/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-12-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 02 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <BenMillard> Lachy, I just got to that point in the logs. It wasn't so much the quantity of problems, it's that fact that totally reasonable use cases (such as using <strong> to mark a data cell's content as being particularly important) screw up the rest of the table. :(
  4. # [00:03] <BenMillard> Lachy, and <td><b> was used about as often for that as <td><strong>, IIRC.
  5. # [00:04] <BenMillard> Lachy, I can put a note in the "Ben's Advice" section of the comparison document about that if you like?
  6. # [00:06] <Lachy> but in those cases, wouldn't those cells be more likely to occur in the middle of the table, rather than the first row or first column, and if the entire first row/column used <td><b> or <td><strong>, wouldn't that be a reasonable indication that their meant to be headers?
  7. # [00:07] <BenMillard> Lachy, that's an interesting idea.
  8. # [00:08] <BenMillard> Lachy, it becomes a question of how much heuristics Hixie would let us get away with. :)
  9. # [00:08] <Hixie> i don't want any heuristics, i want the algorithm to reflect the actual semantics of the language
  10. # [00:09] <Hixie> in particular, i really don't want anything magic like <td><b>
  11. # [00:09] <BenMillard> yeah, those things often have unexpected "gotchas!" when it comes to real tables anyway
  12. # [00:09] <Lachy> ok, fine
  13. # [00:10] <BenMillard> Lachy, for example, I've seen tables where row headers use <td><b> but it had an entire row is made of <td><b> to highlight the data in it. There are also cases where <td><b> is used to create "section headers" midway through the table. So you could add an extra layer of heuristics to disambiguate those cases...but then there's another layer you could add, and another...ad infinitum. :)
  14. # [00:14] <BenMillard> I'll add a "No Heuristics" bit to the advice section, to make clear that my experience with studying data tables supports Hixie's design choice on this. (Basically, they open a can of worms which is difficult to close.)
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  17. # [00:25] <BenMillard> Lachy, ESPN (and a few other places) uses <td class> to apply the boldness to header cells rather than <td><b>. So...how much heuristics do you want? :P
  18. # [00:25] <BenMillard> at least the tables using bold header cells can be retrofitted to <th> with only the text alignment making a visible difference
  19. # [00:26] <BenMillard> or they could use <td class scope> with no visible difference (if HTML5 supports that)
  20. # [00:27] <BenMillard> or use <th class> and add text-align:foo in the relevant bit of CSS
  21. # [00:28] <Lachy> BenMillard, don't use the slippery slope fallacy. I only suggested <td><b> because it seemed like a common, easily detectable method that people use for headers
  22. # [00:32] <BenMillard> Lachy, ok. Check the list under "Using <td> with any attributes and a <b> or a <strong> as the only child": http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2007/tables/
  23. # [00:32] <BenMillard> Lachy, it's not that common.
  24. # [00:34] <Hixie> what rfc defines the ftp: scheme?
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  27. # [00:36] <Philip`> Hixie: http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes.html seems to give the answer
  28. # [00:37] <Hixie> thanks
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  32. # [01:05] <BenMillard> Lachy, what part of my reasoning was a slippery slope fallacy? Was it comparing <td><b> to <td class>?
  33. # [01:06] <|tbb|> hello all, im searching for a simple tutorial how to use <event-source> tag, what i want is to read the content of the srcfile into variables
  34. # [01:06] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  35. # [01:07] * Philip` wonders if there's a name for the fallacy of falsely calling an argument fallacious
  36. # [01:08] <Lachy> BenMillard: "... So you could add an extra layer of heuristics to disambiguate those cases...but then there's another layer you could add, and another...ad infinitum" "ESPN uses <td class> ... how much heuristics do you want?"
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  39. # [01:10] <Lachy> hmm, maybe that's the continuum fallacy, not slippery slope http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy
  40. # [01:11] <|tbb|> anyone familar with this event-source thing?
  41. # [01:11] <Lachy> yes
  42. # [01:11] <|tbb|> what im trying to do is create an offline app, that loads serval stuff when it becomes online
  43. # [01:12] <|tbb|> ive found out that thing with the manifest file where you can define whats from cache and whats from network
  44. # [01:13] <|tbb|> but i dont know how to read that stuff, or better i dont know how the sourcefile should look like
  45. # [01:13] <|tbb|> for example <event-source src="onlinesource.php">
  46. # [01:14] <|tbb|> how can i read and output that file
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  48. # [01:14] <Lachy> I don't understand, you seem to be confusing offline webapps with event-source, which are 2 different things
  49. # [01:15] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-65-132-93.nyc.res.rr.com)
  50. # [01:17] <|tbb|> maybe point 3 descripes it better -> http://www.browseking.com/cgi-bin/nph-bk1.pl/010110A/http/www.w3.org/TR/2008/NOTE-offline-webapps-20080530/
  51. # [01:18] <Lachy> what is browseking.com and why are you proxying the spec through that server?
