/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-10-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 23 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [01:21] <hsivonen> slides http://hsivonen.iki.fi/html-xml-ecosystem.pdf
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  15. # [01:28] <hober> awesome
  16. # [01:28] <hober> short, sweet, to the point
  17. # [01:35] <onitunes> hsivonen: nice
  18. # [01:36] <hsivonen> (the slides weren't projected due to last minute changes in logistics. instead, I read them out)
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  56. # [08:09] <phroggy> Microsoft: 'The WHATWG is not a "standards" organization we can work with, since it has no patent policy.'
  57. # [08:10] <phroggy> what exactly do they mean?
  58. # [08:10] <Hixie> they mean that if apple has a patent on something, and they ask for it to be put in the spec, then when microsoft implements canvas, they run the risk of being sued by apple
  59. # [08:10] <Hixie> which is a valid concern
  60. # [08:11] <Hixie> and is the main reason we are working with the w3c now
  61. # [08:12] <othermaciej> of course, the w3c doesn't protect from "random third-party patent troll who is not interested in the standard as such coincidentally has an old patent that could be read to apply to the spec"
  62. # [08:12] <othermaciej> which is the patent problem that tends to actually come up and affect Microsoft
  63. # [08:12] <othermaciej> but you do what you can
  64. # [08:12] <Hixie> yeah that's the real problem
  65. # [08:12] <Hixie> patent reform is what we really need
  66. # [08:14] <phroggy> indeed.
  67. # [08:16] <phroggy> the whole concept of patents was, in exchange for describing your invention to the public, the government grants you a monopoly for a limited time; the alternative was to protect it yourself as a trade secret, but if the secret dies with you, the public loses.
  68. # [08:17] <phroggy> but software patens typically don't describe anything that could be protected as a trade secret. They don't protect HOW it was done, they protect the whole concept of anybody doing anything like it.
  69. # [08:18] <Hixie> yup
  70. # [08:19] <phroggy> any web developer with half a brain could develop an online shopping system that lets you buy stuff with one click, although they'll probably give you a list of reasons why it would be a bad idea. Nobody was doing it before Amazon.com because nobody thought it was a good idea, not because nobody could figure out how to make it work.
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  72. # [08:20] <hsivonen> I'm in the lobby
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  74. # [08:23] <phroggy> so where will be the benefit to the public when Amazon's One-Click patent expires? What will the public have gained, that we wouldn't have gained if Amazon had never been granted the One-Click patent?
  75. # [08:23] <phroggy> rather, if Amazon had never applied for the One-Click patent?
  76. # [08:25] <phroggy> absolutely nothing. The original concept was of a two-way exchange: you publish your secrets, and we grant you exclusive rights for awhile.
  77. # [08:25] <phroggy> but if what you're publishing isn't of any value to the public whatsoever, then we gain nothing in exchange for granting you exclusive rights. It's not fair.
  78. # [08:26] <phroggy> </rant>
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  94. # [09:13] <gsnedders> Hixie: Hey!
  95. # [09:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
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  97. # [09:20] <gsnedders> Hixie: Can you stop your laptop beeping?
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  131. # [10:25] <phroggy> I believe this is a typo: "and the rules that apply to authors for produce conforming documents."
  132. # [10:25] <phroggy> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Why_does_HTML5_legitimise_tag_soup.3F
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  134. # [10:30] <Lachy> phroggy, fixed
  135. # [10:32] <annevk5> phroggy, in the future, feel free to fix it yourself :)
  136. # [10:32] <phroggy> :-)
  137. # [10:32] <phroggy> heh, you know, it didn't even occur to me that that was a wiki page.
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  142. # [10:36] <Hixie> phroggy: you have to be careful about raising issues here, last time someone complained about spam on the forums, for example, they became a forum admin.
  143. # [10:37] <hsivonen_> look like my screen server dropped off the net..
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  145. # [10:38] <phroggy> lol
  146. # [10:38] * phroggy hides
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  152. # [10:44] <phroggy> so the mailing list chatter about <input type="search"> has died down; it sounds like there's support for the basic idea but not necessarily for all the details of Apple's implementation (onsearch, incremental, results, autosave).
  153. # [10:45] <phroggy> I like Safari's features and I'd like to see something standardized, but I must admit, Apple's implementation is... weird.
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  156. # [10:50] <phroggy> so, is it worth fixing, and getting Apple on board with changes? Or should Safari's behavior be standardized, for other browsers to implement as-is?
  157. # [10:50] <phroggy> does Apple care?
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  180. # [11:49] * Philip` wonders if Kristof's repeated use of Visual Basic is just trolling
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  183. # [11:54] <Hixie> maybe but there's not really a good way of saying that :-)
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  185. # [12:06] <myakura> (isn't that what html-author is?
  186. # [12:06] <myakura> oops, wrong channel
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  231. # [15:44] * Hixie changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  251. # [16:14] <svl> http://kore-nordmann.de/blog/current_state_of_semantic_web.html#development
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  253. # [16:16] <Philip`> "XHTML 2 aimed to provide a more document centric format by adding <section> elements for better structure of document contents and omitting purely presentational markup. This move has been countered by the (X)HTML 5 initiative, which [...] " has also added elements like <section> for better structure of document contents
  254. # [16:16] <Philip`> There, I fixed it for them
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  263. # [16:39] <Hixie> aaronlev_: sounds like we're going to have to hook up on some table accessibility issue
  264. # [16:39] <Hixie> aaronlev_: do you know if you're working on such things any time soon?
