/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-11-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Nov 24 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <KrocCamen> I would combine the two. Take BeOS, and have application folders that are themselves the data folders. I would imagine in OS X terms, that you’d double click on ~/Music and you’d get finder still, but it’d be essentially iTunes. No database file, all searching/metadata done through the FS.
  4. # [00:00] <KrocCamen> (Like BeOS mail, a truly elegant app)
  5. # [00:02] <BenMillard> KrocCamen, IE uses actual files and folders for its Favourites and History. In IE8, address bar autocomplete (and similar features) use Windows Search
  6. # [00:02] <KrocCamen> With xattr / Spotlight, we really shouldn’t need these db files for each app. iTunes / Mail &c.
  7. # [00:02] <jgraham> How does it work if I have a file that I want to edit in either Lightroom or Photomatix? How does it work if, like Photomatix, I need to work on multiple files at the same time
  8. # [00:02] <KrocCamen> BenMillard - a pretty good example in a ways.
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  10. # [00:03] <KrocCamen> jgrahm - that’s what needs to be debated. Where does brand / app and document divide.
  11. # [00:04] <KrocCamen> In an ideal world where we didn’t have competition or profit goals we wouldn’t need brands. Of course, that’s going to never happen. But for a very brief period, it did exist. Right back with the LISA/Mac.
  12. # [00:06] <takkaria> ideal worlds would have plenty of competition for me. :)
  13. # [00:06] <KrocCamen> (and XEROX Parc before that of course. All the pioneers of UI never thought in term of brands/products. I find that particularly fascinating)
  14. # [00:10] <KrocCamen> One good argument against the application-centric model is Adobe Reader.
  15. # [00:10] <KrocCamen> I feel like I could roll over and die having to use that app. It offends on so many levels.
  16. # [00:10] <KrocCamen> But Apple preview is a very document-centric app, being mostly transparent to the user
  17. # [00:11] <KrocCamen> Having a brand forced down your throat just to view a simple document is anti-user.
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  19. # [00:17] <BenMillard> KrocCramen, this is the shabby homebrew VB6 text editor I made and use (based on standard MDIForm/MDIChild and RichTextBox): http://projectcerbera.com/tools/textstudio/
  20. # [00:17] <BenMillard> jgraham has a point about automatic indention...it doesn't have that but I should add it
  21. # [00:18] <BenMillard> and syntax highlighting, and UTF-8 support, but those 2 are beyond my abilities
  22. # [00:19] <KrocCamen> Looks alright. I used an OCX control for indentation and syntax highlighting
  23. # [00:19] <KrocCamen> I forget it’s name though
  24. # [00:20] <BenMillard> given your strong views on UI, I feel blessed to have escaped with a "looks alright" :)
  25. # [00:25] <KrocCamen> Art is personality.
  26. # [00:27] <KrocCamen> UX for the masses is not the same as UX for solving problems :)
  27. # [00:33] <jgraham> BenMillard: Good indentation is a hard problem: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html (just under the orange heading that says "Missing highlighting")
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  29. # [00:51] <BenMillard> jgraham, oh yeah doing it properly like that is WAY beyond me!
  30. # [00:51] <BenMillard> jgraham, I would have followed the VB6 IDE convention, which always assumes the "same indentation as the previous line" when you press Return
  31. # [00:52] <BenMillard> jgraham, with Tab increasing indention by 1 level (and applies to multiple lines of you select multiple lines) and Shift+Tab decreasing in the same way
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  33. # [00:53] <KrocCamen> Sometimes computer’s shouldn’t overthink. It prevents the user expressing their artistic nature.
