API" is the solution
  34. # [00:08] <othermaciej> I think that drawing one's own text to a bitmap, in particular, is a very bad thing
  35. # [00:08] <othermaciej> so I'd like to make sure people don't feel they need to go to such extreme measures
  36. # [00:08] <onitunes> othermaciej: that's an *amesome* quotable
  37. # [00:08] <onitunes> awesome
  38. # [00:09] <onitunes> "I think that drawing one's own text to a bitmap, in particular, is a very bad thing"
  39. # [00:09] <onitunes> :)
  40. # [00:09] * othermaciej fails to see why his remark was remarkable, but ok...
  41. # [00:11] <onitunes> so, othermaciej, how do you feel about sIFR?
  42. # [00:11] <onitunes> just kidding...
  43. # [00:12] <othermaciej> if I need to explain, then I'll just say that if you draw your own text, you don't get support for the browser features of screen reader integration, copy/paste, find in page, correct bidi layout of text across, line breaks, and history search through text indexing; or the general Web feature of documents being searchable through search engines (granted, some of these don't necessarily apply in the text editing context), and probably m
  44. # [00:12] <othermaciej> even if the right low-level APIs existed to do all these things "by hand", it would be very hard to get them right
  45. # [00:12] <roc> or IMEs
  46. # [00:12] <othermaciej> so my inclination is to find out why the current rich text editing support of Web browsers is unsuitable, and try to make it suitable
  47. # [00:13] <Hixie> not to mention selection and drag and drop
  48. # [00:13] <othermaciej> rather than assuming people will write their own text editing/display logic by hand
  49. # [00:13] <onitunes> I can already do that stuff with the low-level API I've build on top of your high-level APIs
  50. # [00:13] <onitunes> including selection and drag and drop
  51. # [00:13] <Hixie> that i'd like to see :-)
  52. # [00:13] <onitunes> I'm a programmer, just like you guys
  53. # [00:13] <onitunes> nothings impossible
  54. # [00:13] <onitunes> just potentially slowv
  55. # [00:13] <othermaciej> since few would even be willing to try the latter, and most who do will fail to get it right
  56. # [00:14] <othermaciej> onitunes: got a demo page up?
  57. # [00:14] <roc> onitunes: you won't get the right per-platform selection behaviour, that's for sure, since you have no way to know what the platform selection behaviour actually is
  58. # [00:14] <onitunes> it's an IDE
  59. # [00:14] <onitunes> the selection behavior is IDE-specific
  60. # [00:14] <onitunes> and language specific, for that matter
  61. # [00:14] <roc> what color should the selection be?
  62. # [00:14] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.250) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  63. # [00:15] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.250)
  64. # [00:15] <onitunes> it's an IDE, user configure that stuff
  65. # [00:15] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  66. # [00:15] <Hixie> should the selection extend to the edge of the window or not?
  67. # [00:15] <Hixie> should right-clicking on the selection should a "Look up in Dictionary" item, and does it work?
  68. # [00:15] <onitunes> edge of the text areaL
  69. # [00:15] <onitunes> ?
  70. # [00:15] <onitunes> yes, I draw the selection with a <canvas> overlay
  71. # [00:15] <Hixie> (i'd love to see your bidi implementation, too)
  72. # [00:15] <roc> what should the default color be, for the 99% of users who won't configure the color?
  73. # [00:15] <onitunes> I use the browsers
  74. # [00:15] <othermaciej> we do not want to encourage Web developers in general to ignore platform text editing conventions, even if you think it is the right choice for you
  75. # [00:16] <onitunes> othermaciej: it's an application
  76. # [00:16] * Hixie would love to see a demo of this
  77. # [00:16] <onitunes> it's coming
  78. # [00:16] <onitunes> it's an IDE for SproutCore
  79. # [00:16] <onitunes> none of this is rocket science
  80. # [00:16] <onitunes> and I'm almost certain the feedback I'll get is "your cheating"
  81. # [00:16] <onitunes> you're
  82. # [00:16] <onitunes> because I am
  83. # [00:16] <onitunes> I have full parsers for handling the text
  84. # [00:17] <onitunes> syntaxt highlighting is trival
  85. # [00:17] <onitunes> selection handling is done against the AST, again, trivial
  86. # [00:17] <Hixie> i expect our feedback will be "this doesn't actually work like it should", not "you're cheating" :-)
  87. # [00:17] <onitunes> Hixie: haha, could be
  88. # [00:17] <Hixie> but i'd love to be proved wrong :-)
  89. # [00:17] <othermaciej> I don't really know what "cheating" would be, I am more curious whether the features I listed do in fact work correctly
  90. # [00:17] <onitunes> you guys are tough to convince
  91. # [00:17] <othermaciej> I would think getting Safari's "Find in Page" to work right with such an editing scheme is probably impossible
  92. # [00:18] <othermaciej> but the proof is in the pudding
  93. # [00:18] <onitunes> othermaciej: of course
  94. # [00:18] <onitunes> I don't support that, but I do have a solid find dialog
  95. # [00:18] <Hixie> well then
  96. # [00:18] <onitunes> it's not a web page, it's a web app
  97. # [00:18] <Hixie> you don't support find in page :-)
  98. # [00:18] <onitunes> of course
  99. # [00:18] <onitunes> not
  100. # [00:18] <onitunes> but I do support "find"
  101. # [00:18] <othermaciej> then clearly you don't support all the features I listed
  102. # [00:19] <onitunes> and it's much more comprehensive than Safari's "find in page" feature
  103. # [00:19] <onitunes> e.g. Find and Replace :)
  104. # [00:19] <onitunes> regex find
  105. # [00:19] <onitunes> (and since the text is backed by git, find in history)
  106. # [00:20] <onitunes> well, next month will be fun
  107. # [00:20] <onitunes> the IDE will be released as an alpha in the next few weeks
  108. # [00:22] <othermaciej> it sounds like you are sufficiently invested in your idea that you are perhaps past caring whether normal browser text editing could be made to work well enough for your use case
  109. # [00:22] <onitunes> othermaciej: I bet I could support Find in Page too
  110. # [00:22] <onitunes> othermaciej: right, I'm not interested at all in browser text editing
  111. # [00:22] <onitunes> I think it's impossible for you guys to implement text editing in a way that makes sense for an IDE
  112. # [00:22] <onitunes> and it's not your mandate, anyway
  113. # [00:23] <othermaciej> I would like the browser's native text editing support to be good enough for a word processor, an IDE, a mail client, or a desktop publishing type app
  114. # [00:24] <othermaciej> I think many people involved with browser development would agree
  115. # [00:24] <othermaciej> I'm not sure why you conclude that it's impossible, because people do in fact build IDEs on top of other general-purpose text editing APIs, so all I conclude is that we are missing some essential features of those APIs
  116. # [00:25] <onitunes> attribute strings, perhaps?