  52. # [01:19] <|tbb|> found this url through google while searching for a solution, sorry
  53. # [01:19] <Lachy> this is a more up to date version http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/offline.html#offline
  54. # [01:19] * Joins: sicking (n=chatzill@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  55. # [01:19] <BenMillard> Lachy, so it was the jump from <td><b> to <td class>, then?
  56. # [01:19] <Lachy> yes
  57. # [01:20] <BenMillard> ok, that makes sense
  58. # [01:20] <|tbb|> ive pasted the content -> http://pastebin.ca/1272831
  59. # [01:23] <Lachy> ah, that's just an example showing what the different sections of the manifest file do
  60. # [01:24] <|tbb|> that manifest file works for me, but i dont know how to integrate an network(online) file into my cached site
  61. # [01:25] <Lachy> the eventsource element (previously known as "event-source") allows you to send events to the client from the server. See http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-eventsource-element
  62. # [01:26] <Lachy> basically, the client creates a persistent connection with the server and the server can send events to the client through that connection. Then the scripts in the page can listen for those events as they're fired on the eventsource element
  63. # [01:27] <|tbb|> oh, like a webservice
  64. # [01:28] <Lachy> this section describes the format for the events http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#server-sent-events
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  66. # [01:29] <BenMillard> Lachy, the "can of worms" criticism of "add extra heuristics until <td><b> works" is valid before jumping to <td class>, though?
  67. # [01:30] * BenMillard is learning logic today.
  68. # [01:31] <Lachy> I think your argument would have been valid by pointing out that there are so many other cases that would give false positives and false negatives, that the simple solution I proposed wouldn't be very effective.
  69. # [01:32] <BenMillard> Lachy, yeah that's what I was trying to say. :)
  70. # [01:32] <Lachy> ok, fair enough
  71. # [01:34] <BenMillard> Lachy, is characterising that as "it opens a can of worms which is difficult to close" valid?
  72. # [01:35] <|tbb|> lachy, the ticker.php which is descriped in that server-sent example, how does this file look like
  73. # [01:35] <BenMillard> (that section will include a link to these logs, I'm just figuring out a short way to describe it)
  74. # [01:35] <Lachy> BenMillard, I don't know. possibly.
  75. # [01:36] <Lachy> |tbb|, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#parsing-an-event-stream
  76. # [01:37] <Lachy> ticker.php would need to have logic in it that makes the server maintain a persistent connection, and then each event the server sends would need to be in that format
  77. # [01:39] <|tbb|> how can i set the mime type of the ticker, is that correct-> header("Content-Type: text/event-stream");
  78. # [01:39] <Lachy> for PHP, yes
  79. # [01:39] <Lachy> I don't know how to make PHP maintain a persistent connection though
  80. # [01:41] <|tbb|> for me it where enough, to send the content of the ticker.php once
  81. # [01:41] <|tbb|> maybe im thinking completly wrong
  82. # [01:41] <|tbb|> for what i want to do
  83. # [01:42] <Lachy> I'm not sure what you're trying to do though. Why are you using server sent events for?
  84. # [01:42] <Lachy> s/Why are/What are/
  85. # [01:42] <Philip`> If you just want to download the immediate output of that script, and aren't doing any kind of streaming, it sounds like you could just use XMLHttpRequest instead
  86. # [01:44] <Lachy> |tbb|, read http://labs.opera.com/news/2006/09/01/
  87. # [01:44] <Lachy> that's based on an older version of the spec, which has since changed, but it will give you a better understanding of what it does and how it works
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  89. # [02:12] <|tbb|> Lachy: ive found an php example which should sent the server-time each 3 secs, http://my.opera.com/WebApplications/blog/index.dml/tag/server-sent%20events
  90. # [02:14] <|tbb|> ive changed the sented data to -> data: YHOO data: -2 data: 10 to use it with the example in whatwg example but nothing happends, any idea? oh btw, ive changed the header also to text/event-stream
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  92. # [02:15] <Lachy> which browser are you using?
  93. # [02:15] <|tbb|> safari (iphone)
  94. # [02:15] <Lachy> that doesn't implement it yet
  95. # [02:16] <Lachy> if you want to experiment with it, use Opera, but you have to use the old MIME type because that's what has been implemented
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  97. # [02:19] <|tbb|> lachy, sorry because ive asked again, are you sure that the latest safari iphone os fw.2.2 doesnt support it?
  98. # [02:20] <Lachy> yes, I'm sure
  99. # [02:20] <olliej> Lachy: what are we talking about?
