/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-10-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Oct 18 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> i arrive conveniently in the afternoon
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> and the train stations in france tend to be quite helpful
  5. # [00:00] <gsnedders> I plan on getting a taxi, unless anyone will murder me for doing so
  6. # [00:01] <annevk3> my flight is at a similar time that Saturday gsnedders
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  8. # [00:01] <gsnedders> annevk3: Well, I just arrive on TGV from Lyon
  9. # [00:02] <gsnedders> (I am currently in Lyon, FWIW)
  10. # [00:03] <annevk3> I thought you meant Oct 25
  11. # [00:03] <gsnedders> Oh, then.
  12. # [00:03] <gsnedders> annevk3: I thought you meant tomorrrow :)
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  14. # [00:08] <gsnedders> annevk3: Want to do anything together next Sat then? :P
  15. # [00:12] <annevk3> dunno
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  22. # [00:29] <pingveno> Is there a way for users to write their own treebuilder in html5lib?
  23. # [00:30] <pingveno> I dug around in the documentation but I couldn't find anything.
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  28. # [00:58] <mcarter> annevk3, Hixie: i meant 10/28, tuesday -- don't know how/why I wrote thursday. Thanks; i'll send another email out
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  34. # [01:39] <kingryan> pingveno: its possible, but not easy
  35. # [01:39] <kingryan> pingveno: which language are yo using?
  36. # [01:39] <pingveno> Python
  37. # [01:40] <pingveno> Well, the tree is written in Cython but I'll use Python for the treebuilder
  38. # [01:40] <kingryan> ok, i mostly only know about the ruby port
  39. # [01:42] <pingveno> Ah, I see.
  40. # [01:42] <pingveno> Is html5lib designed so that it is *possible* to write a custom treebuilder?
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  42. # [01:45] <Philip`> pingveno: How would a custom treebuilder be any different to the treebuilders that are currently implemented?
  43. # [01:45] <pingveno> It would work with a tree implementation that I'm writing.
  44. # [01:45] * Philip` notices that his sentence didn't quite make sense
  45. # [01:45] * pingveno has seen much worse.
  46. # [01:46] <Philip`> I think I meant "How would a custom treebuilder be implemented any differently to the treebuilders that are currently implemented?"
  47. # [01:46] <pingveno> Ah
  48. # [01:46] <pingveno> I'm not sure where to start. I can't find any documentation.
  49. # [01:46] <Philip`> like, there are currently n (standard) treebuilders, so I'd assume that adding a new one would just mean there's now n+1 treebuilders with no fundamental differences
  50. # [01:47] <Philip`> Ah, lack of documentation sounds like a significant problem with that :-(
  51. # [01:47] <pingveno> Yeah, it can be somewhat of a showstopper ;)
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  53. # [01:49] * Philip` has only ever looked at specific details of the treebuilders, and has no idea how it works from a high-level perspective
  54. # [01:50] <pingveno> Time to pull out da ol' text editor.
  55. # [01:51] <Philip`> As far as I'm aware, looking at the existing treebuilder code is probably all you can do, until someone who knows what they're talking about is present in this channel :-)
  56. # [01:51] <pingveno> It doesn't look terribly difficult to implement.
  57. # [01:53] <pingveno> I'm not sure how to go about doing inheritance though.
  58. # [01:53] <pingveno> from html5lib.treebuilders._base import ...
  59. # [01:53] <pingveno> Then inherit from that?
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  61. # [01:54] <Philip`> Might be easier with 'from html5lib.treebuilders import _base' and then refer to _base.Node etc, to avoid name collisions
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  63. # [01:55] <pingveno> Oh, true
  64. # [01:55] <Philip`> I suppose you'd then need to do something hacky to make html5lib/treebuilders/__init__.py's getTreeBuilder give you your own treebuilder - doesn't look like it's designed to be externally extensible
  65. # [01:59] * fakeolliej is now known as olliej
  66. # [01:59] <pingveno> Are you sure? It looks like it just initializes the TreeBuilder class.
  67. # [02:00] <Philip`> Hmm, I'm not sure at all
  68. # [02:00] <Philip`> I thought it was called automatically when you created an HTMLParser, but that seems to not be the case, so you can just pass in a treebuilder object directly
  69. # [02:01] <Philip`> It's definitely true that I don't know what I'm talking about, so I should probably just go to bed :-)
  70. # [02:01] <pingveno> East coast by chance?