  117. # [00:25] <othermaciej> (or some approach that makes things fast even when style changes are dense, or something like that)
  118. # [00:25] <onitunes> hehe
  119. # [00:25] <onitunes> Core Text and you're done
  120. # [00:25] <onitunes> let us JavaScript guys do the heavy lifting
  121. # [00:26] <Hixie> why not just provide a low-level bitmap object and let you do the font rasterising too?
  122. # [00:26] <Hixie> surely that would be even more low level
  123. # [00:26] <onitunes> if you did a <text> node, where the raw source text was in the node, but the drawing was done like <canvas>, that would work
  124. # [00:26] <onitunes> then you could search for the text, etc.
  125. # [00:26] <onitunes> but still render it programmatically
  126. # [00:27] <Hixie> like i said, we have <text> already in SVG, and in HTML it's spelt <span>. Both are stylable with CSS.
  127. # [00:27] <onitunes> Hixie: I may go there
  128. # [00:27] <Hixie> onitunes: why should we provide a high-level API like CoreText if you're going to ignore it anyway?
  129. # [00:27] <onitunes> I'm going to build on it
  130. # [00:27] <othermaciej> onitunes: since you are convinced that you already know the right answer, it is hard to have a productive discussion
  131. # [00:28] <othermaciej> most people do not assume that the right answer to an insufficiently powerful text editing API is to providing an API to do your own text measuring and drawing
  132. # [00:28] <Hixie> onitunes: why do you want to build on a high-level API like CoreText instead of a low-level API like pixel-level manipulation?
  133. # [00:29] <onitunes> Hixie: I wish JavaScript could manipulate bytes efficiently
  134. # [00:29] <onitunes> oh well
  135. # [00:29] <Hixie> that we'll be adding
  136. # [00:29] <onitunes> I'll do whatever I have to do to make my application work properly
  137. # [00:29] <roc> othermaciej: I already pointed out that Daniel Glazman is building an IDE based on browser text editing, but that didn't seem to register
  138. # [00:30] <onitunes> if it gets down to rendering text on the server and drawing bitmaps with canvas, well, I would be willing to go there
  139. # [00:30] <onitunes> roc: I looked at it
  140. # [00:30] <onitunes> it's XUL based
  141. # [00:30] <onitunes> but may be ported
  142. # [00:30] <roc> XUL doesn't offer anything particularly special here, trust me
  143. # [00:30] <onitunes> anyway, that's not really my problem space, though it may look similar
  144. # [00:31] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@nat/google/x-dc851c60f6145811)
  145. # [00:31] <onitunes> still, I hadn't seen that link, thanks
  146. # [00:31] <roc> you can't even render styled text spans in XUL without dropping into HTML
  147. # [00:31] <othermaciej> onitunes: I think you are proud that you did things in such a hardcore low-level way, and I am tentatively (not having seen the actual demo) impressed
  148. # [00:31] <roc> or the equivalent plain-vanilla XML
  149. # [00:32] <othermaciej> onitunes: but I still don't think that is a good design approach in general for text editing in the Web technology stack
  150. # [00:32] <onitunes> othermaciej: the big thing is I don't like bugs
  151. # [00:32] <Hixie> onitunes: based on what you've said, it sounds exactly like your problem space, though certainly it's not the way you solved the problem space
  152. # [00:32] <onitunes> I keep dropping down layers until I hit something solid
  153. # [00:32] * Hixie loves bugs, obviously :-P
  154. # [00:32] <onitunes> that's true on every platform I work on
  155. # [00:32] <othermaciej> onitunes: oh, well I just love bugs, I think they are awesome, so we'll just have to agree to disagree!
  156. # [00:32] <Hixie> i think we should have more bugs!
  157. # [00:33] <wilhelm> You can have some of mine.
