/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-11-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 13 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:06] <jgraham> The rendering of <b><code>foo</b>bar</code> from HTML5 seems to match Firefox but not Safari, Opera or IE7
  8. # [00:07] <jgraham> I don't remember if someone already mentioned that
  9. # [00:08] <Hixie> yes, because Opera and IE7 make all tags use the AAA or their equivalent, and Safari has a different list of tags that Firefox.
  10. # [00:08] <Hixie> HTML5 uses the intersection of the set of tags from firefox and safari
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  13. # [00:10] <hsivonen> hmm. there are JavaFX questions on StackOverflow http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/javafx
  14. # [00:11] <jgraham> Hixie: It seems like copying Safari would be good here
  15. # [00:11] <Hixie> so it is claimed :-)
  16. # [00:12] <Hixie> any change we make changes the total number of bugs, sometimes up, sometimes down. we only know of the bugs that are reported. the judgement we have to make is determining whether there are more bugs introduced by the proposed change that we don't know about than there are left if we don't make the change.
  17. # [00:13] <hsivonen> many more questions tagged silverlight http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/silverlight not surprising
  18. # [00:13] <hsivonen> and even more Flash http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/flash
  19. # [00:13] <hsivonen> even more html http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/html
  20. # [00:14] <jgraham> It seems pretty likely that changes that make us render more like IE and fix issues with actual sites will move the bug count down rather than up. Do you have any specific concerns about the proposed changes?
  21. # [00:15] <Hixie> they make us more like IE for certain snippets, and less like IE for others.
  22. # [00:16] <jgraham> What becomes less like IE?
  23. # [00:17] <Hixie> there start being more <code> elements per <code> token in the DOM than there are in IE, for example.
  24. # [00:17] <Hixie> so scripts depending on a 1:1 mapping start failing
  25. # [00:18] <Hixie> it also changes the performance characteristics to be more expensive, so pages that IE might handle cheaply become expensive
  26. # [00:18] <Hixie> and so on
  27. # [00:18] <Hixie> in general we want to keep the number of formatting elements to an absolute minimum
  28. # [00:18] <Hixie> if we didn't, we'd just remove the difference between formatting elements and phrasing elements and just have them all do the AAA thing
  29. # [00:19] <jgraham> Isn't that generally true with the AAA stuff? It seems like there wouln't be much content that relied on that otherwise it would likely break in Firefox (albeit with different elements)
  30. # [00:19] <jgraham> (I am of course aware of the /topic)
  31. # [00:19] <jgraham> (that === 1:1 mapping)
  32. # [00:19] <Hixie> yes, it is true, and that's why both firefox and safari try to keep the list to a minimum too
  33. # [00:20] <Hixie> firefox doesn't have <code> in its list, you'll note
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  53. # [01:59] <Hixie> aboodman2: yt?
  54. # [02:00] <Hixie> aboodman2: cross-domain importScripts(), opinion?
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  85. # [06:07] <aboodman> Hixie: ping?
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  88. # [06:40] <Hixie> hey
  89. # [06:40] <Hixie> i was wondering if you knew why we'd made importScripts() block cross-domain imports
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  103. # [08:11] <heycam> Hixie, you can now use [IndexGetter=NoFunction] (and similarly for [IndexSetter], [NameGetter] and [NameSetter]) to cause the function not to exist in ES
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  105. # [08:27] <Hixie> heycam: did you come up with a solution to the issue of the objects in question actually having the properties or whatever the issue was?
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  113. # [09:05] <othermaciej> Hixie: the distinction of "really existing" is meaningless
  114. # [09:05] <othermaciej> but
  115. # [09:05] <othermaciej> it's worth specifying in what cases magic getter properties are enumerable
  116. # [09:05] <othermaciej> I don't think that can be specified in terms of delegating to a function in the IDL
  117. # [09:05] <othermaciej> nor is it really sound to specify behavior of the "in" operator that way
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  119. # [09:08] <Hixie> right, the enumerability is what i meant
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  143. # [11:06] <heycam> Hixie, not yet
  144. # [11:06] <heycam> othermaciej, is it really meaningless? it would change what Object.prototype.hasOwnProperty would return.
  145. # [11:07] * heycam checks how enumeration of properties is defined in es3
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  147. # [11:07] <othermaciej> heycam: I mean, there's no spec-level concept of "real" and "not real" properties
  148. # [11:08] <heycam> othermaciej, in which spec?
  149. # [11:08] <othermaciej> ECMA-262
  150. # [11:08] <heycam> no it only talks about properties
  151. # [11:08] <heycam> but magic [[Get]] will look like there are properties
  152. # [11:08] <othermaciej> I'm not sure it allows [[Get]] to be out of sync with [[HasProperty]] or hasOwnProperty
  153. # [11:09] <heycam> i think you can have whatever host object [[Get]] behaviour that you want, even if it is inconsistent with [[HasProperty]] etc.
  154. # [11:09] <jwalden> I think it must, because [[Get]] can be a getter function
  155. # [11:10] <othermaciej> I guess host objects can do anything
  156. # [11:10] <othermaciej> anyway
  157. # [11:10] <heycam> i think garrett showed that the properties were "real" though (for collections), so i'll be changing it to that
  158. # [11:10] <othermaciej> please don't use the term "real" or "actual"
  159. # [11:10] <othermaciej> it makes my skin crawl
  160. # [11:10] <heycam> ok :)
  161. # [11:10] <othermaciej> it doesn't mean anything
  162. # [11:10] <heycam> he showed that the objects had properties, rather than magic [[get]]
  163. # [11:10] <othermaciej> that doesn't mean anything either
  164. # [11:10] <heycam> ?
