/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-10-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 27 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <jcranmer> lemme work out for myself... in fall, the new 6:00 AM is the old 7:00 AM, so in fall the clock goes back an hour, so the timezone moves west 15°, so the differential falls an hour
  4. # [00:01] <gsnedders> jcranmer: Whether you're northern/southern hemisphere also has an affect
  5. # [00:01] <jcranmer> at least it only happens twice a year
  6. # [00:01] <gsnedders> s/affect/effect/
  7. # [00:02] <jcranmer> Coriolis effect!
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  25. # [02:08] <erlehmann> the game
  26. # [02:10] <annevk2> 6PM here, 2AM in Europe
  27. # [02:10] * annevk2 sighs
  28. # [02:10] <jcranmer> INTERNAL PARSE ERROR: Specific resolution of objects of class `game' with article `the' and qualifiers `[]' failed
  29. # [02:13] <Philip`> I get distracted by the pretty colours and don't get as far as trying to parse the utterance
  30. # [02:21] <Philip`> Hmm, my bank now says "The Internet browser you are using is not supported by online banking.", which is odd since it claims to support "Opera 9.x", and it worked a while ago with Opera 9.5, but now I'm using Opera 9.6 and it doesn't :-(
  31. # [02:22] <Philip`> Strangely, the layout is a bit broken in Opera normally, but if I tell Opera to identify as Firefox then it starts looking correct
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  81. # [10:39] <mcarter> annevk2, no luck on doing monday, sorry. everyone seems interested in tuesday
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  83. # [11:07] <annevk2> alright, fair enough
  84. # [11:08] * annevk2 just had some sleep and usefully wakes up 3AM local time
  85. # [11:08] <annevk2> guess I'll finish the episode of Heroes I was watching
  86. # [11:09] <annevk2> mcarter, thanks for trying anyway, will you write a blog entry for the WHATWG blog?
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  91. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> .me really wishes he could attend the get-together that mcarter is organizing
  92. # [12:08] <annevk2> yeah :)
  93. # [12:08] <annevk2> guess you're back home?
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  105. # [13:34] <nessy> annevk2: thanks for mentioning my lightning talk in your blog, btw :)
  106. # [13:34] <nessy> I didn't get around to actually chatting to you in Mandelieu
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  108. # [13:34] <annevk2> yeah, same here :/
  109. # [13:34] <annevk2> oh well, better luck next time
  110. # [13:35] <nessy> totally
  111. # [13:35] <nessy> did you see the talk?
  112. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> annevk2: still in Mandelieu
  113. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> nessy: was nice to meet you
  114. # [13:37] <annevk2> MikeSmith, I'm in Mountain View and should be vast asleep
  115. # [13:38] <nessy> hehe - I'm back in Sydney and also totally jetlagged
  116. # [13:38] <nessy> slept half the day
  117. # [13:38] <annevk2> nessy, yeah
  118. # [13:38] <nessy> MikeSmith: you're lucky! Mandelieu is really nice!
  119. # [13:38] <nessy> great meeting you, too!
  120. # [13:38] <annevk2> MikeSmith, oh lol, that was a late reply :)
  121. # [13:38] <nessy> now that I can put faces to names, makes it easier to chat on irc and in email :)
  122. # [13:39] <annevk2> MikeSmith, makes sense I guess, you guys had a Team day or some such?
  123. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> annevk2: aye
  124. # [14:08] <annevk2> http://blog.whatwg.org/bay-area-meetup-details
  125. # [14:08] <annevk2> mcarter, ^^
  126. # [14:13] <virtuelv> mikesmith is probably just still jetlagged from wednesday :-)
  127. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> I'm pretty much always jetlagged
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  151. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> http://blog.raphinou.com/2008/10/why-use-chrome-when-you-have-arora.html
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  153. # [16:14] <zcorpan> Hixie: you could use http://www.microsoft.com/isv/static/images/ie_icon.gif for the annotation boxes
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  155. # [16:35] <zcorpan> as i expected, character is actually utf-16 code unit (html-color-attributes)
  156. # [16:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: have you considered character vs. utf-16 code unit in html5?
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  158. # [16:37] <Hixie> i don't think it has come up much
  159. # [16:37] <zcorpan> or rather codepoint vs code unit
  160. # [16:38] <zcorpan> operating on codepoints is more expensive than operating on code units, i presume
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  164. # [16:50] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cbody%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.body.bgColor%3D%27%F0%90%91%BE%F0%90%91%BEf%27%3B%3C%2Fscript%3E
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  170. # [17:12] <zcorpan> gsnedders: hmm, it looks a bit weird without the dot at the <h2> level -- e.g. "5 Web browsers", "10 Things that you can't do ..."