  158. # [00:33] <othermaciej> in fact, lemme go check in to the WebKit tree so I can add more bugs
  159. # [00:33] <onitunes> okay, leaky abstractions
  160. # [00:33] <onitunes> contenteditable is a leaky abstraction
  161. # [00:33] <onitunes> (ignoring for a second the performance problems with updating large DOM trees)
  162. # [00:33] <onitunes> it's meant for editing "rich text"
  163. # [00:34] <onitunes> so when you want to edit plain text, you get pain
  164. # [00:34] <Hixie> how can contentEditable be a leaky abstraction? It has multiple different implementations :-)
  165. # [00:34] <onitunes> and the pain is different on each browser
  166. # [00:34] <onitunes> Hixie: see previous line
  167. # [00:34] <onitunes> whereas <span> + CSS class is basically solid everywhere
  168. # [00:34] * Joins: ginger (n=nessy@124-171-22-123.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  169. # [00:35] <Hixie> oh well like i said, if you want to edit plain text, we should do that by offering an API on <textarea> for formatting the text on the fly
  170. # [00:35] <onitunes> Hixie: yeah, that'd be cool
  171. # [00:35] <roc> if you've got specific contenteditable bugs that you want fixed, that is also very useful information
  172. # [00:35] <onitunes> "if you did a <text> node, where the raw source text was in the node, but the drawing was done like <canvas>, that would work"
  173. # [00:35] <onitunes> switch <text> to <textarea> and we agree, essentially, Hixie
  174. # [00:35] <Hixie> oh i don't in any way think we should do anything like <canvas>
  175. # [00:36] <Hixie> it would be UA-pull, like <datagrid>
  176. # [00:36] <othermaciej> I would be inclined to say the browser layout engine still draws the text, but perhaps with dynamic styles
  177. # [00:36] <Hixie> not author-push like <canvas>
  178. # [00:36] <Hixie> anyway
  179. # [00:36] <othermaciej> (that's assuming this can be shown to be meaningfully more efficient than adding <span>s)
  180. # [00:36] <Hixie> that's not something i plan to design today
  181. # [00:36] <onitunes> othermaciej: I'll do a write-up of the DOM approach on the RedBull wiki
  182. # [00:37] <onitunes> it's really simple (probably why its also fast)
  183. # [00:37] <Hixie> yeah just recreating the DOM nodes on the fly seems like it would probably work about as well
  184. # [00:37] <Hixie> you could do some pretty good optimisations too
  185. # [00:38] <Hixie> keeping track of state so that if you hit a point where you're back in the same state as before you just stop restyling
  186. # [00:39] <onitunes> the way I do it, given a character, I can tell you the style (== CSS class) to apply
  187. # [00:39] <onitunes> it's pretty hard to screw that up :)
  188. # [00:39] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.202.33.235)
  189. # [00:39] * ehird is now known as Barack_Obama
  190. # [00:39] <onitunes> innerText is also pretty fast on FF
  191. # [00:39] <othermaciej> onitunes: so you scan back or forward from the character to figure out the style?
  192. # [00:39] <onitunes> othermaciej: I have a full parse tree
  193. # [00:39] * Barack_Obama is now known as ehird
  194. # [00:40] <onitunes> given a character, I can identify the AST ned
  195. # [00:40] <othermaciej> onitunes: I see
  196. # [00:40] <onitunes> node
  197. # [00:40] <othermaciej> at the JS level or in native code?
  198. # [00:40] <onitunes> native
  199. # [00:40] <onitunes> I'd like to move it to CSS
  200. # [00:40] <onitunes> but it comes from the server now
  201. # [00:40] <onitunes> CSS?
  202. # [00:40] <onitunes> I meant JavaScript
  203. # [00:40] <othermaciej> what code is responsible for updating the AST in response to edits?
  204. # [00:40] <onitunes> we talked about this over on #jsc a week or so ago
  205. # [00:41] <onitunes> othermaciej: the server
  206. # [00:41] <onitunes> I forward key presses and mouse movement to the server
  207. # [00:41] <othermaciej> does it do it in some incremental way or just full reparse?
  208. # [00:41] <onitunes> incremental
  209. # [00:42] <onitunes> though the parser is very fast
  210. # [00:42] <onitunes> it's not a bottleneck right now (it's C++)
  211. # [00:43] <othermaciej> it would be cool if even that part could practically be done with JS
  212. # [00:43] <onitunes> totally agree
  213. # [00:43] <onitunes> I want to move that to JavaScript
  214. # [00:43] <onitunes> but I'm using libraries from other projects right now, so it'd be a lot of work to do that
  215. # [00:44] <onitunes> JavaScript also doesn't have mutable strings :(
  216. # [00:44] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-133-222.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  217. # [00:45] <othermaciej> I would not expect parsing to an AST to need mutable strings
  218. # [00:46] <onitunes> right, but the editing is all server-side now too
  219. # [00:46] <onitunes> I'm not sure how to do that efficiently on the client yet
  220. # [00:46] <onitunes> that's what I mean by cheating
  221. # [00:46] <onitunes> I have a really smart server and a really dumb browser client
  222. # [00:47] <othermaciej> props for bucking the trend
  223. # [00:48] <othermaciej> I do not think mutable strings are required for editing either; there are some specialized buffer structures for efficiently inserting into or deleting from the middle of a text buffer (like Emacs uses) but I don't think a general-pupose mutable string would help much
  224. # [00:49] <onitunes> I could use arrays, but there's not AFAICT an easy way to go from an integer to a character in a string
  225. # [00:49] <onitunes> that would be helpful
  226. # [00:49] <onitunes> :-)
  227. # [00:49] <onitunes> I've used a switch statement in the past, but it's not fast
  228. # [00:49] <onitunes> or at least, it wasn't
  229. # [00:49] <onitunes> I think you guys have some improvements there now
  230. # [00:50] <gavin> fromCharCode?