  165. # [11:11] <othermaciej> he showed that the dynamic properties are reflected by [[HasProperty]] (and hasOwnProperty) as well as by [[Get]]
  166. # [11:12] <othermaciej> another interesting question is whether they are enumerable (or conversely whether they are DontEnum or not); I don't know if he tested that
  167. # [11:13] <othermaciej> I don't think the IndexGetter IDL syntax is sufficient to capture these issues
  168. # [11:13] <heycam> no there'll likely need to be something additional to say whether the properties are enumerable
  169. # [11:13] <othermaciej> even the [[HasProperty]] part can't properly be captured
  170. # [11:14] <othermaciej> (as far as I know)
  171. # [11:15] <heycam> if html5 needs some objects to have non-standard [[HasProperty]] behaviour, then no that can't be captured yet either
  172. # [11:15] <othermaciej> because any value that an IDL method could return is in theory a possible valid value of a function
  173. # [11:15] <heycam> what do you mean by that?
  174. # [11:17] <heycam> anyway i'll do some testing tomorrow and see if i come up with something sensible
  175. # [11:17] * heycam tv
  176. # [11:18] <zcorpan> Hixie: appendChild() prevents elements from being appended to text nodes in http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core#legal-hierarchy
  177. # [11:20] <heycam> btw zcorpan i like how you can click on the <dfn>s in that document and get an index of what refers to it
  178. # [11:20] <zcorpan> heycam: you can do the same in the html5 spec
  179. # [11:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan: looks like this is a case of sequential readability vs. random access readability :-(
  180. # [11:21] <heycam> zcorpan, i can't get it to do that in html5 for me
  181. # [11:22] <zcorpan> heycam: the whatwg single-page version?
  182. # [11:23] <heycam> no i was looking at the multipage version
  183. # [11:23] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i guess in due course i might spec it in the algorithms in a way that matches how you'd sanely implement it
  184. # [11:24] <hsivonen> zcorpan: "The Node is a Document node and has zero or one child Element node. " could be clearer if it somehow made it unambiguous that the sentence doesn't restrict other types of children
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  186. # [11:24] * heycam cries as the single page version makes his opera unusable
  187. # [11:25] * heycam goes to watch True Blood instead
  188. # [11:27] <hsivonen> heycam: two years ago when the spec was smaller, it worked fine in Opera 7 on Nokia 770 with 64 MB of RAM.
  189. # [11:27] * hsivonen doesn't understand the perf complaints about the spec. It loads faster than many MXR pages.
  190. # [11:27] <zcorpan> hsivonen: true. is s/zero or one/no more than one/ clearer?
  191. # [11:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yeah
  192. # [11:31] <zcorpan> hsivonen: fixed
  193. # [11:32] <Philip`> The spec still works very badly for me in Opera (freezing for tens of seconds after loading); Firefox is much better
  194. # [11:34] <hsivonen> yeah. the situation with current spec and current opera isn't quite smooth
  195. # [11:41] <Philip`> Some Opera developer should look into it and work out how to fix the spec / Opera so that they cooperate nicely and smoothly, because it's bad PR if their browser can't render specifications :-)
  196. # [11:42] * wilhelm looks.
  197. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> I heard that Opera is preconfigured now to do secret user-data collection about any user who accesses the HTML5 spec
  198. # [11:47] <Philip`> I don't mind it collecting user data
  199. # [11:47] <Philip`> (The only problem is if it starts sending that collection to someone)
  200. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> I was kidding of course
  201. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> the truth is that Firefox is configured to optimize the user experience for any user accessing the HTML5 spec
  202. # [11:48] <Philip`> Anyway they could just look at their web server access logs for the Opera icon that's used in the stability annotations
  203. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> I was kidding about Firefox too
  204. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> the truth is that the HTML5 spec is going secret user-agent sniffing and varying its user experience depending on UA
  205. # [11:53] <Philip`> Maybe Opera has some high-tech AI algorithm that detects you're reading the latest version of the spec, parses it for changes since the browser was initially programmed, and then automatically patches the browser so it's consistently up-to-date
  206. # [11:53] <Philip`> and that's what makes it freeze for a bit while loading the spec
  207. # [11:53] <krijnh> MikeSmith: you're full of kidding today :)
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  211. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I'm full of good will for humanity
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  227. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> can any opera folk tell me if Arve is around somewheres today?
  228. # [13:15] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: He's not in his office.
  229. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> wilhelm: ok, thanks
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  239. # [13:33] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cvideo%20src%3Dimage%3E
  240. # [13:33] <zcorpan> safari shows the image
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  242. # [13:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://livedom.validator.nu/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3E%3Csvg%3E%3Cforeignobject%3E%3C%2Fp%3E is weird
  243. # [13:42] <zcorpan> in fact just <svg><foreignobject></p> is weird
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  252. # [14:25] <hsivonen> zcorpan: isn't that per spec, though?
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  286. # [17:08] <mookid> Is there any chance of having content-type negotiation in hyperlinks in html5?
  287. # [17:09] <mookid> i.e. a way of indicating what the Accept header should be for a link..
  288. # [17:09] <mookid> that might encourage browsers to be better HTTP clients :)
  289. # [17:10] <mookid> being able to indicate PUT and DELETE methods in html would be great too..
  290. # [17:11] <mookid> I guess you've already discussed this - what is your approach to this right now?
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  292. # [17:21] <Philip`> Why not link to a URL that is specific to the desired content-type, instead of trying to modify Accept?
  293. # [17:22] <Philip`> (e.g. link to foo.txt or foo.html, instead of to foo with Accept:text/html)
  294. # [17:23] <Philip`> HTML5 allows <form method="PUT"> and <form method="DELETE">
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  309. # [17:59] <mookid> Philip`: why? becuase that's how HTTP was designed :)
  310. # [18:00] <mookid> URL = resource locator, a resource has nothing to do with content-type
  311. # [18:01] <mookid> one resource can have multiple content-types, which one is returned should be evaluated according to the Accept header..
  312. # [18:02] <mookid> by specifying .html or .txt you are adding content-type to a URL, which was never the intention for HTTP
  313. # [18:02] <Dashiva> Yet it works
  314. # [18:03] <mookid> HTTP has been misused because of the failures of HTML and brwosers to conform to HTTP
  315. # [18:03] <mookid> HTML less so
  316. # [18:03] <mookid> but browsers use HTML as an excuse for not being proper HTTP clients
  317. # [18:04] <Dashiva> What would the benefit be?
