/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-12-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 04 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <Philip`> gsnedders: I suppose that would be reasonable
  4. # [00:03] <Philip`> gsnedders: I hope you'll be on IRC on Monday to remind me :-)
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  27. # [01:35] <ajnewbold> gsnedders: ahoy
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  112. # [07:37] <jwalden> "We think that developers will have an easier time building interoperable sites on top of IE8’s strong platform work (like [...] cross-domain requests (XDR) [...])."
  113. # [07:37] <jwalden> the sheer audacity
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  121. # [07:54] * olliej is now known as fakeolliej
  122. # [07:55] <BenMillard> jwalden, you're talking about the IE blog here? http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/12/03/compatibility-view-improvements-to-come-in-ie8.aspx
  123. # [07:56] <jwalden> yeah
  124. # [07:56] <jwalden> I added a comment to about that effect, too, except less exasperatedly-worded
  125. # [07:56] * jwalden neologizes a bit, and a bit more
  126. # [07:59] <BenMillard> "When users install Windows 7 Beta or the next IE8 update, they get a choice about opting-in to a list of sites that should be displayed in Compatibility View."
  127. # [08:01] <BenMillard> "Users who choose to get the list receive it via Windows Update packages, just like IE security updates."
  128. # [08:02] <BenMillard> "[...] the presence of a <META> tag / HTTP header “wins” [...]"
  129. # [08:03] <BenMillard> "In some cases, for a new browser, developers have to spend time to add a tag or header to make their sites compatible."
  130. # [08:04] <BenMillard> it's good that Microsoft are discussing this in detail in advance
  131. # [08:06] <BenMillard> oh, it names some sites: "[...] high-volume sites like facebook.com, myspace.com, bbc.co.uk, and cnn.com with pages that weren’t working for end-users with IE’s new standards compliant default."
  132. # [08:08] <BenMillard> "The most important thing we can do now is deliver better interoperability for a better web [...]"
  133. # [08:23] <jwalden> it's mostly just this-is-how-far-we'll-bend-over-backwards-for-sites-that-relied-on-our-bugs plus a little see-we're-trying-to-do-things-that-look-monopolistic
  134. # [08:23] <jwalden> which is all well and good, as far as that goes
  135. # [08:23] <jwalden> er
  136. # [08:24] <jwalden> look-not-monopolistic
  137. # [08:27] * hsivonen wonders what the sites using XDR will be interoperable with
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  139. # [08:37] <hsivonen> hmm. the opt-in list will be fun for QA
  140. # [08:38] <hsivonen> (both at Microsoft and at the sites affected)
  141. # [08:41] <zcorpan> i guess it means authors will have to make sure it works in both IE8 standards mode and IE8 compat mode even if they only want to target standards mode
  142. # [08:43] <BenMillard> zcorpan, perhaps such sites are expected to provide "a <META> tag / HTTP header"?
  143. # [08:46] <zcorpan> BenMillard: does it override the user's opt-in list?
  144. # [08:50] <BenMillard> zcorpan, apparently "[...] the presence of a <META> tag / HTTP header “wins” [...]"
  145. # [08:51] <BenMillard> zcorpan, you can read the whole thing: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/12/03/compatibility-view-improvements-to-come-in-ie8.aspx
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  147. # [09:03] <BenMillard> krijn, could simple mentions of domain names like example.com and subdomain.example.com get linkified in the logs?
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  159. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: very cool to see your HTML5 Parsing in Gecko news
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  162. # [10:28] <gsnedders> Philip`: I will be, provided I'm on a NXEC train (and not some temp. hired one without wifi)
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  168. # [10:56] <krijn> BenMillard: probably, yes :)
  169. # [10:56] <krijn> Got a nice regex for that?
  170. # [10:57] <BenMillard> krijn, I don't
  171. # [10:57] <krijn> Me neither
  172. # [10:58] <BenMillard> krijn, TLDs are standardised, and they are preceeded by a dot when used in a simple domain
  173. # [10:58] <BenMillard> so if you have a list of valid TLDs, maybe you can use that as the start of a RegEx?