  171. # [17:12] <gsnedders> zcorpan: see ISO 2145
  172. # [17:13] <zcorpan> gsnedders: still looks weird
  173. # [17:13] <zcorpan> perhaps some padding could do
  174. # [17:13] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Get the spec changed, then I'll change :P
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  176. # [17:18] <zcorpan> .secno::after { content:' '; white-space:pre } makes it look a bit better
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  178. # [17:23] * Philip` wonders if there's a trivial way to write a Python-like interactive interpreter in HTML/JS
  179. # [17:30] <Hixie> it's not clear that follow ISO2145 gains us anything :-)
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  181. # [17:33] <Philip`> It gains us a smug feeling of pedantic correctness
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  183. # [17:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: Fundamentally, Philip` is correct
  184. # [17:36] <gsnedders> Also, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2005JulSep/0003.html
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  186. # [17:38] <Philip`> "It is customary to separate the section number and the section title with a slightly larger space, e.g. an em space or two normal interword spaces."
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  188. # [18:05] * Lachy thinks the correct response to claims about not following ISO2145 is "I don't care"
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  194. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> Lachy: are you speaking from your perspective as a spec editor? if so, "I don't care" hardly seems like an appropriate response. Unless your goal is to piss people off or to get them to lose respect for you completely.
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  198. # [18:13] <Hixie> no, i think for ISO2145 the response "I don't care" is probably pretty appropriate, so long as what one does isn't too far from it.
  199. # [18:13] <Hixie> The W3C doesn't generally follow 2145 and as far as I know the e-mail gsnedders' cited is the only occurance of someone caring
  200. # [18:14] <gsnedders> I see no reason not to follow it, thoguh
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  204. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> maybe it's just me, but I would think taking a few minutes to write an explanation of why it's not relevant rather than saying "I don't care." might be more effective way to respond. but for those who prefer to tell people "I don't care", nobody's stopping you. But you might also try saying it to people face to face rather than just by e-mail, and see how people feel about it when you do that.
  205. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> not that I'm advocating use of ISO 2145 or saying that it is necessary at all to follow it
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  208. # [18:19] <annevk2> yeah, "I don't care" isn't a particularly constructive response
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  211. # [18:26] <Hixie> who exactly would i speak to face to face about ISO2145? gsnedders?
  212. # [18:26] <gsnedders> :D
  213. # [18:26] <Hixie> i would bet that outside the discussion, almost nobody knows what 2145 is event about
  214. # [18:26] <Hixie> even
  215. # [18:26] <Hixie> it's not like we're saying "ignore the TAG" or anything controversal like that here :-)
  216. # [18:29] * gsnedders stares at Amazon
  217. # [18:29] <gsnedders> 'Featured Books for "Humbert Humbert"'
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  221. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I mean in general saying "I don't care." to anybody face to face about a particular issue.
  222. # [18:33] <Hixie> i wouldn't be willing to make a blanket statement about that in either direction
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  225. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> well, the likely response that would get from me personally if somebody says that to me is a tendency on my part to want to kick them in the teeth
  226. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> but maybe that's just me
  227. # [18:34] <Hixie> i think it's helpful to know when someone doesn't care as opposed to feigned interest which is often seen at w3c meetings :-)
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  229. # [18:35] <Hixie> bbiab
  230. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, true
  231. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> I gotta drop off soon here too
  232. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> (dinner time)
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  241. # [19:04] <Philip`> So, uh, how am I meant to tell the difference between 'up' and '&' keys in keypress events in Opera, when they both set e.which=e.keyCode=38?
  242. # [19:05] <Hixie> either of them set charCode?
  243. # [19:06] <Philip`> No, it's always undefined
  244. # [19:06] <Hixie> keyIdentifier?
  245. # [19:07] <Philip`> No, it's always undefined
  246. # [19:07] <Hixie> you's sol
  247. # [19:07] <Philip`> Oh well, nobody will want to type '&' anyway
  248. # [19:07] <jcranmer> shouldn't & have a shift modifier?
  249. # [19:08] <Philip`> Depends on your keyboard layout
  250. # [19:09] <Philip`> i.e. yes so that's a good idea for a hack, but it's not a very elegant solution
  251. # [19:12] <gsnedders> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2979057018/
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  253. # [19:13] <Dashiva> gsnedders: You're number one now
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  258. # [19:14] <gsnedders> (Mr. Last Week, take note)
  259. # [19:14] <Dashiva> I wonder if he attended
  260. # [19:14] <gsnedders> If anyone wants to post that on the WHATWG blog, feel free (seeming Hixie said to post it there)
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  262. # [19:19] <Dashiva> http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/2008/10/tpacker.html
  263. # [19:19] <Dashiva> wikkid
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  266. # [19:23] * jcranmer notes that gsnedders reminds him a lot of a HS friend
  267. # [19:23] * gsnedders notes jcranmer is not a HS friend
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  269. # [19:24] <jcranmer> except for the hair
  270. # [19:25] * smedero wonders what part of gsnedders is left without the hair as a baseline
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  273. # [19:25] <gsnedders> smedero: The apparently lovely face that the hair hides?
