/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-11-27 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Nov 27 00:00:00 2008
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <Hixie> somewhat waiting for someone to take it over or for julian to say he doesn't want it or to propose some other alternative first
# [00:03] <Hixie> we seem to be getting close to the point (or maybe past the point) where i need to respond to this <i>/<small> thread
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# [00:06] <KrocCamen> i/small? I use those, what’s going on with them?
# [00:07] <Hixie> nothing especially
# [00:07] <Hixie> but there's been a thread about them for some time now
# [00:07] <Hixie> which is starting to get very "meta"
# [00:08] <KrocCamen> I use i as a comment marker in code spans (so that in RSS readers it shows up as italics, but has no particular meaning in the HTML5 source). Small I use either inside a paragraph—as normal—but also as a paragraph iteself (since you can use other elements instead of P where they are better suited)
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# [00:15] <KrocCamen> How all the HTML4 elements and the new HTML5 sectioning elements are at the moment is just how I like it. My one and single miff is the removal of type on OL/UL. I need that for my site. I’ve no classes and my article text uses links to a footnote list - which are in alpha. Since the article text has to use the real letters to link to the footnote, it’s a structural thing, not merely a style.
# [00:17] <Hixie> css should support (and will support) substituting in the footnote number in the appropriate place
# [00:17] <sicking> Hixie, got a sec to talk about baseURIs and security contexts of |new Worker|?
# [00:17] <Hixie> sure
# [00:18] <Hixie> the spec says to use the origin of the worker's script, and limits the worker's script to same-origin of the creator
# [00:18] <Hixie> which makes it somewhat simple and allows us flexibility to extend it in future in different directions
# [00:18] <Hixie> depending on what authors want
# [00:18] <sicking> Hixie, so basically, the way that |new Worker| works is that it establishes a new security context for the new worker.
# [00:19] <Hixie> not sure what a "security context" is, but it does create a new scripting context, yes
# [00:19] <sicking> well, every page has a 'principal'. i.e. a something that we do all neccessary security checks against
# [00:20] <Hixie> i think the spec just uses the origin for that
# [00:20] <Hixie> but that's an implementation detail
# [00:20] <Hixie> continue
# [00:20] <sicking> when setting up a new worker that means that we have to set up a new principal
# [00:21] <sicking> another way to look at it is that it sets up a new browsing context i guess
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# [00:21] <sicking> this makes a lot of sense to me for shared workers, since aren't coupled with any one browsing context
# [00:22] <sicking> but i'm less sure that makes sense for a dedicated worker, which is pretty tightly coupled with a single 'normal' browsing context
# [00:24] <Hixie> the way the spec defines it side-steps this problem
# [00:24] <Hixie> iirc
# [00:24] <sicking> the end result is that you have to apply a same-origin restriction on |new Worker|
# [00:25] <sicking> and that uris are resolved agasint the uri of the worker, rather than the uri of the opening page
# [00:25] <Hixie> yes
# [00:25] <sicking> neither of which i'm sure are desireable for dedicated workers
# [00:26] <Hixie> oh we definitely want the base URI to be the base URI of the worker, otherwise the behavior of hte worker changes based on where it is called
# [00:26] <Hixie> but we invented lcoation.resolveURL() to address that
# [00:26] <sicking> that's what you have with <script> today though, and it doesn't seem to be a problem
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# [00:27] <Hixie> it's only not a problem because people have to write all their shared scripts using absolute URLs everywhere
# [00:27] <Hixie> otherwise they wouldn't work
# [00:28] <Hixie> anyway as mentioned earlier, the limit on same-origin workers is intentional. it lets us ship this, then work out what people want to do with non-same-origin dedicated workers -- have them run in their original origin, AC protected; have them run on the caller's origin, or something else
# [00:30] <sicking> well, that's definitely what we'll have to do as a consequence of workers running with the security context of their own uri
# [00:30] <sicking> if we didn't have do that we'd be in the same situation as <script> and .importScripts
# [00:31] <Hixie> <script> is a mess, we don't want to copy that :-)
# [00:31] <sicking> .importScripts copies that
# [00:31] <Hixie> copies what?
# [00:32] <Hixie> importScript does same-origin checks
# [00:32] <sicking> really?
# [00:32] <sicking> why?
# [00:32] <Hixie> yes, you complained about it once
# [00:32] <sicking> i thought it got changed
# [00:32] <Hixie> doesn't look like it
# [00:32] <sicking> ugh
# [00:32] <sicking> why do same-origin checks there?
# [00:32] <Hixie> did i respond to your complaint?
# [00:33] <sicking> yes, don't remember what you said though
# [00:33] <Hixie> me either
# [00:34] <sicking> so why have same-origin restrictions on importScripts?
# [00:34] * Hixie looks in the archives
# [00:35] <Hixie> my reply was:
# [00:35] <Hixie> I don't recall the precise reason, but I seem to recall concern over
# [00:35] <Hixie> specific attack vectors are what caused us to restrict this.
# [00:35] <Hixie> i guess we can change it
# [00:36] <sicking> it seems like behaving exactly like <script> won't cause any new attack vectors
# [00:36] <Hixie> well like i said, <script> is hardly what we want to be copying
# [00:37] <Hixie> are we not concerned about people faking a browsing context environment and then calling someone's cookie-protected JSON?
# [00:38] <sicking> sure, the same way that it can happen for <script>
# [00:38] <Hixie> don't we want to stop it for <script> too?
# [00:38] <Hixie> in due course?
# [00:38] <sicking> yeah, but that's never going to happen
# [00:38] <Hixie> seems bad to introduce new ways to do things we know are bad
# [00:39] <sicking> if we are going to drive it through for <script>, the extra amount of work involved in driving it through for .importScripts is probably smaller than can be measured
# [00:39] <Hixie> the well i checkedin the change
# [00:40] <sicking> cool
# [00:40] <sicking> so i'm still not convinced on |new Worker|
# [00:40] <sicking> but i know that me and aaron has different mental models there
# [00:41] <sicking> as in, is |new Worker| simply an out-of-thread <script>? Or is it more like an <iframe>
# [00:41] <Hixie> well right now the spec takes the conservative approach that is compatible with both mental models, allowing us to pick either one later, based on author feedback
# [00:41] <Hixie> which i think is probably a good approach for now
# [00:41] <sicking> well, once we set the baseURI we can't change that, so i suspect whatever we choose now we'll stick with forever
# [00:42] <Hixie> i don't see how it is dependent on baseURI
# [00:42] <sicking> i think the baseURI will go hand in hand with the security context
# [00:43] <Hixie> well in that case i definitely would want to do the model we hve now
# [00:43] <Hixie> that <script> has the document's baseURI is something we fixed with CSS and we should definitely fix it here too
# [00:43] <Hixie> relative URLs shouldn't change meaning based on who is using them
# [00:43] <Hixie> that's just wacky
# [00:43] <Hixie> based on who is referring to the document that contains them, i should say
# [00:44] <sicking> depends on what you are doing. Any time you pass a uri across baseURI borders you have pain
# [00:44] <sicking> since you can't use relative URIs any more
# [00:45] <sicking> so that means that you have pain any time you pass a URI through postMessage
# [00:46] <Hixie> that's why we added location.resolveURL()
# [00:47] <sicking> right, it doesn't change the fact that you have pain through
# [00:48] <sicking> resolving relative URIs is something developers aren't used to
# [00:48] <sicking> (since it has been largely impossible before)
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# [00:53] <Hixie> yeah, you're trading one pain for another
# [00:53] <Hixie> but one of them is predictable :-)
# [00:53] <sicking> the only time you have pain today is when you are fetching a resource relative to the script file
# [00:53] <sicking> (today == in windows)
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# [00:54] <sicking> but not when fetching resources relative to the document
# [00:54] <Hixie> right, and the only pain we're adding is when you're passing a relative url around
# [00:54] <sicking> not sure which is most common, but i'd imagine most data would live close to the document
# [00:55] <sicking> well, most uris are relative i'd think
# [00:55] <Hixie> i don't think most workers are going to involve passing urls around frankly
# [00:56] <sicking> any time you want to use XHR
# [00:56] <sicking> granted, that's going to be an extra common case in our impl since that is the only API we have avaialble (we won't have localStorage support in FF3.1)
