/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-10-20 / end

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  41. # [05:47] <Hixie> i'm in the lobby if anyone's around
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  63. # [09:01] <Hixie> i'm in Isles B now.
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  65. # [09:06] * annevk4 will be there later
  66. # [09:06] * annevk4 needs food
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  72. # [09:18] * Hixie peers unhappily at 800ms pings to norway and california
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  76. # [09:21] <virtuelv> Hixie: if you're in mandelieu, everyone else are seeing slow connections
  77. # [09:21] * gsnedders is in Mandelieu
  78. # [09:21] <gsnedders> (and has slow connection)
  79. # [09:21] <gsnedders> I'm downstairs by the registration, with BenMillard
  80. # [09:22] <Hixie> cool
  81. # [09:22] <Hixie> hsivonen and i are in isles b
  82. # [09:22] <Hixie> let's make sure we meet up at the break
  83. # [09:22] <gsnedders> Hixie: What's there?
  84. # [09:22] <gsnedders> (and where?)
  85. # [09:22] <Hixie> web apps
  86. # [09:22] <gsnedders> ah
  87. # [09:22] <Hixie> anne's here too
  88. # [09:22] <Hixie> and jonas
  89. # [09:22] <gsnedders> Yeah, we just saw anne
  90. # [09:23] * annevk4 just saw green hair on a photo
  91. # [09:23] <gsnedders> I guess if we go where anne went we'll find it
  92. # [09:23] <gsnedders> I guess if I come in you'll all want to see :P
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  94. # [09:24] <Hixie> i'm assuming he's the one who looked confused when i said hi
  95. # [09:24] <Hixie> or rather, when i waved
  96. # [09:25] * Hixie waits for him to get back online
  97. # [09:27] * virtuelv is in the other web apps meeting
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  137. # [11:18] <timbl> Hixie?
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  139. # [11:19] <annevk4> we're in the Web Apps WG meeting
  140. # [11:19] <annevk4> that is, most of the WHATWG people who are here are there, including Hixie :)
  141. # [11:21] <timbl> I wondered about having a continuation of the discussion we had this morning about moving html users toward cleaner web pages (etc etc) on the panel slot at 9:10 tomorrow
  142. # [11:22] <Hixie> timbl: yo wassup
  143. # [11:23] <Hixie> sure
  144. # [11:23] <Hixie> though really any discussion on that should have hsivonen and some browser vendors
  145. # [11:23] <Hixie> (i can give my opinions but i'm not the one who can make changes on this)
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  149. # [11:25] <timbl_> Yes .. I thought that too
  150. # [11:25] <timbl_> This machine keeps swicthing access points
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  152. # [11:28] <gsnedders> timbl_: Could we not have a joint TAG/HTML WG meeting Thurs/Fri? Wouldn't that be better allowing more to be around?
  153. # [11:29] <timbl_> We do have one set up
  154. # [11:29] <gsnedders> We do? Oh.
  155. # [11:29] <timbl_> But it Thursday 11-12
  156. # [11:29] <annevk4> having some informal discussion as well seems good though
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  158. # [11:30] <gsnedders> The only think I ever saw was the draft agenda MikeSmith sent out early Sept.
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  162. # [11:31] <annevk4> especially since the meeting with the TAG is only an hour
  163. # [11:31] <annevk4> not a lot really given the amount of people that will be around
  164. # [11:31] * timbl looks for logs as he missed a bit
  165. # [11:31] <Hixie> i'm definitely in favour of discussing this earlier rather than in the htmlwg meeting
  166. # [11:31] <annevk4> timbl, http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg gives you logs
  167. # [11:31] <gsnedders> Yeah, I think we could certainly talk for longer
  168. # [11:32] <gsnedders> But there's also the point that only a tiny fraction of the HTML WG is around
  169. # [11:33] <hsivonen> is lunch going to at Pullman?
  170. # [11:33] <annevk4> yeah, same level as most meetings
  171. # [11:33] <gsnedders> Is that this level?
