/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-11-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Nov 15 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:04] <deltab> Philip`: semantics of markup vs. semantics of content?
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  15. # [00:53] * Hixie considers changing canPlayType() to returning "probably", "maybe", and "no"
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  17. # [01:01] <Philip`> That will be fun for everyone who doesn't read the documentation and then writes "if (canPlayType(...)) { ... }"
  18. # [01:01] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#media-types
  19. # [01:02] <Hixie> well, they'll hit that error pretty soon, right
  20. # [01:02] <Hixie> it's not like the -1, 0, 1 case where it would take each codepath in some cases
  21. # [01:02] <Hixie> and the return values are at least self-documenting here
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  24. # [01:10] <Hixie> is philipj ever on IRC?
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  30. # [01:24] <Hixie> afk
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  34. # [01:38] <Hixie> i don't understand yecril71's change to the faq
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  41. # [02:17] <Hixie> yt?
  42. # [02:17] <Hixie> er
  43. # [02:17] <Hixie> wc
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  45. # [02:23] <Hixie> heycam: looks like we need three mechanisms in webidl to make enumeration things work right
  46. # [02:24] <Hixie> a mechanism to list properties that are exposed (name, value)
  47. # [02:24] <Hixie> a mechanism to list properties that aren't exposed but that can be accessed anyway (name, value)
  48. # [02:24] <Hixie> and a mechanism for how to handle setting of those properties (when present or not)
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  50. # [02:25] <Hixie> and each mechanism needs a way to handle whether the IDL should override these mechanisms or be shadowed by them
  51. # [02:25] <Hixie> and we also need a way to mark the item, namedItem, etc methods as hooking into this
  52. # [02:27] <othermaciej> Hixie: I would say that WebIDL needs a way to mark up an interface as having dynamic properties; whether they show up to the "in" operator and hasOwnProperty; whether they are enumerable; and whether they take priority over IDL-defined properties or not
  53. # [02:28] <othermaciej> Hixie: I don't think it is necessary to represent at the IDL level that certain IDL interfaces do lookups against the same namespace as dynamic properties
  54. # [02:28] <othermaciej> Hixie: that can be expressed in spec prose just fine
  55. # [02:28] <othermaciej> (and sometimes there isn't even such a method)
  56. # [02:29] <othermaciej> it's kind of like the case of two properties having the same value or two methods doing the same thing; there's probably such cases, but there is no need for IDL to point them out
  57. # [02:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: I guess you also might want to express the traits I described separately for index and non-index properties
  58. # [02:29] <Hixie> i just don't want to have to say the same thing a bazillion times
  59. # [02:30] <Hixie> if i can just say "the item() method is a _foobarmagicmethod_." then that's fine too
  60. # [02:30] <Hixie> i don't care if it's in idl or prose so long as it is terse and non-redundant
  61. # [02:30] <Hixie> still means the webidl spec needs something for me :-)
  62. # [02:31] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think in prose you would define the name lookup algorithm once, and say that algorithm applies to dynamic properties, and is used by nameGetter
  63. # [02:32] <Hixie> right, i'm saying that the name lookup algorithm should be in webidl
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  65. # [02:32] <Hixie> so that different specs don't need to redefine it
  66. # [02:32] <othermaciej> sorry?
  67. # [02:32] <Hixie> webidl the spec
  68. # [02:32] <Hixie> not the language
  69. # [02:32] <othermaciej> the name lookup algorithm is the thing that's specific to each object
  70. # [02:32] <othermaciej> in the sens eI was using the term
  71. # [02:32] <Hixie> oh
  72. # [02:32] <Hixie> i see what you're saying
  73. # [02:32] <Hixie> hm, yeah, maybe there's not much to specify
  74. # [02:33] <othermaciej> (and really it should be an algorithm that gives a current list of dynamic property names and values)
  75. # [02:33] <Hixie> well either way, i'm sure we can figure something out
  76. # [02:33] <othermaciej> (though namedItem and the like would use it for lookup purposes rather than listing ever)
  77. # [02:33] <othermaciej> right
  78. # [02:33] <othermaciej> it will be good to have this straight
  79. # [02:33] <othermaciej> I would like it to be possible for WebKit to use spec WebIDL directly as our IDL files with as little modification as possible
  80. # [02:34] <Hixie> that'd be nice
  81. # [02:34] <othermaciej> so I tend to think of things from that design angle
  82. # [02:34] <othermaciej> I know that is not the primary goal
  83. # [02:34] <othermaciej> but it would help validate both WebIDL itself and any spec using it that WebKit supported
  84. # [02:34] <othermaciej> if that worked out
  85. # [02:36] <Hixie> yeah
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  96. # [03:16] <aboodman2> sicking: it seems like your example with relative urls would actually work.