# [00:56] <Hixie> nah, most of the time the script will be hard-coded to fetch particular files
# [00:57] <sicking> oh?
# [00:57] <Hixie> i'd expect so
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# [00:57] <Hixie> why would you put the logic in the main document and just offload the loading? it doesn't gain you anything
# [00:57] <Hixie> you could just as easily do the loading in the main document
# [00:57] <sicking> loading+processing
# [00:58] <sicking> the whole point with dedicated workers is that the processing is heavy
# [00:58] <sicking> so unless you have the data available inline in the main document you're probably going to want to fetch it using XHR
# [00:59] <Hixie> right but when do you do laoding and processing without knowing what you'll be loading?
# [00:59] <sicking> which of course you could do on the main thread and then pass it off to the worker
# [01:01] <sicking> a parsing/processing library wouldn't know what to parse/process until given the data
# [01:02] <sicking> the strongest argument that i can think of for using the securitycontext/baseURI of the script file is that that is what we'll have to do for shared workers
# [01:02] <Hixie> most of the time you'll be doing something like "fetch the contacts list and keep me updated as to progress" or stuff like that, as far as i can tell
# [01:03] <sicking> in a shared worker I agree
# [01:03] <sicking> but why would you do that in a dedicated worker?
# [01:03] <sicking> rather than just doing it on the main thread
# [01:04] <Hixie> so that you can use sync xhr, stuff like that
# [01:04] <sicking> "stuff like that"?
# [01:04] <Hixie> not yielding
# [01:04] <Hixie> workers are going to be mostly used just because they're hugely convenient instead of having to keep worrying about other scripts
# [01:05] <sicking> but if all you are doing is pulling down some light-weight file, you're going to have to jump through as many hoops to offload to a worker thread, as you would have to jump through using async XHR on the main thread
# [01:06] <Hixie> for the contacts case, i would imagine the worker would be refetching the file regularly, doing some pretty complex processing, and just posting change notifications over
# [01:06] <Hixie> that's a lot of work
# [01:09] <sicking> so the question is, is the script going to have the URI to pull data from built in? Or is it going to receive it from the document
# [01:10] <Hixie> i don't see why it wouldn't
# [01:10] <sicking> if you want to pull data from several sources then you wouldn't build it in
# [01:11] <sicking> or rather
# [01:12] <sicking> do you host a script centrally that can be used to process data from several locations, or do you host one script per uri that serves data
# [01:12] <Hixie> what are the cases where you'll be doing the same processing on a whole bunch of files whose urls you wouldn't hard code?
# [01:13] <sicking> if you have several uris all serving data in the same format
# [01:13] <sicking> to use your example:
# [01:13] <Hixie> yes, what case would that be?
# [01:15] <sicking> you have several URIs that serve JSON objects, one serving address book, one serving folder list, one serving inbox. And you want to be notified about changes in either of them
# [01:15] <sicking> or
# [01:15] <sicking> you have a library that can parse word documents and converts them to JSON objects being passed to the main thread
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# [01:15] <Hixie> wouldn't you have a worker for the address book, one for the folder list, one for the inbox, etc? they'd all be different, surely?
# [01:16] <Hixie> where are the word documents going to come from?
# [01:16] <Hixie> anyway, i agree that it's possible for urls to be a problem
# [01:16] <Hixie> i just don't see it being a common one
# [01:16] <Hixie> i don't think any of the examples i wrote ended up passing a url over the channel
# [01:17] <sicking> as soon as your code is generic enough that it can process data from several uris you'll run into this i'd think
# [01:17] <sicking> and having multiple uris serve the same data format seems not that weird to me
# [01:18] <sicking> i think the question really is, do you have one worker per data source, or do you have generic libraries for multiple data sources
# [01:19] <Hixie> i think the former will be more common, personally
# [01:19] <sicking> I don't know. Is that the case today?
# [01:20] <sicking> generally in the coding I do I separate data from code
# [01:20] <sicking> but i know the web often is less clean
# [01:22] <Hixie> basically at this point from my point of view here's where i stand:
# [01:23] <Hixie> i have feedback from credible people arguing it should be both ways
# [01:23] <Hixie> (you and aaron in particular)
# [01:23] <Hixie> making the baseURI be the worker's baseURI has three advantages:
# [01:23] <Hixie> - it's more resilient to reuse if there are relative urls in the source
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# [01:24] <Hixie> - it's more compatible with shared workers
# [01:24] <Hixie> - it's the "right" think according to web architecture principles
# [01:24] <Hixie> s/think/thing/
# [01:25] <Hixie> so for me there's a weak bias towards doing it the way we have now
# [01:25] <Hixie> i agree that it's not an especially strong argument
# [01:25] <Hixie> but i can't really justify doing it the other way around, as that is a (mildly) weaker position
# [01:27] <sicking> i think the middle one is the strongest argument there
# [01:27] <sicking> the first one can be countered by that it's less resilient if the URIs are passed in from postMessage
# [01:28] <sicking> and the third one only applies if the URI originates in the source, which we don't actually know since all we get is a string
# [01:28] <sicking> the shared worker argument i do buy though
# [01:30] <sicking> the only counter argument i have is that if we allow the baseURI (and security context) be that of the document, we can allow |new Worker| to load scripts cross site
# [01:31] <sicking> i.e. we could allow people to write generic crypto/parsing/processing/etc libraries that can be hosted on their site and allow cross-site linking
# [01:31] <sicking> however you can do that mostly using importScripts, you just need to host a thin wrapper on your own site
# [01:31] <Hixie> we could allow cross-site workers even without doing that, just have the workers run in the origin of the third-party host, and use AC to protect random scripts
