/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-11-06 / end

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  91. # [09:20] <hsivonen> I wish Apple shipped a more robust file system.
  92. # [09:21] <hsivonen> here I am with a corrupt HFS+ and in the middle of a SuperDuper! and Time Machine dance
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  101. # [10:06] <zcorpan> hmm i'm a bit disappointed about markp's misinformation
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  107. # [10:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: in this week?
  108. # [10:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: in http://blog.whatwg.org/the-road-to-html-5-episode-1-the-section-element
  109. # [10:11] <hsivonen> I'm disappointed at Time Machine running the same brittle file system that it is backing up
  110. # [10:12] <hsivonen> I'm going to lose at least this day to hfs+
  111. # [10:13] <hsivonen> fortunately, I've got and offsite boot disk clone from immediately before tpac
  112. # [10:14] <hsivonen> I should probably go get it in case time machine turns out to be useless
  113. # [10:27] <hsivonen> I wonder if there's any way to get feedback of waht's going on when Finder beach balls to perform force fsck on the tm disk
  114. # [10:29] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20081024/ is getting a bit better
  115. # [10:33] <zcorpan> "DO ensure that any CSS properties on the html element are also specified on the body element." hmm that wasn't there when i reviewed the document last time
  116. # [10:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: did you get a response to your comments?
  117. # [10:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes
  118. # [10:35] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Oct/thread.html#msg25
  119. # [10:35] <zcorpan> though not all of my comments
  120. # [10:37] <hsivonen> more positive than the initial telecon reaction
  121. # [10:38] <zcorpan> well i was a bit harsh so that's understandable
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  123. # [10:43] * zcorpan wonders which browser tommy is working on
  124. # [10:46] <zcorpan> http://www.kvaleberg.com/ maybe
  125. # [10:49] <pergj> zcorpan: if you ask around in the (Opera) office, someone will know. :)
  126. # [10:53] <zcorpan> maybe
  127. # [10:54] <zcorpan> hah i didn't even look at his email address
  128. # [10:57] <pergj> There is only one name of a (former) browser vendor on our webpage, so you can probably figure it out by yourself.
  129. # [10:58] <zcorpan> openwave
  130. # [11:01] <zcorpan> "Browser
  131. # [11:01] <zcorpan> Bookmarks, enter url, history"
  132. # [11:01] <zcorpan> compelling features :)
  133. # [11:02] <zcorpan> do you use the html5 parser for application/xhtml+xml?
  134. # [11:03] <pergj> the product described on the webpage does not have much to do with the browser
  135. # [11:03] <zcorpan> is there more detailed information about the browser somewhere?
  136. # [11:04] <pergj> http://www.purplelabs.com/news-press-release-view.php?code=90
  137. # [11:05] <pergj> at the moment we are using the html5 parser for xhtml too
  138. # [11:06] <zcorpan> do you plan to change that?
  139. # [11:07] <pergj> we should at some point, but right now there are other priorities.
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  141. # [11:08] <zcorpan> hey tthorsen
  142. # [11:09] <tthorsen> Hi. I saw the irc log, but it took me some time to get XChat installed
  143. # [11:10] <tthorsen> did that mail I sent to the list make sense?
  144. # [11:11] <zcorpan> not sure if the parser change works but i noticed that none of the top 4 browsers match html5 right now
  145. # [11:11] <zcorpan> oh wait maybe firefox does
  146. # [11:11] <zcorpan> yep
  147. # [11:12] <zcorpan> did it break some site to follow html5?
  148. # [11:12] <tthorsen> Yes. http://bankrate.com
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  150. # [11:13] <pergj> for this particular case Opera is the same as the spec while firefox is not
  151. # [11:13] <pergj> I meant that Opera does the same as Tommy's proposed change
  152. # [11:13] <zcorpan> oh sorry i was looking at the wrong dom viewer. firefox also doesn't match the spec
  153. # [11:14] <pergj> What Firefox does is maybe slightly better
  154. # [11:14] <tthorsen> yes. Actually they both handle my example markup identically, but if you add some cdata after "thirddiv" (but still inside "firstform") you'll see a difference
  155. # [11:16] <tthorsen> Seems firefox is able to see that the first </form> belongs to the ignored "secondform" element, whereas Opera does it pretty much like my proposed change.
  156. # [11:17] <zcorpan> the proposed change seems to match ie's rendering
  157. # [11:17] <zcorpan> (try to set a border on the form)
  158. # [11:18] <zcorpan> (the first form i.e.)