  318. # [18:04] <mookid> benefit of conforming to HTTP? Oh I don't know.. consistency?
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  320. # [18:04] <takkaria> sadly, whilst HTTP might be geared up for content negotiation and this entire "one resource, multiple representation" thing, the rest of the world just isn't
  321. # [18:04] <mookid> because HTML is crap
  322. # [18:05] <mookid> as are the browsers
  323. # [18:05] <mookid> you can change this with HTML5
  324. # [18:05] <Dashiva> Heh
  325. # [18:05] <takkaria> I meant more the operating systems, and the servers
  326. # [18:05] <mookid> rubbish lol
  327. # [18:05] <mookid> that's nonsense
  328. # [18:05] <mookid> no offence
  329. # [18:05] <Dashiva> They're violating HTTP left and right
  330. # [18:05] <takkaria> and the way most people use file extensions, and think of URLs as mapping to a directory tree on a server
  331. # [18:05] <Philip`> I like it when people tell me how to access all their data via URLs, rather than requiring me to wildly guess content-types until it happens to send me the right one :-)
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  333. # [18:06] <mookid> so you're giong to leave out trivial.. potentially game changing improvements to HTML5 on teh basis that no one has been doing it properly?
  334. # [18:06] <mookid> superb.
  335. # [18:06] <Dashiva> Like what?
  336. # [18:06] <mookid> like an Accept tag in hyperlinks
  337. # [18:06] <Dashiva> What are these game changing improvements?
  338. # [18:06] <Philip`> Why is it game-changing? It's trivial for your server to map a single resource with multiple content-types onto multiple distinct URLs
  339. # [18:07] <takkaria> well, I'd sugget you're better trying to convince authors to see the world your way before you try and add features to a language which currently no-one wants to use
  340. # [18:07] <mookid> it's completely fundamental to enabling browsers to be good HTTP clients
  341. # [18:07] <mookid> what are you talking about HTTP is already established?
  342. # [18:07] <mookid> it's you guys and the brwoser guys not playing the game
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  344. # [18:07] <Dashiva> http://www.example.com/resource with Accept:X can be mapped to http://www.example.com/resource?accept=X so I'm not seeing the big loss
  345. # [18:08] <mookid> there's a HUGE loss
  346. # [18:08] <mookid> If I tell you there's a resource
  347. # [18:08] <mookid> at say
  348. # [18:08] <mookid> example.com/something
  349. # [18:08] <Dashiva> There's a huge win: You don't have to specify anything for the huge majority of cases with only one type
  350. # [18:08] <mookid> you can put that into a browser.. you get HTML
  351. # [18:08] <mookid> you put that into iTunes you get the mp3
  352. # [18:08] <mookid> you put it into a feed reader you get the RSS
  353. # [18:08] <mookid> that's amazing..
  354. # [18:08] <mookid> if you do it your way the URL only serves one content-type
  355. # [18:09] <mookid> that's poop
  356. # [18:09] <Dashiva> Meanwhile the rest of the world has hyperlinks
  357. # [18:09] <mookid> what?
  358. # [18:09] <Philip`> How would I know that I should put that URL into iTunes or a feed reader?
  359. # [18:09] <mookid> you could do all or any
  360. # [18:09] <mookid> that's the point.
  361. # [18:09] <mookid> it's jsut a RESOURCE
  362. # [18:09] <mookid> URL..
  363. # [18:09] <mookid> a resource can have many representations
  364. # [18:09] <mookid> depending on what UA you use to access it
  365. # [18:09] <Dashiva> That wasn't one resource, that was two resources
  366. # [18:10] <Philip`> If I tried putting random URLs into iTunes in the hope that they were music, I'd be continually disappointed and would give up; so I'd only try it once you explicitly told me that this URL could be accessed as an MP3, in which case you might as well tell me an MP3-specific URL
  367. # [18:10] <mookid> a resource is not a specific thing it's an abstract concept
  368. # [18:10] <takkaria> argh, I hate discussions about ontologies and the Web, it never ends well
  369. # [18:10] <mookid> but this is nonsense
  370. # [18:10] <mookid> why are you rejecting this?
  371. # [18:10] <mookid> you could include an accept tag in a hyperlink
  372. # [18:10] <Dashiva> Because we can already do everything you have suggested
  373. # [18:11] <takkaria> and do it easier
  374. # [18:11] <mookid> oh that's just onsense
  375. # [18:11] <mookid> no you dont
  376. # [18:11] <Dashiva> Why bolt on extra complexity for no gain other than some abstract concept's purity?
  377. # [18:11] <mookid> it's not EXTRA complexity
  378. # [18:11] <mookid> EXTRA complexty is using a URL for somethign it wans't designed for
  379. # [18:11] <Dashiva> No, that's existing functionality
  380. # [18:11] <mookid> why don't you ask Roy Fielding he knows a thing or 2 abuot HTTP..
  381. # [18:11] <Philip`> The default stance towards features has to be rejection, because otherwise HTML would be more horrendously bloated than it is, and so convincing arguments are required before a feature will be accepted
  382. # [18:11] <mookid> no it's NOT
  383. # [18:12] <mookid> that's not functionality at all that's a dirty hack that's becoma standard
  384. # [18:12] <Dashiva> Also known as functionality
  385. # [18:12] <takkaria> that's what most functionality in the world is, oddly enough :)
  386. # [18:12] <Philip`> That's what HTML is :-)
  387. # [18:12] <mookid> when you type in example.com/flibblwe.html - there is no gurantee whatsoever that html is returned..
  388. # [18:12] <takkaria> I think most states are built on dirty hacks, too
  389. # [18:12] <mookid> when you type in example.com/flibblwe.html - there is no gurantee whatsoever that html is returned..