  34. # [01:00] <jcranmer> s/r's/rs/
  35. # [01:01] <jcranmer> er, s /r’s/rs/
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  74. # [09:00] <zcorpan> i wonder why validator.w3.org just says "HTML5" rather than "(X)HTML5+ARIA"
  75. # [09:05] <zcorpan> "The DOCTYPE Declaration for "HTML5" has been inserted at the start of the document, but even if no errors are shown below the document will not be Valid until you add the new DOCTYPE Declaration." it says for XHTML5
  76. # [09:07] <zcorpan> hmm i guess the proper label would be "HTML5+ARIA / XHTML5+ARIA, SVG 1.1 plus MathML 2.0 (experimental)"
  77. # [09:09] <Hixie> "html5" seems like a more understandable label :-)
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  89. # [10:48] <annevk3> http://standardssuck.org/uhuru-peak
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  91. # [10:55] <hsivonen> annevk3: how does the clothing stuff work when one climbs to Uhuru peak? is there documentation on how warm clothes you need to bring and then you add layers as you go higher? You start walking in a *very* warm climate, I presume.
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  93. # [10:59] <annevk3> there's no real documentation, but it basically involves adding layers once you go higher :)
  94. # [11:00] <annevk3> above 4000 or so starts freezing at night and above 4000-5000 it will always be cold and there's a possibility for snow
  95. # [11:01] <annevk3> (in Europe the heights would be lower, but you still have the same effect)
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  98. # [11:09] <zcorpan> my public-html folder had 100 unread emails this morning and only 3 or so were worth reading
  99. # [11:09] <zcorpan> why are everyone so obsessed about splitting the spec
  100. # [11:10] <annevk3> it's an easy thing to have an opinion about
  101. # [11:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: spec organization seems like the ultimate bikeshed
  102. # [11:10] <annevk3> I have never actually tried to find out if it's true, but I've the feeling that simple matters attract way more comments than complex ones
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  104. # [11:17] <Philip`> Maybe people care because the organisation of the spec has a fundamental impact on its readability for them
  105. # [11:18] <zcorpan> the discussion about spec organisation has a fundamental impact on my readability of the list
  106. # [11:18] <zcorpan> or well, not spec organisation discussions in particular but bikesheds in general
  107. # [11:19] <hsivonen> Philip`: maybe I'm just cynical, but I think some people might be discussing the organization without testing the readability by trying to read the spec
  108. # [11:20] <annevk3> very annoying that Flickr doesn't store the date the video was actually taken
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  112. # [12:06] <virtuelv> JohnResig: you around?
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  122. # [15:07] <Philip`> Gmail's automatic service suggestion thing is great
  123. # [15:07] <Philip`> For the thread "setting HTMLMediaElement volume and playbackRate attributes", it suggests "Would you like to... Track DHL package 0000000000"
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  144. # [16:51] <Philip`> If I write a table with headings along the top and other headings along the left edge, and the top-left cell is empty because there's nothing for it to say, should that top-left cell be a <td> or a <th> or something else?
  145. # [16:52] <gsnedders> Philip`: td
  146. # [16:52] <Philip`> gsnedders: But it's not a data cell
  147. # [16:53] * gsnedders opens the damned spec
  148. # [16:54] <gsnedders> It should be neither tr nor td.]
  149. # [16:54] <gsnedders> *th or td
  150. # [16:54] <gsnedders> Which is rather problematic.
  151. # [16:55] * Philip` chooses th, for no good reason (other than the necessity of at least choosing something)
  152. # [16:57] <Philip`> Oh, maybe td would be better because then it's an #empty-data-cell
  153. # [16:58] <takkaria> the spec should provide feedback on that
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  155. # [17:06] <jgraham> It should be designed to make no practical difference either way
  156. # [17:06] <jgraham> Since authors will choose at random raher than based on the spec
  157. # [17:07] <gsnedders> ooo…
  158. # [17:07] <gsnedders> new standards suck!
  159. # [17:07] <Philip`> gsnedders: So do old ones
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  161. # [17:07] <Philip`> only moreso
  162. # [17:08] <jgraham> Does anyone know anything about parking in copenhagen? Like whether there are any reasonably secure car parks?