  174. # [10:59] <BenMillard> supporting ccTLDs could be a real chore, but .com and .org and simple ones like that would still help
  175. # [10:59] <krijn> Imho it's easier to select the foo.com, right click, Go to web address
  176. # [10:59] <krijn> But that's just me :)
  177. # [10:59] <krijn> Auto linking example.com doesn't make sense
  178. # [11:00] <krijn> And that's probably the most used one
  179. # [11:01] <BenMillard> krijn, it's your choice, of course
  180. # [11:01] <krijn> Trying to convince you a bit, since I'm lazy
  181. # [11:01] <zcorpan> i think it'd result in a fair amount of mislinking
  182. # [11:01] <krijn> Yeah
  183. # [11:01] <jwalden> you could make a regex from http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/netwerk/dns/src/effective_tld_names.dat?raw=1
  184. # [11:02] <krijn> I don't think it's worth it
  185. # [11:02] <jwalden> which would be as accurate as it gets these days
  186. # [11:02] <jwalden> I agree
  187. # [11:02] <jwalden> :-)
  188. # [11:02] <BenMillard> fair enough, was just an idea :)
  189. # [11:02] <krijn> Great idea btw! ;)
  190. # [11:02] <BenMillard> krijn, did you see I made demos for some other IRC log pages?: http://projectcerbera.com/!dev/irc-logs/
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  192. # [11:03] <krijn> Yeah, very colorish :)
  193. # [11:03] <BenMillard> krijn, as before, take as much/little as you want from them
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  195. # [11:03] <BenMillard> having a consistent header and footer across all IRC log pages, and better navigation between pages, seemed like an improvement
  196. # [11:04] <krijn> I agree
  197. # [11:04] <krijn> This would certainly double the readers :)
  198. # [11:06] <BenMillard> lol, wow that'd be 8!! :P
  199. # [11:07] <krijn> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/stats/usage_200812.html#TOPURLS
  200. # [11:07] <krijn> It's one of my top urls though
  201. # [11:08] <krijn> (Could mean the rest is even more shitty, but I'll try not to think about that case)
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  204. # [11:09] <BenMillard> krijn, wow it looks like individual pages of logs are more popular than any other page on your site!
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  206. # [11:09] <BenMillard> krijn, so the /irc-logs/ area must dominate your traffic?
  207. # [11:09] <krijn> Yeah, it does
  208. # [11:10] <krijn> But I think that has to do with forwarding /irc-logs/htmlwg/ to the most recent day
  209. # [11:10] <krijn> And that /irc-logs/htmlwg/ is linked from w3.org
  210. # [11:10] <krijn> html-wg even
  211. # [11:10] <krijn> From http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ I mean
  212. # [11:10] <BenMillard> nice! I hadn't realised that linked to your logs.
  213. # [11:11] <krijn> Yay for my PR :p
  214. # [11:11] <BenMillard> I added navigation between pages after seeing Dan Connolly say what I'd been thinking for some time: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats/20081125#l-122
  215. # [11:11] <BenMillard> s/say/said/
  216. # [11:11] <krijn> Yeah, prev/next day links would be handy
  217. # [11:12] <annevk3> should be quite easy to make too...
  218. # [11:12] <krijn> Not for me ;)
  219. # [11:15] <krijn> Could do some loops, currentday - 1, see if that logfile exists.. If yes, make a link, if not, check currentday - 2, etc
  220. # [11:15] <krijn> Same for nextday
  221. # [11:15] <krijn> With a max of 10 loops or something
  222. # [11:15] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@dhcp-247-242.mag.keio.ac.jp) ("sex break")
  223. # [11:19] <BenMillard> krijn, sounds like that would handle changes in the month, too
  224. # [11:19] <krijn> Yeah, that's what it is for, mostly
  225. # [11:20] <BenMillard> neato
  226. # [11:20] <krijn> Or I could list all logfiles, sort them, pick the current one - 1, and the current one + 1
  227. # [11:20] <krijn> (Which is what I do on the homepage)
  228. # [11:25] * Joins: yecril71 (n=giecrilj@piekna-gts.2a.pl)
  229. # [11:26] <yecril71> I would rather recommend a DOM transformation to convert a set of check boxes to a drop-down list.
  230. # [11:26] <yecril71> That, of course, relies on innerHTML to work.
  231. # [11:27] <yecril71> Structured approaches work better with structured languages than regular expressions.
  232. # [11:28] <BenMillard> yecril71, where is that being done?
  233. # [11:28] <yecril71> Regular expressions are for simple validation, and for languages that have no public DOM.