  390. # [18:12] <Dashiva> There's no guarantee the world will exist tomorrow either
  391. # [18:12] <takkaria> but it's a reasonable guess
  392. # [18:12] <mookid> oh good argument.
  393. # [18:12] <takkaria> but if you type in example.com/flibblew then you really have no idea what it could be
  394. # [18:13] <mookid> yeah so is putting example.com/bla into ituens..
  395. # [18:13] <mookid> yes exatly
  396. # [18:13] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  397. # [18:13] <mookid> so you put it into whatever UA you have..
  398. # [18:13] <Dashiva> Why would I put bla into a music player? There's nothing telling me it's a song
  399. # [18:13] <mookid> and it tries to get the appropriate content type for you
  400. # [18:13] <mookid> in the case of a browser this is quite important because you're supposed to be able to GET lots of different content types
  401. # [18:13] <Dashiva> Now you're mixing two completely separate issues
  402. # [18:14] <mookid> no I'm not
  403. # [18:14] <Dashiva> User agents use accept all the time to get the right content
  404. # [18:14] <Dashiva> But putting accept into HTML elements is a different beast altogether
  405. # [18:14] <Dashiva> Besides, such accept info wouldn't travel with the URL when you enter it into iTunes
  406. # [18:15] <mookid> so you can't download a pdf.. or rss.. or xhtml.. or json with a brwoser?
  407. # [18:15] <Dashiva> (Oh look, invisible metadata)
  408. # [18:15] <mookid> header?
  409. # [18:15] <mookid> Accept is a header
  410. # [18:15] <mookid> it's a standard component of an HTTP transaction
  411. # [18:15] <Dashiva> As an attribute on a link, it is metadata
  412. # [18:15] <mookid> to tell the browser how to compose the request..
  413. # [18:16] <mookid> it's fundamental
  414. # [18:16] <takkaria> there are advantages to having the pdf and html versions at different urls
  415. # [18:16] <takkaria> because humans use urls
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  417. # [18:16] <Dashiva> And humans usually use two different files
  418. # [18:16] <takkaria> and if you want to pass soeone the url to the PDF version, you paste "http://blah/file.pdf" at them
  419. # [18:16] <takkaria> without .pdf you'd be hard pushed to do that
  420. # [18:17] <mookid> I'm not saying that you souldn't be able to specify - I'm implementing an API that negotiates with either the Accept header, or if it's specified a ?type=application/pdf
  421. # [18:17] <Dashiva> So what's the problem then?
  422. # [18:17] <mookid> but browsers wont be able to be good HTTP clients until you provide markup that allows them to do this properly
  423. # [18:18] <Dashiva> Use type=whatnot in HTML, you support it
  424. # [18:18] <mookid> that doesn't change the accept header
  425. # [18:18] <takkaria> HTTP is broken in that regard, then, since the accept header is invisible to users when really it should be visible to then
  426. # [18:18] <takkaria> so HTML is just working around a broken transport layer
  427. # [18:18] <mookid> HTTP ISNT BROKEN
  428. # [18:18] <mookid> HTTP and browsers are broken
  429. # [18:18] <mookid> HTML^
  430. # [18:18] <takkaria> it's certainly no platonic form
  431. # [18:19] <Philip`> (HTTP servers are broken too)
  432. # [18:19] <Dashiva> Don't take it personally, it's just a protocol :)
  433. # [18:19] <mookid> HTTP servers arent broken?
  434. # [18:19] <mookid> it's an important protocol
  435. # [18:19] <Philip`> (I particularly like the one that returns four random bytes for Content-Type when you send a HEAD request)
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  437. # [18:19] <Dashiva> Philip`: How about the one that returns text/plain on unknown content-types :)
  438. # [18:19] <mookid> and it's completely miss-represented and miss-understood because people get all political and dont want to admit that stuff like HTML and browsers are crap at speaking HTTP
  439. # [18:20] <mookid> so you've got an opporunity to bridge the gap..
  440. # [18:20] <mookid> and instead of taking stuff like this onboard
  441. # [18:20] <mookid> you get defensive
  442. # [18:20] <Philip`> Dashiva: That's just boring brokenness, not fun brokenness
  443. # [18:20] <mookid> and nothign gets fixed
  444. # [18:20] <Dashiva> Who is defensive again?
  445. # [18:20] <mookid> but you get to feel good about yourself because there's a new version of HTML
  446. # [18:20] <mookid> I'm trying to make the web work better
  447. # [18:20] <Dashiva> No you're not
  448. # [18:20] <mookid> you're trying to be on a document for HTTP5
  449. # [18:21] <Dashiva> You're trying to make HTTP look better
  450. # [18:21] <mookid> what?
  451. # [18:21] <mookid> I have no affiliation with HTTP whatsoever
  452. # [18:21] <Dashiva> You haven't mentioned a single thing that would benefit the web
  453. # [18:21] <mookid> of HTTP?
  454. # [18:21] <mookid> are you insnae?
  455. # [18:21] <mookid> isnane^
  456. # [18:21] <Dashiva> Just pragmatic
  457. # [18:21] <mookid> no you're misguided
  458. # [18:22] <mookid> are there project leads here because this is pretty important and from what I can gather not one of you appreciates any of these points
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  460. # [18:22] <mookid> I'm in the real world developing real world solutions and HTTP works perfectly.. brwosers and HTML are attrocious
  461. # [18:23] <Dashiva> You could send an email to the mailing list
  462. # [18:23] <Dashiva> Hixie will be sure to read it
  463. # [18:23] <Philip`> I think most people here would agree that browsers and HTML have significant problems; the disagreement is usually about how to best move forwards from where we are
  464. # [18:24] <mookid> well I would say that looking into HTTP - respecting it and according to it
  465. # [18:24] <mookid> would be a good start
  466. # [18:24] <mookid> and "oh well HTTP can still work and we dont need to provide a mechanism for setting an Accept header" is frankly not good enough
  467. # [18:24] <mookid> considering how important HTML is
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  469. # [18:25] <mookid> I really hope your approach is not reflective of this project
  470. # [18:26] <mookid> Hixie: what are your thoughts on this?
