/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-11-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 05 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <aboodman> so again, in the case of dedicated workers, you have worker.postMessage(). In the case of shared workers, you have worker.port.postMessage().
  4. # [00:01] <aboodman> the inside is also different.
  5. # [00:02] <sicking> i guess if you consider them different or not is a matter of definition. But they aren't *that* different IMHO
  6. # [00:03] <aboodman> well it is different. a developer must remember that in the case of dedicated workers you can call postMessage() on the worker object, but not on shared workers.
  7. # [00:03] <aboodman> I don't see why this should be the case.
  8. # [00:03] <Hixie> in the case of shared workers, it can't be optimised further since there are multiple ports
  9. # [00:04] <Hixie> it's not worker.port.postMessage()
  10. # [00:04] <Hixie> it's just myPort.postMessage()
  11. # [00:04] <Hixie> oh you mean on the outside
  12. # [00:04] <Hixie> not the inside
  13. # [00:04] <sicking> aboodman, making all cases as complicated as the most complicated isn't neccesarily a win IMHO
  14. # [00:04] <sicking> necessarily
  15. # [00:04] <aboodman> Hixie: yes, i was talking about the outside.
  16. # [00:04] <Hixie> we could remove the .port on the shared worker case, but that would be an oversimplification of the API, imho
  17. # [00:05] <Hixie> i don't understand why we'd want to expose the port only on one side
  18. # [00:05] <aboodman> Hixie: what difference would that make?
  19. # [00:05] <Hixie> that would be even mroe confusing
  20. # [00:05] <aboodman> Hixie: why would that be more confusing?
  21. # [00:06] <sicking> Hixie, the advantage of not having an implicit connect() is that you remove the correlation one-page-one-connection
  22. # [00:06] <Hixie> the answer to the question "Is this a MessagePort or something special?" would be "well..."
  23. # [00:06] <sicking> Hixie, so if you have some service that does server-db access for example and you want several such connections from a single page, you act the same way for each such connection
  24. # [00:07] <sicking> Hixie, and on the inside you don't care about what connection is from a new page and what is a new connection from an already existing page
  25. # [00:07] <aboodman> Since people are not that thrilled with startConversation/connect, I can make an alternate proposal that also collapses the shared worker/dedicated worker duality.
  26. # [00:07] <aboodman> but does not have startConversation
  27. # [00:08] <aboodman> OUTSIDE: var worker = new SharedWorker("foo.js", "foo"); worker.postMessage("ping");
  28. # [00:08] <sicking> aboodman, i do like the separation between shared and dedicated. Because it allows us to keep the dedicated simpler than the shared one inheritly can be
  29. # [00:09] <aboodman> INSIDE: onmessage = function(e) { e.messagePort.sendMessage("pong") }
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  31. # [00:09] <Hixie> look i don't mind going back to the generic mechanism we used to have, where shared and dedicated workers were indistinguishable, and there was exactly one mechanism
  32. # [00:09] <Hixie> but nobody liked that
  33. # [00:09] <Hixie> i don't really understand the point of trying to get that withotu actually getting it
  34. # [00:10] <Hixie> i don't have a problem with startConversation()
  35. # [00:10] <Hixie> i think it's fine
  36. # [00:11] <aboodman> Hixie, I think that my last proposal is almost exactly the same as your initial one, except that there is a first class Worker object.
  37. # [00:11] <aboodman> But the Worker object, does not have any postMessage() related apis on it.
  38. # [00:11] <Hixie> how does this address sicking's original complaints?
  39. # [00:12] <Hixie> (for a while the spec did have an api with a first class worker object with a pipe on it, btw)
  40. # [00:12] <aboodman> it doesn't, I was just clarifying that basically I am in favor of going back to your original design with a few minor alterations.
  41. # [00:13] <Hixie> i'm not, sicking said he wouldn't implement it :-)
  42. # [00:13] <aboodman> gotcha.
  43. # [00:15] <aboodman> sicking: I think that if we get rid of connect/startConveration then we can combine the two interfaces w/o adding any code at all to the DedicatedWorker case. I think this would be a win.
  44. # [00:15] <Hixie> why?
  45. # [00:15] <Hixie> (just curious)
  46. # [00:15] <Hixie> (not saying there's no reason it'd be a win)
  47. # [00:16] <aboodman> the same reason code reuse is usually good
  48. # [00:16] <sicking> aboodman, well, you'll have a weird implicit port created on the inside that isn't reachable until someone posts
  49. # [00:16] <aboodman> less opportunity for bugs.