  100. # [02:20] <Lachy> server sent events
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  102. # [02:20] * Dashimon is now known as Dashiva
  103. # [02:20] <olliej> ah
  104. # [02:20] * olliej isn't sure if those are supported in webkit trunk
  105. # [02:22] <Lachy> http://www.google.com/search?q=Server-sent+events+webkit returns some discussions about reviewing patches to implement it
  106. # [02:22] <Lachy> first result: https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-reviews/2007-September/019931.html
  107. # [02:22] <Lachy> so it looks like there was an implementation at least started
  108. # [02:23] <Lachy> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14997 still marked NEW
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  110. # [02:28] <ajnewbold> gsnedders: *poke*
  111. # [02:28] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E...%3Cscript%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Cx%3E%3C%2Fx%3E%3Cselect%3E%3Cscript%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Cx%3E%3C%2Fx%3E%3Coptgroup%3E%3Cscript%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Cx%3E%3C%2Fx%3E%3Coption%3E%3Cscript%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Cx%3E%3C%2Fx%3E
  112. # [02:28] <Hixie> sigh
  113. # [02:28] * Hixie mumbles something about <script> being annoying
  114. # [02:28] * Quits: webben_ (n=webben@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  115. # [02:28] <ajnewbold> cool, <x>
  116. # [02:28] <ajnewbold> is that a real element?
  117. # [02:29] * Quits: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  118. # [02:29] * ajnewbold has been out of touch with web stuff for too long now :(
  119. # [02:29] <Lachy> ajnewbold, no
  120. # [02:29] <ajnewbold> darn
  121. # [02:29] <ajnewbold> <x> would make for a pretty cool element, I think
  122. # [02:30] <Lachy> it used to be. But it was renamed, several times and finally dropped
  123. # [02:30] <ajnewbold> <x>spot</x>
  124. # [02:30] <ajnewbold> oh.
  125. # [02:30] <Lachy> I can't remember what it was for though
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  128. # [02:31] <Hixie> it's <i> now
  129. # [02:31] <Lachy> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-October/007481.html
  130. # [02:32] <ajnewbold> I see
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  133. # [02:34] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E...%3Cscript%3E%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Cx%3E%3C%2Fx%3E%3Ctable%3E%3Cscript%3E%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Cx%3E%3C%2Fx%3E%3Ctbody%3E%3Cscript%3E%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Cx%3E%3C%2Fx%3E%3Ctr%3E%3Cscript%3E%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Cx%3E%3C%2Fx%3E%3Ctd%3E%3Cscript%3E%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Cx%3E%3C%2Fx%3E is even worse
  134. # [02:34] <Hixie> i hate browsers
  135. # [02:36] <Lachy> heh
  136. # [02:36] <Hixie> ok no really, wtf is IE8 doing with http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E...%3Cscript%3E%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Cx%3E%3Cb%3Ea%3C%2Fb%3E%3C%2Fx%3E%3Ctable%3E%3Cscript%3E%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Cx%3E%3Cb%3Ea%3C%2Fb%3E%3C%2Fx%3E
  137. # [02:37] <Lachy> I suppose keeping <script> in place, instead of moving it, is necessary to deal with document.write() weirdness
  138. # [02:38] <Lachy> e.g. <table><script>document.write("<tr>...")</script>...</table>
  139. # [02:38] <Hixie> yes
  140. # [02:39] <Hixie> why is there no second /X element in http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E...%3Cx%3E%3Cb%3Ea%3C%2Fb%3E%3C%2Fx%3E%3Cselect%3E%3Cx%3E%3Cb%3Ea%3C%2Fb%3E%3C%2Fx%3E%3C%2Fselect%3E in IE8??
  141. # [02:40] <Lachy> aargh! WTF! "Internet Explorer has modified this page to prevent a potential cross-site scripting attack."
  142. # [02:40] <Lachy> how the hell do I disable that annoying "feature"
  143. # [02:40] * Lachy uploads to the clipboard from a real browser first
  144. # [02:41] <Philip`> You tell the author of the site you're using to add a special header to disable the XSS protection :-)
  145. # [02:41] <Hixie> i don't ever get that message
  146. # [02:41] <Hixie> did i do something wrong?
  147. # [02:41] <Philip`> I do get it
  148. # [02:42] <Hixie> how do i get it to come up?
  149. # [02:42] <Lachy> Hixie, copy and paste that URL above into IE8
  150. # [02:42] <Lachy> it seems to detect the <script> in the URL and thinks it's a XSS attack
  151. # [02:43] <Philip`> By visiting a URL with <script> in the query string, and <script> in the body, which makes IE8 think it's possibly XSS and so it destroys all the <script> tags in the page
  152. # [02:43] <Lachy> Philip`, what's the special header to use?
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  154. # [02:43] <Lachy> I'll need to add that to html5.lachy.id.au too
  155. # [02:44] <Lachy> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/02/ie8-security-part-iv-the-xss-filter.aspx
  156. # [02:44] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/02/ie8-security-part-iv-the-xss-filter.aspx says X-XSS-Protection: 0
  157. # [02:47] * Quits: billmason (n=bmason@ip49.unival.com) ("Leaving.")