# [01:31] <Hixie> or yeah, use importScripts() from a data: URL
# [01:32] <Hixie> new Worker("data:text/javascript,importScripts('http://example.com/shared.js')");
# [01:33] <sicking> ugh
# [01:33] <sicking> hmm.. we won't allow data: with the current patches...
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# [01:33] <sicking> that can be fixed of course
# [01:33] <sicking> just using AC is the wrong thing
# [01:34] <sicking> AC means that you can read the resources, not that you can execute script in its security context
# [01:34] <Hixie> ok actually data: won't work as currently specced
# [01:34] <Hixie> AC2 then :-)
# [01:34] <Hixie> we'll need to change AC a bit for <video> v2 anyway
# [01:37] <sicking> if we want to allow cross-site workers we'll probably need something very different i think
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# [01:39] * sicking is also very unhappy about the result of <video>
# [01:46] <Hixie> yeah me too
# [01:46] <Hixie> allowing cross-site video is dumb imho
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# [02:07] <Hixie> Lachy: fwiw, restarting NetAuthAgent on the connecting machine fixed my screen sharing
# [02:30] <Lachy> Hixie, ok
# [02:31] <BenMillard> krijnh, after noodling with your IRC Logs front page for a while, I've put some ideas here: http://projectcerbera.com/!dev/irc-logs/front
# [02:31] <BenMillard> (files it uses are listed here: http://projectcerbera.com/!dev/irc-logs/)
# [02:31] <Lachy> Hixie, re the <dialog> discussion, I think it would be a bad idea to keep both <dialog> and aria-role="dialog" when they mean different things
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# [02:32] <Lachy> and given that aria is being implemented, the best resolution would be to revisit that <dialog> naming debate :-(
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# [02:32] <Lachy> (or one of them should be dropped)
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# [02:36] <BenMillard> krijnh, I think Table + Link is my favourite listing for the front page (if you reply in this channel when I'm not here, I'll still see it in the logs)
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# [02:42] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah, something will likely have to change
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# [03:41] <Lachy> I updated the decriptions of the element categories in the authoring guide http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#categories
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# [03:50] <Hixie> can anyone find me a select widget on mac os x or windows default installs that is initially blank?
# [03:50] <Hixie> but where nothing is not a valid value?
# [03:50] <Hixie> trying to find precedent for the idea of <select required> with a non-valid initial value
# [03:52] <Lachy> I can't recall any. I think that practice may have only become widely used in web pages
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# [03:57] <sayrer> Hixie, pretty sure the OS X installation process has such things
# [03:58] <sayrer> maybe that's only text boxes, though
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# [08:25] <BenMillard> jgraham, here's the first section of that Wikipedia timeline in the Table Inspector: http://xrl.us/oyipv
# [08:30] <BenMillard> jgraham, I retrofitted <th> for header cells since that's what I remember it using first time I reviewed it. The actual table now uses <td> for header cells: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Ferrari_road_car_timeline_1960-2009
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# [08:31] <BenMillard> jgraham, note that the decade column headers get highlit correctly but the yearly column headers don't; in contrast even the most complicated row relationships are highlight perfectly. (Was discussed here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/thread.html#msg121)
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# [08:50] <krijnh> BenMillard: come back! ;p
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# [09:22] <yecril71> Philip`! The resistance against making the headers visible in IE7 is not about theoretical purity.
# [09:22] <yecril71> It is not theoretically pure to borrow the background from the following element.
# [09:23] <yecril71> I guess it is more about "pushing it to the limit".
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# [09:25] <yecril71> BenMillard! Thanks for the info about controls in VB6.
# [09:26] <yecril71> I still insist "control" is a misnomer because it cannot be used to control anything.
# [09:26] <yecril71> Think about a dashboard in an a�roplane.
# [09:27] <yecril71> There are controls and there are panes.
# [09:27] <yecril71> Panes are not controls.
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# [09:33] <yecril71> The title attribute has a problem that it cannot be declared as a rule.
# [09:34] <yecril71> You have to laboriously define it on every element where it applies.
# [09:34] <yecril71> Or use a script to do so.
# [09:35] <yecril71> I think CSS should take care of that sooner or later.
# [09:37] <yecril71> It is crazy to suggest that the closing tag could be optional if the opening tag has some attribute.
# [09:37] <yecril71> That would make the parser very hard to maintain.
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# [10:31] <hsivonen> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cform%20id%3Da%3Efoo%3C%2Fform%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.getElementsByTagName(%27form%27)[0].innerHTML%20%3D%20%22%3Cform%20id%3Db%3Ebar%3C%2Fform%3E%22%3B%3C%2Fscript%3E
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# [10:35] <yecril71> As of IE7, unknown run-time error.
# [10:36] <yecril71> And the FORM is in the HEAD and contains the BODY.
# [10:38] <hsivonen> the result in IE8 is interesting
# [10:39] <hsivonen> adding a <body> tag helps to see what I actually meant to test
# [10:40] <hsivonen> so http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%3E%3Cform%20id%3Da%3Efoo%3C%2Fform%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.getElementsByTagName('form')%5B0%5D.innerHTML%20%3D%20%22%3Cform%20id%3Db%3Ebar%3C%2Fform%3E%22%3B%3C%2Fscript%3E
# [10:40] <yecril71> Unknown run-time error.
# [10:41] <hsivonen> yeah, that happens in IE8, too
# [10:44] <yecril71> What happens if you appendChild instead?
# [10:45] <yecril71> The text
# [10:45] <yecril71> corresponds to E_FAIL.
# [10:45] <hsivonen> I haven't tried
# [10:45] <yecril71> This is how mshtml responds to someone trying to torture it.
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# [10:53] <yecril71> I can see no reason why the command elements should be hidden from the viewer and accessible from the keyboard only.
# [10:53] <yecril71> This is extremely user-unfriendly.
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# [11:06] <hsivonen> does someone already have a mutation event console similar to Hixie's DOM viewer?
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# [11:15] <Lachy> hsivonen, would that be a console that logs all DOM3 mutation events like DOMNodeInserted, DOMAttrModified, etc?
# [11:17] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
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# [11:35] <Lachy> I'm writing a blog entry about input type=search and placeholder. See draft: http://blog.whatwg.org/?p=371&preview=true
# [11:35] <Lachy> Are there any other advantages it has only type=text, which I haven't mentioned?
# [11:36] <Lachy> (only blog admins will be able to see that)
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# [11:51] * hsivonen notes that Mark Birbeck's slides from a Google Tech Talk on RDFa don't show namespace declaration or CURIE prefixes
# [11:51] <hsivonen> hmm. those are the same slides as the 20/20 slides from XTech
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# [12:22] <zcorpan__> hsivonen: http://livedom.validator.nu/?%3Cs%20o%3D%26%20t doesn't give what i expected
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# [12:25] <hsivonen> zcorpan__: what did you expect?