  163. # [17:08] * jgraham realises this is something of a long shot
  164. # [17:09] * gsnedders forwards the question
  165. # [17:10] <Philip`> jgraham: The obvious place to look is http://www.parking.dk/
  166. # [17:10] <jgraham> Philip`: That didn't provide an obvious answer to my quesion alhough I may not have been looking hard enough
  167. # [17:11] <Philip`> parking.co.uk is much less helpful :-(
  168. # [17:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: "define: reasonable…"
  169. # [17:12] * Joins: fangel (n=fangel@0807ds3-ynoe.0.fullrate.dk)
  170. # [17:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: "there are underground parks, and I would assume that they have CCTV"
  171. # [17:12] * gsnedders pokes fangel, ahrd
  172. # [17:12] <gsnedders> *hard
  173. # [17:12] <fangel> <- copenhagen'er..
  174. # [17:12] * gsnedders runs away
  175. # [17:12] * gsnedders has carried out his usefulness by bullying fangel in here
  176. # [17:13] <fangel> yes.. that is all you're good for really, gsnedders..
  177. # [17:13] <jgraham> Oh, well that sounds quite promising
  178. # [17:13] * gsnedders realizes he ought to get train tickets to Cambridge
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  180. # [17:14] * Philip` suddenly discovers Firefox 3.1 has a fancy ctrl-tab menu, but also discovers it has a stupid unusable ordering of tabs and can't find a way to correct it :-(
  181. # [17:15] <fangel> jgraham: so.. I heard rumours of questions.. horrible questions regarding my lovely hometown of Copenhagen..
  182. # [17:16] <blooberry> philip`: is that new in 3.1?
  183. # [17:16] <jgraham> fangel: Yeah, I have to stay somewhere overnight located roughly where Copenhagen happens to be and will have a reasonable amount of stuff in the car that I would prefer not to be stolen
  184. # [17:17] <jgraham> Not hugely valuble, but it would be a pain
  185. # [17:17] <jgraham> So one possibility is to stay in Copenhagen and park in some kind of secure car park, if such a thing exists
  186. # [17:18] <jgraham> Another possibility would be to stay somewhere not in Copenhagen and assume that not being in a city mitigates the risk
  187. # [17:18] <Philip`> blooberry: I assume so, since I haven't seen it in 3.0
  188. # [17:19] <jgraham> Philip`: Which build are you running? It seems to have disappeared a few days ago for me
  189. # [17:20] <Philip`> jgraham: 20081111
  190. # [17:20] <fangel> sorry... phone
  191. # [17:21] <fangel> there are underground parkingplaces which I would assume has CCTV..
  192. # [17:21] <fangel> parking lots.. parking.. whats the word?
  193. # [17:21] <jgraham> in en-gb carparks
  194. # [17:21] <fangel> and maybe some of the larger hotels has their own underground carpark..
  195. # [17:22] <jgraham> The larger hotels tend to be rather expensive...
  196. # [17:22] <fangel> but as long as whatever stuff your hauling is in the boot, it should be reasonable safe to keep it on the street overnight..
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  198. # [17:22] <jgraham> I guess the whole back of the car will be full
  199. # [17:23] <jgraham> Are the underground carparks the ones shown on http://www.p-henvisning.dk/
  200. # [17:24] <fangel> yeah.. if you can see it though the windows, it might be a bit of a temptation.. but I don't think car-break-ins are that bad if you park it on a random street.. but well - there are pay-by-the-hour underground carparks..
  201. # [17:24] <fangel> two sec..
  202. # [17:25] <fangel> iirc, the P with the ^ over it signifies that it is a covered parking space (that is, multistory or underground)
  203. # [17:26] <jgraham> Ah, interesting
  204. # [17:26] <fangel> and so you have to pay, and then they tend to have cctv..
  205. # [17:27] <jgraham> fangel: thanks
  206. # [17:28] <fangel> no problem..
  207. # [17:28] <fangel> long car journey, or what?
  208. # [17:29] <jgraham> Yeha
  209. # [17:29] <jgraham> *Yeah
  210. # [17:30] <gsnedders> jgraham: Why not take a ferry from somewhere like Newcastle to Goteberg?
  211. # [17:31] <jgraham> gsnedders: Harwich-Ejsberg (sp?) made the most sense
  212. # [17:31] <gsnedders> Ejsberg?