  71. # [02:13] <Philip`> No, England
  72. # [02:15] <pingveno> Ah, quite a bit further.
  73. # [02:15] <pingveno> I'm on the US's west coast
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  80. # [03:15] <kingryan> anyone here know of any good tools for evaluating the accessibility of web pages?
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  109. # [08:59] <annevk3> http://www.w3.org/2008/10/16-tagmem-minutes.html
  110. # [08:59] <annevk3> TVR: '... But one more "old guy" that the 20 year olds won't listen to'
  111. # [09:04] * Quits: csarven (n=csarven@modemcable150.182-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) ("Leaving.")
  112. # [09:12] <hsivonen> I don't think the age is the key differentiator of way of thinking. I think exposure to the bug database of a browser engine is it.
  113. # [09:13] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  114. # [09:16] <annevk3> sounds plausible
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  117. # [09:24] <hsivonen> I'm not sure what to think about being the person mentioned as the potential Hixie surrogate
  118. # [09:25] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-189-201.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  119. # [09:25] <annevk3> If they don't get someopposition that panel will be boring
  120. # [09:27] <annevk3> it has three proponents so far and no "opponent"
  121. # [09:27] <annevk3> but then "none of us" is really opposed either, it's just that reality is sometimes different
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  123. # [10:00] * Morphous is now known as Amorphous
  124. # [10:07] <Hixie> that's the thing
  125. # [10:07] <Hixie> someone in the tag said they were surprised that i knew what the tag would say
  126. # [10:08] <Hixie> but it's pretty easy -- on any topic, they answer the same as i would answer, if i wasn't constrained by practical concerns
  127. # [10:08] <Hixie> e.g. with the passwords-in-the-clear thing -- obviously, you should never send passwords in the clear
  128. # [10:08] <Hixie> except, of course, when you can't afford to do otherwise and have to work with legacy UAs
  129. # [10:09] <Hixie> but the latter concerns seem to be given very little weight in tag discussions
  130. # [10:09] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  131. # [10:10] <Hixie> same with defining error handling -- obviously it would be better to not have to worry about that and just require everyone to write valid documents
  132. # [10:10] <Hixie> except, of course, that in reality people uniformly write non-conforming output
  133. # [10:10] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  134. # [10:10] <Hixie> same with content sniffing -- i'd love to have a labelling mechanism that was completely authoritative
  135. # [10:11] <Hixie> except, of course, that in reality people mislabel their content and the users want it to work anyway
  136. # [10:12] <Hixie> until the tag as a whole is willing to put the realities of the web ahead of theoretical purity, they'll never write finding and architecture documents that are applicable to specs that get wide deployment
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  138. # [10:13] * Parts: annevk3 (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  139. # [10:14] <Hixie> gsnedders: i'm packing. i'm bringing my ps2 games, do i need to bring anything else? e.g. controller?
  140. # [10:14] <gsnedders> Hixie: memory card?
  141. # [10:14] <gsnedders> Hixie: If it has anything useful for those games
  142. # [10:14] <gsnedders> Hixie: No controller needed, we have two.
  143. # [10:15] <BenMillard> Hixie, I'm bringing GT4 and GT3, gsnedders is bringing a couple as well
  144. # [10:15] <gsnedders> F1:05 and NFS:HP2
  145. # [10:15] <BenMillard> Hixie, bringing any GTAs? I've not played them much/at all on console
  146. # [10:16] <gsnedders> GTA rather sucks with > 1 person, though
  147. # [10:18] <Hixie> i have vice city and san andreas that i'll bring
  148. # [10:18] <Hixie> along with memory cards for save games
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  150. # [10:19] <Hixie> ok bed time
  151. # [10:19] <Hixie> nn
  152. # [10:20] <gsnedders> hmm… My memory card my have a save for SA too
  153. # [10:24] <BenMillard> I think there are "rampages" in GTA SA can be 2P on PS2
  154. # [10:25] <gsnedders> I never liked them
  155. # [10:25] <gsnedders> It just seemed clumsily done
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  157. # [10:53] <BenMillard> ok
  158. # [10:53] * gsnedders wonders what to do about supper tomorrow
  159. # [10:53] <gsnedders> I don't wanna be a loner!