  50. # [00:16] <sicking> aboodman, i know someone (maciej?) wasn't too exited about not being able to post out until someone had posted in
  51. # [00:16] <Hixie> are we talking inside or outside here? i'm confused. what are you saying you want to change exactly?
  52. # [00:17] <Hixie> there are use cases for posting in both directions first, we shouldn't preclude that in either case
  53. # [00:17] <aboodman> I don't think we need to preclude posting from outwardly first.
  54. # [00:17] <aboodman> s/from//
  55. # [00:17] <sicking> aboodman, how would you post out then?
  56. # [00:17] <Hixie> what are you saying you want to change exactly? relative to the current spec
  57. # [00:18] <sicking> aboodman, i.e. what object would you call postMessage on?
  58. # [00:18] <aboodman> in both the dedicated and shared case you'd call postmessage on the worker object.
  59. # [00:18] <sicking> aboodman, what would that send a message to on the shared worker
  60. # [00:18] <sicking> ?
  61. # [00:18] <aboodman> getting to that :)
  62. # [00:18] <aboodman> on the inside there are onconnect and onmessage events
  63. # [00:20] <aboodman> in both events you get a "port" (maybe not exactly the same thing currently called MessagePort) in the event object which allows you to talk back to the outer interface that sent you a message or connected.
  64. # [00:21] <aboodman> note: there is no global postMessage() or port object on the inside of workers for either the dedicated or shared case.
  65. # [00:21] <sicking> aboodman, 'in the event'? if you want to post outward first there is no event, no?
  66. # [00:21] <sicking> oh
  67. # [00:21] <aboodman> sicking: you get onconnect
  68. # [00:21] <aboodman> which is basically onload
  69. # [00:21] <aboodman> in the case of dedicated workers
  70. # [00:23] <sicking> hm
  71. # [00:23] <sicking> it still looks to me like you're adding complexity to the dedicated worker solely for the case of making it more similar to the shared one
  72. # [00:24] <aboodman> i have reduced the amount of added complexity to only the case where the worker wants to send messages outward first.
  73. # [00:25] <sicking> sure, you're adding just a little complexiy, but still seems like it's only for the sake of making it more similar to the dedicated worker
  74. # [00:26] <sicking> hm, btw, where do messages appear?
  75. # [00:26] <aboodman> i suppose. the global complexity is lower though. it seems like a great trade-off to me.
  76. # [00:26] <sicking> if i do w = new Worker(...); w.postMessage('foo');
  77. # [00:26] <sicking> where do i catch that on the inside?
  78. # [00:26] <aboodman> global onmessage event
  79. # [00:27] <sicking> so there's a global onmessage but no global postMessage?
  80. # [00:27] <aboodman> yes.
  81. # [00:27] <aboodman> that is the proposal.
  82. # [00:27] <aboodman> which makes sense functionally -- the relationship between workers and clients is 1 to many.
  83. # [00:28] <sicking> that seems unexpected given that we don't have that anywhere else
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  85. # [00:29] <aboodman> not sure what to tell you. it doesn't seem weird to me.
  86. # [00:30] <sicking> i still prefer what we currently have (possibly modulo removing startConversaion and the implicit call to connect() on shared workers)
  87. # [00:30] <sicking> aboodman, but do post to the list and see what others feel
  88. # [00:30] <aboodman> sicking: how do you think that shared workers should talk to the outside?
  89. # [00:32] <sicking> aboodman, if we remove implicit connect()?
  90. # [00:33] <aboodman> sicking: yeah, i don't understand what your proposal is for shared workers in general.
  91. # [00:34] <aboodman> the current spec for them doesn't make a lot of sense to me
  92. # [00:34] <sicking> start with as now
  93. # [00:34] <sicking> add a connect() method
  94. # [00:34] <sicking> remove .port
  95. # [00:34] <aboodman> i see.
  96. # [00:34] <sicking> when connect() is called a port is returned
  97. # [00:35] <sicking> and a 'connect' event is fired inside the worker
  98. # [00:35] <sicking> the connect event object holds the port for the other end of the channel
  99. # [00:35] <aboodman> i think part of the disconnect (hah!) is that you think connect() is a feature of shared workers only. i think it is useful for all workers. i actually think it is _less_ useful for shared workers, since you can get basically the same effect by just creating multiple instances of the shared worker.
