/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-11-21 / end

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  21. # [01:09] <jgraham> http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.html has some probably-horribly broken implementation of the HTML5 headers algorithm as it is currently in the spec. Note that the URL structure has changed a little so old links won't work 'till I set up a redirect
  22. # [01:09] <jgraham> I will fix bugs some other day
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  26. # [01:58] <Lachy> wow, isn't it nice when people do a little research and come up with the same result that others have tried to point out all along! http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-November/017367.html
  27. # [02:00] <Dashiva> Lachy: We should all be happy it ended well
  28. # [02:00] <Lachy> I am
  29. # [02:22] <Hixie> yeah i was impressed by that guy's humbleness
  30. # [02:22] <Hixie> we could all learn from that :-)
  31. # [02:27] <Philip`> The only problem is he seems to be missing the people who say <link rel="made" href="Mr A. Square"> and <link rel="made" href="asquare@example.com"> :-)
  32. # [02:27] <Philip`> Uh
  33. # [02:27] <Philip`> s/rel/rev/
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  91. # [07:34] <hsivonen> Philip`: the parsing spec is not complex for the sake of complexity
  92. # [07:34] <hsivonen> Philip`: would it be elitist to suggest that some Web authors can't program at all and, therefore, won't be writing parsers?
  93. # [07:36] <hsivonen> Philip`: I think the current way of speccing it is less elitist that e.g. one that required readers to grok lex/yacc/ocaml
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  109. # [08:37] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Oct/0126.html (Member-only link)
  110. # [08:42] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Oct/0135.html
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  112. # [08:46] <annevk2> o_O
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  117. # [08:54] <hsivonen> Tantek's troll taxonomy lacks an anti-browser troll. http://tantek.pbwiki.com/TrollTaxonomy
  118. # [08:55] <roc> did everyone see that IE8's having a third beta Q12009, with a final release some time after that?
  119. # [08:56] * hsivonen had not seen the news
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  122. # [08:57] <annevk2> I didn't
  123. # [08:58] * annevk2 thought IE8 would come during Christmas
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  125. # [09:02] <roc> that had been the plan
  126. # [09:05] <annevk2> I wonder why Gmail now has a fucked up color scheme
  127. # [09:06] <roc> it actually has several to choose from
  128. # [09:06] <roc> remember it's still in beta
  129. # [09:07] <hsivonen> can anyone remember if scripts inside objects and applets run?
  130. # [09:07] <hsivonen> (I expect them to run)
  131. # [09:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yep they do
  132. # [09:13] <hsivonen> thanks
  133. # [09:14] <zcorpan> but ie is different
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  135. # [09:16] <annevk2> roc, beta, hah :)
  136. # [09:16] <annevk2> where can I pick the default one?
  137. # [09:17] <roc> correction: the Q12009 IE8 release will be a "release candidate", not a "beta"
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  139. # [09:18] <annevk2> ah, themes
  140. # [09:18] * hsivonen wonders if Release Candidate in MS vocabulary means potentially final compiler output
  141. # [09:18] <roc> doesn't sound like it
  142. # [09:18] * annevk2 sets it back to classic
  143. # [09:19] * hsivonen finds that and XLink-aware tree builder may have to stop the parser
  144. # [09:20] <hsivonen> s/and/an/
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  146. # [09:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: is HTML5 supposed to allow XLink autolinks?
  147. # [09:25] <annevk2> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/11/20/HTML-Pain
  148. # [09:27] <annevk2> seems that Tim Bray hasn't really done his homework
  149. # [09:27] <hsivonen> yeah
  150. # [09:28] <annevk2> because for half of the things he likes to do the "language specification" would be utterly unusable
  151. # [09:30] <roc> Are people actually opposed to the existence of Mike Smith's document?
  152. # [09:33] <hsivonen> roc: I'm not opposed to existence but I am opposed to existence on the REC track (where some people want to put it).