  160. # [10:53] <gsnedders> :P
  161. # [10:54] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I'll want something to eat when I arrive at the hotel
  162. # [10:54] <gsnedders> BenMillard: When do you arrive?
  163. # [10:55] <BenMillard> gsnedders, in the evening, possibly quite late...let me see if I can narrow that down
  164. # [10:55] <BenMillard> I arrive in Cannes railway station around 7pm
  165. # [10:55] <gsnedders> Ah, that's plenty early enough
  166. # [10:56] <BenMillard> taxi from there to hotel, most likely
  167. # [10:56] <gsnedders> Yeah, we could probably head out somewhere at 8ish
  168. # [10:56] <BenMillard> cool :)
  169. # [10:56] <gsnedders> (reasonable time for French supper :))
  170. # [10:56] <gsnedders> meet you in lobby at 20:00?
  171. # [10:56] <BenMillard> sure, sounds like a plan :)
  172. # [10:57] <gsnedders> Whatever lobby there is :)
  173. # [10:57] <BenMillard> I like quite plain food...spicy stuff and weird stuff I generally can't eat
  174. # [10:57] <BenMillard> steak ftw
  175. # [10:57] <gsnedders> me too.
  176. # [10:57] <gsnedders> Not French steak though.
  177. # [10:57] <gsnedders> (which is cook very hot and very quickly, basically just sealing in all the blood and other juices)
  178. # [10:57] <BenMillard> ah, that's a good point
  179. # [10:58] <BenMillard> Hixie, I'll bring my web research on USB as well as having it online, as a failsafe
  180. # [11:00] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I could bring GTA2 with some custom levels which can be fun in 1P and spectating but it's for Windows PC and sometimes dislikes modern hardware
  181. # [11:01] <gsnedders> BenMillard: If it can live with a MBP for hardware, then you could bring it
  182. # [11:02] <BenMillard> gsnedders, what's MBP in that context?
  183. # [11:02] <gsnedders> BenMillard: MacBook Pro
  184. # [11:02] <BenMillard> gsnedders, well it's only 1 CD so we may as well try :)
  185. # [11:02] <gsnedders> :P
  186. # [11:02] <gsnedders> (this is a mid '07 17" model, FWIW)
  187. # [11:04] <BenMillard> gsnedders, oh wait is the screen's aspect ratio about 4:3? GTA2 does have a "windowed" mode but I've not had much success using it...
  188. # [11:04] <gsnedders> BenMillard: No, it isn't
  189. # [11:05] <BenMillard> oh well, we can try it once and forget it if it seems difficult :)
  190. # [11:05] * gsnedders should probably install a security update or 40 for windows :P
  191. # [11:05] <BenMillard> gsnedders, these are the levels, to whet your appetite: http://projectcerbera.com/gta/2/multislayer/
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  195. # [11:27] * annevk3 is almost there :)
  196. # [11:41] <gsnedders> Heh. Each one of the major four browsers parses the response-line in a different way.
  197. # [11:43] * Parts: annevk3 (n=annevk@77.241.229.83)
  198. # [11:59] <gsnedders> Hmm. Opera uses ISO-8859-1 for this, IE uses Windows-1252
  199. # [12:00] <gsnedders> Fx just stops at U+007F
  200. # [12:00] <gsnedders> And Saf does something bizarre
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  202. # [12:02] <gsnedders> Ooo… I can get a bug fixed in IE7 probably!
  203. # [12:02] <gsnedders> (Because I have accidently found a security hole)
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  206. # [12:11] <gsnedders> Got "x-foo" header "h~U:geoffrey sneddon", expected "h
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  208. # [12:17] <Hemebond> That's quite a security hole. I don't know about anyone else but it certainly makes ME want to give you the keys to my house.
  209. # [12:17] <gsnedders> :P
  210. # [12:24] <Lachy_> Hixie, yt?