  471. # [18:27] <Dashiva> He's probably still asleep
  472. # [18:28] <mookid> Do you not think an optional tags for appropriate HTTP requests is even a possibility?
  473. # [18:28] <mookid> -an
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  475. # [18:28] <Dashiva> I predict Hixie will say something along the lines of "What are the use cases?"
  476. # [18:29] <mookid> great..l so he can nerd me into position
  477. # [18:29] <Philip`> The HTML5 approach is (in theory) to start by considering use cases, like "person X wants to send a link to a music file to a friend who can listen to it" or whatever, and then considering various solutions (e.g. send a multi-type URL and make UAs use Accept correctly, or send a URL specific to the MP3, or whatever) and choosing the 'best' (usually simplest, given the cost of adding features to browsers) that satisfies the use cases
  478. # [18:29] <mookid> but what if the benefits are mostly external to HTML itself
  479. # [18:29] <mookid> then it's not considered
  480. # [18:30] <mookid> my argument is that it's better for HTTP and ultimately better for the web
  481. # [18:30] <mookid> how do I make that a use case for HTML itself?
  482. # [18:30] <mookid> your argument will alwasy be 'well you can put the content type in the URL'
  483. # [18:30] <mookid> if you look at the definition of URL though.. it's pretty clear that shouldn't be the approach
  484. # [18:31] <mookid> the fact that you can doesnt make it right
  485. # [18:31] <mookid> e.g. I can spam aload of ranting jibberish at you - that doesnt mean I'm right
  486. # [18:31] <Philip`> Whenever a feature is added to the spec, the browser developers will have to be convinced that it's worth implementing, and they're unlikely to do that if the only justification is some abstract "it's better for the web" and it doesn't directly make their users happier
  487. # [18:31] <Dashiva> Say, mookid
  488. # [18:31] <Dashiva> Did you read the discussion about HTML URLs?
  489. # [18:31] <mookid> it's not HTML urls
  490. # [18:31] <mookid> it's just URLs
  491. # [18:31] <Dashiva> Oh boy
  492. # [18:31] <mookid> what? it's not..
  493. # [18:32] <Dashiva> Philip`: Can I point him there in good conscience?
  494. # [18:32] <mookid> is that not allowed because it makes you feel less important?
  495. # [18:32] <takkaria> HTML has its own concept of how to map and URI expressed in HTML to a real URI
  496. # [18:33] <Philip`> Dashiva: You mean the discussion about whether HTML5 should call its URL-ish syntax "URLs" instead of something ugly like "HURLs"?
  497. # [18:33] <mookid> why?
  498. # [18:33] * Philip` isn't quite sure why that's at all relevant
  499. # [18:33] <mookid> why not just follow what the HTTP protocol tells you
  500. # [18:33] <mookid> it's pretty specific
  501. # [18:33] <mookid> R = Resource
  502. # [18:33] <Dashiva> Philip`: It's another violation of the HTTP/URL purity :)
  503. # [18:33] <mookid> R != Resource + content-type
  504. # [18:34] <mookid> even if that is the way things are done now
  505. # [18:34] <mookid> and I'm not even saying 'stop people from doing it'
  506. # [18:34] <mookid> I'm just saying give them the ability to do it right
  507. # [18:34] <mookid> and let them choose
  508. # [18:34] <Philip`> Dashiva: Not really - it's just a syntactic issue about how you translate a stream of bytes in an HTML document into a requestable URI
  509. # [18:34] <mookid> a few optional tags isn't exactly rocket science
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  511. # [18:35] <mookid> I guess I'm not the first person to bring this up right?
  512. # [18:36] <takkaria> AFAICR, you are
  513. # [18:36] <jmb> mookid: why does html have to add an attribute to link elements? user agents know what content types they support, so they send an accept header. it's then up to the server to serve something up that's appropriate. the exact same thing happens right now with language negotiation
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  515. # [18:36] <mookid> jmb that's not true for browsers actually
  516. # [18:36] <mookid> brwosers handle lots of different content types
  517. # [18:36] <mookid> not just HTML
  518. # [18:36] <mookid> *chock horror* !
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  520. # [18:36] <mookid> shockl^
  521. # [18:36] <mookid> chock^
  522. # [18:36] <mookid> shock^
  523. # [18:36] <takkaria> that's exactly what he said...
  524. # [18:36] <jmb> mookid: yes, and they send an appropriate Accept header
  525. # [18:36] <mookid> no they don't
  526. # [18:37] <Philip`> My browser says it accepts */*
  527. # [18:37] <mookid> they send a generic header
  528. # [18:37] <mookid> that's what I'm saying
  529. # [18:37] <mookid> that's not how HTTP was intended
  530. # [18:37] <mookid> that's how it's been implemented
  531. # [18:37] <Philip`> (Specifically: "text/html, application/xml;q=0.9, application/xhtml+xml, image/png, image/jpeg, image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, */*;q=0.1")
  532. # [18:37] <mookid> because HTML and browsers are crap
  533. # [18:37] <mookid> ..
  534. # [18:37] <mookid> that's exaclty my point.
  535. # [18:37] <mookid> !
  536. # [18:37] <jmb> what has html to do with this?
  537. # [18:37] <mookid> oh deasr lord.
  538. # [18:38] <mookid> <a> = GET request to a URL - it shoudl indicate exactly how to construct that request
  539. # [18:38] <mookid> but at the moment it doesnt
  540. # [18:38] <jmb> no
  541. # [18:38] <mookid> and apparently the new version wont either
  542. # [18:38] <mookid> which is sad
  543. # [18:38] <mookid> because you have an oppotunity
  544. # [18:38] <jmb> the page author has utterly no way of knowing what the user agent supports
  545. # [18:38] <mookid> and a protocol to guide you
  546. # [18:39] <mookid> the Accept HEADER
  547. # [18:39] <mookid> that's the point
  548. # [18:39] <jmb> therefore, they have no reason whatsoever to be given a way to change the user agent's accept header
  549. # [18:39] <mookid> yes there is
  550. # [18:39] <mookid> if I request from my browser example.com/report
  551. # [18:39] <mookid> and I want that page to link to the pdfversion
  552. # [18:39] <mookid> and not the html
  553. # [18:40] <mookid> how am I supopsed to tell the brwoser to ask for pdf ?