  172. # [11:33] <annevk4> yes :)
  173. # [11:33] <annevk4> other side of the staircase
  174. # [11:34] <gsnedders> ah
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  177. # [11:38] <timbl_> Ok Hixie, if you can get Henri to join that would be great
  178. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> I will attempt to get a revised HTML WG agenda out later today
  179. # [11:38] * gsnedders changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks! -- gsnedders had green hair, photos coming soon. :-) Anyone around at TPAC find him if you want to see them first.'
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  181. # [11:38] <annevk4> sweet
  182. # [11:39] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: k
  183. # [11:39] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: It seems to have changed a bit
  184. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> yeah
  185. # [11:39] * Joins: timbl (n=timbl@81.253.56.102)
  186. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> timbl_: was planning on having TAG from 11 to 12:30, so 1.5 hr instead of just one hour
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  188. # [11:40] <timbl> Ok
  189. # [11:41] <gsnedders> That still on the whole probably isn't really long enough
  190. # [11:41] <gsnedders> Having a meeting outwith the meeting probably wouldn't be a bad idea
  191. # [11:42] <gsnedders> (apologies for using Scottish English to confuse everyone)
  192. # [11:43] <timbl> you mean what used to be a meeting without a meeting in the sense of a farm without the city wall
  193. # [11:43] <timbl> ?
  194. # [11:43] <gsnedders> yeah
  195. # [11:43] <gsnedders> not without, outside of
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  197. # [11:43] <gsnedders> outwith is the opposite of within
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  199. # [11:45] <timbl> oe:without = scot:outwith != en:without
  200. # [11:46] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
  201. # [11:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes
  202. # [11:46] <Hixie> timbl: 9am tomorrow in the tag meeting?
  203. # [11:46] <Hixie> hsivonen: are you booked tomorrow morning yet?
  204. # [11:47] <timbl> did i say tomorrow .. no wednesday .. 9am in the panel slot
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  206. # [11:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: I've been asked to be in the PF room
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  208. # [11:48] <gsnedders> webarch?
  209. # [11:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's not clear if my interest topic fit the agenda tomorrow morning
  210. # [11:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: in the PF room, that is
  211. # [11:48] <timbl> well, with more a focus on HTML5
  212. # [11:49] <Hixie> timbl: oh i dunno if a panel would really be a good forum for this dicussion
  213. # [11:49] <timbl> Why would a pnel be worse than breakfast?
  214. # [11:50] <timbl> It is useful for other folks in both camps to see t earguments.
  215. # [11:50] <Hixie> because you won't get browser vendors to be honest with you in front of 1000 people
  216. # [11:50] <Hixie> if we want to actually get somewhere, we need an informal meeting
  217. # [11:51] <timbl> Well, if a group has one public posture and a different private one then they can't expect symapthy for their public one
  218. # [11:51] <timbl> I actually think (a) a lot can be achieved in public and (b) puhing the bounds a bit on accountability of brwser vendors doesn't hurt
  219. # [11:52] <timbl> There are always things which vendors need to keep to themselves.
  220. # [11:52] <timbl> We were talking about what sorts of scenario could work.
  221. # [11:53] <timbl> The motivatins of page authors etc
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  223. # [11:54] <Hixie> well i'm interested in making actual progress on the topic, but i don't think i'm the person to be on a panel on the topic
  224. # [11:54] <timbl> Maybe a panel isn't the place for getting people to change their points of view or think outside the box
  225. # [11:54] * annevk4 wonders what the topic is
  226. # [11:54] <timbl> If you aren't on the panel, Hixie, people would be constntly saying "well, in that case Hixie would say x"
  227. # [11:55] <timbl> Anne, possible panel on HTML5 and on Wed am at 9:10
  228. # [11:57] <annevk4> that's early :)
  229. # [11:57] <annevk4> I suppose I'm ok with it, but if it's the TAG versus me I'm not so sure ;)
  230. # [11:57] <timbl> On whether it is possible to make browsers and validators encourage people to make their code cleaner rather than just put out anything which meets the HTML5 parsing rules, etc
  231. # [11:58] <timbl> Well, it would be useful to actually not have a a vs. b
  232. # [11:58] <timbl> The TAG is a set of peopl.
  233. # [11:58] <timbl> The WHATWH is too.