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  212. # [12:33] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  213. # [12:34] <Lachy> Hixie, Requiem 1.8 for Mac is available now
  214. # [12:34] <Lachy> works with iTunes 8
  215. # [12:34] <gsnedders> Lachy: Hixie is asleep, if you believe what he says
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  218. # [12:56] <Lachy> Hixie, see http://lachy.id.au/temp/
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  226. # [15:23] <hsivonen> http://www.flickr.com/photos/psd/2926229511/
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  228. # [15:44] <hsivonen> lol: "any sufficiently advanced form of lock-in is indistinguishable from malice"
  229. # [15:44] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  230. # [15:46] <hsivonen> (source: http://www.archive.org/details/TheUriIsTheThing)
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  234. # [16:21] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  235. # [16:22] <BenMillard> hsivonen, that's adapted from an Arthur C Clarke quote which I have on a mousepad. :)
  236. # [16:22] <BenMillard> small world...
  237. # [16:27] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  241. # [16:55] <BenMillard> I really dislike counting. :(
  242. # [16:58] <gsnedders> BenMillard: hint: 1 < 2
  243. # [17:00] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  244. # [17:00] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I'm also bringing a frisbee since it takes about 0 volume to pack :)
  245. # [17:01] <gsnedders> BenMillard: oooo…
  246. # [17:01] <gsnedders> Fun!
  247. # [17:01] <BenMillard> if anyone wants to borrow it or join us, contact gsnedders on IRC or something
  248. # [17:01] <gsnedders> :D
  249. # [17:02] <BenMillard> I imagine France has open areas where you can play non-destructive games, like UK?
  250. # [17:02] * hsivonen assumes GTA counts as a destructive game
  251. # [17:03] <BenMillard> hsivonen, it does if you get so frustrated that you wreck the controller :P
  252. # [17:03] * Philip` has heard of some people who play GTA non-destructively, and are careful to stop at red lights and follow the road markings carefully
  253. # [17:04] <gsnedders> BenMillard: We're on the south coast, so there'll be beaches, somewhere.
  254. # [17:05] <BenMillard> oh yeah, I want to touch the Mediterranean Sea at some point during the TPAC
  255. # [17:05] <BenMillard> just as one of those things
  256. # [17:06] <gsnedders> :P
  257. # [17:06] <gsnedders> If you bring swimming things, you should be able to swim
  258. # [17:08] <BenMillard> I won't be swimming, I'll touch it with a hand
  259. # [17:11] <gsnedders> BenMillard: I won't be cold :P
  260. # [17:11] <gsnedders> http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/5day.shtml?world=4164
  261. # [17:13] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I don't have any swimming things that fit...I could buy some beach shorts but it's a bit late now
  262. # [17:13] <BenMillard> and I haven't swam in, erm, several years
  263. # [17:13] <gsnedders> Nor have I :P
  264. # [17:15] <BenMillard> well, maybe we can figure something out while there
  265. # [17:16] <gsnedders> like not swimming? :P
  266. # [17:16] <BenMillard> who knows :)
  267. # [17:16] <gsnedders> oh shit.
  268. # [17:16] <gsnedders> gsnedders.com is about to expire
  269. # [17:16] <BenMillard> "about" as in "tomorrow" or "about" as in "1 month from now"?
  270. # [17:17] <gsnedders> BenMillard: next week
  271. # [17:17] <BenMillard> oh, looks like it's already expired to me
  272. # [17:17] <BenMillard> http://gsnedders.com/ yeah?
  273. # [17:17] <gsnedders> yeah
  274. # [17:17] <gsnedders> WTF?
  275. # [17:18] <BenMillard> it's just a load of adverts and promo links to me
  276. # [17:18] <BenMillard> which isn't what used to be there
  277. # [17:18] <gsnedders> I guess trying to renew that caused that
  278. # [17:18] <gsnedders> But I have no credit card, so I can't
  279. # [17:19] <BenMillard> good luck with it
  280. # [17:19] <BenMillard> renew it the same way you bought it originally, perhaps?
  281. # [17:20] <gsnedders> It should start working again in a few minutes. meh.
  282. # [17:20] <gsnedders> That's stupid.
  283. # [17:23] <gsnedders> Right, should be working again
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  294. # [17:47] <BenMillard> gsnedders, first Firefox gave me a message "This page isn't redirecting properly"
  295. # [17:47] * gsnedders blames DNS caching
  296. # [17:47] <BenMillard> gsnedders, tried again and I'm at a page of adds for Go Daddy.com, as before
  297. # [17:47] <BenMillard> I guess it might take a few more minutes? :)
  298. # [17:48] <gsnedders> Or change to something like OpenDNS where you can force a refresh of the cache ;P
  299. # [17:49] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@h-68-164-173-125.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) (Client Quit)
  300. # [17:49] <BenMillard> Hixie, I won't be able to count everything I wanted to count to give you summary statistics before TPAC, but when we meet you can point out anything you want me to count and I'll do that during November.