  100. # [00:35] <aboodman> so if it isn't on dedicated workers, i wouldn't put it on shared workers
  101. # [00:36] <sicking> hmm
  102. # [00:36] <sicking> interesting idea
  103. # [00:36] <sicking> so just talking about shared workers for a sec
  104. # [00:36] <Hixie> wait, what's connect)?
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  106. # [00:36] <Hixie> connect()?
  107. # [00:37] <sicking> Hixie, in my described solution above it raises a connect event inside the worker with a port, and then returns the other port
  108. # [00:37] <sicking> aboodman, so just talking about shared workers for a sec, how would you do communication with a shared worker?
  109. # [00:38] <aboodman> i think that what i proposed above would be my ideal solution
  110. # [00:38] <sicking> so there is a worker.postMessage
  111. # [00:38] <aboodman> var worker = new SharedWorker("foo.js", "foo"); worker.postMessage("ping"); ||| onmessage = function(e) { e.messagePort.postMessage("pong"); }
  112. # [00:41] <sicking> aboodman, (still just talking about shared workers). So that looks nice, except the disconnect between onmessage/no-postMessage. So how about this: take that proposal, except that when a new shared worker is instantiated a 'connect' message is raised. That message contains a port that has postMessage/onmessage
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  115. # [00:42] <Hixie> sicking: why would we want that?
  116. # [00:42] <sicking> Hixie, want what?
  117. # [00:42] <aboodman> sicking: i prefer it w/o special cases for dedicated workers. i don't think the lack of a global postMessage() is a big deal.
  118. # [00:42] <Hixie> connect()
  119. # [00:42] <sicking> Hixie, there seems to have been some disconnect about that
  120. # [00:42] <Hixie> yeah sorry i'm not really paying much attention here, supposed to be on vacation :-)
  121. # [00:43] <Hixie> watching electrion coverage and replying to two e-mails at the same time too
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  123. # [00:45] <sicking> aboodman, still feels like doing that is just adding complexity to the dedicated worker for the sole purpose of having it more similar to the shared one
  124. # [00:45] <sicking> aboodman, dedicated workers are by nature simpler, why not let them be
  125. # [00:46] <sicking> aboodman, with this new proposal the difference is minimal
  126. # [00:47] <sicking> aboodman, no difference on the outside, and on the inside the only difference is that shared workers have to listen to 'connect' to get new incoming communication channels
  127. # [00:47] <sicking> aboodman, whereas the dedicated worker simply lets the global scope be the communication channel
  128. # [00:48] <aboodman> sicking: yes, it is a big improvement. i don't think the remaining differences are that big a deal.
  129. # [00:48] <aboodman> i still think it would be better if the inner interfaces were the same, but this difference won't bother me that much if it is what browser supported.
  130. # [00:49] <sicking> aboodman, i do really like to keep onmessage/postMessage in sync
  131. # [00:50] <aboodman> <shrug> ok.
  132. # [00:50] <sicking> wanna mail to the list or should I?
  133. # [00:50] <aboodman> i will
  134. # [00:50] <sicking> cool, do bring up both proposals
  135. # [00:50] <aboodman> which ones?
  136. # [00:51] <aboodman> oh you mean the two that are very close together.
  137. # [00:51] <sicking> right
  138. # [00:51] <aboodman> ok, sure.
  139. # [00:51] <sicking> thanks
  140. # [00:51] <aboodman> on the bright side, i believe this would mean no changes to things you've already implemented.
  141. # [00:51] <sicking> yup
  142. # [00:52] <sicking> that'd be the case with either of them
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  249. # [08:40] <BenMillard> I've finished analysing the <q> collection Philip` gathered: http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2008/quotes#pt
  250. # [08:43] <BenMillard> I e-mailed the list with my findings: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Nov/0011.html
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  254. # [09:00] <BenMillard> I also reviewed the implementability of internationalised automatic quote mark generation on <q> in relation to what HTML4 says and what HTML5 could say: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Nov/0012.html
  255. # [09:00] <BenMillard> basically, the feature seems far more trouble than it's worth
  256. # [09:01] <BenMillard> hmm, despite proofreading and revising those 2 messages several times over the past week there are still some bad typos :(
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  272. # [11:02] <yecril71> Why should interruptions be more problematic for accessibility than any other part of speech?
  273. # [11:07] <yecril71> If you want to mark up content for consistently and flexibly,
  274. # [11:07] <yecril71> there are other open standards that achieve them.
  275. # [11:08] <yecril71> However, you probably need a strong scientific background
  276. # [11:08] <yecril71> and several months of preparation to use them correctly.
  277. # [11:08] <yecril71> Otherwise your document will turn out into a big blob of nonsense markup.