  231. # [00:50] <onitunes> gavin: you're my hero
  232. # [00:51] <gavin> I'm not sure that using arrays for strings is going to win you anything
  233. # [00:51] <jcranmer> charCodeAt and fromCharCode
  234. # [00:51] <onitunes> I need a better JavaScript reference :/
  235. # [00:51] <jcranmer> I have some JS code that does btoa and atob
  236. # [00:52] <gavin> why would you do btoa/atob in js?
  237. # [00:52] <othermaciej> modern JS implementations are pretty efficient at handling cases where you split and recombine strings
  238. # [00:52] <othermaciej> ad particularly incremental append
  239. # [00:52] <gavin> does IE not have it as a global on the Window?
  240. # [00:52] <jcranmer> gavin: because a) I don't have a window object lying around and b) I'm doing protocol I/O
  241. # [00:53] <gavin> jcranmer: what do you have, then?
  242. # [00:53] <jcranmer> gavin: whatever xpcshell has
  243. # [00:53] <gavin> jcranmer: atob/btoa were recently added for xpcom components, adding them to xpcshell shouldn't be very hard if it's not already done
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  245. # [00:54] <gavin> I'd be interested in seeing your version though
  246. # [00:54] <gavin> I've written a couple that predate the availability of it in components
  247. # [00:54] <jcranmer> http://hg.mozilla.org/users/Pidgeot18_gmail.com/trunk_mq/file/c05017b8babc/imapfakeserver#l1927
  248. # [00:57] <jcranmer> definitely writtin for JS, though
  249. # [01:02] <gavin> ah, mine was http://bonsai.mozilla.org/cvsblame.cgi?file=mozilla/browser/components/search/nsSearchService.js&rev=1.92#269
  250. # [01:02] <gavin> took a byte array though
  251. # [01:02] <gavin> simon improved it a bit in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=363318#c17
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  262. # [02:06] <mcarter> jcranmer, what sort of protocol I/O are you doing in browsers?
  263. # [02:07] <jcranmer> mcarter: it's not something in a browser
  264. # [02:07] <jcranmer> it's something in JS
  265. # [02:07] <jcranmer> IMAP, NNTP, SMTP, POP, managesieve, probably IRC in the future as well
  266. # [02:07] <mcarter> jcranmer, are these clients?
  267. # [02:07] <jcranmer> mcarter: servers, actually
  268. # [02:08] <mcarter> jcranmer, I don't suppose your'e doing any client work at all?
  269. # [02:08] <jcranmer> mcarter: I am
  270. # [02:08] <mcarter> jcranmer, is any of this open source by any chance?
  271. # [02:08] <jcranmer> mcarter:
  272. # [02:08] <jcranmer> yep
  273. # [02:08] <jcranmer> http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/mailnews/test/fakeserver/
  274. # [02:08] <mcarter> jcranmer, http://www.js.io/svn/js.io/trunk/protocols/irc/irc2.js (irc client implementation, MIT licensed, if you need it)
  275. # [02:09] <mcarter> jcranmer, what license is your code?
  276. # [02:09] <jcranmer> MPL, I think
  277. # [02:10] <mcarter> jcranmer, do you mind if I send you a private chat?
  278. # [02:10] <jcranmer> MPL,GPL, LGPL tri-licensed to be precise
  279. # [02:10] <jcranmer> mcarter: np
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  286. # [03:20] <kingryan> hsivonen: you around?
  287. # [03:34] <roc> anyone know where to get stats on which % of documents have standards-mode doctypes?
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  289. # [03:40] <Hixie> as of january, in a scan of about three billion documents biased against spam sites and towards more frequently visited and modified sites, full standards was 10%, almost standards was 40%, and quirks was 50%.
  290. # [03:40] <roc> thanks
  291. # [03:40] <Hixie> that's the most recent data i've collected, but if you want updated numbers i can set another scan up
  292. # [03:42] <roc> no, that's fine thanks
  293. # [03:43] <Hixie> k
  294. # [03:43] <Hixie> i once tried to do a scan that bucketed sites on a per-year basis based on last-modified headers, which showed an increase in standards mode doctype and a much more significant increase in almost standards mode doctypes
  295. # [03:43] <Hixie> but the data is so noisy that it's hard to do good studies based on that
  296. # [03:44] <Hixie> the year data, that is
  297. # [03:44] <Hixie> (e.g. there as many pages from 2009 today as from 1994)
  298. # [03:44] <Hixie> (and far more from 2050 and 1970 than from 1998, iirc)
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  302. # [03:58] <roc> hehe
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  353. # [09:11] <zcorpan> Hixie: "Your TV doesn't size to fit the video data." -- no, but my media players on the computer do
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  366. # [10:14] <Lachy> Hixie, "we shouldn't pick a codec that requires that subtitles be burnt in." - It's the container format that matters for that, not the video codec
  367. # [10:16] <zcorpan> http://developer.mozilla.org/web-tech/2008/10/13/mozafterpaint/
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  374. # [10:37] <gsnedders> annevk3: around?
  375. # [10:38] <annevk3> sort of
  376. # [10:39] <gsnedders> annevk3: How many entities do you intend to define in XML5?