  97. # [03:16] <aboodman2> maybe I am missing some subtle detail of how urls are resolved.
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  99. # [03:17] <sicking> aboodman: the url would be resolved against google.com though, no?
  100. # [03:17] <sicking> aboodman2, rather than against example.html
  101. # [03:17] <aboodman2> it seems like it would resolve to http://docs.google.com/documents/report.doc
  102. # [03:17] <sicking> right
  103. # [03:18] <aboodman2> which is the same thing it would resolve to relative to index.html, assuming index.html was also hosted somewhere on http://docs.google.com/
  104. # [03:18] <sicking> index.html is hosted on myserver.com
  105. # [03:18] <sicking> sorry, should have said that
  106. # [03:18] <aboodman2> cross-origin workers aren't allowed in html5
  107. # [03:18] <aboodman2> i thought
  108. # [03:18] <sicking> cross-origin loading of js files are
  109. # [03:18] <sicking> i hope, no reason not to
  110. # [03:19] <sicking> they will execute in the security context of the loading page though
  111. # [03:19] <sicking> same as for <script>
  112. # [03:19] <aboodman2> huh
  113. # [03:19] * aboodman2 consults the spec
  114. # [03:19] <sicking> i know the original spec didn't allow it, but i thought that was a bug
  115. # [03:20] <sicking> i don't see why we would disallow cross-site loading of the script file since <script> already allows it
  116. # [03:20] <aboodman2> "If the origin of the resulting absolute URL is not the same as the origin of the script that invoked the constructor, then throw a security exception."
  117. # [03:20] <sicking> bah
  118. # [03:20] <sicking> that sucks
  119. # [03:20] <aboodman2> workers aren't really the same thing as <script> tags
  120. # [03:20] <aboodman2> i think that is part of where our mental models differ
  121. # [03:21] <sicking> i agree :)
  122. # [03:21] <sicking> for dedicated workers they are very similar
  123. # [03:21] <aboodman2> workers are like pages
  124. # [03:21] <sicking> just out-of-process
  125. # [03:21] <aboodman2> importScripts() is like <script> tags
  126. # [03:21] <aboodman2> and you can't communicate with windows that you open that are in other origins
  127. # [03:22] <sicking> so i see dedicated workers as simply an out-of-process <script>
  128. # [03:22] <sicking> where you offload stuff you don't want to execute on the UI thread
  129. # [03:22] <aboodman2> yes, you see them like threads.
  130. # [03:22] <aboodman2> i am not sure how to resolve this difference in seeingness
  131. # [03:22] <sicking> i think it's a difference in use cases
  132. # [03:23] <sicking> bah, gotta take off for bus, i'll be back on in a few mins
  133. # [03:23] <aboodman2> ok
  134. # [03:23] <aboodman2> i will keep typing as i will probably have to go soon too
  135. # [03:24] <sicking> quicky first though: you had suggested that we support appCodeName way back when. Is that one really useful? everyone returns 'Mozilla'
  136. # [03:24] <sicking> heh
  137. # [03:24] <aboodman2> you mean on the navigator object that is exposed to workers? I just figured that we should support the same API that windows support. no reason to make things incompatible just for the heck of it.
  138. # [03:24] <aboodman2> there is already code that works with the navigator object.
  139. # [03:24] <sicking> windows support a loooong list
  140. # [03:25] <sicking> https://developer.mozilla.org/En/DOM/Window.navigator
  141. # [03:25] <aboodman2> right, I guess I assumed that exposing things to workers was not a lot of extra work.