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  279. # [11:10] <yecril71> HTML should be simple enough for a high school child to use.
  280. # [11:12] <yecril71> An abbreviation is no more a reference than any word is.
  281. # [11:12] <hsivonen> yecril71: are you referring to a particular email message?
  282. # [11:12] <yecril71> Re: [whatwg] ---
  283. # [11:13] <yecril71> Every word, as it is written, is a reference to a notion,
  284. # [11:13] <yecril71> except where it is used obliquely, as a reference to itself.
  285. # [11:13] <yecril71> Those cases, however, are rare.
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  287. # [11:15] <yecril71> So a reference is too broad a term to name an element.
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  289. # [11:17] <yecril71> Sup and sub are not style elements.
  290. # [11:18] <yecril71> Text browsers cannot just render them transparently with no harm to the meaning.
  291. # [11:18] <yecril71> PRE is not a style element because it alters the parsing mode.
  292. # [11:19] <yecril71> VAR is not the same as function;
  293. # [11:20] <yecril71> you can have <VAR >f</VAR > and <I >f</I > with different meanings.
  294. # [11:20] <yecril71> I mean, both are functions,
  295. # [11:20] <yecril71> but the second refers to a well-known function
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  297. # [11:21] <yecril71> and the first is sort of local, incidental.
  298. # [11:21] <hsivonen> yecril71: does a reader appreciate the distinction?
  299. # [11:22] <yecril71> I think so; it is better to know what kind of a symbol is presented.
  300. # [11:22] <yecril71> Symbols are hard to read and any clues are welcome.
  301. # [11:23] <yecril71> (That is why code editors mark various elements with different colours).
  302. # [11:23] <hsivonen> I'd argue that one's literary expression sucks if it is so ambiguous that it wouldn't work on paper and the reader needs to inspect markup
  303. # [11:24] <yecril71> Who says it would not work on paper?
  304. # [11:24] <hsivonen> (assuming that usually sin() and f() aren't presented in different colors)
  305. # [11:24] <yecril71> But they are presented in different typefaces.
  306. # [11:25] <hsivonen> sin is often presented without italics, so your <i> example above doesn't apply
  307. # [11:25] <hsivonen> bad example from me
  308. # [11:25] <yecril71> (Actually, the ISO standard recomments well-known symbols to be typeset upright).
  309. # [11:25] <yecril71> recommends.
  310. # [11:25] <hsivonen> the ISO standard?
  311. # [11:26] <yecril71> The italic typeface could be styled out in a context where only symbols appear.
  312. # [11:26] <yecril71> There is an ISO standard for typesetting scientific publications.
  313. # [11:26] <yecril71> And they say well-known objects should be upright.
  314. # [11:27] <yecril71> It is rarely used because the TeX community did not fully embrace it.
  315. # [11:28] <hsivonen> :-)
  316. # [11:32] <yecril71> The case of symbols inserted into running text is a bit different.
  317. # [11:33] <yecril71> I think it would be acceptable to leave them in italics
  318. # [11:33] <yecril71> if typeface distinction is not available.
  319. # [11:35] <yecril71> I agree documents should be readable without styling;
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  321. # [11:35] <yecril71> they are just easier to read with proper styling than without.
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  323. # [11:49] <yecril71> One example of something unreadable without styling
  324. # [11:49] <yecril71> is 14<SUP ><U >25</U ></SUP >
  325. # [11:49] <yecril71> which in Polish means 2:15 PM.
  326. # [11:51] <yecril71> This probably should be coded as
  327. # [11:52] <yecril71> <time ><hrs >14</hrs ><sep >:</sep ><mins >25</mins ></time >
  328. # [11:53] <yecril71> where sep is display:none.
  329. # [11:57] <yecril71> End body tag otherwise means nothing when there is no body element open.
  330. # [12:04] <yecril71> Any markup language can be used to describe how content is tagged.
  331. # [12:05] <yecril71> The "HT" in "HTML" means it is text with hyperlinks for easy publishing on the Web.
  332. # [12:05] <yecril71> There are other markup schemes to do scientific research on text corpora.
  333. # [12:06] <yecril71> Not everything must be coded in HTML.
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  336. # [12:44] <yecril71> An attribute is a bad choice for a title because attributes are not rendered.
  337. # [12:44] <yecril71> At least should not be.
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  339. # [13:31] <Lachy> Oh No! Microsoft have discontinued Windows 3.x. http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/11/05/0257202&from=rss
  340. # [13:34] <jcranmer> Lachy: did you just join the 21st century?