  377. # [10:40] <annevk3> I was planning on having the exact same list as HTML5 (though always require a semicolon)
  378. # [10:40] <gsnedders> annevk3: k
  379. # [10:43] <gsnedders> (I realized that behaviour of non-validating XML processors when finding unknown entities in undefined in XML 1.0 in cases)
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  401. # [11:51] <hsivonen> gsnedders: the XML processor behavior is defined: report to application
  402. # [11:51] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it's even part of the main SAX interface
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  408. # [12:45] <annevk3> hsivonen, it's not clear whether it's a fatal error though
  409. # [12:46] <hsivonen> it's not fatal.
  410. # [12:47] * hsivonen checks the spec
  411. # [12:48] <hsivonen> annevk3: the spec doesn't make it an error of any kind, so it is not a fatal error
  412. # [12:48] <annevk3> yet it's fatal in some implementations
  413. # [12:48] <annevk3> e.g. Gecko
  414. # [12:50] <hsivonen> the reason why it is fatal in Gecko is that Gecko's entity resolver tricks expat into thinking that expat has seen all external entities
  415. # [12:50] <hsivonen> if the entity resolver weren't tricking expat, it wouldn't be fatal
  416. # [12:52] <hsivonen> even if Gecko weren't tricking expat like this and expat reported the skipped entity to the application, the application could opt to do fatal stuff with that information
  417. # [12:53] <Philip`> Why is Gecko tricking expat like this?
  418. # [12:53] <hsivonen> (I'm not trying to say that Gecko's behavior here is good. Just that it's not an XML processor bug and that the behavior taken as a whole is not non-conforming)
  419. # [12:53] <hsivonen> Philip`: expat doesn't have a mode where it would read certain DTDs
  420. # [12:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: it either wants to read all or none
  421. # [12:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: Gecko wants it to read some
  422. # [12:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: so when Gecko doesn't want it to read a DTD, the entity resolver resolves unwanted DTDs to a zero-length stream
  423. # [12:54] <hsivonen> which from the point of view of the XML spec is different from not trying to resolve at all
  424. # [12:55] <Philip`> Ah, right
  425. # [12:56] <hsivonen> one might argue that a better fix would have been extending the entity resolver interface to have an "I don't want to resolve this" return value
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  429. # [13:30] <annevk3> I don't particularly care what browsers do there for now
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  436. # [14:42] <gsnedders> Meh. No way to get a Lenovo in any non-standard config. in the UK :(
  437. # [14:42] <gsnedders> No way to get a 64-bit OS :(
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  439. # [14:51] <gsnedders> hahahaha
  440. # [14:52] <gsnedders> The latest last week in html5 post is _awesome_.
  441. # [14:54] <doublec> hehe. true
  442. # [14:57] <Dashiva> Maybe we should add a link in the topic
  443. # [14:59] <Dashiva> Apparently I'm a novitiate. Is that like a novice and initiate in one?
  444. # [15:01] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why not just reinstall the OS?
  445. # [15:01] <gsnedders> Philip`: Don't Vista 32-bit and 64-bit have different license keys?
  446. # [15:02] <Philip`> gsnedders: Oh, I thought you were thinking of running a proper OS
  447. # [15:02] * gsnedders doesn't really want to run two OSes, and he needs either OS X or Windows
  448. # [15:03] <hsivonen> gsnedders: do you prefer Lenovo's hardware over Apple's
  449. # [15:03] <hsivonen> ?
  450. # [15:04] * Philip` doesn't know how the license/bitness things work, since he just downloaded "Microsoft Windows Vista Business DVD" and a licence key from MSDNAA and then installed it and it seemed to be the 32-bit version
  451. # [15:04] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I have little to choose between the two, but I'd rather the 10 hour battery life of the T400
  452. # [15:05] <Dashiva> Does standardssuck have transcripts yet?
  453. # [15:10] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I would on the whole prefer to be on a native *nix OS, but when I need long battery life, I start to have little choice
  454. # [15:10] <hsivonen> gsnedders: doesn't Ubuntu on Lenovo do the right battery thing?
  455. # [15:11] <gsnedders> hsivonen: There are one or two issues on it, but nothing major. My real problem is good photo editing/management software
  456. # [15:11] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I have seen nothing good on GNU/Linux at all
  457. # [15:12] <Philip`> You should write some web-based platform-independent photo editing/management software and then it wouldn't be a problem
  458. # [15:12] <gsnedders> Philip`: No.
  459. # [15:13] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'll use an OS with good software all ready.
  460. # [15:14] <Philip`> It's much easier if you simply relax your definition of "good"
  461. # [15:14] <gsnedders> I don't really want to dual-boot either, because then I have eternal fun debating size of partitions
  462. # [15:14] <Philip`> and then you could use Gimp or Krita or whatever
  463. # [15:15] <Philip`> Resizing partitions isn't really that hard
  464. # [15:16] <Philip`> at least on Linux (using LVM), and probably on Windows (using magical features of NTFS that must surely exist though I have no idea how to enable them)
  465. # [15:16] <gsnedders> It's annoying, though
  466. # [15:18] <Philip`> (I have no idea how partitioning works in OS X; I just drag the slidey bar and pray that it's not going to clobber all my data)
  467. # [15:19] <hsivonen> is there a slidey bar in OS X these days?
  468. # [15:19] <gsnedders> Philip`: It won't let me drag it here :(
  469. # [15:20] <Philip`> hsivonen: Yes, in the Disk Utility or whatever it's called
  470. # [15:21] <Philip`> http://www.creativetechs.com/iq/tip_images/DiskUtility-Resize.gif
  471. # [15:21] <hsivonen> Philip`: oh. I hadn't noticed.