  142. # [03:25] <sicking> i was hoping to not do the whole thing
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  144. # [03:25] <aboodman2> it is hard to know what people are using today.
  145. # [03:25] <aboodman2> if you take a look at the code that libraries use to figure out what browser is which, it is crazy.
  146. # [03:26] <aboodman2> since everybody lies about who they are, it kind of has to be.
  147. # [03:26] <sicking> ah, i was hoping you had some data on that when you originally posted 5 of them :)
  148. # [03:26] <sicking> ok, rally taking off
  149. # [03:26] <aboodman2> ok.
  150. # [03:27] <sicking> have a good weekend
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  159. # [04:12] <Hixie> the navigator.* stuff the spec now says to support only includes the ones that all the browsers support and return different things for
  160. # [04:12] <Hixie> so appCodeName isn't included
  161. # [04:12] <Hixie> (it is in fact commented out)
  162. # [04:12] <Hixie> regarding cross-origin, i don't mind allowing it if people want to allow it, in fact i'd like to know the use case for not allowing it
  163. # [04:15] <aboodman2> Hixie: in Gears, workers run in the origin they are loaded from
  164. # [04:15] <aboodman2> it's a feature.
  165. # [04:16] <aboodman2> it fills a similar role to postMessage() across iframes. But previously you said that you didn't want to bite that off immediately.
  166. # [04:17] <Hixie> ah hm yes, allowing cross-origin loads would make it confusing to know what origin to give the script execution context
  167. # [04:18] <aboodman2> maybe you could load workers across origins if you say that workers run in the caller's origin and have the caller's base URI.
  168. # [04:18] <aboodman2> but then shared workers don't work as well.
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  172. # [04:38] <Hixie> i guess we could allow importScripts() cross-origin then
  173. # [04:38] <Hixie> without allowing workers themselves
  174. # [04:44] <aboodman2> that seems reasonable
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  212. # [09:41] <yecril71> My edit to <http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=FAQ&oldid=3433#Should_I_top-post_or_reply_inline.3F> was intentional.
  213. # [09:42] <yecril71> I have explained it at <http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Talk:FAQ>.
  214. # [09:44] <yecril71> The URL "/documents/report.doc" is local absolute.
  215. # [09:44] <yecril71> It will not cause the worker to load the wrong document.
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  217. # [10:01] <Hish> hi, can anybody help me with a line height issue? <p style="font-size:36pt;">abc<span style="font-size:10pt;"> some long text </span></p> results in a paragraph with a line height of 36pt even in the lines which should only have 10pt. this happens in xhtml 5 as well as html 5. html 4 transitional works fine.
  218. # [10:04] <yecril71> I might be able to, although not on this channel.
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  221. # [10:06] <Hish> yecril71: what other channel?
  222. # [10:07] <yecril71> What do you mean by "in html 5"?
  223. # [10:08] <Hish> when I set the doctype to <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> it looks fine and when I set it to <!DOCTYPE HTML> I have this problem.
  224. # [10:09] <Hish> and I assumed that <!DOCTYPE HTML> is used for html 5. isn't it?
  225. # [10:09] <yecril71> Not that way. HTML 5 uses it, but the rendering engine cannot infer it is HTML 5 from it.
  226. # [10:10] <yecril71> HTML 5 does not have a way to name its version.
  227. # [10:10] <Hish> ok. then maybe I'm wrong here. thx
  228. # [10:27] <yecril71> "pixel float" is a state of pixels that float.
  229. # [10:27] <yecril71> So "pixelfloat" for video aspect ratio is rather comical.
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  252. # [11:53] <Philip`> Hish: What browser(s) do you see that behaviour in?