# [12:25] <hsivonen> ooh. the t appears in two places
# [12:25] <hsivonen> that's ... interesting
# [12:26] * zcorpan__ is now known as zcorpan
# [12:26] <zcorpan> yeah :)
# [12:26] <zcorpan> html5lib gives what i expected
# [12:27] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
# [12:27] <hsivonen> bug filed http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=338
# [12:33] <tthorsen> speaking of html5lib - I noticed that it handles the following markup differently from the html5 spec: <option><select>text
# [12:34] <zcorpan> tthorsen: <option> handling was changed in the spec to work with <datalist>
# [12:34] <tthorsen> the html5 spec thinks <option>'s in "in body" is ok, whereas html5lib thinks it's an error
# [12:35] <tthorsen> sure. In the implementation I'm working on, I'm doing what the spec says.
# [12:35] <tthorsen> does someone maintain html5lib?
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# [12:35] <zcorpan> tthorsen: hsivonen's html parser is more in line with the spec than html5lib, i think
# [12:37] <tthorsen> zcorpan: is that the validator.nu page?
# [12:38] <zcorpan> tthorsen: yeah
# [12:38] <zcorpan> http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/
# [12:38] <Philip`> tthorsen: html5lib isn't maintained to match the spec at all times - usually it just slowly diverges as the spec changes, and then someone nice comes along and fixes it all
# [12:38] <hsivonen> also, the trunk of the Validator.nu parser and livedom.validator.nu are out of sync (which sucks but I've been busy)
# [12:39] <Philip`> which might take many months
# [12:43] <tthorsen> I see. The livedom.validator.nu does <option><select> correctly, but validator.nu complains that the <option> is an error
# [12:45] <zcorpan> seems about right
# [12:45] <tthorsen> hsivonen: livedom.validator.nu does not do <option><optgroup><select> correctly, though. I believe it should close the open <option> when it receives the <optgroup> start tag
# [12:45] <tthorsen> I think the result should be <option></option><optgroup><select>
# [12:51] <hsivonen> let's see if my GWT build still runs...
# [12:58] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Nov/0054.html - I wonder how we could get the HTML WG to work more with the WHATWG and avoid such hostility from some people, without forcing everyone to subscribe to both lists or merging them into one (neither of which are reasonable options)
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# [13:01] <Philip`> We could cross-post everything
# [13:02] <Philip`> or subscribe public-html onto the whatwg list
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# [13:19] <zcorpan> "we could ask the HTML WG to change the spelling of the element to DIALOUGUE" -- that's why it shouldn't be spelt 'dialogue'
# [13:22] <zcorpan> i think we should spell it "dl" :)
# [13:28] <Philip`> <collquy> would be much better
# [13:28] <Philip`> Uh
# [13:28] <Philip`> <colloquy>
# [13:30] * hsivonen agrees with spelling it dl
# [13:31] <tthorsen> Seems both dialogue and dialog is used in the html5 spec. Same goes for color vs colour. Is that what this is about?
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# [13:35] <hsivonen> the syntax of computer languages should use en-US, so dialogue shouldn't even be on the table
# [13:36] * krijnh votes for <dl class="notdefinitionlistbutthatotherone">
# [13:38] <tthorsen> I like dialog better than dl, simply because dialog is a lot more greppable. Searching for the string "dl" in the spec or in an html file does not sound like fun.
# [13:39] <hsivonen> in an HTML file, you can grep for "<dl"
# [13:39] <tthorsen> I don't care very strongly about this, though...
# [13:41] <tthorsen> hsivonen: true. Is getElementsByTagName('dl') a legal thing to do?
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# [13:58] <Lachy> JohnResig, yt?
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# [14:08] <Lachy> hsivonen, are you sure dialogue isn't used in US english at all?
# [14:09] <hsivonen> Lachy: hmm. I guess dialogue is allowed in en-US for the conversation sense
# [14:10] <hsivonen> Lachy: but it's a really bad idea to rely on locale-specific distinctions in spelling for disambiguation
# [14:10] <Lachy> I generally spell it dialogue when referring to conversation and dialog when referring to a computer dialog box
# [14:11] <Lachy> yeah, that's true
# [14:12] * hsivonen tries to lobby for a UTF-8-only policy for Ogg text tracks
# [14:13] <Lachy> hsivonen, on which mailing list?
# [14:13] * Lachy agrees that's a good idea
# [14:13] <MikeSmith> Lachy: yeah, I think US English does uses both dialog and dialogue
# [14:13] <hsivonen> Lachy: accessibility at xiph
# [14:14] <Lachy> http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/accessibility/2008-November/000175.html
# [14:15] <Lachy> hsivonen, are you sure it's true that all character sets can be mapped to Unicode? Someone told me at TPAC that there were some known issues with mapping Shift-JIS to unicode for some characters, IIRC
# [14:17] <MikeSmith> I think there are some obscure person-name characters in Shift-JIS that are not in Unicode
# [14:17] <MikeSmith> variants for people's names
# [14:17] <Lachy> that same person also tried to tell me that there were plans to develop a new Unicode-encoding optimised more for asian languages, as an alternative to UTF-8 and -16
# [14:17] <hsivonen> Lachy: IIRC, there has been some wobbliness in the mapping from Shift_JIS to Unicode, but Real Software(tm) uses UTF-8 or UTF-16 in RAM anyway, so there's no way to do Shift_JIS without coercing it to Unicode somehow.
# [14:17] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Those people should just change their names, to save us all the bother
# [14:17] <MikeSmith> heh
# [14:17] <Lachy> heh
# [14:18] <Lachy> all the asian people I know seem to have an ASCII representation of their names anyway, so they should just use that
# [14:18] <hsivonen> well, then there's ARMSCII, which, IIRC, contains one character that you'd need to map to PUA
# [14:18] <hsivonen> just like you need to map the Apple logo from MacRoman onto PUA
# [14:19] <MikeSmith> banks and government in Japan have to support whatever family-name characters people use, even if very rare. this is one reason for anti-Unicode sentiment in Japan
# [14:19] <Lachy> ok, that makes sense
# [14:19] <hsivonen> I'd be seriously unhappy if my parents had tried to be creative beyound the limits of Unicode
# [14:19] <Lachy> so why doesn't Unicode just add the missing characters?
# [14:20] <hsivonen> Lachy: you can make up Kanji
# [14:20] <Lachy> wtf?
# [14:20] <hsivonen> Lachy: so any the whole concept of a coded character set is culturally insensitive
# [14:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: it's not their personal names, but the "spelling" of the family name. i.e. names that have been in use and written that way for many generations
# [14:21] <Lachy> hsivonen, without some sort of coded character set, how is it possible to represent Kanji in any encoding?
# [14:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so how does the government store the names digitally?
# [14:21] <Lachy> they could do it as bitmap images
# [14:21] <hsivonen> Lachy: you'd have to give bit representations to strokes
# [14:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I dunno the details. I should read up on it more and find out
# [14:22] <hsivonen> Lachy: as opposed to giving bits to a block of Kanji
# [14:22] <MikeSmith> I'm sure myakura knows better than I do
# [14:22] <Lachy> ok. So in a sense, each stroke would be somewhat like a combining char
# [14:22] <Philip`> Unicode could include characters like COMBINING BLACK PIXEL AT 2,7 and you could build bitmaps out of that
# [14:24] * hsivonen is quite happy to use a foreign an alphabet that was not invented in Finland and whose rendering has been adjusted to technology many times
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# [14:25] * myakura doesn't really know the details re the name-storing :(
# [14:26] <Dashiva> You have Mojikyo, which stores glyphs rather than code points (as I understand it)
# [14:27] <hsivonen> Dashiva: as vector graphics?
# [14:28] <Dashiva> Don't know what type of font it is
# [14:28] <hsivonen> how does one do a vanity search on Google for a name that's not "text" as far as computers are concerned?
