/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-11-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Nov 17 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:37] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/5AB52079-5CDC-4AA5-BD60-458A6A8ACD0E@gbiv.com
  6. # [00:37] <Hixie> i really have no idea what to make of that
  7. # [00:39] <Philip`> You could print it out and make a paper plane of it
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  12. # [01:11] <nessy> I'd call that web fundamentalism
  13. # [01:11] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  14. # [01:12] <Hixie> i don't even know what he means
  15. # [01:13] <Hixie> which i guess is his point
  16. # [01:13] <Hixie> hopefully he'll clarify
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  19. # [01:43] <jwalden> Philip`: it's a character flaw; bz argues too much with people he should ignore, even when he knows better (and he'll be the first to admit it) :-)
  20. # [01:47] <roc_> everyone I know succumbs to that at times
  21. # [01:50] <jwalden> I tend to think bz succumbs more often than others
  22. # [01:54] * roc_ is now known as roc
  23. # [02:08] <Hixie> I used to do that
  24. # [02:08] <Hixie> I designed mail filters to avoid it
  25. # [02:09] <Hixie> (the mail is filtered such that it takes enough effort for me to see it that I don't see it until after the thread is a few days old, at which point I don't feel the need to jump in anymore)
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  29. # [03:42] <Hixie> should placeholder="" apply to type=password? what about type=date? type=number?
  30. # [03:43] <Hixie> yes no yes looks like the better answer
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  32. # [03:48] * Hixie decides yes no no
  33. # [04:06] <jcranmer> ********* yesterday 7 ?
  34. # [04:25] <Hixie> hm?
  35. # [04:26] <Hixie> rb is such a troll it's hilarious
  36. # [04:26] <Hixie> his lst 6 or 7 e-mails have all said the exact same thing and avoided answering any of the actual questions he was asked
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  43. # [07:05] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  44. # [07:05] * Set by Hixie on Thu Oct 23 14:38:15
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  84. # [10:08] <yecril71> The wording "static object" is ambiguous indeed, new or not new.
  85. # [10:08] <yecril71> I would rather say "snapshot" to avoid misunderstandings.
  86. # [10:11] <Hixie> "static" is far more correct english than "snapshot" for this case
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  88. # [10:15] <hsivonen> is comatose politically incorrect? The kind of NodeLists the Selectors API returns are comatose, not live.
  89. # [10:16] <hsivonen> or a copy of the value
  90. # [10:16] <Hixie> "static" is the right word, people's misunderstandings notwithstanding
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  93. # [10:38] <takkaria> 7B7B7B7B7B7B7B7BThen the operations could still handle that common case of being the
  94. # [10:38] <takkaria> setter/getter methods.Then the operations could still handle that common case of being the
  95. # [10:38] <takkaria> oops, sorry
  96. # [10:38] <takkaria> Then the operations could still handle that common case of being the
  97. # [10:38] <takkaria> ack
  98. # [10:39] <takkaria> mouse is being a bit screwy. and you get no points for guessing what I'm reading
  99. # [10:45] <jruderman> i've been to that erotic-stories site
  100. # [10:46] <yecril71> Tell it to K&R.
  101. # [10:47] <yecril71> The effect of their technical vocabulary cannot be undone, I am afraid.
  102. # [10:49] <Hixie> ?
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  104. # [10:49] <Hixie> i rarely understand you, yecril71 :-)
  105. # [10:50] <yecril71> The meaning of "static" is engraved in stone by Kerrighan and Ritchie.
  106. # [10:51] <yecril71> It need not be perfect English but you cannot get rid of that.
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  108. # [10:51] <yecril71> Especially in the context of a programming language.
  109. # [10:57] <Hixie> the meaning of static as defined by C-like languages is pretty much exactly what we're talking about here
  110. # [10:57] <Hixie> so that's fine
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  112. # [11:09] <zcorpan> Hixie: perhaps you should define "static" alongside "live" and xref it
  113. # [11:09] <Hixie> well it now says "new"
  114. # [11:09] <Hixie> which seems clear to me
  115. # [11:09] <Hixie> since why would you return a new object each time if it was live
  116. # [11:10] <zcorpan> ok
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  118. # [11:13] <hsivonen> http://blog.jclark.com/2008/11/what-allowed-in-uri.html
  119. # [11:16] <Hixie> not sure what to make of that
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  122. # [11:25] <yecril71> See e.g. the documentation of "itoa", or "localtime".