  341. # [13:34] * hsivonen wonders what it feels like to maintain a severely legacy piece of software knowing what the state of the art is
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  345. # [13:48] <operairc> hello
  346. # [13:50] <Lachy> operairc, hi
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  374. # [15:22] <Lachy> any suggestions for what font I should use in my presentation slides? It has to be done in Powerpoint and so the font has to be available on Windows
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  377. # [15:29] <hsivonen> Lachy: Arial in that cas
  378. # [15:29] <hsivonen> e
  379. # [15:29] <Lachy> I wanted to avoid Arial
  380. # [15:30] <hsivonen> (alternatively, you could do your thing in Keynote, export to a bunch of TIFF, drag&drop the TIFF set onto a blank Keynote presentation to import them back and then export the resulting bitmap slides to PowerPoint)
  381. # [15:30] <Philip`> What version of Windows?
  382. # [15:30] <Lachy> I've chosen Book Antiqua for now
  383. # [15:30] <Philip`> (Vista has nicer fonts)
  384. # [15:30] <Lachy> I only have XP available
  385. # [15:31] <Philip`> Ah
  386. # [15:31] <Lachy> and I think the machines at the conference have XP too
  387. # [15:31] <Philip`> Comic Sans is clearly the sensible choice
  388. # [15:31] <Lachy> true, but I figured that's what everyone else would be using and wanted to be different
  389. # [15:32] <Philip`> You could use italic Comic Sans instead
  390. # [15:33] <Lachy> exporting keynote is possible. But I also have to create it with OperaShow to keep chaals happy. I'm supposed to present using OperaShow if possible, but I still need to have the powerpoint as a backup
  391. # [15:33] <hsivonen> wow. Windows has crazy bugs. now I need to sniff if my Python script runs on Windows...
  392. # [15:34] <hsivonen> one needs to stuff an extra quote into the argument of os.system() so that Windows can swallow the quote and then see the right command
  393. # [15:35] <Lachy> This is the panel I'm on, in which I need to give a 15 min presentation on HTML5. http://www.pubcon.com/sessions.cgi?action=view&record=150
  394. # [15:43] <Philip`> hsivonen: Do you really have to use os.system() and rely on the system shell, rather than using the subprocess module or something?
  395. # [15:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: I have no idea. os.system has served me well on OS X and Ubuntu
  396. # [15:47] <Philip`> http://docs.python.org/library/os.html#os.system suggests subprocess
  397. # [15:47] <Philip`> which should be more reliable since it doesn't use the shell, so there aren't all the problems of quoting and escaping
  398. # [15:49] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  399. # [15:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: that looks like more work than stuffing an extra quote in there
  400. # [15:52] <hsivonen> what should I use on windows in place of os.symlink?
  401. # [15:53] <Philip`> Pre-Vista doesn't have anything equivalent to symlinks, so you'd need to reconsider your problem from a higher level
  402. # [15:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan: do you read the WHATWG implemontors list?
  403. # [15:54] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes
  404. # [15:55] <zcorpan> though you had already replied when i saw the email
  405. # [15:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: OK. then I don't try to reply to the reply to my reply.
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  408. # [15:58] <hsivonen> Philip`: what about shortcuts? if I create shortcuts to make a directory appear in multiple places, will Python shutil follow shortcuts?
  409. # [15:59] <hsivonen> and will Java file IO follow shortcuts in paths?
  410. # [15:59] <Philip`> hsivonen: No (unless shutil is really crazy, which I don't think it is) - shortcuts are purely an Explorer thing, not a kernel or filesystem thing
  411. # [16:00] <hsivonen> hmm. that's not cool
  412. # [16:00] <Philip`> so the Win32 API doesn't understand shortcuts, and just treats them like plain files (which is all they are)
  413. # [16:01] <hsivonen> I guess I need to write a Python function that copies instead of symlinking on Windows
  414. # [16:01] <hsivonen> sigh
  415. # [16:01] <Philip`> (Pre-Vista NTFS does have junction points, which are kind of like symlinks to directories, but they're pretty obscure and nobody uses them)
  416. # [16:01] <jcranmer> /nick jcranmer|away
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  420. # [16:10] <Hixie> junction points are directory hard links
  421. # [16:10] <Hixie> (and mount points)
  422. # [16:11] <Philip`> They're not hard links in the Unixy sense, i.e. just a different name for the same node on disk - there's a distinction between the original directory and the junction points pointing to it
  423. # [16:12] <Hixie> oh?