  158. # [02:47] <Hixie> wow it just does s/<script>/<sc#ipt>/, that's so insane
  159. # [02:47] <ajnewbold> heh
  160. # [02:49] <Hixie> i don't get it if i go to http://ln.hixie.ch/?<script>
  161. # [02:49] <Hixie> weird
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  170. # [03:00] <Lachy> the X-XSS-Protection: 0 header seems to work
  171. # [03:01] <Lachy> but apparently using Apache's Header directive in .htaccess doesn't affect PHP scripts :-(
  172. # [03:03] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  173. # [03:11] <Hixie> r2500!
  174. # [03:13] <Hixie> i need to start sticking ?<script> at the end of all my URLs
  175. # [03:13] * Quits: tantek_ (n=tantek@32.168.125.62)
  176. # [03:20] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) ("going back to danbri.org")
  177. # [03:25] * Lachy attempts to downgrade to iTunes 7.7.1, backup the keys, and then upgrade to 8.0.2 again to see if that works
  178. # [03:25] <Lachy> with requiem
  179. # [03:28] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
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  182. # [03:31] <ajnewbold> I found it interesting how html4 bitched if I had <a> right after <hr>, telling me that I had to put it in something else first
  183. # [03:31] <ajnewbold> but html5 is totally cool with it
  184. # [03:31] <ajnewbold> well, the validator is anyway
  185. # [03:32] <ajnewbold> plus, the doctype is shorter
  186. # [03:32] <ajnewbold> html5 wins every which way
  187. # [03:32] <Hixie> yeah in html5 you can put blocks in <a>s
  188. # [03:33] <ajnewbold> awesome.
  189. # [03:33] <Hixie> Lachy: doesn't the latest requiem support the latest itunes?
  190. # [03:34] <ajnewbold> Hixie: earlier today I was reading about acid3 on wikipedia
  191. # [03:34] <ajnewbold> the article mentions you quite a bit
  192. # [03:34] <ajnewbold> kind of neat to see you here
  193. # [03:34] <Hixie> makes sense, i wrote it :-P
  194. # [03:34] <ajnewbold> oh, hehe
  195. # [03:34] <ajnewbold> :)
  196. # [03:34] <Hixie> acid3, that is, not the article :-)
  197. # [03:34] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  198. # [03:34] <ajnewbold> ah, heh
  199. # [03:34] <ajnewbold> acid3 is pretty frigging insane
  200. # [03:34] <Hixie> yeah
  201. # [03:35] <ajnewbold> I suspect acid4 will perform a lapdance or something
  202. # [03:35] <Hixie> acid4 will be more like acid2
  203. # [03:35] <Hixie> it'll have some sort of picture
  204. # [03:35] <Hixie> probably a cat
  205. # [03:35] <Hixie> and will test primarily non-scripting things
  206. # [03:35] <ajnewbold> yay
  207. # [03:35] <Hixie> probably svg 1.1 stuff
  208. # [03:35] <Hixie> but i'll have to learn svg to do that
  209. # [03:35] <Hixie> so we'll see
  210. # [03:35] <ajnewbold> it'll be fun
  211. # [03:35] <Hixie> won't be for some time
  212. # [03:36] <ajnewbold> I know virtually nothing about svg
  213. # [03:36] <ajnewbold> except that it's amazing
  214. # [03:36] <Hixie> that's one word for it
  215. # [03:36] <ajnewbold> oh, wait, I've got it!
  216. # [03:36] <ajnewbold> acid4 could consist of this: <cat>
  217. # [03:36] <ajnewbold> first browser to correctly render that wins.
  218. # [03:37] <ajnewbold> :D
  219. # [03:37] <ajnewbold> sorry, <cat/>
  220. # [03:37] <Hixie> acid tests are based on "old" standards
  221. # [03:37] <Hixie> so we'd have to get cracking on making a Cat standard
  222. # [03:37] <ajnewbold> oh.
  223. # [03:37] <ajnewbold> good point
  224. # [03:39] <Lachy> Hixie, I want to get the 7.7.1 keys and see if using that with 1.7.4 works for me, just like it seems to continue working for you
  225. # [03:39] <Hixie> aah
  226. # [03:39] <Hixie> is 1.8 causing problems then?
  227. # [03:39] * Hixie wonders why we preserve case for doctype names
  228. # [03:39] <ajnewbold> I wonder if I'll live to see an intelligent content display agent
  229. # [03:39] <Lachy> 1.8 using 8.0.1 keys doesn't decrypt content bought with 8.0.2
  230. # [03:40] <ajnewbold> something that can take raw content, pure text or whatever, and display it accordingly
  231. # [03:40] <ajnewbold> it could generate its own navigation based purely on analysis of what links to what, not through any kind of specific declaration
  232. # [03:41] <Hixie> Lachy: ah, interesting
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  234. # [03:47] <Hixie> i'm going to shoot the first person who asks for what i just did to be uppercase instead of lowercase (and who didn't read this line)
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  239. # [03:49] <Lachy> Hixie, can you make what you just did uppercase instead of lowercase?