  234. # [11:59] <Hixie> timbl: i think we all agree with each other on the goals -- certainly you and i agreed with each other this morning. The problem is that the proposals that have been put forward so far are UI proposals that the vendors aren't convinced by.
  235. # [11:59] <annevk4> true, though I think it's fair to say that both groups have a shared mindset
  236. # [11:59] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  237. # [11:59] <annevk4> to some extent
  238. # [11:59] <timbl> We are suggesting Hixie and me and Henri and ...
  239. # [11:59] <Hixie> timbl: if you put these ideas to the browser vendors in a public forum like a panel, you'll get intuitive push back and then people will remember that panel when they consider the idea later
  240. # [12:00] <Hixie> timbl: which will make them negatively predisposed
  241. # [12:00] <timbl> Maybe
  242. # [12:00] <Hixie> timbl: i think if you want to make actual progress on this you need to speak 1:1 with ui developers that work for browser vendors and ask them directly to help you
  243. # [12:00] * Joins: DanC_lap (n=connolly@81.253.48.198)
  244. # [12:00] <timbl> So you think a side meeting somewhere earlier rather than later...
  245. # [12:01] <Hixie> yeah
  246. # [12:01] <Hixie> i'd be happy to help faciliate that
  247. # [12:01] <annevk4> I don't think browsers will do more than error consoles and such; that is, won't implement end user visible UI for conformance errors
  248. # [12:01] <gsnedders> On a totally different note than that, has anyone actually looked at the t-shirt yet? What does it say after the W3C?
  249. # [12:01] <annevk4> there's a t-shirt?
  250. # [12:01] <timbl> An optional one? And one you can set to operate for certain web sites (like ones you are involved in generating)
  251. # [12:02] <gsnedders> annevk4: Got given one a registration
  252. # [12:02] <timbl> There is a shirt which says "W3C thanks the chairs"
  253. # [12:02] <gsnedders> timbl: ah.
  254. # [12:03] <timbl> (DHL lost a bunch of them so I didn't take one yet till the lost boxes arrive)
  255. # [12:03] <gsnedders> That sucks.
  256. # [12:04] <timbl> slife
  257. # [12:05] <annevk4> timbl, that might work, I guess browsers with extensions have that possibility already
  258. # [12:05] <annevk4> that is, Firefox
  259. # [12:05] <timbl> So who could we get in a browser vendors side discussion?
  260. # [12:05] <annevk4> I haven't investigated e.g. Firebug and others closely though for that functionality
  261. # [12:05] * annevk4 is not a UI guy
  262. # [12:05] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@81.253.61.76)
  263. # [12:06] <annevk4> though I'm pretty sure our UI guys wouldn't like to add default UI for that :)
  264. # [12:06] * Philip` used a validator extension in Firefox for a while, which showed a little green tick / red cross icon in the bottom-right of the screen for every page
  265. # [12:06] <gsnedders> timbl: It'd be good to get the iCab guy in, but he's not here
  266. # [12:06] <Hixie> sicking from mozilla is around, he'd be a good person to talk to
  267. # [12:06] <gsnedders> (iCab had a smily depending on conformance)
  268. # [12:07] * Quits: timbl (n=timbl@81.253.56.102) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  269. # [12:07] <hsivonen> does any CSS agent support multiple concurrent views of one DOM?