  253. # [11:54] <Philip`> Hish: Firefox 3 seems to do 36pt spacing with both <!DOCTYPE HTML> and <!...that html4/strict one...> (but does narrower spacing if it's in quirks mode if you don't give any doctype at all)
  254. # [11:54] <Hish> firefox, safari opera. in opera you can fix it when the outer tag is a span instead of a p
  255. # [11:55] <Hish> firefox only displays is correctly with html4 loos dtd
  256. # [11:56] <Hish> but I need xhtml to display inline svg
  257. # [11:56] <Hish> also I don't give a great future to html 4 loose
  258. # [11:56] <Philip`> Hish: Sounds like a quirks vs standards mode issue
  259. # [11:57] <Philip`> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Mozilla_Quirks_Mode_Behavior mentions line height behaviour, so it's probably that
  260. # [11:57] <Hish> yep. but in this case, the standard behaviour doesn't make sense. also opera shows me that it can be displayed properly
  261. # [11:57] <BenMillard> Hish, maybe you could upload some test cases so others can see what's happening themselves?
  262. # [11:58] <Hish> do you have a pastebin here?
  263. # [11:58] <Philip`> If it's short, you can use the permalink feature on http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/
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  265. # [11:59] <takkaria> I think either behaviour makes sense, really, there are pros and cons to either
  266. # [12:03] <Philip`> Can't you just do <!DOCTYPE html><p style="font-size:10pt"><span style="font-size:36pt">abc</span> some long text </p> ?
  267. # [12:04] <Philip`> (You probably don't want to use quirks mode (which is what you get with the HTML4 Transitional DTD, or with no doctype at all) because that makes browsers even more weird and buggy and uninteroperable)
  268. # [12:05] <Hish> http://pastebin.com/m5d342c7e
  269. # [12:07] <BenMillard> using <ol> for code samples is an anti-pattern...you can't copy and paste them :(
  270. # [12:07] <Hish> there's a download button
  271. # [12:08] <Philip`> There's a textarea you can copy from
  272. # [12:08] <BenMillard> Philip`, aha! it was below the fold
  273. # [12:08] <Lachy> WOW! I can't believe the stupidity in this video http://failblog.org/2008/09/08/conspiracy-fail/
  274. # [12:09] <Philip`> Also you could use Opera, which doesn't insert annoying "#" lines if you copy-and-paste from the <ol>
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  276. # [12:10] <BenMillard> Hish, does your test expect a specific browser width?
  277. # [12:11] <Hish> try 500px so that the small lines wrap over 2-3 lines
  278. # [12:13] <BenMillard> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20HTML%3E%0A%3Chtml%3E%0A%3Chead%3E%0A%3Cmeta%20http-equiv%3D%22Content-Type%22%20content%3D%22text%2Fhtml%3B%20charset%3Dutf-8%22%3E%0A%3Ctitle%3EUntitled%20Document%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0A%3Cstyle%20type%3D%22text%2Fcss%22%3E%0Abody%20%7Bfont-size%3A6px%3B%7D%0A.style1%20%7B%0A%09font-size%3A36px%3B%0A%7D%0A.style2%20%7B%0A%20%20%20%20font-size%3A10px%3B%20%0A%7D%0
  279. # [12:13] <BenMillard> %2Fhead%3E%0A%0A%3Cbody%3E%0A%3Cp%3E%3Cspan%20class%3D%22style2%22%3Ethis%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small
  280. # [12:13] <BenMillard> 20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20%3C%2Fspan%3E%3C%2Fp%3E%0A%3Chr%3E%0A%3Cp%3E%3Cspan%20class%3D%22style1%22%3Ebottomline%3A%20inline%20elements%20with%20a%20large%20font%20size%20must%20be%20closed%20before.%20Currently%20only%
  281. # [12:13] <BenMillard> s%20correctly.%20Now%20a%20small%20text%3C%2Fspan%3E%3Cspan%20class%3D%22style2%22%3Ethis%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20i
  282. # [12:13] <BenMillard> his%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20%3C%2Fspan%3E%3Cspan%20class%3D%22style1%22%3EOk.%20now%20back%20to%20large.%20%3C%2Fspan%3E%3C%2Fp%3E%0A%3Chr%3E%0A%3Cp%20class%3D%22style1%22%3E%3Cspan%20style%3D%22font-size%3
  283. # [12:13] <BenMillard> is%20a%20test.%3C%2Fspan%3E%3Cspan%20class%3D%22style2%22%3Ethis%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%
  284. # [12:13] <takkaria> fail!