  234. # [11:29] <yecril71> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 07:48:15 +0000 (UTC)
  235. # [11:29] * Quits: Lachy_ (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  236. # [11:29] <yecril71> Subject: Re: [whatwg] [WF2] action="mailto:" - encoding spaces
  237. # [11:30] <BenMillard> oh, an e-mail on a list, not what krijn and I were talking about. ok :)
  238. # [11:30] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-7f0d96187c7099ee)
  239. # [11:30] <krijn> Not really, no :)
  240. # [11:30] <krijn> A mailing list is so outdated!
  241. # [11:31] <krijn> (And hard to keep up with, as well)
  242. # [11:31] <BenMillard> krijn, I'm off for dinner now, then I'll resume neatening up my idea for the "day" log. Kudos for being so open to suggestions.
  243. # [11:31] * Quits: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  244. # [11:31] <krijn> Np, sorry I'm not using everything immediately :)
  245. # [11:32] <yecril71> Absolutely, it is an antique way of getting things done, and extremely inefficient.
  246. # [11:34] <yecril71> I would still keep replying on the list but my remarks have been criticised as unintelligible and unconstructive.
  247. # [11:34] <yecril71> So Hixie told me I should rather interrupt your discussions on IRC.
  248. # [11:42] <jgraham> IRC: where being unintelligible and unconstructive is considered normal
  249. # [11:44] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  250. # [11:44] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  251. # [11:45] * jgraham notes that listing "The body element" under "obsolete elements" is a bit confusing
  252. # [11:47] * annevk3 notes that it has been noted already
  253. # [11:49] * jgraham notes that he expected it had already been noted but thought it was worth noting again just in case
  254. # [11:53] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-10-119.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  255. # [11:55] * krijn scratches his notes
  256. # [11:57] * annevk3 notes he would have noted that he expected jgraham would have noted it already, but wanted to spare people on the amount of notes
  257. # [11:57] <krijn> Duly noted
  258. # [11:58] <hsivonen> thanks for the kind comments on the Gecko build
  259. # [12:00] <jgraham> Hmm am I misreading the spec... it looks as if </br> should create a <br> start tag
  260. # [12:00] <zcorpan> jgraham: that's correct
  261. # [12:01] <roc> hsivonen: context?
  262. # [12:01] <hsivonen> roc: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/html5-gecko-build/
  263. # [12:01] <jgraham> zcorpan: Did that change recently?
  264. # [12:01] <zcorpan> jgraham: no
  265. # [12:01] * Quits: doublec (n=Chris_Do@118-92-197-148.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  266. # [12:01] * jgraham wishes for a way to find out when a section of the spec last changed
  267. # [12:02] * Joins: doublec (n=Chris_Do@118-92-197-148.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  268. # [12:02] <roc> cool
  269. # [12:02] <roc> ooh, you're supporting Hixie's SVG and MathML inclusion?
  270. # [12:02] <roc> that'll put the cat among the pigeons
  271. # [12:03] <hsivonen> roc: thanks. yes, SVG and MathML are supported
  272. # [12:03] <doublec> amazon S3 came up as an example during the 'video element and cross domain' debate as a service that doesn't support access controls
  273. # [12:03] <doublec> it turns out it does provide the functionality to add custom headers
  274. # [12:03] <doublec> so as long as the headers don't need dynamic data, you could use it to host cross domain files
  275. # [12:04] <roc> intriguing
  276. # [12:04] <annevk3> Access-Control might need dynamic data if the video is personalized based on a cookie
  277. # [12:04] <doublec> yes, true
  278. # [12:04] <annevk3> but if it's simple storage Access-Control-Allow-Origin:* would suffice
  279. # [12:05] * annevk3 doesn't really know what S3 allows for
  280. # [12:05] <doublec> only setting a header and string value when uploading the file, which gets served as an http header when a client downloads it
  281. # [12:06] <annevk3> so you can't really have personalized video hosting there anyway
  282. # [12:06] <doublec> correct
  283. # [12:11] * zcorpan tests hsivonen's gecko build
  284. # [12:11] <zcorpan> seems to work :)
  285. # [12:12] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://simon.html5.org/articles/mobile-results is rendered in quirks mode
  286. # [12:14] <zcorpan> or is document.compatMode lying?