  270. # [12:08] * Philip` wonders what effect an HTML4 validator built into web browsers would have on HTML5 adoptance
  271. # [12:08] <Philip`> (because presumably it'd mark all HTML5 pages as invalid)
  272. # [12:08] <annevk4> hsivonen, not properly afaik
  273. # [12:08] * Joins: timbl (n=timbl@81.253.56.102)
  274. # [12:08] <hsivonen> annevk4: thanks
  275. # [12:08] <timbl> A smiley is a 1-bit verdict .. 1-bit verdicts don't motivate you unless you are near the boundary between failure and success
  276. # [12:08] <hsivonen> Philip`: very good point
  277. # [12:09] <timbl> If it were to give you a 56/100 then you might be interested in how to get 57
  278. # [12:09] <gsnedders> timbl: Sure, but iCab at least had _some_ UI by default, and I know of no other browser that even had that
  279. # [12:09] <timbl> Oh, Arena did
  280. # [12:09] <timbl> prob others
  281. # [12:09] <gsnedders> Arena? I've not even heard of that :)
  282. # [12:10] <hsivonen> (my IRC bandwidth sucks with laptop keyboards)
  283. # [12:10] <timbl> Dave Raggett's browser .. that was a while ago :)
  284. # [12:10] <gsnedders> I guess before I had ever used this internet thing :)
  285. # [12:11] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I always use my laptop, so I'm kinda used to it
  286. # [12:12] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@81.253.58.166) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  287. # [12:14] <timbl> "Raggett also used the Arena browser to show text flow around images, forms and other aspects of HTML at the First WWW Conference in Geneva in 1994. Arena was later used for development work at CERN." Arena demoed that one could do tables in HTML and that it was useful, and Dave R led a push to agree on table tags.
  288. # [12:14] <timbl> ()
  289. # [12:14] <gsnedders> 1994? When I was 2, then.
  290. # [12:14] <gsnedders> I don't really remember that.
  291. # [12:17] <Philip`> (...Adoptance? That's not a word. I think I meant adoption.)
  292. # [12:19] <timbl> (Well, it was fun. (Still is.) There was a big drop in interoperability when everyone did different tables, and then a push to get a standard as the web was filling up with ... but anyway .. strange that time sips by so fast that anyone was a young as 2 then. )
  293. # [12:19] <timbl> Well i have a keynote before that ... i could use it to talk about this
  294. # [12:20] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@81.253.47.147) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  297. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> wakaba: are you there?
  298. # [12:39] * Quits: timbl (n=timbl@81.253.56.102) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  299. # [12:41] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@81.253.47.100) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
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  306. # [13:25] <roc> If you install Firebug, and enable it globally (or for particular web sites, both are easy), it shows an error count in the bottom right of the window. Clicking on that count gives you the JS error console
  307. # [13:26] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-71-198-176-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  308. # [13:27] * Quits: annevk4 (n=annevk@81.253.49.28) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  309. # [13:29] <roc> Maybe we should give non-validating sites a performance penalty
  310. # [13:30] <roc> for some definition of "validating"
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  316. # [14:00] <hendry> hsivonen: did you say 2pm for tag?
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  319. # [14:08] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@81.253.9.120)
  320. # [14:08] * smedero waves to gsnedders
  321. # [14:08] * gsnedders waves at smedero
  322. # [14:09] <smedero> gsnedders: how'd you end up getting from the train station at Cannes to Mandelieu?
  323. # [14:09] <smedero> taxi?
  324. # [14:09] <gsnedders> smedero: taxi, 25 euro
  325. # [14:09] <smedero> k-o, thanks
  326. # [14:10] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@81.253.9.163)
  327. # [14:12] * jcranmer is now known as jcranmer|breakfa
  328. # [14:12] * jcranmer|breakfa is now known as jcranmer
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  332. # [14:19] <wakaba> MikeSmith: hi
  333. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> wakaba: hey
  334. # [14:20] * Joins: DanC_lap (n=connolly@81.253.10.23)
  335. # [14:20] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: where are you?
  336. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: in Widgets joint meeting with TAG
  337. # [14:21] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Ah. I was kinda tempted by that. I'm just waiting for the other web apps WG
  338. # [14:21] * Joins: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@81.253.10.183)
  339. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: discussion with the TAG is about the proposed uri:// schema
  340. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: discussion with the TAG is about the proposed uri:// scheme
  341. # [14:21] <gsnedders> yeah, I know
  342. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> wakaba: see my private message
  343. # [14:23] <Philip`> (uri:// scheme? Is that implying that all other schemes are not URIs?)
  344. # [14:24] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@81.253.7.157) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  345. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> Philip`: sorry, I meant widget://
  346. # [14:25] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Ah, that makes more sense :-)
  347. # [14:26] <roc> I just had a brilliant idea!