  554. # [18:40] <mookid> your sugegstion is to us ethe URL
  555. # [18:40] <mookid> URL's arent for that
  556. # [18:40] <mookid> YES you can do it
  557. # [18:40] <jmb> if the browser can't handle PDF, then why should it ask for it?
  558. # [18:40] <Philip`> mookid: Just to be clear: Are you suggesting that browsers should support something like <a href="..." accept="audio/mp3, audio/wav;q=0.9">? and do you just want Accept, or all the other HTTP request headers that you currently can't access?
  559. # [18:40] <mookid> yes exactly
  560. # [18:40] <mookid> exactly Philip`
  561. # [18:40] <mookid> so generic if not specified
  562. # [18:41] <mookid> for that browser/OS
  563. # [18:41] <Philip`> mookid: Just for Accept, not anything else?
  564. # [18:41] <mookid> if specified it tells brwoser to specify header
  565. # [18:41] <mookid> well Accept is the only one I can think of that has practical use to the user
  566. # [18:41] <mookid> there may be others
  567. # [18:42] <mookid> are you talking to the HTTP community abuot this?
  568. # [18:42] <mookid> it's quite important actually
  569. # [18:42] <mookid> Philip`: are you seeign where I am coming from?
  570. # [18:42] <mookid> or not?
  571. # [18:42] <Philip`> mookid: Should it only apply to <a href>, and not to <img src> or <script src> or <link href> etc?
  572. # [18:43] <mookid> right.. any hyperlink
  573. # [18:43] <mookid> that's not a hyperlink is it
  574. # [18:43] <mookid> I dont know the word
  575. # [18:43] <mookid> anythign containg an URL refrence
  576. # [18:44] <mookid> <a> would be the most comomon though obviously
  577. # [18:44] <mookid> and if developers didn't use it - it would make no difference to them anyway
  578. # [18:45] <mookid> + it's not a binding contact for the server, the protocol doesn't require the server to actually respect the Accept header - in the same way that I can make my server respond to index.html with a jpeg
  579. # [18:47] <takkaria> the main point here, is that it provides no tangible benefit to allow people to do that over other methods that are already widely used, and so it would be a very low priority in specification development
  580. # [18:47] <mookid> *shakes head*
  581. # [18:47] <mookid> lordy lordy lordy
  582. # [18:48] <mookid> it provides massive benefits
  583. # [18:48] <Philip`> mookid: I do see what you're proposing, but I don't currently see that the cost of implementing it would be worth the value (particularly since it seems it only has any value once it's implemented in nearly every deployed web browser, because otherwise people won't be able to safely use it)
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  585. # [18:48] <mookid> do you know who Roy Fielding is?
  586. # [18:48] <takkaria> yes
  587. # [18:48] <takkaria> do you know who Tony Blair is?
  588. # [18:48] <mookid> he agrees with me.
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  591. # [18:49] <mookid> Roy Fielding is pretty authorative guy when it comes to the web
  592. # [18:49] <takkaria> appeals to authority never work in the WHAT WG, I'm afraid
  593. # [18:49] <Dashiva> Argument from authority?
  594. # [18:49] <mookid> er
  595. # [18:49] <mookid> I'm sorry but
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  597. # [18:49] <mookid> how can you make sweeping statements like "this isnt high enough priority"
  598. # [18:49] <mookid> you must assume some kind of authority within the realm of HTML to make that assertion
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  600. # [18:50] <mookid> oops? did you just make an internet boo boo ?
  601. # [18:50] <Dashiva> The design principles?
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  603. # [18:50] <mookid> There is just so much potential with a new version of HTML
  604. # [18:50] <mookid> yuor gonna ruin it if you ignore this
  605. # [18:51] <mookid> why don't you start a dialogue with the HTTP guys and see what the feedback is?
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  608. # [18:51] <Philip`> The HTTP guys' feedback has mostly been objecting to aspects of HTML5 that can't be changed because of compatibility requirements on the web, if I remember correctly
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  610. # [18:52] <mookid> well this isn't a compatablity requirements
  611. # [18:52] <mookid> issue
  612. # [18:52] <mookid> wahtever coming back later this is insane
  613. # [18:52] <mookid> :D
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  615. # [18:53] <Dashiva> Philip`: Also refusing to change things that clash with the web
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  619. # [19:00] <Philip`> (From #html-wg: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/ )
  620. # [19:01] <Dashiva> obsolete...
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  622. # [19:03] <aboodman> Hixie: not sure if you got last message... I would lean toward doing what the web already does, but that is not based on any sort of analysis
  623. # [19:12] <Philip`> Dashiva: Oh, didn't see it on the list
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  626. # [19:15] <Hixie> aboodman: k
  627. # [19:16] <Hixie> aboodman: (i remember that we added the cross-site limitations for a reason, i just don't remember if the reason was "to do the right thing" or "because it prevents attack X")
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  643. # [20:40] <Lachy> my presentation at pubcon is over
  644. # [20:41] <MikeSmith> ぁ
  645. # [20:41] <MikeSmith> Lachy: お疲れさま
  646. # [20:42] <Lachy> surprisingly I stuttered a lot more than usual this time
  647. # [20:42] <Lachy> MikeSmith, wtf?
  648. # [20:42] <MikeSmith> Lachy: how did it go? how many people in the audience?
  649. # [20:42] <MikeSmith> otsukare-sama
  650. # [20:42] <Lachy> I'd guess around 50 to 60
  651. # [20:42] <Lachy> though I'm not sure. Could have been more
  652. # [20:42] <MikeSmith> this was an HTML5 presentation?