  240. # [03:49] <Lachy> :-)
  241. # [03:50] * Lachy prefers lowercase for the DOCTYPE name anyway
  242. # [03:55] <blooberry> does anyone here have any experience with rss/atom syntax?
  243. # [03:58] * Hixie grumbles as he re-opens IE to examine its behavior around <form></form>
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  245. # [04:06] <Hixie> crap, i used the wrong annotation for the last checkin
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  261. # [05:49] <Lachy> Hixie, downgrading to iTunes 7.7.1 and having it generate a new set of keys now allows me to decrypt everything bought with 8.0.2 :-)
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  267. # [06:26] <Hixie> Lachy: cool
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  284. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> I see a note at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MicrosyntaxDescriptions#datetime-tz that says:
  285. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> "(This format deviates from the spec draft.)"
  286. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> anybody know why it deviates?
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  294. # [08:39] <roc> MikeSmith: what's the point of "Typical default display properties" for <audio> and <video> in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/ ?
  295. # [08:39] <Hixie> what spec defines that + means %20 in an HTTP URI's query component?
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  300. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> roc: no point except that the webkit default UA stylesheet provides CSS for them, so the build just picks that up
  301. # [08:50] <roc> So you have a script that replaces "webkit" with "vendor"?
  302. # [08:50] <roc> I think it's highly likely to confuse people
  303. # [08:51] * Joins: tthorsen (n=tommy@home.kvaleberg.no)
  304. # [08:52] <roc> same for form controls
  305. # [08:52] <roc> all those rules are highly UA-specific
  306. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> yeah, I realize that
  307. # [08:53] <Hixie> we need someone to actually edit a spec that defines all this stuff
  308. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> and, yeah, the script replaces "webkit" with "vendor"
  309. # [08:53] <Hixie> otherwise i'm gonna have to end up doing it and i don't wanna :-P
  310. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> if the CSS WG could produce a real-world reference default UA stylesheet, I much rather use that
  311. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> I guess I could just have the script ignore anything that's got a vendor-specific prefix in it
  312. # [08:55] <roc> the rendering of media and form controls are far from fully described by the UA stylesheet
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  321. # [09:47] <annevk3> Hixie, I thought there was a reasong for not munging the DOCTYPE case, ask hsivonen
  322. # [09:47] <Hixie> he's the one who asked to munge it
  323. # [09:49] <annevk3> well then :)
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  328. # [09:56] <annevk3> oh, way over 2500 revisions already
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  336. # [10:26] <aaronlev> hi hsivonen
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  340. # [11:02] <annevk3> hsivonen, the spec also has document.innerHTML for which it seems logical, even necessary, to create a Document object a
  341. # [11:03] <annevk3> (XMLHttpRequest currently uses the serialization algorithm of that)
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  343. # [11:15] <zcorpan> annevk3: couldn't you put the document object on the stack?
  344. # [11:17] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-e33fd9034f30d654)
  345. # [11:20] <Hixie> i thought innerHTML was the very case hsivonen was arguing that we shouldn't use a separate doc for
  346. # [11:20] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  347. # [11:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: document.innerHTML (as opposed to elm.innerHTML)
  348. # [11:25] <Hixie> oh
  349. # [11:26] <Hixie> really?
  350. # [11:26] <Hixie> i missed the distinction.
  351. # [11:26] <Hixie> interesting.
  352. # [11:26] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-145-163.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  353. # [11:34] <annevk3> whoa
  354. # [11:34] <annevk3> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/
  355. # [11:35] <annevk3> guess that means we can start dropping XML 1.1 support in Opera...
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  358. # [12:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: sorry, forgot the 'c' annotation on r2524
  359. # [12:01] * Joins: tthorsen (n=tommy@home.kvaleberg.no)
  360. # [12:14] <zcorpan> Hixie: why ban the empty string in placeholder?
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  365. # [12:26] <Hixie> zcorpan: what would it be if not an authoring mistake?
  366. # [12:26] <jgraham> placeholder should probably be limited to have a length <= @size
  367. # [12:28] <Philip`> jgraham: Why?