  348. # [14:28] <roc> Web fonts for IE: Extend Dean Edwards' old IE7 script to parse @font-face, load TTF data with XHR, package it into EOT format, and stick it back in the @font-face as a data: URI
  349. # [14:29] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  350. # [14:30] <Philip`> roc: Seems easier to do the download-TTF-then-convert-to-EOT stages via a (caching) remote server, rather than in JS
  351. # [14:30] <roc> nah
  352. # [14:30] <roc> this way you just need one script that anyone can pull in with one line of code
  353. # [14:31] <roc> and IE does all the work
  354. # [14:31] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@81.253.12.105)
  355. # [14:32] <roc> I wonder how much of the CSSOM spec IE8 implements
  356. # [14:32] <Philip`> You can do it my way with just one script that anyone can pull in with one line of code, since somebody else is worrying about maintaining the server so that's not a concern, and it'll be much faster :-)
  357. # [14:33] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@194.110.194.1)
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  359. # [14:37] <roc> Maybe I shouldn't tell anyone, so that Microsoft doesn't disable data: in @font-face src until it's too late
  360. # [14:41] * Joins: annevk4 (n=annevk@81.253.13.113)
  361. # [14:43] <hsivonen> hendry: yeah, widgets/TAG happening now
  362. # [14:44] <Philip`> roc: Isn't there something like a 32KB limit on data: URIs in IE8?
  363. # [14:44] <Philip`> That'd make it pretty useless for fonts
  364. # [14:44] <roc> yeah
  365. # [14:44] <roc> apparently :-(
  366. # [14:44] <roc> blah
  367. # [14:45] <jcranmer> MS @font-face + EOT evangelism leave something to be desired
  368. # [14:45] <jcranmer> although ++ on roc's comment about MS probably not being willing to break compatibility
  369. # [14:46] <roc> well, I guess the reverse thing still works for Gecko and Webkit --- you can use script and the CSSOM to XHR-fetch an EOT font, unpack it, and put it back as a data: URL
  370. # [14:46] <roc> although i guess I shouldn't talk too much about that
  371. # [14:47] <Philip`> Can't someone just write a TTF-to-EOT conversion tool that ignores the licensing bits?
  372. # [14:47] <jcranmer> I'm quite sure someone would complain about that
  373. # [14:47] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  374. # [14:47] <hsivonen> roc: non-conforming sites could get a perf penalty if reporting errors to console has non-trivial cost
  375. # [14:48] <roc> it actuall does
  376. # [14:48] <Philip`> jcranmer: People complain about lots of things, but that doesn't stop those things from getting done :-)
  377. # [14:48] <jcranmer> it seems to me that the EOT proponents are trying to eat their cake and have it too
  378. # [14:48] * Quits: smedero_ (n=smedero@12-46-55-112.seatac.seattwa.wayport.net)
  379. # [14:49] <jcranmer> I think I recall one of them pointing out that it wasn't difficult to ignore the license bit
  380. # [14:50] <roc> Bert's summary talked about how an EOT recorded its domain binding and also how trivial it is for someone to change that information
  381. # [14:50] <jcranmer> okay, that's where it was
  382. # [14:51] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@81.253.12.105) ("Leaving")
  383. # [14:51] <zcorpan> hmm it seems something's gone wrong, either in the spec or in my impl, because it's not matching ie :(
  384. # [14:51] <zcorpan> (html color attributes)
  385. # [14:53] <annevk4> so per the latest argument, if you insert @font-face through script things are ok?
  386. # [14:53] <Philip`> roc: But they have a checksum, to prevent tampering!
  387. # [14:53] <Philip`> which is clearly foolproof
  388. # [14:53] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-096b8fad8779c841)
  389. # [14:55] <roc> Philip`: that's where it gets really silly. Bert's saying EOT is no problem w.r.t. DRM since it's so easily modified. In which case the checksum and XORing really are completely pointless complexity.
  390. # [14:55] <Philip`> (It's the sum of all bytes in the RootString, XORred with 0x50475342)
  391. # [14:55] <karlcow> [11:55] <timbl> There is a shirt which says "W3C thanks the chairs"
  392. # [14:55] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/10/w3c-chairs-tshirt
  393. # [14:55] <Philip`> The file format description says RootString is a "list of URLs" - does that actually mean URLs, or is it URL prefixes, or is it domains, or what?