  123. # [11:25] <yecril71> It is not reentrant *because* it returns a static object.
  124. # [11:25] <yecril71> (a pointer to one)
  125. # [11:26] <yecril71> Your argument about "new" is valid but:
  126. # [11:26] <yecril71> - it can be easily overlooked
  127. # [11:27] <yecril71> - the statement seems contradictory.
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  129. # [11:34] <Hish> hi. regarding the <output for"id1 id2 id3> element: is there a way for the #id1 element to find out in which output element it is used for calculation?
  130. # [11:35] <hsivonen> yay for placeholder
  131. # [11:38] <Hixie> Hish: not currently
  132. # [11:38] <Hish> ok. thx.
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  137. # [11:49] <takkaria> wow, WF2 integration work is pretty much done
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  139. # [11:54] <Hixie> getting there
  140. # [11:55] <Hixie> i need to go through the wf2 spec at one point line by line
  141. # [11:55] <Hixie> making sure i haven't missed anything
  142. # [11:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you have plans on rewriting the meta sniffing algorithm as a state machine?
  143. # [11:56] <Hixie> which one?
  144. # [11:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: the prescan on bytes
  145. # [11:56] <Hixie> "8.2.2.1 Determining the character encoding"?
  146. # [11:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes
  147. # [11:57] <Hixie> no, no intention of rewriting that section.
  148. # [11:57] <Hixie> why?
  149. # [11:57] <Hixie> does it need it?
  150. # [11:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: it might be useful to implment it as a state machine at least
  151. # [11:58] <hsivonen> unless waiting for the first n bytes has a trivial perf hit even when the meta occurs slighly before n
  152. # [11:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you have plans on prescribing speculative script tag prescanning?
  153. # [11:58] <Hixie> i imagine waiting for bytes will take far longer than reading them
  154. # [11:58] <Hixie> no
  155. # [11:58] <Hixie> other than network traffic, it has no observable side-effects
  156. # [11:59] <hsivonen> ok
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  165. # [12:56] <mookid> Hixie: someone said you would be the person to talk about with regards to an informal proposal
  166. # [12:56] <Hixie> sure
  167. # [12:56] <mookid> did you read any of it previously?
  168. # [12:56] <mookid> It was a discussion abuot an optional Accept attribute
  169. # [12:57] <mookid> for indicating content-type of a request
  170. # [12:57] <mookid> in the Accept header
  171. # [12:58] <Hixie> just saw an e-mail about it, filed it along with other forms-related feedback for future consideration (it can take years for me to get to replying to a particular e-mail, there's 2545 e-mails in my feedback pile right now)
  172. # [12:58] <mookid> it's not forms related :P
  173. # [12:58] <mookid> an optional tag for <a> or <img> - any hypermedia request
  174. # [12:59] <mookid> to indicate to the browser what Accept header to send
  175. # [12:59] <mookid> having this as part of HTML5 will stop encourageing developers to misuse URI's and include content-type in them
  176. # [13:00] <Hixie> yeah i guess it should have been put in the links folder
  177. # [13:00] <Hixie> no biggie
  178. # [13:00] <Hixie> to be honest though personally i think the whole http content negotiation feature is a big failure and we'd be better off removing the whole thing from http
  179. # [13:01] <mookid> it's a failure because HTML and Browser support for the rfc is pathetic? -_-
  180. # [13:01] <Hixie> i haven't seen many people using it, i've seen very few people needing it, and users seem to get confused by it whenever they are exposed to it
  181. # [13:01] <mookid> you can't use it because the markup is insufficient
  182. # [13:02] <Hixie> no i think it's a failure because it solves a problem that doesn't exist in a way that isn't compatible with the way most people (authors and users) think
  183. # [13:02] <mookid> they only think that way because the HTML they've been working with is crap.!
  184. # [13:02] <mookid> that's not a fair criticism of HTTP
  185. # [13:02] <mookid> that's a problem with HTML and browsers
  186. # [13:03] <mookid> content-type doesn't belong in a resource identifier, is what I'm getting at
  187. # [13:06] <Hixie> what problem does this solve?