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  275. # [19:34] <Lachy> gsnedders, are you going to post that to blog.whatwg.org?
  276. # [19:34] <gsnedders> someone else can
  277. # [19:34] <Lachy> ok
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  302. # [21:11] <hober> just saw this go by on twitter: http://www.addfullsize.com/
  303. # [21:12] <Philip`> Clearly it should be called highsrc
  304. # [21:12] <takkaria> sounds like they want data-fullsize=""
  305. # [21:14] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  306. # [21:15] <Philip`> No they don't - they want browsers to do something with it
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  309. # [21:16] <annevk2> that guy is basically campaigning for a new features
  310. # [21:16] <annevk2> feature, even
  311. # [21:16] <takkaria> yeah, but I can't imagine browsers ever supporting it natively
  312. # [21:16] <gsnedders> And specific UI for an attribute
  313. # [21:16] <annevk2> the idea has already failed in the past
  314. # [21:16] <annevk2> see lowsrc
  315. # [21:17] <annevk2> he doesn't really go into why this wouldn't have the same issues, etc.
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  318. # [21:23] <othermaciej> the idea of having a larger image with browser-native UI to pop it up is dumb, but arguably some markup-level affordance would be good to supply highres images for systems with UI scaling applied
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  331. # [21:58] <drew_> The idea behind fullsize id to make a common practice (clicking on a thumbnail to display a larger image), a standard.
  332. # [21:59] <Hixie> what would the benefit be?
  333. # [22:00] <Hixie> can't people just use <a href="[...].jpeg"><img src="[...]-thumbnail.jpeg" alt="Open full-size image of [...]"></a> ?
  334. # [22:00] <drew_> The benefit would be a very quick and very simple way to display a larger version of a thumbnail across all browsers without needing to use javascript.
  335. # [22:00] <Hixie> my example had no javascript
  336. # [22:00] <Hixie> and is pretty simple
  337. # [22:01] <drew_> yes people can do that.. but then why do they go through the trouble to make it look cool in javascript if that solution was good enough.. simple.. because it is not good enought and the web is progressing.
  338. # [22:01] <drew_> so.. why not make what is already common a standard.
  339. # [22:01] <annevk2> because people like to do it in different ways
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  341. # [22:01] <drew_> exactly
  342. # [22:01] <annevk2> e.g., offer buttons to browser through images, zoom, buttons, etc.
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  344. # [22:02] <annevk2> and handing all that off to the browser does not really seem needed and would be less flexible
  345. # [22:03] <drew_> with the fullsize attribute, you could comma separate multiple images, and have the browser render a gallery for you. It would add a much simpler and quicker way to view images.
  346. # [22:04] <annevk2> it wouldn't have the effects the Web author wanted
  347. # [22:05] <drew_> well if you wanted to write a custom solution.. you would still have the optioin to do so in javascript. in fact all pervious javascript scripts to handle this, will still work with fullsize.
  348. # [22:05] <annevk2> e.g., changing the background color, letting one image transform in another using some filter, etc.
  349. # [22:05] <annevk2> fullsize can be implemented using a simple javascript library and would in fact be more backwards compatible if done in a way as Hixie suggests
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  351. # [22:06] <takkaria> using a comma-seperated list to create a gallery would be a massive change to the idea of what <img> represents
  352. # [22:07] <drew_> HTML 5 added a footer tag.... you can do that with a div... but they added it because it was common practice... i would argue the same case for fullsize.. wouldn't you think ?
  353. # [22:08] <drew_> takkaria .. i totally agree.. that was just an idea i had.. and is in no way a final solution
  354. # [22:08] <takkaria> footers are way, way more common than clever javascript things to show images vaguely-fullscreen
  355. # [22:09] <drew_> even though footers may be way more common.. image zoomers are still common
  356. # [22:09] <Hixie> drew_: browsers can already today detect that the target of the image is an image and do what fullsize="" suggests
  357. # [22:09] <drew_> i am suggesting not requiring an Anchor tag
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  359. # [22:11] <drew_> i really appreciate the fact you guys are even talking about this :) i really hop that time will tell on this subject. if enough developers want this (that is what i made the website for)... it will be added as a standard
  360. # [22:13] <Hixie> it's not clear to me why we benefit from new syntax here since it is already possible for browsers to do what this does even without the new syntax
  361. # [22:14] <drew_> same way we benefit from a footer & header tag.
  362. # [22:14] <drew_> i don't expect everyone to agree on this.. but i do suspect a lot of web developers would find it very handy, i am hoping enough do to make it a standard.
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  365. # [22:20] <drew_> thanks guys!
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The end :)