  368. # [12:30] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  369. # [12:30] <jgraham> Philip`: Because, in theory if the control has a size attribute set you will only be able to see that many characters
  370. # [12:30] <jgraham> Having a placeholder that is wider than the number of visible characters seems odd
  371. # [12:30] <Philip`> It doesn't seem to make much sense to allow <input placeholder=wwww size=4> but not <input placeholder=iiiii size=4>, if the concern is how many characters get visibly rendered
  372. # [12:31] <jgraham> Yeah, proportional fonts suck ;)
  373. # [12:32] <jgraham> But it seems like an authouring error to put a long string in @placeholder which may not be visible in all UAs
  374. # [12:33] <zcorpan> Hixie: a placeholder :)
  375. # [12:33] <Hixie> fair enough
  376. # [12:33] <Hixie> will change
  377. # [12:35] <Lachy> Hixie, will change what?
  378. # [12:35] <Hixie> allow placeholder="" to be empty
  379. # [12:35] <Lachy> why? zcorpan's argument seemed pretty weak
  380. # [12:36] <Hixie> we allow title="" to be blank
  381. # [12:36] <Hixie> class="" to be blank
  382. # [12:36] <Lachy> oh
  383. # [12:36] <Hixie> etc
  384. # [12:36] <Lachy> ok
  385. # [12:40] <jgraham> Hixie: FWIW the definition of the size attribute seems like it is inaccurate; presumably the UA can allow the user to see more or less characters depending on CSS
  386. # [12:40] <jgraham> s/less/fewer/
  387. # [12:40] <Lachy> Hixie, there's a bug in the update notification script on the multipage version. It still says "This specification has been updated. You are reading r2526 but the latest revision is r2527..." even after reloading
  388. # [12:40] <Hixie> jgraham: the definition has no UA normative criteria
  389. # [12:41] <Hixie> Lachy: it takes time for the multipage version to update
  390. # [12:41] <Hixie> Lachy: you probably _are_ reading r2526
  391. # [12:41] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@ZC191098.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  392. # [12:43] <jgraham> Hixie: Well it is still misleading even if it is not normative
  393. # [12:44] <Hixie> i guess
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  395. # [12:44] <Hixie> what dos it define then?
  396. # [12:44] <Hixie> anyway send feedback, i'm going to bed soon
  397. # [12:44] <Hixie> :-)
  398. # [12:46] <jgraham> I guess it defines the default width, in characters (dunno what that means, exactly) of the control when presented in a visual UA
  399. # [12:46] <Hixie> what's a "default width"?
  400. # [12:47] <jgraham> Oh, I assume all undefined terms will be dealt with in the rendering section ;)
  401. # [12:47] <Hixie> mmhm :-)
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  404. # [12:57] <|tbb|> hi all, anyone has experience with creating offline apps?
  405. # [12:58] <|tbb|> http://www.w3.org/TR/offline-webapps
  406. # [13:08] <Lachy> Hixie, the last update to the placeholder attribute section appears in the multipage version, but the notice still appears on the page with the TOC.
  407. # [13:08] <Hixie> odd
  408. # [13:09] <Hixie> well if you can work out what the problem is, let me know and i'll fix it
  409. # [13:09] <Hixie> i'm going to bed now
  410. # [13:09] <Hixie> nn
  411. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> |tbb|: probably best to just ask a question
  412. # [13:12] <|tbb|> lachy and others, hours ago, and im still looking for a solution for my needings. maybe you can give me the special hint to get my prob solved. im trying to build and offline-webapp, so if i stay online, the browser should read particluary data from the online ressource anyway.
  413. # [13:15] <|tbb|> what i figure out is that -> var online = navigator.onLine; will tell me if im online or not but when i trying to change style of an element in case of the online or not online state it wont work, it always shows me the html source which i have stored for offline viewing
  414. # [13:15] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  415. # [13:17] <Lachy> I don't understand what you mean
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  417. # [13:18] <Lachy> it might help if you could show us a minimised sample page illustrating what you are trying to do
  418. # [13:19] <|tbb|> im doing it right now
  419. # [13:24] <annevk3> navigator.onLine should work quite well nowadays, onoffline and ononline might not
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  422. # [13:36] <|tbb|> ok, here it is
  423. # [13:36] <|tbb|> http://pastebin.com/d1918cc75
  424. # [13:36] <Dashiva> <meta names ?
  425. # [13:39] <|tbb|> typing error but this isnt the problem it self
  426. # [13:41] <Lachy> |tbb|, you have listed myofflineapp.php in the NETWORK section of the manifest, meaning that it won't be cached. Are you sure that's what you want?
  427. # [13:42] <|tbb|> what i really like to do is, that a particluary file always load if the user is online, so i can provide updates or something
  428. # [13:43] <|tbb|> it doesnt matter if i put the myofflineapp.php in network section or not it always loads the cached one
  429. # [13:45] <Lachy> AIUI, the browser should check for an update on the server
  430. # [13:45] <annevk3> standardssuck.org is now upgraded
  431. # [13:45] <Lachy> which browsers are you testing with?