  285. # [12:13] <BenMillard> 20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20%3C%2Fspan%3Enow%20back%20to%20large.%20And%20also%20here%20a%20few%20lines.%20And%20also%20here%20a%20few%20lines.%20And%20also%20here%20a%20few%20lines.%20And%20also%20here%20a%20few%20lines.%20And%20a
  286. # [12:13] <BenMillard> 20lines.%20And%20also%20here%20a%20few%20lines.%20And%20also%20here%20a%20few%20lines.%20%3C%2Fp%3E%0A%3Chr%3E%0A%3Cp%3E%3Cspan%20class%3D%22style1%22%3EThis%20part%20is%20only%20displayed%20correctly%20by%20opera.%20%3Cspan%20class%3D%22style2%22%3Ethis%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%2
  287. # [12:13] <BenMillard> %20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20this%20is%20very%20small.%20%3C%2Fspan%3E
  288. # [12:13] <BenMillard> 20And%20also%20here%20a%20few%20lines.%20And%20also%20here%20a%20few%20lines.%20And%20also%20here%20a%20few%20lines.%20And%20also%20here%20a%20few%20lines.%20And%20also%20here%20a%20few%20lines.%20And%20also%20here%20a%20few%20lines.%20%3C%2Fspan%3E%3C%2Fp%3E%0A%3C%2Fbody%3E%0A%3C%2Fhtml%3E
  289. # [12:13] <BenMillard> yikes, that was long
  290. # [12:15] <gsnedders> uh…
  291. # [12:15] <gsnedders> flooder!
  292. # [12:16] * gsnedders agreess with takkaria
  293. # [12:17] <Philip`> I think you should pass it through hugeurl.com first
  294. # [12:17] <gsnedders> would that not shorten it?
  295. # [12:18] <Philip`> Uh, no, because it's HugeURL and its aim is not to shorten URLs
  296. # [12:21] <BenMillard> http://xrl.us/oxesv seems to work
  297. # [12:22] <BenMillard> "(0% of the original length)" lol
  298. # [12:25] <Hish> I don't see a difference to my doc
  299. # [12:25] <Hish> the line-heights are still too large
  300. # [12:26] <BenMillard> by "works" I mean "loads the correct page without flooding this channel" :)
  301. # [12:26] <Hish> ok...
  302. # [12:27] <BenMillard> the demo is more about CSS than HTML
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  304. # [12:28] <Hish> it's more about different DTDs
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  311. # [13:55] <Hish> just a quick thanks to all who helped me with this line-height thing. I solved it using a .class>* selector.
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  319. # [15:03] <BenMillard> I see the phrase "spec lawyering" being used in documents and IRC logs but no clear explanation of what it means.
  320. # [15:04] <BenMillard> anyone care to enlighten me? :)
  321. # [15:13] <hsivonen> BenMillard: spec lawyering means reading a spec in very careful and pedantic way in order to extract precise meaning (as opposed to a more casual reading)
  322. # [15:13] <BenMillard> hsivonen, thanks!
  323. # [15:13] <BenMillard> does it imply that's a good or bad thing?
  324. # [15:15] <hsivonen> BenMillard: spec lawyering is good when implementing a spec, but it's not appropriate to expect e.g. Web authors to be spec lawyers
  325. # [15:19] <BenMillard> hsivonen, so if a web author does read a spec very carefully to extract the precise meaning of a particular feature, are they doing a good thing?
  326. # [15:20] <hsivonen> BenMillard: good thing, but we shouldn't write spec in such a way that they have to do that
  327. # [15:20] <BenMillard> I see
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  341. # [16:35] <jgraham> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9509&L=html-wg&D=0&P=32830
  342. # [16:39] <takkaria> nice!
  343. # [16:43] <takkaria> DanC in his reply to that says, "But a more important question is: which will get us to reliable interoperability quicker: getting the document base to be SGML-conforming, or getting all the deployed software to agree on a specification derived from HTMLparse.c?