  188. # [13:06] <Hixie> content-type is a waste of time too, we should just be using unique identification strings for content types like the PNG header
  189. # [13:12] <mookid> right - you're suggesting that content negotiation belongs in the URI
  190. # [13:13] <mookid> reading Roy Fielding's dissertation it becomes clear that this is not the intention of a URI at all
  191. # [13:14] <mookid> I'm suggesting a way that HTML can allow for both - I don't see how that's a bad thing
  192. # [13:14] <mookid> unless, of course, you understand HTTP better than Roy..! :P
  193. # [13:16] <Hixie> i'm suggesting that there not be any content negotiation because people don't need it or care for it
  194. # [13:19] <Hixie> anyway, bed time for me now
  195. # [13:19] <Hixie> nn
  196. # [13:22] <hsivonen> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/parser/htmlparser/public/nsIParser.h#89
  197. # [13:22] <hsivonen> that's a lot of different cases...
  198. # [13:22] <hsivonen> now I need to figure out which ones are tentative and which ones are confident
  199. # [13:26] <hsivonen> I guess < 9 are tentative and >= 9 are confident
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  207. # [13:50] <mookid> Hixie: content negotiation is one of the main components of RESTful APIs - it allows your URI's to serve JSON/XML for application interaction and HTML for user interaction
  208. # [13:51] <mookid> if you take out content-negotiation that means one URI can only serve one content-type
  209. # [13:51] <mookid> one URI = one resource
  210. # [13:52] <mookid> one resource can have many representations
  211. # [13:55] <hsivonen> mookid: what problem is solved if to dereference a link you need a URI and an accept value and then you stick these into separate places in the HTTP request instead of baking the format identification into the URI?
  212. # [13:55] <mookid> because that's not the purpose of a URI
  213. # [13:55] <hsivonen> mookid: that's not a statement of solving a problem.
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  215. # [13:56] <mookid> no, but the approach that - well everyone uses URIs to negotiate content so therefore it's the best way
  216. # [13:56] <mookid> is equally insufficient
  217. # [13:56] <hsivonen> why?
  218. # [13:56] <mookid> because it's purely the inadequacy of html and browsers that has led to that
  219. # [13:56] <hsivonen> sounds like dogma to me
  220. # [13:57] <hsivonen> not like an actual problem
  221. # [13:57] <mookid> have you read Roy Fielding's thesis? there are benefits from having one URI for a resource
  222. # [13:58] <hsivonen> mookid: I have read parts of it, but I haven't read it from start to finish.
  223. # [13:58] <hsivonen> mookid: can you point me to a benefit?
  224. # [13:58] <mookid> yes
  225. # [13:58] <mookid> So I can send a colleague a message; 'you can get the report at http://example.com/report', and they can use that URL in any user agent that is appropriate. A browser is a special case in which many different content-types are dealt with. The same benefit is not achieved if the content is negotiated via the URL, since the user would have to know the type their user agent required and modify the URL accordingly
  226. # [13:59] <mookid> it means that you can use one URI to serve several user agents
  227. # [13:59] <hsivonen> what other user agent would the colleague use?
  228. # [13:59] <mookid> they could maybe use excel
  229. # [13:59] <mookid> or.. word.. or wahtever
  230. # [13:59] <mookid> this is the direction web applications are going
  231. # [14:00] <mookid> I'm not making this up for nothing!
  232. # [14:00] <hsivonen> so isn't the accept header bit then something that the agent should generate instead of something that the the hypertext reference should contain?
  233. # [14:00] <mookid> browsers are different case really
  234. # [14:01] <mookid> they, generally, pass the content to the OS if they can't understand it
  235. # [14:02] <mookid> most UA's just handle one filetype
  236. # [14:02] <mookid> browsers do lots - whcih is why it would be nice to have that ability reflected in html
  237. # [14:02] <mookid> does that make sense?