  153. # [09:33] <annevk2> I've seen some people being opposed; I'm not exactly sure why
  154. # [09:34] <annevk2> I don't think it should be normative given that then it would duplicate information of another normative specification, but I suppose I could live with it
  155. # [09:34] <roc> yeah it shouldn't be normative
  156. # [09:35] <roc> but otherwise it seems like a great thing
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  158. # [09:39] <hsivonen> roc: It's great as a reference for people who like RELAX NG Compact Syntax
  159. # [09:39] <annevk2> I bet that if we wrote HTML5 in RDF everyone could easily get their own version they like using SPARQL
  160. # [09:39] <roc> it's not safe to even joke about such things
  161. # [09:40] <hsivonen> annevk2: see ARIA
  162. # [09:40] <hsivonen> (I like RELAX NG Compact Syntax)
  163. # [09:41] <hsivonen> (not as normative spec, though, because it's not sufficient and it's too easy for people to ignore the parts that don't get expressed as RELAX NG Compact Syntax)
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  167. # [10:13] <annevk2> "On our way back the TSA told me I couldn't keep my apple juice. I asked if I could drink it first. They said only if I went back outside. I asked if they meant that my apple juice was a danger in the security area but safe outside, and they confirmed that that was the case." hahaha
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  183. # [11:40] <jgraham> BenMillard: Did you see that I have some new table inspector stuff for you to play with?
  184. # [11:43] <BenMillard> jgraham, yeah that's why I arrived here :)
  185. # [11:43] <BenMillard> why the change URL structure? are the costs really worth the gains?
  186. # [11:44] <jgraham> BenMillard:I set up a redirect
  187. # [11:44] <jgraham> So old links should work
  188. # [11:44] <jgraham> It is much easier to mintain with the new structure; no need to move stuff around on the server
  189. # [11:45] <BenMillard> oh, ok
  190. # [11:46] <BenMillard> I've tried a few old links and they work, but seem slow
  191. # [11:48] <BenMillard> jgraham, could you generate a link on the output page which points to where the table came from when inspecting via URI?
  192. # [11:48] <jgraham> It is possible that I could do better using symlinks or something. However if you can edit the old links, just remove the /cgi-bin/
  193. # [11:48] <jgraham> BenMillard: Sure
  194. # [11:49] <BenMillard> it seems the slowness of the links I tried was due to the complexity of the table being inspected :)
  195. # [11:49] <BenMillard> jgraham, oh that'll be easy enough to change on my blog...can't change archived e-mails though
  196. # [11:52] <BenMillard> jgraham, I take it the isHeading check means <td scope> isn't treated as a header cell in your implementation of Smart Headers? (http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/browse/trunk/tables/lib/headers/smartheaders.py#54)
  197. # [11:56] <jgraham> BenMillard: <td scope> isn't
  198. # [11:56] <BenMillard> jgraham, thanks
  199. # [11:57] <BenMillard> jgraham, when clicking cells in the output, they become colour-coded which lets you see what the associations are. Because that's so effective, could you avoid showing the text of the associated header cells?
  200. # [11:57] <jgraham> BTW I moved the source to http://hg.jgraham.webfactional.com/hgwebdir.cgi/html5_tables/
  201. # [11:57] <BenMillard> clicking through the cells to view associations wouldn't make the table's layout jump around
  202. # [11:57] <jgraham> I can resync that with the google code project if that is important to anyone
  203. # [12:00] <BenMillard> jgraham, the new location is fine by me
  204. # [12:05] <Lachy> ooh, Acid 3 changed again http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Nov/0015.html
  205. # [12:10] <jgraham> BenMillard: Changes made. Time to do other stuff for a bit :) I will try to add experimental features some other time
  206. # [12:11] <BenMillard> jgraham, thanks, that works great!
  207. # [12:12] <BenMillard> hsivonen, the IE8 release schedule (and feedback, bug fixing, hints at when code freeze happens, etc) is mentioned here: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/11/19/ie8-what-s-after-beta-2.aspx
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  211. # [12:33] <hsivonen> BenMillard: yeah, it indeed looks like release candidate doesn't mean that the last release candidate and the release are identical except for the version string (byte-for-byte same DLLs)
  212. # [12:45] <BenMillard> jgraham, I get a error message for Wikipedia pages which load in the browser: "The URI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_Testarossa could not be loaded." (http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.py?input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFerrari_Testarossa&source=&algorithm=smartheaders)
  213. # [12:51] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-61f14d26065a48da) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  214. # [12:51] <hsivonen> is this intranet stuff? http://www.w3.org/TR/webcgm21/
  215. # [12:51] <hsivonen> I don't recall running into CGM content on the Web
  216. # [12:51] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-785cd8861150e92b)
  217. # [12:54] <jgraham> BenMillard: Curious
  218. # [12:59] <jgraham> BenMillard: Wikipedia is returning a 403. I guess it doesn't like the python UA string
  219. # [12:59] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.60.78)
  220. # [13:02] <BenMillard> jgraham, yeah they seem to take robots pretty seriously: http://en.wikipedia.org/robots.txt
  221. # [13:04] <BenMillard> jgraham, copying and pasting the timeline from that page gives me a "Request-URI Too Large"
  222. # [13:05] <BenMillard> it used to work, which is why I included that example...they must have started blocking tools like yours quite recently :(
  223. # [13:07] <jgraham> I guess at some point I could add a file upload option which would sort of solve the problem
  224. # [13:10] <BenMillard> jgraham, I consider this Wikipedia's problem rather than yours. :)
  225. # [13:10] <BenMillard> I get a big error page for this: http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.py?input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fprojectcerbera.com%2Fblog%2F2008%2F09%2Funtangle&source=&algorithm=html5b
  226. # [13:11] <BenMillard> says "<type 'exceptions.IndexError'>: list index out of range" at the bottom
  227. # [13:11] <BenMillard> (original table here: http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2008/09/untangle)
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  229. # [13:12] <krijnh> Any Opera dev in here?