  159. # [11:23] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cdiv%20id%3D%22firstdiv%22%3E%0D%0A%20%20%20A%0D%0A%20%20%20%3Cdiv%20id%3D%22seconddiv%22%3E%0D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cform%20id%3D%22firstform%22%20style%3Dborder%3Asolid%3E%0D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cdiv%20id%3D%22thirddiv%22%20style%3Dborder%3Adotted%20red%3E%0D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fform%3Exx%0D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fdiv
  160. # [11:23] <zcorpan> %3Eyy%0D%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fform%3E%0D%0A%20%20%20%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0D%0A%20%20%20B%0D%0A%3C%2Fdiv%3E
  161. # [11:23] <zcorpan> (uploaded)
  162. # [11:24] <zcorpan> i think this has changed back and forth and whatever you do will break some site
  163. # [11:26] <tthorsen> well, so long as a site works in the most popular browsers, then there must be some algorithm which will work
  164. # [11:27] <pergj> At least the "original" bankrate case is working in all browsers. Tommy's extended case is a different matter though.
  165. # [11:27] <zcorpan> btw did you implement the svg/mathml parts in the html5 parser?
  166. # [11:28] <pergj> no
  167. # [11:28] <zcorpan> ok
  168. # [11:28] <pergj> we never supported mathml or inline svg
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  172. # [11:33] <zcorpan> btw let me know if web dom core is of any help to you
  173. # [11:36] <pergj> ok. At the moment our DOM implementation has not caused us as much pain as our old handling of broken pages. :)
  174. # [11:37] <zcorpan> makes sense :)
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  183. # [12:11] <virtuelv> hmph
  184. # [12:12] <virtuelv> the single-document html5 spec is way too big, and the multipage version doesn't allow me to glance over an element index, or IDL defined by the spec
  185. # [12:24] <Philip`> virtuelv: You need a better browser, so it can handle the single page version with no problems
  186. # [12:24] <Philip`> virtuelv: Does the (multipage) table of contents not work as a rough index of elements?
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  191. # [12:55] <virtuelv> Philip`: not when you're looking for something like showNotification or showModalDialog
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  193. # [13:00] <Philip`> virtuelv: Ah, right
  194. # [13:01] <Philip`> If you can't use a decent browser, you could perhaps just download the HTML and use grep
  195. # [13:01] <Philip`> but that's not a very elegant solution :-(
  196. # [13:02] <Philip`> If the multipage version could include some extra index pages, what kind of thing would be most useful?
  197. # [13:02] <Philip`> (like, maybe a list of all the linked terms in the whole document? or a concatenation of all the IDL blocks? or something like that?)
  198. # [13:04] <virtuelv> I *have* a decent browser
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  200. # [13:14] <Philip`> Then you should be able to handle the single page version with no problems :-)
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  209. # [13:46] <hsivonen> hmm. apparently even Time Capsule wouldn't have avoided the problem I have
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  211. # [13:48] <hsivonen> Time Capsule exposes a sparse image instead of a file system access protocol, so presumably the kernel of the failing system that is being backed up manages the backup file system and can break it
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  213. # [13:50] <hsivonen> I want a Time Capsule where the backup file system isn't managed by the computer whose failure is the threat that TC is supposed to insure against
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  223. # [14:32] <Lachy> hsivonen, what happened to your file system?
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  227. # [14:52] <Philip`> hsivonen: You want two computers and a network and rsync
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  231. # [15:15] <hsivonen> Lachy: a windowserver malfunction lead to an unclean reboot with ctrl-cmd-power which apparently didn't flush file systems properly and corrupted both the boot and TM file systems
  232. # [15:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: rather, I want my file systems to be robust and isolated from the os x kernel
  233. # [15:16] <hsivonen> a raid nas with zfs internally and an nfs export would be great
  234. # [15:17] <Philip`> But you also want it to be cheap and easy to set up? :-)
  235. # [15:17] <hsivonen> of course
  236. # [15:17] <hsivonen> The Time Capsule form factor would be nice
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  261. # [15:56] <zcorpan> Hixie: id and hidden are in the wrong order in the list of global attributes
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  272. # [15:59] * zcorpan updated http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements
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  278. # [16:12] <Dashiva> Is there a specific term for all those crazy words Dmitry keeps coming up with?
  279. # [16:12] <Dashiva> Sament and bament and all that
  280. # [16:13] <Dashiva> Taking the start of the first word and the end of the last word
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  282. # [16:15] <yecril71> Presenting a confirmation dialogue box before the file selection dialogue box is just silly.
  283. # [16:15] <yecril71> What would the text be?
  284. # [16:16] <yecril71> "The following dialogue will allow you to choose a file from your local storage
  285. # [16:16] <yecril71> that the browser will be able to upload.