  344. # [16:47] <jgraham> It's interesting that his following assumption "We documents have a short half life"has tuned out to be fairly inaccurate
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  347. # [16:59] <Philip`> jgraham: If you consider "We[b] documents" to be the collection of all documents on the web, and you reasonably assume that that collection is expanding exponentially, then it seems quite accurate to say that the half-life is short
  348. # [16:59] <Philip`> If the size of the web doubles every year, then the proportion of documents older than any given date will decay with a half life of one year
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  350. # [17:04] <takkaria> also, back in '95, they only had a few years of data
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  352. # [17:04] <Dashiva> And no geocities
  353. # [17:04] <takkaria> so everything was fairly recently edited, really
  354. # [17:05] <Philip`> "just stick around a while. Things will settle down." - and now, 13 years later...
  355. # [17:05] <Philip`> Did anyone back then expect they'd be sticking around for so long a while? :-)
  356. # [17:08] <takkaria> that a strategy has been pursued for thirteen years and has failed seems to count as good reasoning for taking a different approach
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  359. # [17:16] <Philip`> You're willing to wave the white flag of surrender and throw out all that work when we may be on the cusp of success?
  360. # [17:17] <jgraham> Philip`: It seems unfair to look at the original documents in fractional terms. A more interesting question would be given a fixed sample of documents how many of them are still useful/avaliable n years later
  361. # [17:18] <jgraham> s/terms/terms relative to the current web/
  362. # [17:18] <takkaria> Philip`: sounds suspiciously like the arguments against drug law reform
  363. # [17:20] * jgraham really doesn't understand why people get hung up about "clean" markup anyway
  364. # [17:21] <jgraham> There are obvious advantages to the original author
  365. # [17:22] <Philip`> Maybe because people wish the world was nice and clean and sensible and understandable, not just a giant collection of hacks, and so they want to promote moving in that direction
  366. # [17:24] <jgraham> But I wonder why they wish that. Is it just a built in sense of aesthetics or is there a practical benefit that can actually be realied
  367. # [17:24] <jgraham> realised
  368. # [17:24] <jgraham> I guess there might be some correlation between having conformant markup and people being able to use tools like greasemonkey although it's not obvious that that is always true
  369. # [17:25] <Philip`> Why do you say "just"? Most of human art and mathematics is about striving for aesthetics, so it seems a fairly important goal :-)
  370. # [17:26] * jgraham is going to ask for arts council funding next time he writes a html document
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  372. # [17:28] <Philip`> It's not about the aesthetics of a single HTML document, it's about the aesthetics of the entire system and associated culture
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  377. # [17:44] <jgraham> Philip`: In that case we alreasy lost and the esthetics argument should die :)
  378. # [17:44] <jgraham> aesthetics
  379. # [17:53] <takkaria> I dunno, you could probably do some funky ASCII art that was also valid HTML
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  384. # [19:04] <Philip`> jgraham: Just because perfection is unattainable, that doesn't mean you should stop striving for it :-)
  385. # [19:57] <Hixie> a lot of geeks, to some extent or another, suffer from a series of mental conditions that have in common a fundamental desire for tidyness
  386. # [19:57] <Hixie> it's not necessarily a rational thing, though geeks, given their usually high level of intelligence, will often find rationalisations for it
  387. # [19:58] <Hixie> being of that mindset myself, i would quite like markup to be more widely conforming myself :-)
  388. # [19:58] <Dashiva> I have that obsession with code and other digital things, but my apartment is a right mess
  389. # [19:58] <Hixie> yeah it varies from person to person
  390. # [19:59] <Hixie> i'm similar
  391. # [19:59] <Hixie> i know people who are the opposite
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  396. # [21:54] <othermaciej> I think the root geek desire is not necessarily for tidiness as such but for consistency
  397. # [21:54] <othermaciej> and for fitting into a system
  398. # [21:54] <othermaciej> at least as to technical things
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  404. # [22:47] <hsivonen> I wonder what kind of client-side software Roy Fielding would ship
  405. # [22:49] <takkaria> bad client-side software? :)
  406. # [22:50] <Dashiva> What's the context now?
  407. # [22:51] <jmb> that rather depends if the html his software is dealing with has come from the web or not
  408. # [22:53] <hsivonen> Dashiva: public-html
  409. # [22:54] <takkaria> it surprises me a bit that he doesn't think most web authors don't author for browsers
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The end :)