  472. # [15:21] <gsnedders> Philip`: I can't grow one partition (HFS+) and shrink another (NTFS) in there :(
  473. # [15:22] <gsnedders> http://forum.notebookreview.com/showpost.php?p=4003347&postcount=30 — that doesn't make me want to use Ubuntu
  474. # [15:22] <Philip`> gsnedders: That's probably because OS X doesn't understand how to shrink NTFS - I guess you'd have to do it via Windows (or a third-party tool) instead
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  476. # [15:23] <Philip`> gsnedders: (I've only used it once, to shrink an HFS+ partition and create a new NTFS one (alongside the existing NTFS one created by Boot Camp))
  477. # [15:23] <gsnedders> Philip`: Ah, I just used the CLI to do that :)
  478. # [15:24] <Philip`> (Then I used the magic of Vista's NTFS symlinks to move my Steam games folder onto the new partition without having to modify or move or reinstall anything else, and it actually worked, which was nice)
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  484. # [15:48] <annevk3> gsnedders, use Flickr + whatever software they recommend
  485. # [15:48] <annevk3> Flickr uses some other app for editing which does all the basics :)
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  489. # [16:12] <gsnedders> Fx currently fails one test for HTTP parsing
  490. # [16:12] <gsnedders> I'm not sure if I really want it doing one of the things that makes it pass one of them
  491. # [16:13] <gsnedders> (the one failure currently is due to using null-terminated strings)
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  506. # [17:03] <takkaria> the TAG minutes show once again that the TAG just don't understand HTML5
  507. # [17:04] <annevk3> takkaria, hoping to get on lastweekinhtml5?
  508. # [17:05] <takkaria> heh
  509. # [17:05] <takkaria> not thought of that :)
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  511. # [17:05] <hsivonen> takkaria: URL?
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  513. # [17:05] <takkaria> hsivonen: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/23-minutes#item06
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  515. # [17:06] <BenMillard> I thought there was a detailed review of the HTML5 sectioning and heading elements linked to from this channel recently, but I can't find it in the logs or my history
  516. # [17:06] <BenMillard> any ideas?
  517. # [17:06] <BenMillard> it was on a blog
  518. # [17:06] <annevk3> BenMillard, it's linked from the latest this week in HTML5
  519. # [17:07] <annevk3> iirc
  520. # [17:07] <BenMillard> annevk3, you're a genius!
  521. # [17:08] * BenMillard pats annevk3 on the back.
  522. # [17:08] * BenMillard bookmarks the page.
  523. # [17:09] <annevk3> takkaria, I have the feeling "we"'re quite aligned with the TAG actually; it seems that sometimes they misunderstand HTML5 and value a different approach to spec writing
  524. # [17:09] <annevk3> but that is mostly an editorial issue and should therefore not cause much conflict
  525. # [17:10] <takkaria> the idea that, e.g. you can split the parsing section into "clean" and "not clean" and have them in seperate specs is mad, though
  526. # [17:11] <annevk3> it kind of depends on what they mean with "clean", "not clean", and "parsing" :)
  527. # [17:11] <takkaria> because processors will have to implement "not clean", and having them in seperate specs will only create duplication, confusion, and faulty implementation
  528. # [17:11] <annevk3> if by "clean" they mean writing and by "not clean" whatever browsers have to do, we'd be nearly there
  529. # [17:12] <annevk3> except that currently it's two separate sections rather than two separate specifications
  530. # [17:12] <takkaria> I guess. I get the impression they wouldn't be satisfied with an authoring guide and a specification though
  531. # [17:12] <annevk3> I wasn't talking about an authoring guide, I was talking about section 8.1
  532. # [17:12] <takkaria> they don't like the language specification including enough detail to write a browser with, afaict
  533. # [17:13] <takkaria> mm
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  535. # [17:14] <annevk3> seems kind of weird for the W3C to encourage specs that browsers can't interoperably implement :)
  536. # [17:14] <annevk3> maybe the F2F next week with the TAG will help
  537. # [17:15] <takkaria> I guess some of this comes down to my philosophy of language... the meaning of a language found in how the language is used. to try and specify the meaning of something whilst ignoring how it's used seems about the most futile and unrewarding task one can set oneself
  538. # [17:15] <hsivonen> takkaria: ah. old minutes. I wondered if there were new ones
  539. # [17:16] * takkaria hasn't been around much since the end of September, so they're new to me :)
  540. # [17:17] <hsivonen> takkaria: my story is that the "Writing" section is the clean section for parsing
  541. # [17:18] <Dashiva> Every time I search for things about java, I find articles from 2004 or older
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  543. # [17:19] <zcorpan> annevk3: the "clean" parsing spec could be a view of the spec proper with the steps after any parse error instead says "Abort."
  544. # [17:19] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  545. # [17:19] <hsivonen> Dashiva: everything has already been said about Java :-)
  546. # [17:19] <annevk3> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/10/09-minutes.html are the latest minutes
  547. # [17:20] <annevk3> next telcon is Oct 16
  548. # [17:21] <annevk3> zcorpan, like I said, it's unclear what is meant with "parsing" and "clean"
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  553. # [17:22] <Dashiva> hsivonen: I'm a bit hesitant to take advice about String vs StringBuffer from before StringBuilder even existed :)
  554. # [17:22] <takkaria> I like this bit from the minutes on the 24th:
  555. # [17:22] <takkaria> TVR: There is a lot of broken stuff out there, and that has to be acknowledged, but the market share argument is spurious.