  301. # [17:56] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  302. # [18:12] * Philip` wonders if it's really possible to register a domain like xn--electroencephalography.net, or if there's going to be some annoying IDN restrictions to prevent such things
  303. # [18:14] <Philip`> At least one domain registrar seems happy with that for .net and .com (but no other TLD)
  304. # [18:25] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@cpe-069-134-123-228.nc.res.rr.com)
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  307. # [18:54] <BenMillard> cool, all of this fits in 1 suitcase! http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2008/10/packed-1.jpg
  308. # [18:59] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@ool-182f8118.dyn.optonline.net)
  309. # [19:04] <Hixie> Lachy: got it
  310. # [19:07] <Lachy> cool
  311. # [19:15] <BenMillard> Hixie, any days work well for you working through my collection with me?
  312. # [19:15] * Joins: timbl (n=timbl@217.41.230.96)
  313. # [19:17] <Hixie> BenMillard: no idea off hand yet
  314. # [19:18] <BenMillard> Hixie, okies. I expect to be in HTMLWG all Thursday and Friday, so we could split off from there if it gets boring, or meet randomly on an earlier day
  315. # [19:18] <BenMillard> gsnedders is probably the best person to ping if you want to contact me while at TPAC
  316. # [19:18] <gsnedders> BenMillard: But then think of what will be on lastweekinhtml5 if Hixie isn't in the meeting :P
  317. # [19:18] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Are you assuming you'll be with me 24/7?
  318. # [19:19] <BenMillard> gsnedders, no but you have my phone number :)
  319. # [19:19] <gsnedders> c'est vrai
  320. # [19:20] <Hixie> BenMillard: i'm in meetings all week in theory
  321. # [19:20] <gsnedders> Hixie: When do you arrive?
  322. # [19:20] <Hixie> BenMillard: but earlier in the week is probably best
  323. # [19:20] <Hixie> gsnedders: sunday night
  324. # [19:20] <Hixie> i leave in 45 minutes
  325. # [19:21] <BenMillard> Hixie, earlier works for me; I've got PFWG on Monday afternoon so maybe before that?
  326. # [19:21] <gsnedders> Hixie: what time?
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  329. # [19:26] <timbl_> looking over logs ... sees # [10:08] <Hixie> "but it's pretty easy -- on any topic, they [the TAG] answer the same as i would answer, if i wasn't constrained by practical concerns "
  330. # [19:27] <timbl_> Well, easy to say .. One could say "Yeah, always know what the WHATWG would say .. just what I would say if i were just thinking of the past and present and not the future" .
  331. # [19:27] <timbl_> But I don't say that for one thing the WHATWG like the TAG is a bunch of people .. and they would dsy different hings
  332. # [19:28] * timbl_ has flakey connection
  333. # [19:28] <timbl_> and anyway it would be disrespectful and impolite.
  334. # [19:34] * Joins: timbl (n=timbl@217.41.230.96)
  335. # [19:34] <BenMillard> timbl, nice to see you here :)
  336. # [19:34] <BenMillard> I think Hixie is close to setting off for TPAC, so he might not be available to reply right away
  337. # [19:35] * Quits: timbl (n=timbl@217.41.230.96) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  338. # [19:35] * Philip` discovers that Punycode "xn--blind" decodes into Braille characters ("⡑⡒⡊"), which is a strange coincidence
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  344. # [19:43] <Hixie> timbl_: when i say "the tag would say" i'm just referring to what publications from the tag would say, not to the opinions of individuals in the tag
  345. # [19:46] <timbl_> Well, the publications of the TAG are fairly few and far between.. but the discussion here is often about the minutes of the last meeting.