  286. # [16:16] <Lachy> I couldn't figure out what "Bament" was supposed to mean.
  287. # [16:17] <yecril71> Do you really want to do this?"
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  290. # [16:17] <yecril71> LOL
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  292. # [16:18] <Dashiva> Lachy: Apparently there's a "Baribute" too
  293. # [16:18] <zcorpan> Dashiva: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portmanteau_word ?
  294. # [16:19] <Lachy> hah
  295. # [16:20] <Dashiva> I can understand wanting to optimize for smaller documents, but optimizing for a smaller spec by making terms into nonsense...
  296. # [16:20] <Lachy> I wish someone would respond to Dmitry and explain to him why he's not getting a response to his absurd budget request
  297. # [16:20] <Philip`> I wish nobody would respond to Dmitry
  298. # [16:21] <Lachy> I meant off-list
  299. # [16:21] <Lachy> I can't do it cause he's on my do-not-respond list
  300. # [16:21] <zcorpan> he's on my do-not-read list
  301. # [16:22] <Lachy> some of his emails have entertainment value, like the first 3 lines of the budget request
  302. # [16:22] <Lachy> I didn't read beyond that
  303. # [16:22] <yecril71> I think Portugal is an interesting country to live in.
  304. # [16:23] <yecril71> Computers tend to come to people in Portugal by themselves.
  305. # [16:23] <Lachy> yecril71, what?
  306. # [16:23] <yecril71> Moreover, they come equipped with Microsoft XP in English.
  307. # [16:23] <Lachy> are your comments related to something in particular?
  308. # [16:23] <yecril71> And the poor Portuguese people cannot do anything with them.
  309. # [16:24] <yecril71> My comments are related to the file submission browse button label.
  310. # [16:24] <yecril71> I am also interested how the Catalan people would react to a label in Catalan
  311. # [16:24] <yecril71> on a Spanish page.
  312. # [16:25] <Philip`> According to his 209-slide presentation, "Sament" = "SAg eleMENT"
  313. # [16:25] <Philip`> and "Sag" = "Sent tAG"
  314. # [16:25] <Philip`> I'm guessing that "Bament" comes from "Browser tag element", but the etymology doesn't seem to be documented here
  315. # [16:26] <Philip`> and I can't guess what Kament is
  316. # [16:27] <yecril71> Having it the other way round makes them very uneasy.
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  319. # [16:30] <yecril71> I must say I am not very surprised.
  320. # [16:32] <yecril71> I like the idea of having semantics separate from structure very much.
  321. # [16:33] <yecril71> That would e.g. allow declaring the title attribute based on a set of rules.
  322. # [16:34] <yecril71> Repeating it for every item I want to describe is very inefficient and/or troublesome.
  323. # [16:35] <yecril71> From the point of view of HTML, it would be LINK[rel=semantics]
  324. # [16:35] <yecril71> and perhaps SCRIPT[type="text/xml"], or perhaps "text/something+xml".
  325. # [16:36] <yecril71> Where the LINK target can be a bookmark set on the SCRIPT.
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  328. # [16:37] <yecril71> Of course, it is not clear that XML would be the medium for semantical information.
  329. # [16:37] <yecril71> But I think it can be.
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  331. # [16:38] <yecril71> The big question is, what semantic information should be put there.
  332. # [16:38] <yecril71> And that depends on the author’s anticipation of what the user agents will be able to do with this information.
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  335. # [16:42] <zcorpan> does ie do something with <script type="text/xml-script">?
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  339. # [16:43] <yecril71> I do not think so; "text/xml" is recognized.
  340. # [16:43] <zcorpan> what does it do with text/xml?
  341. # [16:43] <yecril71> What is "text/xml-script" for?
  342. # [16:43] <zcorpan> don't know but it's used all over the place
  343. # [16:43] <yecril71> It makes an XML data island, available through
  344. # [16:43] <zcorpan> ah
  345. # [16:44] <yecril71> document.getElementByID("xmlscript").xml
  346. # [16:45] <yecril71> Where is "text/xml-script" used?
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  348. # [16:46] <zcorpan> http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=text%2Fxml-script&hl=en&btnG=Search+Code
  349. # [16:46] <yecril71> (Dangerous bend: an external script of type "text/xml" fails to load
  350. # [16:46] <yecril71> if it has an XML PI with encoding)
  351. # [16:48] <yecril71> Your search shows that it is not for Internet Explorer,
  352. # [16:48] <yecril71> it is for Internet Information Server.