  213. # [17:31] <gsnedders> Esbjerg?
  214. # [17:31] * gsnedders is surprised that made the most sense
  215. # [17:33] <fangel> I've taken a return trip with the Harwich-Esbjerg ferry once upon a time..
  216. # [17:33] <fangel> where are you going from and too jgraham?
  217. # [17:33] <gsnedders> fangel: to Oslo
  218. # [17:34] <gsnedders> fangel: not sure quite where from
  219. # [17:34] <gsnedders> Not to Oslo
  220. # [17:34] * gsnedders is too tired
  221. # [17:34] <Philip`> Is there a way to do something like onhashchange that works in all current browsers?
  222. # [17:34] <gsnedders> fangel: to Linköping
  223. # [17:34] <gsnedders> (the other place where Opera has major offices)
  224. # [17:35] <fangel> ;)
  225. # [17:36] <fangel> it's a 5 hour drive from Copenhagen to Linköping..
  226. # [17:36] <fangel> and a 3 hour drive from Esbjerg to Copenhagen..
  227. # [17:37] <jgraham> Yeah, the ferry gets in at about 1pm so doing it all in a day is not possible but splitting it over two days is easy
  228. # [17:47] * Joins: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  229. # [17:51] <BenMillard> Philip`, either gets used for that in the wild (re: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081124#l-144)
  230. # [17:51] <BenMillard> Philip`, I prefer using <td> since it shouldn't act as a header for other cells
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  237. # [18:07] * niklaslandsberg is now known as nlg
  238. # [18:10] <nlg> Im writing a script to traverse a webpage to change all links. Is LXML enough for this task or would you recommend using html5lib as well?
  239. # [18:11] <gsnedders> nlg: There are issues with lxml's serializer, but it's parser works fine on most conforming pages
  240. # [18:12] <nlg> gsnedders: Is there a way to "cleanup" mallformed pages?
  241. # [18:12] <gsnedders> nlg: "cleanup" in what way
  242. # [18:12] <BenMillard> in these sense of HTML Tidy?
  243. # [18:12] <BenMillard> s/these/the/
  244. # [18:14] <gsnedders> (for xref and toc and the like of the spec lxml's parser and html5lib's serializer are used)
  245. # [18:14] <nlg> Hm, I´ll try the lxml. Thanks
  246. # [18:14] * Quits: nlg (n=niklasla@79.136.63.40) ("Lost terminal")
  247. # [18:18] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  248. # [18:19] <Philip`> Is there a term for something that's kind of like JSON but that totally ignores the standard, and just relies on Python repr and JS eval being compatible in typical cases?
  249. # [18:19] <Philip`> (Preferably some term more technical than "laziness")
  250. # [18:20] <gsnedders> :D
  251. # [18:20] <gsnedders> Philip`'s dream?
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  253. # [18:24] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  254. # [18:28] * gsnedders wonders what the hell to put on skills section of CV
  255. # [18:28] <jgraham> Philip`: PYON? It sounds catchy
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  257. # [18:40] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  258. # [18:40] <takkaria> and before now, I thought I'd seen some fairly bad bikeshedding
  259. # [18:41] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@cm-84.208.153.202.getinternet.no)
  260. # [18:43] <Philip`> jgraham: That sounds like a good name, particularly since it reminds me of Peon and hence of Warcraft
  261. # [18:43] <Philip`> As far as I can tell, it's quite like JSON except it uses single quotes instead of double quotes
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  264. # [18:57] <Dashiva> Philip`: Source code? :)
  265. # [19:00] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  266. # [19:07] <gsnedders> in CSS21, clear only applies to block-level elements, but is it conforming to be set on an inline element?
  267. # [19:08] <BenMillard> gsnedders, if it works then just do it. :)
  268. # [19:08] <gsnedders> BenMillard: When I'm writing a CV it probably would be better for it to be conforming :)
  269. # [19:09] <Dashiva> Just because it doesn't apply doesn't mean it isn't legal
  270. # [19:09] <gsnedders> Dashiva: That's my thought.