  432. # [13:46] <|tbb|> safari on iphone
  433. # [13:46] <|tbb|> fw 2.2
  434. # [13:47] <Lachy> annevk3, there were plugins that needed upgrading too. I did that for you
  435. # [13:47] <annevk3> k
  436. # [13:48] <Lachy> are you sure that version of Safari implements offline webapps, as defined in HTML5?
  437. # [13:49] <Lachy> this page says only Chrome implements that feature via a plugin. http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Implementations_in_Web_browsers
  438. # [13:49] <|tbb|> aaaahrrrrggggg, (online=true) should mean (online==true) now it works, damnd sorry
  439. # [13:49] <Lachy> of course, that page could be out of date
  440. # [13:49] <Lachy> oh, right. I didn't notice that ;-)
  441. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> I did also hear that safari on iphone supports the offline-webapps stuff
  442. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> I think the "Save to Home Screen" feature makes use of it
  443. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> (if the app actually has a manifest specified)
  444. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> as of iphone OS 2.1 at least
  445. # [13:51] <|tbb|> MikeSmith: thats what im talking about
  446. # [13:51] <Lachy> ok, then someone should update the wiki
  447. # [13:56] <|tbb|> one more problem, like open the browser look at the page (allready online) it shows me the state online. if im deactivating wlan then, and reopen the site it says he is online, but if im reloading the page again it shows me the correct onlinestat
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  449. # [14:08] <|tbb|> lachy, i wonder if the event-source thing will work also (may enabled but not announced) but im doing something wrong because i dont know much about it?
  450. # [14:09] <Lachy> |tbb|, the WebKit bug for eventsource is still marked as NEW, not FIXED, so it seems unlikely that a release version of Safari would have it
  451. # [14:09] <Lachy> btw, it's <eventsource> now, not <event-source>
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  454. # [14:13] <|tbb|> ah, k. how can i write the content from anyotherfile.php into a div on my current page from javascript is that possible ?
  455. # [14:13] <annevk3> zcorpan, Hixie stated in some other e-mail that all events would get a global event handler attribute
  456. # [14:13] <annevk3> zcorpan, and do we really want to group events? readystatechange sucks balls
  457. # [14:22] <zcorpan> annevk3: not sure but i'd like to see use cases for some events
  458. # [14:23] <zcorpan> what's wrong with readystatechange?
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  460. # [14:29] <annevk3> that you need to check all kinds of other things to know what's going on rather than being able to directly trigger something based on the event name
  461. # [14:30] <annevk3> you basically need some conditional logic inside the event; it's much nicer if that's handled by different event names instead
  462. # [14:30] <annevk3> (e.g. the difference between a successful load and an aborted one)
  463. # [14:33] <zcorpan> ok
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  480. # [16:43] <annevk3> http://my.opera.com/haavard/blog/2008/12/02/google-closes-the-web-in-korea :/
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  497. # [17:50] <annevk3> is there an easy .htaccess line to kill the connection if someone uses a certain browser?
  498. # [17:52] <annevk3> or a more friendly heuristic, if the URI contains "&amp;"
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  501. # [18:02] <annevk3> SetEnvIf Request_URI "&amp;" evil
  502. # [18:02] <annevk3> Deny from evil
  503. # [18:02] <annevk3> ?
  504. # [18:04] * Joins: smerp (n=smerp@66.192.95.199)
  505. # [18:04] <annevk3> Deny from env=evil
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  508. # [18:08] <annevk3> hmm, that doesn't work
  509. # [18:10] <svl> SetEnvIf Request_URI "&amp;" evil=1
  510. # [18:11] <svl> ?
  511. # [18:11] <annevk3> nope
  512. # [18:11] <annevk3> the documentation is crap
  513. # [18:12] <svl> oh yeah, looks like that's redundant. You have <FilesMatch "(.*)"> \n Order Allow,Deny \n Allow from all \n Deny from env=evil \n </FilesMatch>
  514. # [18:13] <svl> (specifically the order bit?)
  515. # [18:13] <annevk3> currently no
  516. # [18:13] <annevk3> can they appear inside <FilesMatch?
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  518. # [18:14] <svl> that's the way I have it - which works for me. :)
  519. # [18:15] <svl> (but the problem with .htaccess is that there's so many other things setting up things inside it that there's a high chance of conflicts...)
  520. # [18:15] <svl> well, _a_ problem.
  521. # [18:15] <annevk3> no, doesn't work
  522. # [18:15] <annevk3> there's almost nothing configured here
  523. # [18:16] <svl> pastebin the entire .htaccess file?