  353. # [16:49] <zcorpan> ok
  354. # [16:53] <Philip`> <script type=text/xml> and <script language=xml> both do the funky XML thing in IE
  355. # [16:53] <Philip`> (unlike (text/)xml-script)
  356. # [16:53] <Philip`> at least in IE6
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  358. # [17:01] <yecril71> except that script[language=xml] means that handlers to events dispatched to the script
  359. # [17:01] <yecril71> should be processed by the XML interpreter.
  360. # [17:02] <yecril71> I am unable to find any usage for this.
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  363. # [17:05] <Philip`> I'm not quite sure what you mean
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  367. # [17:07] <Philip`> I'd assume <script type=text/xml>/<script language=xml> are equivalent in the same way that <script type=text/vbscript>/<script language=vbscript> are equivalent
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  369. # [17:15] <yecril71> Exactly in the same way.
  370. # [17:16] <yecril71> SCRIPT[language=vbscript] means that
  371. # [17:16] <yecril71> handlers to events dispatched to the script
  372. # [17:16] <yecril71> should be processed by Visual Basic Scripting edition.
  373. # [17:17] <yecril71> Example: <script type="text/javascript" language="vbscript" onload="MSGBOX &quot;Loaded&quot;,, &quot;Info&quot;" >
  374. # [17:18] <yecril71> Rather funny, and probably unsupported.
  375. # [17:24] <Philip`> Ah, that's odd - it looks like <script language> has two totally separate meanings
  376. # [17:25] <Philip`> (It sets the language of the loaded script, like what <script type> does; but it also sets the language for on* event handlers, like it does on every other element)
  377. # [17:27] <Hixie> language exists on other elements?
  378. # [17:28] <Philip`> Yes
  379. # [17:28] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20onload%3D%22alert%20'hello%20world'%22%20language%3D%22vbscript%22%3E
  380. # [17:28] <Philip`> says 'hello world' in IE6
  381. # [17:28] <Philip`> (and doesn't if you remove the language)
  382. # [17:29] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Ca%20href%3D%23%20onclick%3D%22alert%20'hello%20world'%22%20language%3Dvbscript%3Etest%3Ca%3E too
  383. # [17:29] <yecril71> I think Internet Explorer infers script type from script language.
  384. # [17:30] <yecril71> It is an extension since a script without a type does nothing
  385. # [17:30] <yecril71> (unless the type is provided by the Web server that serves the script
  386. # [17:30] <yecril71> as an external resource)
  387. # [17:31] <Philip`> I don't think that's true - it defaults to JScript if nothing is specified
  388. # [17:31] <Philip`> (e.g. if you use <script src=foo> and foo is sent as text/plain)
  389. # [17:31] <yecril71> Right, taking that back.
  390. # [17:32] <yecril71> In this case, it is a nonconforming extension.
  391. # [17:34] <yecril71> Philip`, how did you get Visual basic to understand ticks as string delimiters?
  392. # [17:36] <Philip`> yecril71: Uh, that's a good question
  393. # [17:37] <Philip`> I think the answer is that IE is crazy
  394. # [17:37] <yecril71> Sorta.
  395. # [17:37] <Philip`> If I write <body onload="alert '1'" language=vbscript><script language=vbscript>alert '2'</script> then it alerts "" and then "1"
  396. # [17:38] <Philip`> i.e. in the <script> it treats ' as a comment character, so it's an empty alert call
  397. # [17:38] <Philip`> where in the onload attribute, ' is just a quote character
  398. # [17:38] <Philip`> s/where/whereas/
  399. # [17:39] <Philip`> so the basic syntax of the VBScript language depends on the context in which it's used
  400. # [17:39] <Philip`> which is clearly insane
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  407. # [18:07] <Hixie> vbscript is insane, yes
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  445. # [21:08] <aaronlev> hsivonen: hi
  446. # [21:09] <hsivonen> aaronlev: hi
  447. # [21:09] <aaronlev> hsivonen: have you seen silvia's requirements doc for video a11y?
  448. # [21:09] <hsivonen> aaronlev: from before TPAC or after?
  449. # [21:09] <hsivonen> I have seen one from before
  450. # [21:09] <hsivonen> I haven't after
  451. # [21:10] <aaronlev> she just sent it out a couple days ago, https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Video_a11y_requirements
  452. # [21:10] <aaronlev> was wondering what you thought of it
  453. # [21:10] <hsivonen> I'll review it.
  454. # [21:10] * hsivonen has lost the whole day recovering from HFS+ damage
  455. # [21:11] <aaronlev> ouch
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  478. # Session Close: Fri Nov 07 00:00:00 2008

The end :)