  230. # [13:13] <krijnh> Need an explanation for http://krijnhoetmer.nl/zooi/screenshots/test-1.png :)
  231. # [13:13] <takkaria> hsivonen: I've seen CGM->bitmap converters before, but not for years
  232. # [13:13] <hsivonen> takkaria: in Web clients?
  233. # [13:15] <takkaria> no, just things like imagemagick
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  237. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: my understanding is that WebCGM is uses in the airline industry, and perhaps also aerospace. but I don't really know the details
  238. # [13:21] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  239. # [13:27] <Lachy> krijnh, which version of Opera is that?
  240. # [13:27] <krijnh> 9.62
  241. # [13:27] <krijnh> Just updated and restarted
  242. # [13:28] <Lachy> ok, I'll test it and file a bug
  243. # [13:28] <krijnh> Well
  244. # [13:28] <krijnh> You can't test it
  245. # [13:28] <Lachy> what?
  246. # [13:28] <krijnh> You'll get okay results
  247. # [13:28] <krijnh> I've got a script from a different site
  248. # [13:29] <krijnh> Which is applied to _all_ other tabs as well
  249. # [13:29] <krijnh> Which sets the height of #content to the viewport height
  250. # [13:29] <krijnh> Pretty silly stuff :)
  251. # [13:29] <Lachy> oh, I thought that was the bug
  252. # [13:29] <Lachy> so what's the problem then?
  253. # [13:29] <krijnh> That is the bug, I guess
  254. # [13:29] <krijnh> Err
  255. # [13:29] <krijnh> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/zooi/screenshots/test-2.png
  256. # [13:30] <krijnh> I don't think a cached script should apply to all sites you visit
  257. # [13:30] <krijnh> (Unless it's a UserJS, which it is not)
  258. # [13:30] <Lachy> no, it shouldn't. Can you tell me how to reproduce it, or set up a page on which I can?
  259. # [13:30] <krijnh> I have no idea how I did it..
  260. # [13:32] <Lachy> well, then I can't really help you, because a screenshot doesn't give enough diagnostic information
  261. # [13:32] <krijnh> I know..
  262. # [13:32] <krijnh> I'm trying to figure out what's happening
  263. # [13:32] <Lachy> which page is the script on, which is applying to other tabs?
  264. # [13:33] <krijnh> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/zooi/screenshots/test-3.png (where it is run twice now :)
  265. # [13:33] <krijnh> I think it's http://wijndomein.ah.nl/_js/all.min.js
  266. # [13:33] <krijnh> Could it be the length that messes things up?
  267. # [13:34] <Lachy> what's the build number of your Opera?
  268. # [13:34] <krijnh> 10467
  269. # [13:34] <krijnh> Just downloaded
  270. # [13:34] <krijnh> I've had the same issue with 9.52
  271. # [13:35] <krijnh> This is the second time I run into it btw, so it must be reproducable
  272. # [13:36] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-171-15-183.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  273. # [13:37] <krijnh> Hmm, clearing my cache doesn't solve it
  274. # [13:38] <krijnh> Restarting Opera neither
  275. # [13:40] * Joins: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@g228083009.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  276. # [13:45] <Philip`> You could hibernate your computer and then ship it to Opera to have someone debug it
  277. # [13:47] <krijnh> After clearing the cache, opera:cache should be empty, right?
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  280. # [13:49] <Lachy> krijnh, if you backup and create a clean profile, does the problem still occur?