  287. # [12:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan: oops. it always renders in the quirks mode.
  288. # [12:15] <zcorpan> heh
  289. # [12:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: blog post fixed. thanks
  290. # [12:23] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-10-119.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  291. # [12:25] <yecril71> MSDN says: The value of a form control is encoded so that spaces and special characters are converted to their ASCII equivalents.
  292. # [12:25] <zcorpan> pages seem to render surprisingly well in quirks mode
  293. # [12:26] <yecril71> Guess what the ASCII equivalent for a space should be, given that a space is a valid ASCII character :-)
  294. # [12:27] <zcorpan> hsivonen: some pages suffer from the FOUC
  295. # [12:27] <zcorpan> e.g. csszengarden
  296. # [12:28] <yecril71> The example is oPhrase=My%20favorite%20color%20is%20plaid so that must be %20.
  297. # [12:28] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  298. # [12:28] <yecril71> In particular, converting a space to + is not mentioned at all.
  299. # [12:30] <Lachy> hsivonen, in the HTML5 gecko build, there's a strange bug with the handling of numeric character references
  300. # [12:31] * Joins: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  301. # [12:31] <Lachy> hsivonen, see the To: field on this post for an example: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Dec/0074.html
  302. # [12:32] <Lachy> hsivonen, note how it says: "HTML WG <&#0119;&#0051;&#0046;&#0111;&#0114;..." whereas the other email addresses, which are also in the source as char refs, display proplerly
  303. # [12:34] * Quits: doublec (n=Chris_Do@118-92-197-148.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("ChatZilla 0.9.79-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  304. # [12:35] <zcorpan> Lachy: if i paste the source into the live dom viewer then it doesn't happen
  305. # [12:37] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de)
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  307. # [12:50] * Quits: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.12)
  308. # [12:50] <yecril71> IE7, however, converts a space to + and encodes + as %2B as required.
  309. # [12:55] <Lachy> hsivonen, here's a minimified demo showing the bug http://tinyurl.com/5z6phg
  310. # [12:57] <Lachy> hsivonen, note that the behaviour seems to change depending on the length of the source code before it. i.e. if you remove one line of source code, it's likely to display a different set of character references wrongly
  311. # [13:02] <zcorpan> Hixie: at least 1 web developer thinks <iframe seamless> is a good thing :) http://friendlybit.com/html/html-includes/
  312. # [13:10] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-84.bredband.comhem.se)
  313. # [13:22] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@X089251.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  314. # [13:25] <yecril71> I wonder if it is appropriate for the user agent to display a HTML document upon navigating to a mailto: URI.
  315. # [13:26] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p4200-ipbf2306marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  316. # [13:26] <yecril71> I think Lynx does that.
  317. # [13:28] <roc> Firefox can do that
  318. # [13:28] <yecril71> I also thing inappropriate appearance directives for FORM controls should be ignored.
  319. # [13:28] <roc> a Web app can register a page as the mailto: protocol handler
  320. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> yecril71: my Lynx launches some curses-based interactive app for actually sending mail
  321. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> or maybe it's built into Lynx
  322. # [13:34] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  323. # [13:34] <annevk3> http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2008/12/srt-subtitles-with-html5-video.html
  324. # [13:34] * Quits: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  325. # [13:34] <annevk3> fail
  326. # [13:35] <annevk3> (not the post)
  327. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> annevk3: the jquery.srt doesn't work as expected?
  328. # [13:36] <annevk3> MikeSmith, the approach to subtitles was supposed to be subtitles embedded in the video stream, rather than some ECMAScript hack
  329. # [13:37] <MikeSmith> I see
  330. # [13:37] <annevk3> hopefully it will work long term, but I'm sceptic
  331. # [13:41] <krijn> Subtitles/captioning embedded in videos doesn't work, people want them to be indexable right now as well..
  332. # [13:42] <hsivonen> annevk3: I had a glass half-empty feeling, too :-/
  333. # [13:43] <krijn> http://www.minvws.nl/en/video/ also uses SRT afaik
  334. # [13:44] <hsivonen> for the record, I think SRT is the way to go--but as a built-in feature without JS
  335. # [13:44] * Joins: heycam` (n=cam@203-217-87-125.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  336. # [13:45] <hsivonen> when it comes to captioning, SRT vs. anything fancy is even more drastic than 80% of use cases with 20% the effort
  337. # [13:45] <krijn> Something like <video subs=foo.srt> you mean?