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# [14:36] * hsivonen wonders if by "spelling" MikeSmith meant the kind of glyph variation that Unicode has deemed as being a stylistic font thing and not part of the essence of the abstract character
# [14:38] <Dashiva> I found this page helpful: http://www.jbrowse.com/text/unij.html
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# [14:40] <Dashiva> Last section of "personal names" seems relevant
# [14:41] <hsivonen> For the last 5 years, I've been wondering what the character reportoire and the length limits for legal names in Finland are, but I haven't been able to find out
# [14:42] <hsivonen> however, I gather that in Finland, the legal name doesn't encode case and you are just assumed to capitalize the first letter of each token
# [14:42] <hsivonen> the number of tokens is limited by law
# [14:44] <hsivonen> also, I've so far discovered that a person who gets a Finnish citizenship and whose previous official name was in Russian gets the Latin name algorithmically without discretion
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# [14:51] <Lachy> "In 1969, the JIS C 6220 standard was created, [...] The 'C' in the name refers to electronics; the standard was later renamed to JIS X 0201, where 'X' refers to information technology." - I wonder how anyone came up with using a C to stand for "electronics" and an X for IT?!
# [14:52] <Lachy> unless C really refers to computers, not electronics
# [14:53] <Philip`> Lachy: Maybe electronics was the third category they chose to deal with
# [14:55] <MikeSmith> btw, the problem characters in Japanese are called "gaiji"
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# [15:01] <Dashiva> Oh, so beer break isn't good enough for him anymore
# [15:01] <Lachy> that article gives me the impression that the problems were created by the Japanese own inability to create a single coherent character set, and that their anger towards Unicode is misguided, since Unicode was forced to inherit the problems of pre-existing Japanese encodings
# [15:02] <Dashiva> That doesn't cover han unification
# [15:04] * Disconnected
# [15:04] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
# [15:04] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
# [15:04] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [15:04] * Set by Hixie on Thu Oct 23 14:38:15
# [15:04] <hsivonen> Dashiva: as far as Han Unification goes, Japan has the most market power of the countries affected, so why is using Japanese-oriented fonts an issue?
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# [15:05] <hsivonen> an issue in Japan that is
# [15:07] <hsivonen> I mean, it doesn't bother my digital typography that some retro newspapers in Germany like to use fraktur fonts for our shared character reportoire
# [15:07] <Dashiva> hsivonen: And how many years until China overtakes Japan?
# [15:09] <hsivonen> Dashiva: is the crux of the matter really a pro-active fear of Chinese typography spilling over as the PRC's economic status changes?
# [15:09] <Dashiva> It also introduces opportunities for hilarity (or not) where a 3rd party who doesn't speak the language uses the wrong font on an otherwise okay document
# [15:12] <hsivonen> I guess my views on these issues are affected by my native language always having used imported fonts and the choice of my name being motivated by compatibility rather than by unusualness
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# [15:30] <annevk3> how do I make 8.04 update to 8.10?
# [15:32] <Philip`> annevk3: Have you tried http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/upgrading ?
# [15:36] <takkaria> update-manager -d I think
# [15:38] <annevk3> thanks, didn't know 8.04 changed my settings
# [15:38] <Lachy> Hixie, gsnedders, there seems to be a bug with anolis. Section "4.10.4.1.2 Text state and Search state" is listed in the TOC as "4.10.4.1.2 Text state and"
# [15:38] * takkaria is finding 8.10 buggy as hell, though, so doesnt' recommend upgrading
# [15:38] <annevk3> ok, cancelled
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# [15:41] <mpt> takkaria, what in particular?
# [15:42] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de)
# [15:43] * Philip` finds it much easier to let old servers succumb to entropy than to upgrade them
# [15:44] <Philip`> (I have a Solaris box which I don't think has been updated in about six years, since I don't even know how to update software on it)
# [15:44] <Philip`> (and if I did update anything, I don't have any way to test that it hasn't broken lots of things that run on the server :-( )
# [15:44] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e180228045.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.83-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
# [15:45] <Dashiva> And that's why we still have so many apache 1.3 installations too, I bet :)
# [15:46] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-af856d00d302fa28) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [15:47] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@pool-71-167-7-222.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
# [15:47] <Philip`> "Apache/1.3.28"
# [15:48] * Joins: zcorpan__ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-84.bredband.comhem.se)
# [15:49] <zcorpan__> hsivonen: you could make the <input> attribute list more useful by scraping the type states in the spec and removing attributes from the list that don't apply to the state
# [15:49] * zcorpan__ is now known as zcorpan
# [15:49] <zcorpan> hsivonen: in the bookkeeping div
# [15:51] <zcorpan> hsivonen: first paragraph of each such div, links whose href starts with #attr-
# [15:52] <zcorpan> hsivonen: and then you'd say, "Element-specific attributes for element input in the Image state:"
# [15:52] * zcorpan files a bug
# [15:58] <zcorpan> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=339
# [15:58] <takkaria> mpt: wireless works intermittently, NetworkManager plays up a fair bit, and since the upgrade, I tend to get "No protocol specified" messages to the console when starting X apps
# [15:59] <mpt> takkaria, wireless problems are highly driver-dependent, so problems you have will be unrelated to any annevk3 has unless you use the same wireless card
# [16:04] <Philip`> mpt: But driver-dependent problems still demonstrate that upgrades can break things that used to work, so if you have something that currently works then it's probably safer to not upgrade
# [16:08] <mpt> That conclusion may be correct, but the logic is not. :-)
# [16:09] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@dslb-088-075-193-130.pools.arcor-ip.net)
# [16:15] <Philip`> mpt: The logic is that takkaria's evidence proves 8.10 is not strictly better than 8.04 in all cases and that in some cases it is worse, and annevk3 doesn't know in advance which of the cases will affect him, so there is a non-zero risk that upgrading will make things worse, so it is perfectly logical to recommend against upgrading given the evidence :-)
# [16:16] <mpt> But if that was true no-one with a working system would ever upgrade
# [16:18] <annevk3> s/would/should/ :)
# [16:19] <annevk3> takkaria, do you have a lenovo/thinkpad?
# [16:20] <takkaria> no, I'm using an asus
# [16:22] <wilhelm> I haven't upgraded my Thinkpad yet either.
# [16:24] <Philip`> mpt: People would still upgrade their perfectly-working systems to an entirely unknown new version, because people are irrational :-)
# [16:25] <mpt> We have this live CD thingy, so you can try out the new version and make sure it works.
# [16:25] * Philip` likes Gentoo because upgrades are continuous and so they tend to break one thing at a time
# [16:26] <Philip`> (I suppose it's partly a downside that they tend to break one thing, but it's an upside that they tend to not break multiple independent things)
# [16:27] <Philip`> (Anyway, mostly I just like the colours in Gentoo's package manager)
# [16:28] <wilhelm> Do anyone here know about any statistics on how people spend their time online?
# [16:29] <wilhelm> (How time is distributed between various types of sites.)
# [16:29] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@c-98-230-27-112.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
# [16:30] <zcorpan> wilhelm: do you actually just want to know how much porn people watch?
# [16:30] <mpt> wilhelm, <http://www.pewinternet.org/reports.asp> might have something in that vein
# [16:30] <wilhelm> zcorpan: Yes. “All sites must work”. (c;
# [16:31] <wilhelm> mpt: Thanks.
# [16:31] <erlehmann> Porn is the driving force of media technology - so unless we have creative commons licensed porn in <video> elements, standards aren't there
# [16:31] <mpt> particularly <http://www.pewinternet.org/PPF/r/213/report_display.asp>
# [16:32] <annevk3> I met someone today at a university in Germany who has studied user behavior on the Web: http://www.l3s.de/~herder/thesis/index.php