  346. # [19:48] <Hixie> sure, but the two sweeping statements i made were only meant to refer to the publications
  347. # [19:49] <Hixie> and i stand by them -- i think the tag's publications are theoretically sound
  348. # [19:49] <Hixie> which is fine, for a set of architectural principles
  349. # [19:49] <Hixie> to strive for
  350. # [19:49] <Hixie> but they're not achievable in specs that have to be actuall widely implemented
  351. # [19:50] <Hixie> for example, even the w3c sends passwords in the clear
  352. # [19:50] <Hixie> and not sniffing for video content in resources sent as text/plain simply isn't a marketable option
  353. # [19:51] <Hixie> i think hsivonen's comments earlier were spot on -- one's point of view starts to change when one has to deal with browser bugs
  354. # [19:52] <Hixie> (from the point of view of the implementors)
  355. # [19:52] <timbl_> The tag and the whatwg are sets of well-meaning smart people -- with similar goals but different emphasis.
  356. # [19:52] <timbl_> Beware the Second System Effect.
  357. # [19:52] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  358. # [19:53] <Hixie> or rather, why do you think the second system effect may be a problem here?
  359. # [19:53] <Hixie> (i'm assuming you're referring to the idea that when designing a system the second time from scratch, one tends to overengineer it. but the whatwg work is explicitly not designing anything from scratch.)
  360. # [19:54] <timbl_> It is easy when redesigning or doing a second run on the design to take into account the clear bugs in system 1 -- but in designing system 2 to fail to meet the design goals of system 1 which et system 1 designers toiled for in their time
  361. # [19:54] <timbl_> It may not be totally good match with Fred Vrroks experience.
  362. # [19:55] <timbl_> The WHATWG is concerned wit practical life building for a world with leacy web pages and legacy web browsers. The TAG is concerned about building a world of modular orthognal specs which ill support future developmesnt by otehrs to come
  363. # [19:56] * timbl_ scuse my typing
  364. # [19:56] <Hixie> i would posit that the second system effect is far far more likely with the xhtml2 work than with html5 :-) i mean, with html5, we're explicitly not redesigning anything. that's one of our core goals and requirements.
  365. # [19:56] <timbl_> These are different concens -- they are both important.
  366. # [19:57] <Hixie> the whatwg/html5 work is about extending the legacy system to support future developments
  367. # [19:57] <Hixie> it bridges both of the concerns you list
  368. # [19:57] <timbl_> Sometimes they seem to conflict but I think we have to try to be smart and get both
  369. # [19:57] <Hixie> the tag only seems to focus on the second of these two concerns, which is why its publications repeatedly make what the whatwgers consider elementary mistakes (not taking into account the legacy)
  370. # [19:57] <timbl_> Well, I would like ther to be a path by which browsers work with logacy markup, but don't encourage you to make it.
  371. # [19:58] <Hixie> that's the whatwg path :-)
  372. # [19:58] <Hixie> we make legacy markup invalid
  373. # [19:58] <Hixie> just like with html4 and before
  374. # [19:58] <timbl_> Well, I don't see browsers helping me tidy my pages.
  375. # [19:59] <timbl_> Or letting me (for what I declare to be my own web site) see the warnings of things which my CMS has generated
  376. # [19:59] <Hixie> you never will -- the vendors aren't willing to do that. that's not a whatwg problem, we (whatwg/html5) are just working with what constraints they give us
  377. # [19:59] <Hixie> warnings are shown in firefox and safari
  378. # [19:59] <Hixie> that's orthogonal to the specs
  379. # [20:00] <timbl_> Well, it isn't.
  380. # [20:00] <timbl_> In a way.
  381. # [20:00] <timbl_> You are dsigning a system.
  382. # [20:00] <timbl_> In a way, a system of servers and browsers and readers and publishers.
  383. # [20:00] <timbl_> You think about what readers and publishers will and won't be prepared to do a lot.
  384. # [20:01] <Hixie> right, otherwise we'll get ignored
  385. # [20:01] <timbl_> The people working on HTML5 largely ARE the bowser vendors.
  386. # [20:02] <timbl_> "- the vendors aren't willing to do that. that's not a whatwg problem," uggests they are not connected.
  387. # [20:02] <gsnedders> Then why aren't the browser vendors interested enough to work on other specs?
  388. # [20:02] <Hixie> of the 500 people in the htmlwg list and the 900 people in the whatwg list, at most 10% are browser vendors
  389. # [20:02] <Hixie> probably far, far less
  390. # [20:02] <gsnedders> How many browser vendors are working on XHTML2? Why is there not more interest there?
  391. # [20:03] <timbl_> gsnedders, we wre not talking about XHTML2, but about browses showing warnings when they have had to use error correction
  392. # [20:03] <Hixie> timbl_: i gotta go catch a train. shall we continue this conversation monday at lunch?