  238. # [14:03] <hsivonen> so if you feed them general Web URLs, you are likely to end up frustrated, which is why the user probably wants to know a priori that the URL works with a particular kind of non-browser HTTP agent
  239. # [14:03] <hsivonen> mookid: no, I don't think your argumentation makes sense
  240. # [14:03] <mookid> they will, generally, have some idea - the worst that can happen is there UA will say "nope, no good here"
  241. # [14:03] * jcranmer is now known as jcranmer|away
  242. # [14:03] <mookid> well it makes sense because I'm suggesting the best solution is to provide a way to use HTTP as it was intended
  243. # [14:03] * jcranmer|away is now known as jcranmer
  244. # [14:04] <hsivonen> If you send me an URL to a report, why would I try it in Excel if you didn't tell me that it has been specifically crafted to work usefully in Excel?
  245. # [14:04] <mookid> if anyone should be justifying themselves with a use case it should be the guys saying "content negotiation is done in URIs"
  246. # [14:05] <mookid> well the idea is that as the application frameworks for these kinds of APIs grow.. all user agents will be able to interact with the data
  247. # [14:05] <mookid> e.g. opening it in iTunes streams a voice-translated version for the blind
  248. # [14:05] <mookid> that type of thing
  249. # [14:05] <hsivonen> no, only user agents that support the particular flavor(s) of data availabale will work
  250. # [14:06] <hsivonen> it's useless to try a URL that deferences into KML in Excel, for example.
  251. # [14:06] <mookid> right.. so the worst that can happen is a UA says 'nope sorry I dont know what to do with that'
  252. # [14:06] <hsivonen> if I have a zillion agents in addition to a browser, do I try each one when you send me and architecturally correct URL?
  253. # [14:07] <mookid> well you pick the one you know/guess is appropriate
  254. # [14:07] <mookid> you're assuming complete ignorance on behalf of the user
  255. # [14:08] <hsivonen> no, I'm assuming that a user who gets an HTTP URL by email without additional instruction dereferences the URL using a browser
  256. # [14:08] <mookid> I would send an email out saying "here's the report: example.com/report, you can open it in excel, powerpoint, and word" - how would you do it with URIs? :)
  257. # [14:09] <hsivonen> Here's the report in various formats http://example.com/report.xls, http://example.com/report.ppt and http://example.com/report.doc
  258. # [14:09] <mookid> but if they're all the same resourcee
  259. # [14:10] <mookid> just different representations
  260. # [14:10] <mookid> then that's a misuse of the term URI
  261. # [14:10] <mookid> I've spent a fair amoutn of time studying this
  262. # [14:10] <mookid> I'm not suggesting this for fun..!
  263. # [14:10] <hsivonen> I posit that the case where the alternative representations of a resource are truly equivalent is so rare that it is pointless to design for it
  264. # [14:11] <mookid> like RSS feed and index.html ?
  265. # [14:11] <mookid> :)
  266. # [14:12] <hsivonen> an RSS feed and index.html are rarely equivalent in the sense that one didn't contain some information that the other contains
  267. # [14:12] <mookid> I think my report example makes sense.. the only reason these kinds of interactions arent the case is because web application development is young.. and because html discourages peolpe from using URIs as they were intended
  268. # [14:12] <mookid> they are completely equivalent in the majority of cases
  269. # [14:12] <mookid> look at blogs..
  270. # [14:12] <mookid> look at technorati..
  271. # [14:13] <hsivonen> mookid: well, depends on at what point in time you cast "intended" in stone
  272. # [14:13] <mookid> well..
  273. # [14:13] <hsivonen> mookid: the original HTTP didn't even have content types
  274. # [14:13] <mookid> I'd call an rfc.. an intention
  275. # [14:13] <mookid> HTTP 1.1 did
  276. # [14:13] <mookid> and does
  277. # [14:13] <mookid> so that's a mute point
  278. # [14:13] <hsivonen> so one might write Accept off as later day astronauting ;-)
  279. # [14:13] <mookid> ?
  280. # [14:14] <mookid> you aren't doing a very good job of convincing me I have to say
  281. # [14:14] <hsivonen> mookid: HTTP conneg is younger than URLs
  282. # [14:14] <mookid> I've spent a fair while looking at this
  283. # [14:14] <hsivonen> I could say the same thing.