# [16:33] <wilhelm> Thanks.
# [16:35] <Philip`> erlehmann: If that was the case, how come Youtube is the most popular video sharing site?
# [16:37] <Philip`> Woah, Alexa has a downloadable list of its top million sites
# [16:37] <erlehmann> Philip`: "youtube" isn't a technology ?
# [16:38] * Philip` downloads the list
# [16:38] <Philip`> That could be quite useful for people surveying popular sites
# [16:40] <Dashiva> I wonder how much of the list is significant, with regard to how many people use alexa
# [16:40] <Philip`> erlehmann: It's an application of a particular media technology, and seems to indicate that web-based Flash video is being driven by family-friendly items like music videos and illegal TV clips and cats
# [16:41] <Philip`> Dashiva: What do you mean by "significant"?
# [16:42] <Dashiva> Philip`: Statistically
# [16:42] <Philip`> (Alexa says "Generally, traffic rankings of 100,000 and above should be regarded as not reliable")
# [16:42] <Dashiva> Ah, so they cover that
# [16:43] <Philip`> Dashiva: What do you mean by "statistically significant"? :-)
# [16:44] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [16:44] <Philip`> Nobody would assume they mean "there is a 95% statistical chance that tailedfox.com is ranked 12345", because that'd be silly
# [16:45] <Philip`> or that the site ranked 12345 is more popular than the site ranked 12346
# [16:45] <Philip`> so I guess the question is what you want to measure and to determine the significance of
# [16:46] <Dashiva> But you could say something like "there's a 95% chance that tailedfox.com is within ranks [6172, 24690]"
# [16:47] <Philip`> That would be useful to know
# [16:47] <annevk3> http://twitter.com/banderson623/statuses/1022729083
# [16:48] * Philip` appreciates how the data is in CSV format, like "95012,whatwg.org", instead of dmoz's RDF
# [16:48] <Philip`> 1844,w3.org
# [16:48] <Philip`> 1845,biblegateway.com
# [16:48] <Philip`> The W3C is more popular than the bible!
# [16:48] <Philip`> but less popular than a Zimbabwean bank
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# [16:49] <Philip`> Oh, sorry, I'm being ignorant
# [16:49] <Philip`> The W3C is less popular than a South African bank
# [16:52] <jgraham> annevk3: A HTML5 book would be great
# [16:52] <zcorpan> hey jgraham
# [16:52] <jgraham> hey
# [16:52] <zcorpan> you're starting on monday right?
# [16:52] <jgraham> Right
# [16:53] * jgraham just finished his thesis viva :)
# [16:53] <wilhelm> Welcome aboard. (c;
# [16:53] * Joins: xcombelle (n=chatzill@AToulouse-158-1-102-113.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr)
# [16:53] <zcorpan> you'll probably sit next to me and i'll be your contact person or whatever it's called
# [16:53] <jgraham> awesome
# [16:53] <jgraham> wilhelm: Thanks :)
# [16:54] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-6dca199e33eff919)
# [16:54] <zcorpan> i'm supposed to give you things to do but i have no idea -- maybe you can read my email :)
# [16:54] <Philip`> Is Opera engorging on more WHATWG people?
# [16:55] <annevk3> we'd happily accept you :)
# [16:56] <Philip`> I already have plenty to work on for the next two years :-)
# [16:56] * jgraham often wonders how Philip` has any time to do his PhD
# [16:57] * gsnedders still needs to apply for work next summer
# [16:57] <Philip`> jgraham: I thought the idea was that you could be lazy and not do any work for the first year
# [16:57] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
# [16:57] <jgraham> Philip`: Don't ask me, I'm not really sure that I achieved anything in four years, but my examiners seemed to like it
# [16:58] <gsnedders> w00t!
# [16:58] <gsnedders> Unconditional for Edinburgh
# [16:58] <Philip`> The government keeps giving me money regardless of what I spend my time doing
# [16:58] <jgraham> gsnedders: Cool
# [16:59] <gsnedders> There again, the course I'm applying for has the normal Scottish entrance requirements (BBBB at Higher, which historically was the requirements for pretty much every course in Scotland), and has very few applicants
# [16:59] <gsnedders> Normally all applicants got offers, and I exceed the entrance requirements, so there was little question.
# [16:59] <jgraham> gsnedders: Is this computational physics or something?
# [17:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: yeah
# [17:01] <gsnedders> http://www.sra.ed.ac.uk/admissions/Statistics/2007-08_entry/Programme2007/degree_programme_public_version/37.htm
# [17:02] <Philip`> Isn't the LHC going to solve physics, so you wouldn't have anything to work on after graduating?
# [17:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: No, it's going to disprove physics.
# [17:02] <jgraham> Philip`: If only
# [17:02] <Philip`> I suppose you could sabotage the LHC
# [17:02] <Philip`> or maybe you already did
# [17:03] <gsnedders> (1 to 5 applicants for the BSc course, 9 applicants for the MPhys course; same number of offers, 1 to 5 people start each course)
# [17:04] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp195.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [17:06] * takkaria is applying for a summer internship at Opera
# [17:07] <Philip`> You're not doing much to dispel the WHATWG browser conspiracy notions :-(
# [17:07] <annevk3> takkaria, cool, ping one of us if your application got stuck somehow
# [17:07] <wilhelm> takkaria: Cool. For what kind of position? Developer or QA?
# [17:07] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
# [17:08] * Philip` wonders if Opera pays lots of money compared to other places he could look for jobs :-)
# [17:08] * jgraham wonders if he is supposed to unsubscribe from public-html or something
# [17:08] <takkaria> annevk3: I've not written the covering letter yet, but will be putting it all through next week sometime
# [17:08] <annevk3> kk
# [17:09] * gsnedders ought to apply for a summer internship at Opera too
# [17:09] <annevk3> jgraham, you should e-mail chaals@opera.com and arrange it with him
# [17:09] <gsnedders> even though technically he won't be enrolled in a uni course till mid-August
# [17:09] <annevk3> jgraham, just wait for him to get back to you
# [17:09] <takkaria> wilhelm: I'd be happy doing QA, though development work out be fun
# [17:09] * gsnedders doesn't have the 1337 hacking skills to do development
# [17:10] <wilhelm> gsnedders: Doesn't matter. I didn't pass any of the formal requirements.
# [17:10] <gsnedders> wilhelm: Including the English bit?
# [17:10] * gsnedders still needs to finish writing CV
# [17:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: congrats on the new job. Where will you be located?
# [17:10] <takkaria> jgraham: what was your thesis on?
# [17:11] <wilhelm> gsnedders: No. But I have no education, so HR discarded my application. “Unqualified”.
# [17:11] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks. I'm in Linkoping with zcorpan
# [17:11] <gsnedders> wilhelm: Then how did you get the place?
# [17:11] <wilhelm> The hiring procedures have, uhm, changed since then. (c:
# [17:11] <jgraham> takkaria: "Heating and Transport Processes in the Intracluster Medium" is what it says on the cover
# [17:12] <Philip`> jgraham: Sounds like fun
# [17:12] * gsnedders expects that has helped takkaria less than he was expecting
# [17:12] <takkaria> actually, I was expecting something entirely opaque, since all the thesis titles I've ever heard are pretty opaque to me :)
# [17:13] <wilhelm> gsnedders: My application was recommended by an employee, and my manager followed up on in despite HR's decision. Now I've been here for four years.