  393. # [20:04] <timbl_> Monday lunch alas I can't do
  394. # [20:04] <timbl_> ummmm unless i can move things around
  395. # [20:04] <Hixie> ok well ping me on irc, let me know what works for you -- i'm mostly free except monday dinner
  396. # [20:04] <Hixie> ttyl
  397. # [20:04] <Hixie> gotta go now
  398. # [20:04] <timbl_> Ok, bon voyage
  399. # [20:05] <gsnedders> timbl_: I'm just speaking more generally about future development
  400. # [20:05] <timbl_> I'll see if we I can do lunch
  401. # [20:05] <gsnedders> Hmm, I wonder what I'm doing about lunch tomorrow
  402. # [20:05] <gsnedders> I'm on TGV from Lyon :\
  403. # [20:06] <gsnedders> timbl_: I think the main point is there is no point in requiring UAs to show warnings in a spec if the requirement is just going to be ignored
  404. # [20:06] <timbl_> there are worse places to be than the tgv
  405. # [20:07] <timbl_> It should not be in the language spec at all, but a good practcie note
  406. # [20:07] <gsnedders> timbl_: Oh, sure, far worse. :)
  407. # [20:07] <gsnedders> timbl_: What use is even a good practice note if nobody is going to follow it?
  408. # [20:08] <timbl_> I know you folks like to put just everything in a big document ;-) ... but a good pracftce note about how to encourage good behavior
  409. # [20:08] <timbl_> If there is a concerted message that the web would get better if browser manufacturers implemenetd it, it could well.
  410. # [20:09] <gsnedders> I don't think we like having such a big document, I think we just think that editing one large monolithic document is easier (insofar as less time consuming) than editing several inter-linked documents
  411. # [20:09] <timbl_> It IS possible to make things better ... when you are enmired in describing the current mess, importnt also to set a long term course out of it
  412. # [20:09] * gsnedders ought to go and get food now :)
  413. # [20:09] <timbl_> Trouble with big doc -- dif for peopl eto read & implement the bit they want ..
  414. # [20:10] <timbl_> Ok, i have a plane soon
  415. # [20:10] <timbl_> maybe see you in fr
  416. # [20:10] <gsnedders> I guess I might see you around
  417. # [20:10] <timbl_> yup
  418. # [20:10] <gsnedders> (I the guy who looks far too young)
  419. # [20:10] <gsnedders> *I'm
  420. # [20:10] <gsnedders> :D
  421. # [20:10] <timbl_> (through being young or lookingit?)
  422. # [20:10] <gsnedders> the former
  423. # [20:11] * timbl_ thinks youngest TP attendee was 12
  424. # [20:11] * gsnedders is 16
  425. # [20:12] <timbl_> well, welcome to the TPAC ... we don't discriminate on gender, race, color, sexual preference, religion, and *certainly* not age :)
  426. # [20:13] * gsnedders has only been discriminated on three of them :)
  427. # [20:13] <gsnedders> :P
  428. # [20:13] <gsnedders> (which is rather sad)
  429. # [20:13] <Philip`> You only discriminate on ability to spend the time and money to attend ;-)
  430. # [20:14] <timbl_> That is a trciky one, as I know from experience that face-face meetings are so much more efefcive often and build trsut .. esp. in cases like this
  431. # [20:14] * gsnedders almost made it to the TPAC last year, but not on his own money :P
  432. # [20:14] <timbl_> I wish we could have a scolarship system fro people who don't ahev company /institute tavel
  433. # [20:14] <gsnedders> (as it happened, I am in France this week anyway, so it makes it cheaper to get there)
  434. # [20:15] <timbl_> someone whould bring it up at the plenary
  435. # [20:15] <timbl_> web foundation maybe could make that a goal
  436. # [20:15] * timbl_ in airport, gtg
  437. # [20:17] <gsnedders> adios
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  444. # [21:20] <jcranmer> does IE 8 have support for <video> ?