  281. # [13:49] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-785cd8861150e92b) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  282. # [14:03] <krijnh> Just turning off JS helps
  283. # [14:04] * Joins: hallvors (n=hallvord@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  284. # [14:05] * hsivonen wonders if krijnh's site has been targeted by browser.js
  285. # [14:05] <krijnh> It's not only my site
  286. # [14:07] <ehird> new gmail is awesome
  287. # [14:08] * Philip` wonders if being targeted by browser.js should count as an honour that you're considered important enough to be worth it, or a disgrace that your site is so broken it can only be fixed via ugly hacks
  288. # [14:08] * Parts: ehird (n=ehird@eso-std.org)
  289. # [14:09] <krijnh> Cool, I get JS errors as well
  290. # [14:10] <annevk2> krijnh, maybe e-mail hallvord@opera.com with ah.nl in the subject line and a short description of the issue?
  291. # [14:10] <krijnh> hallvors is in here as well
  292. # [14:11] <krijnh> lol
  293. # [14:11] <annevk2> true, I believe he's not a fan of IRC though
  294. # [14:11] <krijnh> I'm a moron
  295. # [14:11] <krijnh> "Line 1 of User JS script"
  296. # [14:11] <krijnh> :]
  297. # [14:11] <hsivonen> ah. targeted by user.js then. :-)
  298. # [14:12] <krijnh> Not targeted
  299. # [14:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: perhaps browser.js hacks are beautiful
  300. # [14:12] * krijnh checks his userjs dir..
  301. # [14:12] <hsivonen> well, collateral damage of user.js :-)
  302. # [14:12] <krijnh> Weeh, my Desktop
  303. # [14:12] <krijnh> Brilliant
  304. # [14:13] <krijnh> Fixed, sorry for wasting your time :)
  305. # [14:13] * Lachy wonders what "Weeh, my Desktop" means
  306. # [14:13] <krijnh> Apparently I had a .js on my desktop
  307. # [14:13] * Lachy will send krijnh a bill for the time spent
  308. # [14:13] <krijnh> Which got applied to every site
  309. # [14:13] <krijnh> Yeah, that's okay
  310. # [14:13] <Philip`> hsivonen: Having looked at browser.js, I don't think they are :-)
  311. # [14:14] <Lachy> wtf? Having a JS on your desktop shouldn't be used by the browser
  312. # [14:14] <Lachy> at least, I hope it doesn't
  313. # [14:14] <krijnh> It is if your user js dir is your desktop
  314. # [14:14] <krijnh> Hence the moron part
  315. # [14:14] <Lachy> oh. Why would you set your user js dir to your desktop?
  316. # [14:14] <krijnh> I think I've tried it out once
  317. # [14:15] <Lachy> That's just crazy and leaves you wide open for various kinds of attacks
  318. # [14:15] <Philip`> If you set your User JS directory to be the same as your cache directory, would that make every script from every page you've ever visited be applied to every page you visit in the future?
  319. # [14:15] <krijnh> Yes
  320. # [14:15] <Lachy> LOL
  321. # [14:16] <krijnh> Apparently it works without providing // ==UserScript== stuff in your js
  322. # [14:16] <krijnh> Without // @include stuff
  323. # [14:16] <krijnh> That's just an Opera bug, imho..
  324. # [14:16] <krijnh> O:)
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  326. # [14:24] * krijnh doesn't get User JS
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  330. # [15:11] <Lachy> JohnResig, yt?
  331. # [15:15] * Joins: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  332. # [15:21] <BenMillard> this basically seems to describe what already happens in that the parts which are agreed are the parts which get experimental implementations, iterating and growing over time: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/11/20/Half-Full
  333. # [15:26] <BenMillard> and the annotation system allows the maturity level of HTML5 to be labelled with section-by-section granularity
  334. # [15:32] <mookid> hi fans
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  337. # [15:37] <mookid> Philip`: did you do anymore thinking? :))
  338. # [15:58] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  339. # [16:13] <Philip`> mookid: None that I can remember
  340. # [16:17] <mookid> meh; that email exchange was a bit of a let down
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  345. # [16:29] * hallvors thinks of the quote "removing options is evil".
  346. # [16:32] * gavin is now known as gavin_
  347. # [16:32] * gavin___ is now known as gavin
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  351. # [16:53] <hsivonen> the document organization discussion is a total bikeshed
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  357. # [17:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: You gonna be around Cam in early Dec?
  358. # [17:07] <gsnedders> Like, around the 9th?
  359. # [17:07] <Philip`> gsnedders: Yes
  360. # [17:08] <gsnedders> Philip`: Want to have dinner on 8th/9th?