# [17:14] <gsnedders> hmm. <http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/list/?dept=summer_interns&location=all> and <http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/internship/> are different
# [17:14] <gsnedders> ah, the latter one seems to be for summer '08 on the face of it
# [17:15] <wilhelm> Indeed. They might have messed something up during the recent upgrade.
# [17:15] <gsnedders> http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/opening/211/ is what I want?
# [17:16] * hsivonen is a bit concerned that googling for mutation event test cases doesn't find a test suite from the usual suspects on the first page of results
# [17:16] <wilhelm> gsnedders: Yeah, either should work fine. They all end up in the same system.
# [17:18] * gsnedders knows he will be enrolled in _some_ uni course next year
# [17:18] <gsnedders> I have an unconditional offer for Edinburgh, as I said, so if nothing else I should be going there :P
# [17:19] <gsnedders> Does the transcript of grades need to be a formal copy of them?
# [17:24] <jgraham> gsnedders: Dunno
# [17:26] <gsnedders> wilhelm: have any clue? know how I could find out?
# [17:27] <wilhelm> I think so.
# [17:27] * gsnedders wonders how he can get a copy
# [17:28] <gsnedders> What's an example of something which ends up with a different parent, which makes SAX impossible?
# [17:32] <Philip`> gsnedders: You mean like <table>foo ?
# [17:32] <gsnedders> Philip`: Ah, just stuff like that does? Nothing more complex?
# [17:32] <Philip`> You could make it more complex if you want :-)
# [17:32] <takkaria> hmm, I wonder my certificates are for my transcripts
# [17:34] <Philip`> gsnedders: It doesn't make SAX impossible - it just makes it impossible to do it without buffering an unbounded number of elements before emitting anything
# [17:35] <Philip`> gsnedders: (Also, the ability to write <html foo=bar> anywhere in the document (which will add that attribute to the root <html> element) makes it impossible to output any SAX events at all, until you've reached EOF)
# [17:36] <zcorpan> unless you abort
# [17:38] <Philip`> True, though I prefer the pro-life stance towards HTML parsers
# [17:40] <annevk3> or unless you also keep a tree around and let SAX patch it
# [17:41] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p4200-ipbf2306marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
# [17:41] <Philip`> I don't think SAX has any events for tree-patching, so either it's not SAX or it's not streaming
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# [17:42] <Philip`> (depending on which side of the SAX interface you do the tree stuff on)
# [17:42] <BenMillard> krijnh, I'm back. :)
# [17:43] <annevk3> Philip`, I see, fair enough
# [17:46] <krijn> BenMillard: hi :)
# [17:46] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [17:46] <krijn> Your stylesheet links to http://ben.local/!dev/irc-logs/screen.css
# [17:46] <BenMillard> krijn, you saw my ideas then?
# [17:46] <krijn> Yeah, neat
# [17:46] <BenMillard> d'oh, let me fix that
# [17:47] <BenMillard> (it's because I have a <base>)
# [17:47] <krijn> Yeah, saw that
# [17:49] <BenMillard> stylesheet <link> fixed
# [17:50] <krijn> It needs some rounded corners :)
# [17:50] <BenMillard> hah, maybe!
# [17:51] <BenMillard> keeping it non-graphical is more faithful to the service you currently provide, although you can take as much or as little from this idea as you like
# [17:51] <BenMillard> I tried applying the WHATWG spec colours to it
# [17:52] <krijn> Table + Link is your favourite?
# [17:52] <krijn> Which one is that? :)
# [17:53] <krijn> Ah, whatwg-table-link
# [17:53] <BenMillard> you can hover over the channel name at the top of each colour to get a title tooltip
# [17:54] <BenMillard> I chose 8 days for the table so you can see "this time last week"
# [17:54] <krijn> Easy for the Last week in HTML author :)
# [17:55] <BenMillard> yeah, it seemed like a reasonable use-case :P
# [17:55] <krijn> We should ask Hixie for approval first, of course :)
# [17:56] * krijn tries to get mentioned on Last Week
# [17:56] <krijn> Anyways
# [17:56] <BenMillard> heh, there's no mad rush...we could let people review it and suggest further tweaks and so forth
# [17:56] <krijn> I'll update it tomorrow
# [17:57] <BenMillard> wow!
# [17:57] <BenMillard> another change, I moved the search box to the top-right as that's common on big sites
# [17:57] <Philip`> I don't like the table having left-aligned headings for right-aligned columns
# [17:57] <krijn> Yeh
# [17:57] <krijn> Philip`: try a user stylesheet :+
# [17:58] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@cm-84.208.153.202.getinternet.no)
# [17:58] <BenMillard> I'll change it, see what peeps think
# [17:58] <krijn> Also, I'm getting faster internet in a month or something, so the logs will be a bit snappier
# [17:58] <jgraham> BenMillard: BTW, I will change the table inspector UI at some point
# [17:59] <BenMillard> jgraham, cool!
# [17:59] <BenMillard> krijn, that's a point: by having a single link to the archives instead of the long list, maybe it would be a bit faster to generate and the markup would be lighter weight
# [17:59] <BenMillard> I know the table for 8 days is less markup than the current list for 5 days, due to the repetitive title attributes being replaced by <th>
# [17:59] <jgraham> If you have an idea for a design that demphasises the legacy algorithms that would be cool
# [18:00] <jgraham> BenMillard: ^^^
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# [18:00] <BenMillard> jgraham, we could reverse the order of that list? that's about all I can think of :)
# [18:00] <krijn> BenMillard: hiding the referrers also speeds it upt
# [18:00] <krijn> *up
# [18:00] <Philip`> krijn: Maybe you could host (or mirror or something) the files on somewhere like html5.org, if internet speed is an issue?
# [18:00] <krijn> It's no issue for me
# [18:01] <krijn> I hardly have time to read the logs myself :(
# [18:01] <BenMillard> krijn, yeah I couldn't think why the referrers would be useful to anyone so I just scrapped them :P
# [18:01] <Philip`> I like the referrers, they're useful for spying on people
# [18:02] <BenMillard> perhaps a single link to a page which lists them would be a good comprimise? that way, they won't slow down the front page but will still be available for weirdos like Philip`?