  653. # [20:43] <Lachy> it was a panel on HTML and CSS. 3 of us gave 15 min presentations each
  654. # [20:44] <Lachy> I should have spoken more about forms instead of things like <section>, since forms would have been more relevant to this business and marketing oriented crowd
  655. # [20:44] <Lachy> but I didn't have any decent slides about forms to reuse
  656. # [20:44] <Lachy> I will have to make them
  657. # [20:45] <Lachy> anyway, I went and saw Steve Wyrick, a magician, last night.
  658. # [20:46] <Lachy> he was good. I really have no idea how he managed to get from the stage to a seat in the middle of the audience
  659. # [20:47] <Lachy> but the person he was sitting next to got a huge surprise :-)
  660. # [20:49] <Philip`> Maybe it was his identical twin
  661. # [20:49] <Philip`> or an illegal cloning experiment
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  664. # [20:52] <Lachy> I also found a cool magic shop, and learned how to make a levitating playing card
  665. # [20:55] <MikeSmith> Lachy: Pubcon is the same organizers as Webmaster World?
  666. # [20:55] <Lachy> yes
  667. # [20:56] <MikeSmith> anybody else from Opera was speaking there? or around for the event?
  668. # [20:57] <Lachy> Gier from the web apps dept is here somewhere, but not presenting
  669. # [21:00] <MikeSmith> Lachy: please tell him I said hi. I've not seem him since Xtech a couple years ago
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  687. # [21:59] <jgraham> Being able to set HTTP headers used in hyperlinks from HTML seems to have a very poor backward compaibility story
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  689. # [22:07] <Dashiva> jgraham: No, no. HTTP has supported headers for many years ;)
  690. # [22:13] <jgraham> :-p
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  693. # [22:22] <gsnedders> It opens up all kinds of attack vectors
  694. # [22:26] <jcranmer> is scheme:path?query;param#anchor the correct format, or is it scheme:path;param?query#anchor ?
  695. # [22:27] <Dashiva> I believe it's the latter
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  699. # [22:45] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I think Macrovision on VHS isn't *DRM*, because it lacks the D
  700. # [22:45] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Pedant :)
  701. # [22:46] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it seems to me that the argument is:
  702. # [22:47] <hsivonen> 1) Font foundries want to make infringing people aware that they are infringing
  703. # [22:48] <hsivonen> 2) People grab a font using view source / Web Inspector / Firebug don't realize they are infringing
  704. # [22:49] <hsivonen> so the argument doesn't hinge on any technical prevention
  705. # [22:49] <hsivonen> but on what hoops make people aware that they are infringing when they infringe
  706. # [22:49] <gsnedders> Then any obstruction or DRM is overkill
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  708. # [22:50] <hsivonen> s/grab/who grab/
  709. # [22:51] <gsnedders> Would it not be simpler for browsers to include a small note in all save boxes, along the lines of, "This file may be subject to copyright/licence restrictions."
  710. # [22:52] <jgraham> I don't see why that is needed
  711. # [22:53] <jgraham> or how it would help, really
  712. # [22:53] <gsnedders> Nor do I really, but it seems to address the needs of the foundries
  713. # [22:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: the whole discussion is basically about what rituals would make one group of believe that another group of people is lead to think in a certain way
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  717. # [22:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, but putting randon pseudo-legalese in browsers is really not nice
  718. # [22:57] <jgraham> I still don't understand why fonts deserve more protection than photographs
  719. # [22:57] <hsivonen> jgraham: I agree. Particularly when the pseudo-legalese is a truism that should be assumed to be known by default.
  720. # [22:57] <Hixie> "<gsnedders> Nor do I really, but it seems to address the needs of the foundries" assumes that we need to address those needs
  721. # [22:57] <Hixie> which i'm pretty sure we don't
  722. # [22:58] <gsnedders> Hixie: Just ignore the font foundries?
  723. # [22:58] <gsnedders> Hixie: Surely that's no different to ignoring implementers?
  724. # [22:58] <jgraham> gsnedders: That seems like an option.
  725. # [22:58] <gsnedders> (in terms of getting stuff used)
  726. # [23:00] <Hixie> implementors can veto stuff because if they don't implement, the spec is fiction
  727. # [23:00] <Hixie> font foundries have no veto ability here, and their needs directly conflict with the users'
  728. # [23:00] <Hixie> users win
  729. # [23:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: what happened with Google's EOT patch for WebKit?
  730. # [23:01] <Hixie> we decided we couldn't justify introducing DRM given our "do no evil" principles
  731. # [23:01] <gsnedders> Hixie: No, users don't win. They can't use the majority of fonts.
  732. # [23:01] <Hixie> sure they can
  733. # [23:02] <gsnedders> (and if you just send OTF/TTF anyway, who's betting the foundries will just change their licences to disallow that)
  734. # [23:02] <Hixie> of the fonts available to a random author, the vast majority are free
  735. # [23:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: it seems to me that the "need" of foundries is to believe that users know what they are infringing. I'm not convinced that in would be against the users' needs to know what behaviors are infringing. However, I'd prefer a way to establish the belief and awareness without using technology as a intermediate.
  736. # [23:03] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@wsip-24-234-142-17.lv.lv.cox.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  737. # [23:03] <Hixie> users are fully aware that copying a font from another site is a violation of copyright
  738. # [23:03] <Hixie> so that need is already met
  739. # [23:03] <jgraham> hsivonen: That is hardly a unique need. Why do fonts get special consideration over all other media
  740. # [23:05] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.203.15.222)
  741. # [23:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah, according to a recent study conducted in Finland, 95% of school kids believe that distributing movies and music without authorization is illegal.
  742. # [23:07] <Hixie> people know it's illegal, they just don't care
  743. # [23:07] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@wsip-24-234-142-17.lv.lv.cox.net)
  744. # [23:12] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  745. # [23:12] <Dashiva> hsivonen: You say "believe", makes it sound like it isn't :)
  746. # [23:14] <hsivonen> Dashiva: well, I'm pretty sure it's illegal here, but these studies also include BS about using the word that approximates "felony" for things that are illegal but not punishable
  747. # [23:14] <hsivonen> (compare with riding a bike without a helmet)
  748. # [23:15] <Dashiva> The jail/no jail distinction?