  361. # [17:09] * gsnedders notes he has to fill out a form saying when he wants accommodation and when he wants meals in college
  362. # [17:09] <gsnedders> Interview is on the 9th
  363. # [17:09] <gsnedders> Sorry, interviews
  364. # [17:14] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  365. # [17:17] <Philip`> That could be possible
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  370. # [17:35] <JohnResig> Lachy: what's up?
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  373. # [17:40] <gsnedders> Philip`: Any preference for which day? 8th would probably be nicer for me
  374. # [17:42] <Philip`> gsnedders: I don't think it would make any difference to me
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  382. # [18:00] <gsnedders> Philip`: Then the 8th. Say 19:00?
  383. # [18:01] <gsnedders> (i guess that'll need to be ± 5 mins to keep both of us happy)
  384. # [18:05] <Lachy> JohnResig, can you add some tests to your selectors api test suite to test that a NodeList is returned from querySelectorAll instead of StaticNodeList?
  385. # [18:11] <JohnResig> Lachy: how do you mean?
  386. # [18:11] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("Leaving")
  387. # [18:12] <Dashiva> Oh boy, deconstructionist approach to HTML parsing
  388. # [18:13] * Joins: annevk2 (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  389. # [18:16] <Lachy> JohnResig, var test = document.querySelectorAll("p"); pass = (test instanceof NodeList);
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  391. # [18:21] <hsivonen> Dashiva: ?
  392. # [18:22] <JohnResig> Lachy: meaning that StaticNodeList is a subset of NodeList?
  393. # [18:22] <Dashiva> "I do not believe there is some inherent meaning in the document that exists independently of its text. The producer has no more (or less) right to infer meaning from the document than the consumer does."
  394. # [18:26] <Lachy> JohnResig, there is no StaticNodeList in the spec. It was removed a long time ago
  395. # [18:30] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@cm-84.208.153.202.getinternet.no)
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  397. # [18:41] <Philip`> gsnedders: Sounds reasonable to me :-)
  398. # [18:41] <Philip`> though I'll forget unless I'm reminded
  399. # [18:44] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'll remind 24 hours before, at least :P
  400. # [18:44] * gsnedders has no idea whether there will be internet for interviewees
  401. # [18:44] * gsnedders doubts it though
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  405. # [18:51] <hsivonen> http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.planning/browse_thread/thread/f671b48712bd956f
  406. # [18:52] <annevk2> fun
  407. # [18:53] <annevk2> hendry, hehe, you really do hear your voice in the latest Standards Suck :)
  408. # [18:53] * annevk2 thinks marcos should start publishing some more
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  438. # [21:11] <annevk2> ooh, validator.w3.org does HTML5
  439. # [21:11] <annevk2> guess I should update my code
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  455. # [22:43] <Lachy> LOL. I wonder where Dmitry will find Developers crazy enough to implement his HTML6 proposals
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  458. # [22:47] <Hixie> mark baker's opinions are coming into focus as something quite sensible
  459. # [22:48] <Hixie> i don't really agree with him about wanting the DOM attributes and content attributes in different sections, but i don't think it'd be that hard to do for most attributes
  460. # [22:48] <Hixie> for some it'd be difficult, though, like video
  461. # [22:49] <Dashiva> But wouldn't a stylesheet also handle that, for any separation within the same document?
  462. # [22:50] <Hixie> well he wants to see the definitions as far as i can tell, just clearly separated from the content attributes
  463. # [22:56] * Parts: michaeln (n=michaeln@nat/google/x-661636282dfaa54f)
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  465. # [23:05] <Lachy> yeah, that could be something reasonable to do for some elements
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  468. # [23:21] <Hixie> the WebSocket and Structured client-side storage sections are reasonably self-contained, i guess i could split them out around last call time
  469. # [23:21] <Hixie> would have to do something about MessageEvent
  470. # [23:21] <Hixie> maybe we can get that into DOM3 Events
  471. # [23:22] <Hixie> othermaciej_: btw, did you have any opinions on chaals' reply to my comments on the progress events stuff?
  472. # [23:22] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  473. # [23:23] <Hixie> it would be helpful to know what would be most helpful for implementations
  474. # [23:23] <Hixie> since if his style is better then i should change html5 to match
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  477. # [23:27] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'll take a look
  478. # [23:28] <Hixie> thx
  479. # [23:32] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.141) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  480. # [23:39] <Hixie> ok bbl.
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  482. # [23:42] <annevk2> http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/001842.html :)
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  489. # Session Close: Sat Nov 22 00:00:01 2008

The end :)