  284. # [14:14] <mookid> well I'm looking at how it is defined now.. and how people are using it moving forwards (which is presumably what HTML5 should be looking at)
  285. # [14:14] <mookid> well you admitted that you havent read that much into it
  286. # [14:15] <mookid> why would you not want to give developers the option at least?
  287. # [14:15] <hsivonen> I haven't read the canonical theory in its entirety. I have considered the practical side quite a bit.
  288. # [14:15] <mookid> how can you do that if you dont have a full grasp of the concepts?
  289. # [14:15] <hsivonen> mookid: giving the option is not free
  290. # [14:15] <hsivonen> mookid: also, conneg sucks for seachability
  291. # [14:15] <mookid> free?
  292. # [14:16] <mookid> does it?
  293. # [14:16] <hsivonen> mookid: implementing the feature has an opportunity cost: the developers wouldn't be doing something else
  294. # [14:17] <mookid> these kinds of functionality is what helps the framework developers
  295. # [14:17] <mookid> if you can standardise this stuff it will assist tooling for proper HTTP transactions
  296. # [14:17] <hsivonen> mookid: yes, without representation-specific URIs and with a countably infinite set of potential Accept values, how do you index all representations of a resource?
  297. # [14:18] <mookid> that's an issue of producing a format for spiders
  298. # [14:18] <mookid> that's a non issue if all it requires is another content type built specifically for crawlers
  299. # [14:18] <hsivonen> well, doing that isn't costless, either
  300. # [14:18] <hsivonen> afk, I'll be back
  301. # [14:18] <mookid> depends how your aplpication is built
  302. # [14:18] <mookid> if you're just providing an extra view to a model
  303. # [14:18] <mookid> it's a 2 second job
  304. # [14:19] <mookid> across the board
  305. # [14:20] <mookid> content negotiation is bad right now for searchability because it *is* done in the URI
  306. # [14:20] <mookid> that's the point I'm trying to get across here
  307. # [14:21] <mookid> google are championing REST for a reason
  308. # [14:21] <mookid> :)
  309. # [14:22] <takkaria> relying on authors to provide an index of their representations to spiders seems very prone to spamming attempts
  310. # [14:23] <Philip`> Why is it any more prone to that than providing a separate HTML document which links to lots of other URIs that spiders will follow?
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  313. # [14:25] <Philip`> (Unintentional errors seem a more important problem, because people would forget about their spider-specific index and it would be buggy or out-of-date)
  314. # [14:25] <takkaria> fair point
  315. # [14:26] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  316. # [14:28] <hsivonen> mookid: is google really championing REST according to Fielding or POX over HTTP Web services with a lower case s?
  317. # [14:29] <hsivonen> I'd argue that AtomPub-based services are their own class of services with Atom-aware clients. They aren't totally generic conneg
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  320. # [14:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I believe I've now addressed the problems that blocked building v.nu on Windows
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  325. # [15:07] * MikeSmith wonders why/whether "using HTTP as it was intended" should be a goal
  326. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> I would doubt that most people would say we are now using HTML as it was originally intended
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  328. # [15:11] <hsivonen> looks like I need to expand my fragment parsing API to deal with fragments rooted at foreign content...
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  334. # [15:27] <hsivonen> when a document has been created with document.open() and everything is document.written, does the first level of document.write count as being equivalent to a network stream or does it count as the first level of document write?
  335. # [15:27] <hsivonen> I assume the former considering the behavior of Hixie's live dom viewer
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  337. # [15:32] <zcorpan> hsivonen: that's nice
  338. # [15:32] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  339. # [15:35] * hsivonen finds
  340. # [15:35] <hsivonen> // Hack to pass on to the dtd the caller's desire to
  341. # [15:35] <hsivonen> // parse a fragment without worrying about containment rules
  342. # [15:35] <hsivonen> if (aMode == eDTDMode_fragment)
  343. # [15:35] <hsivonen> mCommand = eViewFragment;
  344. # [15:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: have you studied the purpose/impact of Gecko having some kind of magic fragment mode for containment rules?
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  348. # [16:02] <pergj> hsivonen: I don't remember seeing anything in the HTML5 spec that would give different behaviour for document.write immediately after document.open
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  351. # [16:04] <hsivonen> pergj: but if document.write after document.open counted as the first level of document.write, how could Hixie's live dom viewer have the right document.write semantics?