  749. # [23:16] <hsivonen> Dashiva: for example, I'm pretty sure that downloading movies / music without authorization is in the illegal but not punishable category here.
  750. # [23:16] <hsivonen> Dashiva: but the people who get prosecuted also shared the content
  751. # [23:16] <Philip`> If it's not punishable, what would stop anyone from doing it?
  752. # [23:16] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  753. # [23:17] <hsivonen> Philip`: knowing that it illegal. And for all things not copyright-related, Finns will generally obey the law on the law's sayso
  754. # [23:18] <hsivonen> Also, over here the police can do pretty much what it pleases and can use equipment confiscation as a de facto punishment on a presumed guilty-basis.
  755. # [23:21] <Philip`> Given how many people infringe copyright even when they know it's illegal, I can't imagine many are put off by it being considered legally naughty but not punishable
  756. # [23:21] <hsivonen> I would guess that for people who are very familiar with the law and practice, the risk of equipment confiscation without judicial oversight is a stronger deterrent than the law
  757. # [23:24] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  758. # [23:27] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  759. # [23:27] <hsivonen> (oh. there's another thing that's illegal but not punishable and that people do: lying about campaign finance to the ministry of justice)
  760. # [23:28] <hsivonen> (the politicians had the good sense to make their own illegalities non-punishable)
  761. # [23:30] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  762. # [23:30] <Dashiva> I don't get that
  763. # [23:30] <Dashiva> I learned in class that illegal was defined as there being a law against it
  764. # [23:32] <hsivonen> Dashiva: right. But the law doesn't have to set punishments for all things that are illegal.
  765. # [23:33] <hsivonen> Dashiva: and over here if an illegal thing doesn't have an entry in the Criminal Code, it's a different type of illegality than a "crime"
  766. # [23:35] <Dashiva> So what happens if the police find you committing one of those crimes? They take your computer to gather evidence, and then throw the evidence away?
  767. # [23:37] <Hixie> copyright violation is punishable
  768. # [23:37] <Hixie> it's just a civil offense rather than a criminal one
  769. # [23:37] <Hixie> which means financial damages and reparations, generally
  770. # [23:37] * Quits: Maurice` (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) (Broken pipe)
  771. # [23:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: Finland doesn't have punitive damages, so in theory, if it's a civil case, it's not a punisment but just damages
  772. # [23:38] <hsivonen> *punishment
  773. # [23:38] * Quits: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.12)
  774. # [23:38] <Hixie> and what's the nominal "damage" of violating copyright?
  775. # [23:39] * Joins: sicking (n=chatzill@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  776. # [23:40] <hsivonen> Dashiva: they can take the computers and all inessential related equipment away for investigation, be slow with the investigation, and turn over the evidence to support a trial brought by a RIAA/MPAA/IFPI-connected civil association
  777. # [23:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: the retail price of the same piece of content on CD/DVD
  778. # [23:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: assuming a theory that every copy is a lost sale, which is of course bogus
  779. # [23:41] <Hixie> wow, that's low
  780. # [23:41] <jcranmer> hsivonen: better than the RIAA's theory
  781. # [23:41] <Hixie> the us has insanely high numbers
  782. # [23:41] <Hixie> like, ever violation is 5 digits usd
  783. # [23:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: plus legal fees!
  784. # [23:41] <jcranmer> i.e., every copy represents thousands of lost sales
  785. # [23:41] <Hixie> every, even
  786. # [23:42] <hsivonen> so if you lose a case to the enforcement association, the court orders you to pay their legal fees
  787. # [23:42] <hsivonen> so for the downloader case, the main risk is equipment confiscation and legal fees
  788. # [23:43] <hsivonen> for the uploader case, there's also a potentially high supposed damage
  789. # [23:43] <hsivonen> none of these are "punishments" in the legal sense although de facto, they are
  790. # [23:46] <hsivonen> not having punitive damages is good. If something requires more punishment, a fine to the state leads to much more healthy behavior than awarding more than the actual damages to the supposedly injured party
  791. # [23:47] <hsivonen> (the reason why we don't have punitive damages is a principle that the injured party shouldn't end up better off than where they started by suffering a damage)
  792. # [23:49] <Hixie> you'll note i didn't mention punitive damages :-)
  793. # [23:49] <Hixie> i don't think the us has them for copyright violations either
  794. # [23:49] <Hixie> but what do i know
  795. # [23:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, the U.S. has crazy statutory damages
  796. # [23:49] <Dashiva> It's not like the actual law matters to the RIAA :P
  797. # [23:49] <hsivonen> I'm not sure if those are considered "punitive" legally in this case
  798. # [23:52] <jruderman> how about cruel and unusual?
  799. # [23:52] <hsivonen> anyway, damages in excess of the actual damages whether statutory or made up be a judge on the spot suck, and it's better to put the excess into the state treasure than to award it to another litigant, IMO
  800. # [23:53] <Hixie> statutory damages kinda makes sense in that for non-financial stuff there has to be some sort of going rate for pain
  801. # [23:53] <Hixie> i mean, it's not like you can easily measure the pain cause by slander in USD, for example
  802. # [23:54] * jruderman slanders Hixie's cat
  803. # [23:54] <Hixie> poor mowmow
  804. # [23:54] <Hixie> they were at the vet this morning
  805. # [23:54] * jcranmer has a cat who likes to sit and sleep
  806. # [23:54] <jcranmer> very good paperweight
  807. # [23:54] <hsivonen> jruderman: it seems to me that in RIAA cases damages are cruel but unfortunately not unusual
  808. # [23:56] <hsivonen> s/treasure/treasury/
  809. # [23:59] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.244.16.179)
  810. # Session Close: Fri Nov 14 00:00:00 2008

The end :)