  265. # [16:39] <Hixie> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=441445 in particular apparnetly
  266. # [16:40] <aaronlev_> Hixie: if you tell me its important to look at soon i'll slate it for next week
  267. # [16:40] <Hixie> i was gonna tell you the same thing
  268. # [16:40] <aaronlev_> i can do that
  269. # [16:40] <Hixie> i'm happier hooking my schedule to yours than vice versa :-)
  270. # [16:41] <aaronlev_> i was just going to do what you guys tell me :)
  271. # [16:41] <Hixie> okie dokie
  272. # [16:41] <Hixie> i'll get back to you when i start looking at it, should be relatively soon
  273. # [16:41] <Hixie> like, weeks
  274. # [16:41] <Hixie> not months
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  310. # [18:27] <Lachy> annevk5: yt?
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  318. # [18:41] <annevk5> Lachy, am now
  319. # [18:42] * annevk5 is taking a short break
  320. # [18:42] <Lachy> annevk5, daniel glazman has time to do an interview tonight if you want to do it, or marcos
  321. # [18:43] <annevk5> sounds cool
  322. # [18:43] <Lachy> he told me that he'll have time as soon as his meeting finishes, which should be in about 5 to 10 min
  323. # [18:43] <annevk5> oh, that fast?
  324. # [18:44] <Lachy> when would you like to do it?
  325. # [18:44] <annevk5> i suppose in 5min would work
  326. # [18:44] <annevk5> although finding a suitable location might be tricky
  327. # [18:44] <Lachy> ok
  328. # [18:44] <annevk5> we can do it in the hotel, but I believe the room marcos and I stay in is also used by the people swimming
  329. # [18:44] <Lachy> we could probably go into one of the meeting rooms, or outside on the balcony
  330. # [18:45] <annevk5> or at least a subset of them
  331. # [18:45] <Lachy> I'm in the main foyer now with Daniel, come down and we can find a place
  332. # [18:45] <annevk5> is that level 0 or 1?
  333. # [18:45] <Lachy> 1
  334. # [18:45] <annevk5> be there in a few secs
  335. # [19:00] <Philip`> What's the last icon in http://zkoss.org/img/browsers.png ?
  336. # [19:00] <Philip`> (Image has title="Supported browsers", and naturally no alt text)
  337. # [19:02] <dglazkov> camino
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  339. # [19:03] <Philip`> Ah, thanks
  340. # [19:04] * Philip` wonders why Opera is the only browser without any blue in its logo
  341. # [19:05] <jcranmer> Philip`: Netscape's isn't really blue
  342. # [19:05] <jcranmer> it's more green than blue
  343. # [19:06] * gsnedders wonders whether to jump on Hixie
  344. # [19:06] <gsnedders> I mean, he's just standing there talking
  345. # [19:06] <gsnedders> it's kinda tempting
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  347. # [19:06] <jcranmer> and you're typing on a computer (PDA?)
  348. # [19:06] <gsnedders> jcranmer: laptop
  349. # [19:07] <gsnedders> jcranmer: Dude, I'm at TPAC, we have laptops everywhere
  350. # [19:07] <jcranmer> even when I was at the summit, I only had my laptop on during the sessions
  351. # [19:07] <jcranmer> (Mozilla Summit)
  352. # [19:08] <Philip`> jcranmer: I'd say it's more like teal
  353. # [19:08] <Philip`> which is blue :-)
  354. # [19:08] <gsnedders> jcranmer: You so aren't geek enough.
  355. # [19:08] <jcranmer> it's blue-green
  356. # [19:08] <jcranmer> gsnedders: I bring my laptop with me nearly everywhere...
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  358. # [19:09] <gsnedders> jcranmer: :P
  359. # [19:09] <gsnedders> jcranmer: This is one of the few times I've seen, apart from during meals, Hixie without a laptop open
  360. # [19:09] <gsnedders> jcranmer: I'm actually basically ignoring hsivonen and annevk5 who are currently talking next to me
  361. # [19:10] * gsnedders thinks he ought to
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  363. # [19:11] * jcranmer heads off to class
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  392. # [23:03] <onitunes> can someone explain what this means: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#canvaspixelarray
  393. # [23:03] <Dashiva> What part of it?
  394. # [23:03] <onitunes> if I have a CanvasPixelArray, I do obj[0] and that returns...what?
  395. # [23:03] <onitunes> octet?
  396. # [23:03] <onitunes> what's that
  397. # [23:03] <onitunes> is that a number in the range 0-255?
  398. # [23:03] <Dashiva> octet is a byte
  399. # [23:03] <onitunes> yes, I realize that
  400. # [23:03] <onitunes> but JavaScript has no "byte" type
  401. # [23:04] <Dashiva> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-octet
  402. # [23:05] <Dashiva> That document also explains indexgetter and indexsetter
  403. # [23:06] <onitunes> where? I looked everywhere IndexGetter is listed, and it's all spec, not definition
  404. # [23:08] <Dashiva> "If the [IndexGetter] extended attribute appears on an operation with a single unsigned long argument, it indicates that an object that implements the interface can be indexed with an unsigned long, resulting in the same effect as calling the operation with the given index (for languages that support such object indexing)."
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  407. # [23:13] <onitunes> Dashiva: thanks, that was on a different page: http://www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/
  408. # [23:16] <onitunes> Dashiva: my apoligies, you linked to that page! not sure how I missed it
  409. # [23:17] <Dashiva> It's a long and messy toc, that's probably how :)
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  417. # Session Close: Fri Oct 24 00:00:00 2008

The end :)