  271. # [19:10] * Philip` would hope potential employers would care about more substantial issues than how pedantically you wrote your CV's markup :-p
  272. # [19:10] <Dashiva> My CV uses only very basic CSS
  273. # [19:11] <Dashiva> left margin on body, bottom margin on dd :)
  274. # [19:12] <Dashiva> I did close optional tags, though, just in case the reader is a twit
  275. # [19:15] <BenMillard> gsnedders, there's a note here: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#propdef-clear
  276. # [19:16] * gsnedders spots an RFC2119 keyword inside an informative note
  277. # [19:16] * gsnedders implodes
  278. # [19:16] <BenMillard> "may" is present as well :)
  279. # [19:16] <BenMillard> have you searched www-style?
  280. # [19:16] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L921c.l.pppool.de)
  281. # [19:17] <hsivonen> what's the deal with wanting to use GET for ping?
  282. # [19:18] <Dashiva> As I recall, different interpretations of vague parts of the HTTP spec
  283. # [19:20] <Dashiva> JR in particular talked a lot about POST not being "safe"
  284. # [19:21] <hsivonen> I find if baffling that people working on HTTP suggest using GET for something that isn't idempotent
  285. # [19:21] <hsivonen> "safe" is a rathole
  286. # [19:21] <Dashiva> Well, that's what peopel tried to tell him
  287. # [19:21] <hsivonen> idempotent is a more tractable criterion
  288. # [19:21] <Dashiva> It starts here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Oct/0337.html
  289. # [19:23] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I've skimed through some search results but not found people discussing the conformance (only discussing what works versus what makes sense to specify): http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?keywords=%22clear+property%22&hdr-1-name=subject&hdr-1-query=&index-grp=Public__FULL&index-type=t&type-index=www-style
  290. # [19:24] <Dashiva> hsivonen: One of his arguments is that ping has side effects on two third parties, not on the user itself, so it's idempotent as far as that user is concerned
  291. # [19:25] <gsnedders> hit counters aren't idempotent, yet normally use GET
  292. # [19:25] <Dashiva> gsnedders: That's a bug in the world
  293. # [19:26] <BenMillard> gsnedders, so it might be worth you sending an e-mail to them, if you can't find an answer (now dinnertime for me)
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  296. # [19:36] <hsivonen> Dashiva: but idempotence from the user POV isn't what matters for HTTP working. It's idempotence from the POV of server and caches
  297. # [19:37] <Dashiva> Preaching to the choir :)
  298. # [19:38] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
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  304. # [20:24] <gsnedders> #a-phrase-or-paragraph-with-an-alternative-graphical-representation:-charts,-diagrams,-graphs,-maps,-illustrations
  305. # [20:24] <gsnedders> That @id is too long
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  313. # [21:03] <Philip`> gsnedders: You should trim all ids to the shortest unambiguous prefix
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  316. # [21:08] <gsnedders> Philip`: That makes them more liable to change, though
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  318. # [21:11] <Philip`> gsnedders: You should map each id onto a 64-bit prefix of its MD5
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  328. # [21:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: That makes them quite unguessable
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  331. # [22:14] <hsivonen> soo... in terms of content models, is there any case left where a container only takes embedded content?
  332. # [22:15] <hsivonen> did the concept of embedded content become irrelevent for content models?
  333. # [22:15] <Hixie> i believe so but i'm not sure. click on the definition of the term and see what refers to it
  334. # [22:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: can you think of any reason of keeping "embedded content" in the schema structure?
  335. # [22:16] <Hixie> not off-hand
  336. # [22:18] <gsnedders> Hixie: How about off-foot?
  337. # [22:18] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  338. # [22:19] <hsivonen> I guess I'll flatten it out then
  339. # [22:19] <hsivonen> this should fix the bug that showed up on anne's fronteers presentation
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  343. # [22:33] * hsivonen mumbles about ant builds sucking compared to letting Eclipse do its thing
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  347. # [22:41] <gsnedders> for fragments does @id or @name take precedence?
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  378. # Session Close: Tue Nov 25 00:00:00 2008

The end :)