  556. # [17:22] <takkaria> [scribe didn't understand why]
  557. # [17:23] <hsivonen> I like how irc.cgi mentioned in the TAG minutes actually depends on browser behavior that intertwines previously unspecified things.
  558. # [17:23] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  559. # [17:24] <annevk3> hsivonen, quite often documents produced by the TAG rely on some kind of error recovery :)
  560. # [17:24] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  561. # [17:24] <Dashiva> Says there's no reason to manually use stringbuffer since the JVM will automatically make one for most simple cases, makes sense. But on the other hand, stringbuffer is synced so has overhead compared to stringbuilder in single-threaded uses.
  562. # [17:24] <annevk3> especially character encoding
  563. # [17:25] <hsivonen> Dashiva: actually, it's javac that makes one
  564. # [17:26] <Dashiva> I'm new to the terminology. Some magic part of the system that isn't me does it :)
  565. # [17:26] <hsivonen> and nowadays javac should make a StringBuilder
  566. # [17:27] <Dashiva> Yeah, I'm delving into the byte code of a test class now, and it says stringbuilder. But I notice it creates new temporary stringbuilders for every if statement and other branches...
  567. # [17:33] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  568. # [17:38] <gsnedders> "AM: I'm new to this area... the WHATWG is new on my radar. Looking at the landscape, I wonder if the chances of having impact are so low that... well... should we use our time for other things?"
  569. # [17:40] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I started packing clothes for TPAC 2008 today
  570. # [17:40] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Heh. I'm in France! :P
  571. # [17:41] <BenMillard> gsnedders, yeah I read! the PS2 is already wrapped up in 2 jumpers and packed, btw ;)
  572. # [17:41] <annevk3> today? that's early :)
  573. # [17:41] <gsnedders> BenMillard: I have, beside me, F1: '05, NFS:HP2, a controller, and a memory card. And no PS2.
  574. # [17:41] * annevk3 usually packs half an hour before he leaves
  575. # [17:41] <BenMillard> gnsedders, perfect.
  576. # [17:42] <BenMillard> annevk3, this way gives me about a week of "oh shit I REALLY should pack that!" which, otherwise, would be occuring while at the actual event :D
  577. # [17:44] <BenMillard> LOL, my blog says I've made 2528 entries! http://projectcerbera.com/blog/archive
  578. # [17:44] * BenMillard makes a beeline for his build scripts...
  579. # [17:47] <gsnedders> HTTP is odd.
  580. # [17:48] * BenMillard noticed he wasn't resetting a counter when running the script repeatedly...d'oh
  581. # [17:48] <gsnedders> BenMillard: heh
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  583. # [17:51] <mcarter> has anyone seen this panel on html5 and websocket? http://www.svwebbuilder.com/page/10%2F29%2F2008+The+Chronicles+of+Web+Standard:+the+HTML+5,+the+Comet+and+the+WebSocket?t=anon
  584. # [17:51] <annevk3> BenMillard, you're not using some blog software?
  585. # [17:51] <mcarter> I saw it a week ago and emailed them and asked to be put on
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  587. # [17:54] <annevk3> it hasn't happened yet it seems?
  588. # [17:54] <annevk3> slightly out of date though, "Dion Almaer, Open Web Advocate at Google"
  589. # [17:55] <Dashiva> hsivonen: I don't support you know of a resource with information about how expensive the various bytecode instructions are?
  590. # [17:55] * Joins: renke3 (n=user@Ldda1.l.pppool.de)
  591. # [17:58] <BenMillard> annevk3, that's correct but it might change at some point
  592. # [17:59] <annevk3> mcarter, "Official Contributor for W3C HTML5" :)
  593. # [18:00] <mcarter> annevk3, =)
  594. # [18:00] <mcarter> annevk3, i am in the acknowledgments, after all
  595. # [18:01] <mcarter> and no one knows what whatwg is...
  596. # [18:01] <BenMillard> mcarter, so am I...it's a neat feeling :)
  597. # [18:09] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@72-254-101-138.client.stsn.net)
  598. # [18:10] <BenMillard> I'm going to split my 2008 collection into several pages...but where should I make those splits? http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2008/collection
  599. # [18:11] <BenMillard> I considered turning each heading into a page and using heading levels to produce URL depth, but /web/study/2008/list/navigation seems a bit longwinded...
  600. # [18:12] <BenMillard> if I split on <h2> and let the result pages have all their <h3> sections, a couple of pages will still have 200+ entries
  601. # [18:12] <BenMillard> s/result pages/resulting pages/
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  603. # [18:13] <BenMillard> Hixie, what manner of splitting would you find most useful? ^^^
  604. # [18:14] <BenMillard> I'll e-mail my mentors at Mozilla, see if they have a preference
  605. # [18:17] <mcarter> annevk3, oh, for the record, I didn't use that phrasing. I used "He is an officially recognized contributor to the W3C HTML5 specification, particularly for his work with the WebSocket proposal. "
  606. # [18:18] <mcarter> annevk3, the panel organizers couldn't even get my name right; much less hope that they'd describe my relationship to the spec properly =)
  607. # [18:18] <gsnedders> I do like how Opera fails all of my HTTP tests.
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  609. # [18:23] <BenMillard> Hixie, at the moment I think splitting the collection on <h2> will give the best balance but I'd still like your POV.