  524. # [18:16] <svl> wfm: http://juima.org/stuff/test&amp;test
  525. # [18:17] <annevk3> http://html5.org/x.htaccess
  526. # [18:19] * weinig is now known as weinig|lunch
  527. # [18:19] <svl> iirc the latter option overrides the former, hence allow,deny instead of deny,allow (blaklisting versus whitelisting)
  528. # [18:20] <annevk3> i tried that too
  529. # [18:20] <annevk3> will try again
  530. # [18:20] * Philip`__ is now known as Philip`
  531. # [18:20] <svl> what I have is http://pastebin.com/d7a7644ea
  532. # [18:20] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  533. # [18:21] <Philip`> Maybe mod_rewrite would be easier
  534. # [18:21] <svl> "Deny,Allow: First, all Deny directives are evaluated; if any match, the request is denied unless it also matches an Allow directive."
  535. # [18:22] <svl> that's the problem with the current version
  536. # [18:22] <annevk3> it seems that for query strings it does not work?
  537. # [18:22] <annevk3> can that be true?
  538. # [18:22] <svl> yes
  539. # [18:22] <annevk3> see e.g. http://juima.org/stuff/?test&amp;test
  540. # [18:22] <svl> querystring isn't part of request_uri
  541. # [18:22] <annevk3> geez
  542. # [18:22] <svl> meh, should've remembered that immediately.
  543. # [18:22] <svl> yeah, that sucks
  544. # [18:22] <annevk3> do you know the variable?
  545. # [18:22] * svl remembers being frustrated by it not two months ago
  546. # [18:23] <svl> iirc there isn't one, and I indeed moved to mod_rewrite as Philip` suggested. Back then it was:
  547. # [18:23] <svl> RewriteCond %{QUERY_STRING} DECLARE
  548. # [18:23] <svl> RewriteRule ^(.*) - [F]
  549. # [18:24] <annevk3> "See the RewriteCond directive of mod_rewrite for extra information on how to match your query string." sigh
  550. # [18:24] <svl> so s/DECLARE/&amp;/ and put a RewriteEngine On above it.
  551. # [18:25] <annevk3> nice
  552. # [18:25] <annevk3> there is this bot hitting web-apps-tracker for a couple of months now and eating 15 gigabytes a month or so
  553. # [18:26] <svl> youch
  554. # [18:26] <annevk3> it apparently fetches &amp; URIs
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  557. # [18:31] <annevk3> seems to work
  558. # [18:31] <Philip`> I wish there was a nicer way to write RewriteRule when you don't actually care about the URIs
  559. # [18:31] * annevk3 serving lots of 403
  560. # [18:32] <Philip`> I suppose "RewriteRule . - [F]" is the most concise thing you can do
  561. # [18:32] <svl> The bot doesn't come from a single ip? In extreme cases I just toss them in iptables so I don't even have the apache hit.
  562. # [18:35] <annevk3> nope, lots of different IPs
  563. # [18:36] <Philip`> Whose IPs are they?
  564. # [18:37] * annevk3 opens access.log again
  565. # [18:39] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  566. # [18:39] <annevk3> 59.173.21.194, 82.161.78.95, 62.171.194.43, 80.255.43.29, etc.
  567. # [18:39] * Joins: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  568. # [18:43] <Philip`> Does not exist, haarlemwms.demon.nl, proxy-23.swgfl.ifl.net, does not exist
  569. # [18:43] <Philip`> Doesn't look like much of a pattern in there yet
  570. # [18:44] <svl> I've seen 62.171.194.43 legitimately browsing on my site
  571. # [18:44] <svl> (came in via google image search, loads css files and images, etc)
  572. # [18:45] <annevk3> 88.247.148.23
  573. # [18:46] <svl> 'course, since it's a proxy...
  574. # [18:46] <annevk3> 80.90.160.97
  575. # [18:46] <annevk3> 200.68.29.118
  576. # [18:47] <Philip`> dsl88-247-37911.ttnet.net.tr, does not exist, mail.tucapel.cl
  577. # [18:47] <annevk3> maybe they're all proxies in some way?
  578. # [18:48] <Philip`> Maybe it's a botnet trying to DDOS the spec tracker
  579. # [18:49] * Quits: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  580. # [18:50] <hsivonen> :-( making content-language non-conforming without changing the processing reqs seems impractical
  581. # [18:50] * weinig|lunch is now known as weinig
  582. # [18:51] <annevk3> Philip`, haha, nice try Mr. Last Week!
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  592. # [19:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the date microformat deviation from spec was probably related to something that Hixie dealt with in http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-November/017421.html
  593. # [19:30] <hsivonen> annevk3: why would you create a new Document object for document.innerHTML instead of using the one bound to document?
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  595. # [19:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: r2524 noted. thanks
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  648. # [22:49] <gsnedders> I am not hopeless. I am not hopeless. I am not hopeless. I am not hopeless.
  649. # [22:49] <gsnedders> If I say it enough I'll believe it!
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  652. # [23:03] <BenMillard> gsnedders, if you hope that you are not hopeless then you are hopeful. :)
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  667. # Session Close: Wed Dec 03 00:00:00 2008

The end :)