  445. # [21:25] <hsivonen> jcranmer: AFAIK, no
  446. # [21:25] <jcranmer> :-(
  447. # [21:25] <hsivonen> regarding error reporting in a browser:
  448. # [21:25] <jcranmer> guess that means youtube won't be using <video> anytime soon
  449. # [21:26] <hsivonen> I want to make the Java to C++ translator for the parser I'm working on to support code generation with error reporting and without
  450. # [21:26] <hsivonen> that should give us data about perf
  451. # [21:26] <hsivonen> I think perf would be the main motivation for not reporting parse errors
  452. # [21:27] <Lachy> jcranmer, YouTube could begin using <video> even without support from IE, since they'll need to supply Flash fallback anyway
  453. # [21:27] <hsivonen> also, it probably isn't worthwhile to track the error location column in a browser
  454. # [21:27] <hsivonen> I think I should write a pluggable code path that only does line numbers
  455. # [21:28] * Quits: famicom_ (i=famicom@5ED2F98E.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Leaving")
  456. # [21:29] <hsivonen> oh, and the other thing next to perf is that reporting errors brings along with it all the message localization issues
  457. # [21:32] <hsivonen> (In fact, the reason why I'm doing it without errors first on the C++ side is the trouble with hooking into the Firefox localization infrastructure properly)
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  466. # [22:27] <annevk3> yo
  467. # [22:28] <annevk3> the weather is indeed nice
  468. # [22:28] * annevk3 forgot to bring shorts
  469. # [22:33] <jcranmer> annevk3: selling shorts is illegal in some places now, didn't you know?
  470. # [22:33] <virtuelv> annevk3: so, mandelieu is shorts nice
  471. # [22:33] <virtuelv> good to know
  472. # [22:34] <virtuelv> I was wondering whether I should bring some or not
  473. # [22:35] <annevk3> it's slightly colder in the evening
  474. # [22:35] <annevk3> but dean had shorts, so it should be ok
  475. # [22:36] <gsnedders> I don't like shorts
  476. # [22:37] <jcranmer> I don't like pants
  477. # [22:37] * gsnedders blinks
  478. # [22:37] <gsnedders> oh, yeah, pants means that in en-us
  479. # [22:38] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@lal69-1-82-67-11-148.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  480. # [22:38] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@lal69-1-82-67-11-148.fbx.proxad.net)
  481. # [22:39] <gsnedders> Is there any web version of blame for HTML 5?
  482. # [22:40] * hsivonen expects Hixie is to blame
  483. # [22:40] <gsnedders> Yeah, but I want to know when to blame him
  484. # [22:40] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  485. # [22:41] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com)
  486. # [22:41] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  487. # [22:45] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  488. # [22:50] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  489. # [22:51] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why do you want a web version?
  490. # [22:51] <gsnedders> Philip`: Because I don't have a co on my laptop
  491. # [22:52] <Philip`> gsnedders: It's not hard to get one :-p
  492. # [22:52] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  493. # [22:52] <Philip`> gsnedders: but it wouldn't help at all with blame anyway
  494. # [22:52] <Philip`> (since that has to all be computed on the server)
  495. # [22:52] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  496. # [22:52] <Philip`> (which takes forever)
  497. # [22:52] <gsnedders> Philip`: git svn!
  498. # [22:52] <gsnedders> :P
  499. # [22:52] <Philip`> gsnedders: Oh, okay
  500. # [22:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: I have such a copy at home
  501. # [22:53] <gsnedders> Philip`: Why I don't have it on the laptop's HD is a good question
  502. # [22:55] <gsnedders> anyhow, g'nite
  503. # [22:55] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@lal69-1-82-67-11-148.fbx.proxad.net) ("Killin' teh intarwebs")
  504. # [23:08] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  505. # [23:12] <annevk3> anyone going to CSS tomorrow?
  506. # [23:17] <hsivonen> annevk3: tomorrow is secret, isn't it
  507. # [23:17] <Hemebond> http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/lifehacker/2008/10/reader_confessions.jpg
  508. # [23:21] * Quits: famicom__ (i=famicom@5ED2F98E.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Leaving")
  509. # [23:21] * Joins: famicom (i=famicom@5ED2F98E.cable.ziggo.nl)
  510. # [23:27] <annevk3> hsivonen, I think you can come, sicking and dbaron will prolly be there
  511. # [23:28] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  512. # [23:34] * virtuelv is pondering bringing running shoes
  513. # [23:39] * Quits: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  514. # [23:54] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@163.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  515. # Session Close: Sun Oct 19 00:00:00 2008

The end :)