  352. # [16:06] <pergj> hm... Not sure...
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  382. # [18:04] <takkaria>
  383. # [18:04] <takkaria>
  384. # [18:04] <takkaria>
  385. # [18:04] <takkaria>
  386. # [18:04] <takkaria>
  387. # [18:06] <BenMillard> takkaria, you just sent 5 empty messages. So now who's "fail"! :P
  388. # [18:07] <Dashiva> They're not empty, they're images encoded with lenpeg v2
  389. # [18:08] * Quits: pesl (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  390. # [18:08] <BenMillard> oh, they show up empty in Opera and the logs
  391. # [18:11] <Dashiva> http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/lenpeg.html
  392. # [18:11] <BenMillard> yeah, I've just reached the bottom of that :(
  393. # [18:13] <takkaria> ah, oops
  394. # [18:13] <takkaria> my mouse is doing weird things today
  395. # [18:14] <takkaria> mixed with X11's middle-click-is-paste thing, bad things happen
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  399. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> takkaria: your mouse should meet Hixie's cats
  400. # [18:24] <takkaria> :)
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  403. # [18:38] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, nice job on the TPAC 2008 minutes and overview page.
  404. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> BenMillard: thanks for your prompting. I still need to add some of the links you suggested
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  409. # [18:49] <jmb> so, a really unscientific measure of how complex the html5 parsing algorithm is in comparison with a pre-existing html4 parser:
  410. # [18:49] <jmb> sloccount on libxml's HTML{parser,tree}.c => 5188 sloc
  411. # [18:50] <jmb> sloccount on hubbub's tokeniser and treebuilder source trees => 9127 sloc
  412. # [18:52] <takkaria> I imagine hubbub has more boilerplate than lixml though
  413. # [18:53] <jmb> could well. hence "unscientific" :)
  414. # [18:57] * Joins: Maurice` (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  415. # [18:58] <jmb> oh, in case anyone cares, that's libxml 2.7.2, and hubbub svn head
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  420. # [19:04] <gsnedders> First two thoughts when writing CV: 1) What do I put in it? 2) How do I mark it up?
  421. # [19:05] <takkaria> look at Tim Bray's
  422. # [19:05] * gsnedders doesn't like the markup of Hixie's :)
  423. # [19:06] <takkaria> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2005/11/12/Template.html
  424. # [19:07] <Philip`> Nobody cares about the markup, since they'll just print it out :-p
  425. # [19:07] <gsnedders> Is it really a table though?
  426. # [19:11] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-058.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk)
  427. # [19:12] <takkaria> it's not really a table, I don't think, but I don't think it matters
  428. # [19:12] <takkaria> you evidently do :)
  429. # [19:12] <gsnedders> http://alexking.org/site/projects/html-resume-template/demo/resume.php semms a lot closer
  430. # [19:12] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@207.47.11.2.static.nextweb.net)
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  433. # [19:18] <BenMillard> gsnedders, mine is here and I was told "your CV rocks" by 1 potential employer: http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/
  434. # [19:18] <gsnedders> How ugly.
  435. # [19:18] * gsnedders ducks
  436. # [19:18] <BenMillard> yeah, the visual aspects aren't my strong point :)
  437. # [19:18] <BenMillard> the markup and content is what you seemed interested by
  438. # [19:19] <BenMillard> anyway, dinnertime now, cya
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  447. # [19:46] <gsnedders> Prince doesn't support meta@charset seemingly
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  449. # [19:50] <takkaria> no, it doesn't
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  453. # [19:59] <jcranmer> I presume if I had <input type="xxxinvalid">, would getting .type return "text" ?
  454. # [19:59] <jcranmer> s/would/then/
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  458. # [20:13] <gsnedders> jcranmer: yes
  459. # [20:13] <jcranmer> ah, good :-)
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  463. # [20:35] <Dashiva> public-hmtl is back in high gear again, I see
  464. # [20:37] <takkaria> lots of revs but the break is on
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  474. # [21:23] <Lachy> Hixie, Thanks for finally adding placeholder :-)
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  525. # Session Close: Tue Nov 18 00:00:00 2008

The end :)