  610. # [18:26] <BenMillard> gsnedders, Nominet won't let me register ben.uk as a replacement for projectcerbera.com :(
  611. # [18:26] <BenMillard> gsnedders, so maybe I'll get http://b.co.uk/ to show how stupid it is to dissallow registrations in the 2nd level of the .uk ccTLD
  612. # [18:26] <gsnedders> BenMillard: :P
  613. # [18:26] <annevk3> mcarter, heh
  614. # [18:26] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Why not http://be.a.co.uk?
  615. # [18:27] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I'd like my protest registration to still be usable
  616. # [18:28] <annevk3> prolly can't have a label of one character at that position
  617. # [18:30] <BenMillard> annevk3, ah that's indeed what the WHOIS says...but there are ccTLDs which let you do that, it's just a bit more expensive.
  618. # [18:31] <BenMillard> (http://webwhois.nic.uk/cgi-bin/whois.cgi?query=b.co.uk&WHOIS+Submit.x=37&WHOIS+Submit.y=13)
  619. # [18:32] <BenMillard> I've actually been having a good but very slow conversation with someone who works there, so there's always hope for ben.uk
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  633. # [18:43] * gsnedders wonders what has just eaten over 1GB
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  640. # [19:05] <gsnedders> Planning on doing my AH Computing project and procrastinating and working on http-parsing instead… Not good.
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  642. # [19:11] <Philip`> Dashiva: Expensive in terms of execution time? That can vary by several orders of magnitude in a single run of the program, so it's kind of impossible to give an answer
  643. # [19:12] <Dashiva> The relative costs, not absolute
  644. # [19:13] <Philip`> The relative costs can vary by several orders of magnitude
  645. # [19:14] <Philip`> e.g. I guess a program would spend relatively more time doing arithmetic when it starts up, but that'll all get JITted to be really fast and it'll end up spending more time chasing pointers and getting cache misses or whatever
  646. # [19:16] <Dashiva> You're getting closer
  647. # [19:17] <Philip`> and you have to worry about e.g. garbage collection, where allocating memory has approximately zero immediate cost (since it might just be incrementing a pointer) but can have a much more significant longer-term cost
  648. # [19:17] <Philip`> so I'm not sure what kind of information exists that would be helpful for what you're asking for, and I'm not even sure what you're asking for :-)
  649. # [19:18] <Dashiva> Sure the information exists, that's how you optimize compilers :)
  650. # [19:19] <Philip`> If you're targetting JVM bytecode, you don't optimise your compiler, since that's the JVM's job :-)
  651. # [19:19] <Dashiva> Pushing an immediate operand and calling a virtual function aren't exactly on the same complexity level
  652. # [19:19] * Joins: famicom (i=famicom@5ED2F98E.cable.ziggo.nl)
  653. # [19:19] <Philip`> The JVM might inline that virtual function call so it has no cost at all
  654. # [19:20] <Dashiva> Not very virtual then
  655. # [19:20] <Philip`> The JVM can be sure that it's exactly equivalent to if it were virtual
  656. # [19:21] <Philip`> e.g. if it knows the object is of type T and no class exists that extends T, then it could directly call T's method without the virtual indirection
  657. # [19:22] <Philip`> And pushing an operand onto the stack doesn't have a well-defined cost either, because it'll all get translated into register-based code
  658. # [19:24] <Dashiva> Now suppose I know what kind of code I'm writing, and I know that virtual call is very virtual indeed
  659. # [19:25] <Philip`> I suppose so
  660. # [19:25] <Philip`> Now what? :-)
  661. # [19:26] <Dashiva> I'm proposing that it will be more expensive than a push :)
  662. # [19:26] <Philip`> But a push doesn't have a well-defined cost :-p
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  664. # [19:28] <Dashiva> Sure, but good job doing a function call without at least one push :P
  665. # [19:29] <Philip`> That's easy - you just specialise the function which does that function call, on the type of the object you're calling virtually, and then the function call itself is no longer virtual and can be inlined quite happily and maybe won't have any cost at all :-)
  666. # [19:30] <Philip`> whereas maybe that one push will force the JITter to spill registers and it'll slow the whole method horribly
  667. # [19:30] <Dashiva> You'd rather abuse the poor cache with duplicate code, shame on you
  668. # [19:31] <Philip`> Maybe most of the duplicates almost never get executed
  669. # [19:32] <Philip`> Anyway, I've got way more cache than I used to have RAM just a few years ago ;-)
  670. # [19:32] <Philip`> and I would say that's more than I used to have disk space a few years before that, but I think I'd be lying
  671. # [19:32] <Dashiva> I do have more RAM than I had disk space
  672. # [19:33] <Philip`> I have that, I just don't have more cache :-(
  673. # [19:33] <Dashiva> I suppose it depends on what level cahce you count
  674. # [19:33] <Philip`> I count the bigger one because it sounds more impressive
  675. # [19:34] <Dashiva> Those are like 4-8 MB now, aren't they?
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  677. # [19:35] <Philip`> I have 4MB, presumably shared between all the cores
  678. # [19:36] <Dashiva> Then again, I have memories of an apple II which I'm not even sure had a harddisk
  679. # [19:37] <Philip`> Oh, looks like it's 4MB shared between two cores, so my quad-core one must have 8MB total
  680. # [19:38] <Philip`> So, plenty of space to store duplicated code!
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  758. # Session Close: Wed Oct 15 00:00:00 2008

The end :)