  424. # [16:12] <Hixie> yeah i guess so
  425. # [16:13] <Hixie> ntfs also has multiple streams per file, which as far as i can tell is used exclusively by malware authors
  426. # [16:13] <Philip`> e.g. Wikipedia says "The dir command in Windows 2000 or later recognizes junction points, displaying <JUNCTION> instead of <DIR> in directory listings"
  427. # [16:13] <Hixie> yeah
  428. # [16:14] <Philip`> Maybe that's because anyone other than malware authors wants to avoid getting support calls from users with FAT filesystems :-)
  429. # [16:15] <othermaciej> hard links in the Unixy sense *are* different names for the same node on disk
  430. # [16:15] <othermaciej> whereas symlinks are different names for a path in the filesystem
  431. # [16:16] <othermaciej> it may be that junction points are not exactly like either
  432. # [16:16] <Philip`> othermaciej: That's what I meant about hard links
  433. # [16:16] <othermaciej> I see
  434. # [16:16] <Philip`> so I agree with you :-)
  435. # [16:17] <othermaciej> are junction points references to the filesystem object directly, or to a path?
  436. # [16:18] <othermaciej> to me that's the biggest difference between symlinks and hardlinks, more so than being indistinguishable from the original
  437. # [16:18] <Philip`> I guess the issue there is: if you move the pointed-at directory, does the junction point still point at it?
  438. # [16:18] <Hixie> junction points are basically mount points for other paths, iirc
  439. # [16:19] <Hixie> but what do i know
  440. # [16:19] <Philip`> and I don't know the answer to that
  441. # [16:19] <Hixie> ask me an html question!
  442. # [16:19] <Hixie> :-)
  443. # [16:22] * Philip` can't actually think of any HTML questions :-(
  444. # [16:22] <Hixie> hah
  445. # [16:22] <Hixie> i have 1000s, it's ok
  446. # [16:23] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@72.164.184.10) ("The computer fell asleep")
  447. # [16:24] <Philip`> Hmm, the fun fair outside my bedroom window has been playing loud music for an hour, and it's not even going to open until three hours from now
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  450. # [16:26] <Philip`> (Hooray for bonfire night, where we celebrate the capture and torture and mutilation and death of a suspected terrorist)
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  476. # [17:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: You still living where you were in July?
  477. # [17:34] <Philip`> gsnedders: No
  478. # [17:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: Where do you live now?
  479. # [17:35] <gsnedders> Philip`: Somewhere overlooking a park I guess :P
  480. # [17:35] <Philip`> gsnedders: Around http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=52.209553,0.131621&spn=0.003373,0.010085&t=h&z=17
  481. # [17:37] <Philip`> I have a nicer view from my room than I did in July :-)
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  484. # [17:52] <gsnedders> Yeah, you wouldn't see much from where you were then :)
  485. # [17:52] <gsnedders> Only 59 hours by train from Le Mans to Istabul! :P
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  501. # [18:33] <Hixie> 89.
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  504. # [18:43] <yecril71> What is wrong with
  505. # [18:43] <yecril71> <STRONG class="requirements" >Enter an odd number! <INPUT ></STRONG >?
  506. # [18:45] <yecril71> And consider that Hixie thinks it is right
  507. # [18:46] <yecril71> that labels do not work in Internet Explorer.
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  509. # [18:46] <yecril71> Since they officially should not work,
  510. # [18:46] <yecril71> it is not a big deal that they actually do not.
  511. # [18:56] <Hixie> ?
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  513. # [18:56] <gsnedders> Hixie: ?
  514. # [18:58] <Hixie> not sure what you meant
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  516. # [19:06] <gsnedders> Hixie: I mean the 89
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  518. # [19:08] <gsnedders> Hixie: My statement of the 59 hours made sense :P
  519. # [19:10] <Hixie> er i meant not sure what yecril71 meant, sorry
  520. # [19:15] <yecril71> I meant labels, Internet Explorer, inputs and error messages, of course.
  521. # [19:16] <yecril71> What if we put the input inside the validation message?
  522. # [19:16] <gsnedders> Hixie: But what was your 89?
  523. # [19:17] <yecril71> My 89 was fine, thanks.
  524. # [19:18] <yecril71> I graduated from high school.
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  570. # [22:22] <gsnedders> w00t
  571. # [22:22] <gsnedders> I really have made it with the latest last week post!
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  594. # Session Close: Thu Nov 06 00:00:00 2008

The end :)