# [18:03] <krijn> They do slow down the homepage anyway
# [18:03] <krijn> I think..
# [18:03] <zcorpan> like http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/?gimme-a-hobby ?
# [18:04] <krijn> Lightning fast hooray \o/
# [18:04] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
# [18:05] <zcorpan> you should have an ajaxy button next to the tagline
# [18:05] <zcorpan> to get the next tagline
# [18:05] <annevk3> "While We All Agree Flash Is Still A Superior Technology ;)" :p
# [18:05] <krijn> Perhaps it's not that smart to read 2500 filenames and sort them on each request :)
# [18:05] <Philip`> Is there a list of all of them?
# [18:05] <krijn> Nah
# [18:06] <krijn> Lachy did some grepping
# [18:06] <jgraham> BenMillard: Maybe a "Show legacy algorithms" checkbox that is deselected by default?
# [18:07] * jgraham is maybe overcopmplicating things
# [18:07] <BenMillard> jgraham, sounds like deprecation vs. obsoletion to me :)
# [18:07] <BenMillard> if they are good enough to keep in the project, I say you might as well keep listing them normally
# [18:07] <BenMillard> (but it's your tool, you can do what you like with it)
# [18:09] <zcorpan> jgraham: you could use the preferred algorithm by default and hide all the others under a "more options"
# [18:09] <BenMillard> jgraham & zcorpan, here's the UI with the preferred algorithms listed first: http://projectcerbera.com/!dev/table-inspector/new
# [18:10] <jgraham> zcorpan: The problem is that youw want HTML5 (Nov 2008) and Smartheaders to be easilly accessible whereas HTML 5 (Sept 2007) is just a distraction
# [18:10] <BenMillard> I guess a cheap trick would be to set size="2" so only HTML5 and Smart Headers are shown without scrolling?
# [18:10] <jgraham> BenMillard: Cheap tricks are, at least, cheap
# [18:10] <BenMillard> OK, take a look now
# [18:11] <BenMillard> this seems quite a neat way to do it, actually
# [18:11] <zcorpan> why do you want to hide the others?
# [18:12] <BenMillard> the older ones aren't really contenders in the what-gets-into-HTML5 race
# [18:12] <jgraham> zcorpan: How useful is it to know what the old broken version of the HTML5 spec did?
# [18:12] <zcorpan> jgraham: so remove it from the UI altogether
# [18:12] <jgraham> zcorpan: Maybe that is the best idea
# [18:13] <zcorpan> size=2 just gives a worse overview of which algorithms are available
# [18:13] <BenMillard> I thought the older algorithms may be of interest to accessibility professionals, particularly HTML4 and "experimental", to compare them to the modern ones
# [18:13] <BenMillard> but as it turns out, next to nobody has done testing with the inspector
# [18:14] <BenMillard> I'll jgraham decide what goes into the real interface
# [18:14] <BenMillard> s/I'll/I'll let/
# [18:14] <zcorpan> BenMillard: accessibility professionals don't need to test things
# [18:14] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
# [18:15] <BenMillard> zcorpan, it would be nice if they do so before giving feedback about how HTML5 is ruining accessibility :)
# [18:15] <zcorpan> BenMillard: i agree
# [18:17] <BenMillard> Philip`, table headers are all centred now: http://projectcerbera.com/!dev/irc-logs/front
# [18:18] <BenMillard> Krijn, that demo also shows what I meant by "a link to a page of referrers" in the footer
# [18:18] <Philip`> Why can't I use SVG stroke="rgba(...)" in Opera (9.6) or Safari (3.0)?
# [18:18] <BenMillard> zcorpan, do you have an opinion on that IRC Logs demo? ^^^
# [18:20] <BenMillard> I think month view is overkill for a front page, but could work in yearly and monthly archive pages
# [18:20] <zcorpan> BenMillard: the calendars don't contain the same information
# [18:20] <zcorpan> i think the left most works fine, except instead with an archives link
# [18:21] <zcorpan> but i don't really care :)
# [18:22] <BenMillard> zcorpan, yeah the calendars don't have number of lines or number of important lines...which is a bit lame
# [18:22] <zcorpan> the logs sometimes forget who i am, which is probably what is most annoying for me
# [18:22] <BenMillard> yeah, I get that if I don't use them for like a week or so
# [18:23] <zcorpan> krijn: is it because of the expiration date of the cookies?
# [18:32] * Quits: annevk3 (n=annevk@80.187.222.119) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
# [18:32] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/misc/spec-links-anim.svgz
# [18:33] <BenMillard> jgraham, attempted WHATWG colouring and made <dl> order match <select> order: http://projectcerbera.com/!dev/table-inspector/new
# [18:34] <jgraham> BenMillard: Dunno about the green :)
# [18:35] <jgraham> Philip`: That is cool. Am I supposed to think anyhting more complex than that?
# [18:35] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de) (Remote closed the connection)
# [18:36] <Philip`> jgraham: No - it doesn't have any actual point
# [18:36] <Philip`> although it does provide the shocking insight that the spec has got more complex over time
# [18:40] <Philip`> (Also, Opera seems slow at SVG)
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# [19:10] <gsnedders> Damn you browsers apart from Chrome and IE8!
# [19:12] <Philip`> (?)
# [19:14] <gsnedders> one tab bringing down the whole browser
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# [20:01] <csarven> So, I'm trying to put together a "sidebar" or "supplemental_information" area and I was going to put aside and section elements together. Would something like this be accurate: <aside><section></section> <section></section> ...</aside>
# [20:16] <krijn> BenMillard: "a link to a page of referrers" - thanks, now I know what a link looks like :)
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# [20:27] <zcorpan> csarven: looks reasonable
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# [20:44] <zcorpan> http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585619
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# [20:48] <hsivonen> Philip`: the spec ref animation is very cool. thanks
# [20:49] <hsivonen> what use case were mutation events introduced for in the first place?
# [20:50] <hsivonen> notifying various internal parts of the browser makes sense, but those parts can promise not to mutate the DOM themselves
# [20:50] <hsivonen> however, letting scripts mutate the DOM on mutation events seems like asking for trouble
# [20:51] <gavin> I think the main use case was "browser developers don't have enough headaches"
# [20:53] <hsivonen> perhaps there wasn't enough headache back then
# [20:53] <Philip`> Maybe you want to implement SVG in pure JS, and you need some way to detect when the DOM has changed so that you can update all your internal data structures and draw everything
# [20:53] <Philip`> (though you don't need synchronous mutation events for that)
# [20:54] <Philip`> (so there are probably better solutions in that case)
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# [20:58] <hsivonen> can XBL execute script in the context of the document it binds to as a response of a document mutation?
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# [23:40] <zcorpan_> should DOMException be in module dom?
# [23:40] <annevk3> hsivonen, regarding the parsing of noXXX elements, have you considered that the tree builder code might be relevant in case the feature is disabled, e.g. when plugins are disabled <noembed> is parsed differently, the same might go for frames if Gecko still offers that feature
# [23:41] <hsivonen> annevk3: if plug-ins are disabled, shouldn't the form controls in noembed work?
# [23:42] <hsivonen> I wonder if disabling plug-ins actually changes noembed parsing
# [23:43] <zcorpan_> it does in opera, or at least did, not sure if we changed that
# [23:43] <annevk3> oh, apologies, I guess I didn't read the logs carefully enough to consider what Gecko is actually doing in those scenarios
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# [23:48] <heycam> zcorpan_, it should be (if only so that the java package is in org.w3c.dom)
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# [23:48] <heycam> er, s/package/class/
# [23:49] <heycam> zcorpan_, will you be making NodeLists callable?
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# [23:51] <zcorpan_> heycam: callable?
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# [23:53] <annevk3> zcorpan_, list(x) syntax rather than list[x]
# [23:53] <heycam> yes that
# [23:53] <heycam> i wasn't sure whether that's something people agreed on needing to specify
# [23:54] <heycam> i added [Callable] to web idl that could be used to do that, if needed
# [23:58] <zcorpan_> do browsers support that on NodeLists?
# Session Close: Fri Nov 28 00:00:00 2008

The end :)