  394. # [14:55] <roc> it doesn't say
  395. # [14:56] <roc> IE interprets it as a list of URL prefixes
  396. # [14:56] <Philip`> Okay
  397. # [14:57] <roc> which is important, because a) it really needs to be URL prefixes to be useful for any dynamic site and b) EOT proponents recommend using it to scope to domains except when c) they need to talk about how EOT binds fonts to "particular documents" or "full URLs"
  398. # [14:58] <roc> annevk4: that's more or less what I asked in my latest message
  399. # [15:05] <zcorpan> aha. i should be trimming all but the right-most 8 chars
  400. # [15:06] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de) (Remote closed the connection)
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  420. # [16:33] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/rendering/color-attributes/
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  424. # [16:36] <Philip`> "#123": got #010203, expected #112233
  425. # [16:36] <Philip`> says IE6, in all modes
  426. # [16:40] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  432. # [17:00] <annevk4> zcorpan, yo, see krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs for CSS logs
  433. # [17:01] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5laptop14.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
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  439. # [17:13] <Hixie> annevk4: did anyone actually raise the "null" issue in an e-mail anywhere?
  440. # [17:15] <Hixie> nm found it
  441. # [17:16] * Joins: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@g226202153.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  442. # [17:20] <hsivonen> any dinner plans?
  443. # [17:20] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-4a80193409db0408)
  444. # [17:23] <Hixie> i've got plans for tonight already
  445. # [17:23] <Hixie> but i'll be up for stuff the rest of the week
  446. # [17:25] * gsnedders was planning on following someone
  447. # [17:25] * annevk4 has no real plans yet
  448. # [17:27] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1226-ipbf3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
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  450. # [17:33] * Joins: renke3 (n=user@Lc5e6.l.pppool.de)
  451. # [17:33] <Lachy> I have no plans yet either
  452. # [17:36] <hsivonen> the session I'm in is ending in a minute
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  455. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen, Lachy : I'd be up for eating dinner somewhere close by
  456. # [17:39] <hsivonen> coming down in a moment
  457. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> k
  458. # [17:39] <annevk4> i'll join!
  459. # [17:39] <Lachy> MikeSmith, ok
  460. # [17:39] <gsnedders> I'll join too
  461. # [17:39] * Lachy votes McDonalds :-)
  462. # [17:39] * gsnedders takes out knife, and shows Lachy it
  463. # [17:40] <Lachy> that will be useful for cutting up my chips. Thanks
  464. # [17:40] <MikeSmith> does McDonalds have wine and/or beer?
  465. # [17:40] <Lachy> only in Germany, I think
  466. # [17:40] <gsnedders> nein!
  467. # [17:40] <annevk4> Lachy can go out on his own
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  470. # [17:44] <gsnedders> Oh well, I'll lurk around with you guys :P
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  477. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> so let's plan to meet at 7 in the lobby
  478. # [18:02] <annevk4> k
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  481. # [18:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: dinner group leaving the lobby at 19:00?
  482. # [18:08] * Joins: Maurice` (i=copyman@cc90688-a.emmen1.dr.home.nl)
  483. # [18:08] <hsivonen> I'll go to my hotel and come back for 19:00
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  485. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah
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  500. # [18:57] * renke3 is now known as renke
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  505. # [19:14] <Philip`> The page navigation on the BBC iPlayer is rather odd if you don't have CSS
  506. # [19:14] <Philip`> It uses an <ol> so it looks like "1. Previous" / "2. 1" / "3. 2" / "4. 3" / "5. 4" / "6. Next"
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  527. # [20:52] <zcorpan> i just learned that <!doctype html> doesn't work with asp.net 3.5
  528. # [20:53] <zcorpan> but the xslt-compat doctype works
  529. # [20:55] <zcorpan> Hixie: here authors have to choose between the xslt-compat doctype and violating a "should not", and using something else (e.g. xhtml transitional)
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  562. # [23:33] <jcranmer> g'morning, roc
  563. # [23:33] <roc> hi
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  568. # Session Close: Tue Oct 21 00:00:00 2008

The end :)