  338. # [13:46] <hsivonen> krijn: or SRT-equivant data in the media stream
  339. # [13:46] <krijn> Or subs=foo (for mookid)
  340. # [13:47] <hsivonen> SRT vs. fancy is probably closer to 99% of use cases for 1% of effort
  341. # [13:47] <hsivonen> s/equivant/equivalent/
  342. # [13:49] <Lachy> SRT may be ok for some simple captioning/subtitling, but it does have a lot of limitiations
  343. # [13:50] <hsivonen> Lachy: right, I didn't say 100% of use cases :-)
  344. # [13:50] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-7f0d96187c7099ee) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  345. # [13:51] <Lachy> Joe Clark was advocating open captions on ALA recently, based on the limitations (especially fonts) of closed caption formats
  346. # [13:51] <Lachy> another alternative is the bitmap subtitle formats, such as those used on DVD and Blu-ray
  347. # [13:52] <hsivonen> Joe Clark may have unusually strong sensitivities to getting particular fonts displayed
  348. # [13:52] <Philip`> Would plain transcripts (not temporally linked to the video at all) satisfy many of the use cases, with much reduced effort?
  349. # [13:52] <Lachy> he has a point about using fonts that are optimised for readability on screen
  350. # [13:53] <hsivonen> Lachy: and OSs don't ship with any screen-readable fonts?
  351. # [13:53] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  352. # [13:53] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@203-217-87-125.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  353. # [13:53] <Lachy> hsivonen, I don't know.
  354. # [13:54] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@210-84-37-7.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  355. # [13:54] <jmb> Philip`: they may well do. although, there's loads of non-verbal stuff in video which should probably be conveyed somehow
  356. # [13:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: well, the TV and cinema people have assumed you need at least the SRT level of features
  357. # [13:55] <Philip`> Lachy: Does he only care about accessibility of professionally-produced videos, and not care about other people producing videos when they don't know anything about fonts and don't have any installed and decide to go with Comic Sans because it looks nice and friendly?
  358. # [13:55] <Lachy> anyway, I think the ultimate solution would be to use text-based subtitle format with the ability to embed custom fonts within the video container
  359. # [13:55] <Lachy> Philip`, for amature videos, I'm sure he's aware that there isn't much chance of getting people to use anything much more complex than SRT, if they'll even use that
  360. # [13:56] <Philip`> hsivonen: The TV and cinema people have a vested interest in not producing a solution that removes the video component :-)
  361. # [13:56] <hsivonen> for now, I'd settle for SRT rendered in white with black outline near the bottom of the frame rendered in my browser-defalt sans-serif font
  362. # [13:56] * Joins: heycam` (n=cam@124-168-123-82.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  363. # [13:58] <Lachy> hsivonen, sure, but it would also need to support basic positioing, so that it can be moved to the top to avoid overlapping other on-screen text
  364. # [13:58] * hsivonen notes that Joe Clark relies on the user's computer having fonts for his blog instead of sending huge Microsoft Publisher-created bitmaps
  365. # [13:59] <Lachy> that's because using bitmaps like that would be less accessible than using even poor quality fonts
  366. # [14:00] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-145-163.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  367. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> I notice that the Moz and Webkit default stylesheets use -moz-padding-start: and -webkit-padding-start: instead of just padding: ... wondering why
  368. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> also -moz-margin-start and -webkit-margin-start, and -moz-border-start
  369. # [14:27] <mstange> MikeSmith: https://developer.mozilla.org/En/CSS/-moz-padding-start
  370. # [14:27] <MikeSmith> mstange: thanks
  371. # [14:28] <annevk3> yeah, those properties should just be standardized
  372. # [14:29] <annevk3> otoh, if all those properties end up in browsers and tools and such, authors might get confused quite a bit
  373. # [14:30] <yecril71> The encoding algorithm for mailto links, as specified, consists of two steps.
  374. # [14:30] <yecril71> The first step is encoding the control values normally, and the second step is to transform all occurrences of + to %20.
  375. # [14:31] <yecril71> This is equivalent to making an exception in the first algorithm.
  376. # [14:33] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, your document could convert "-start" to "-left" and "-end" to "-right" in such properties, then remove the vendor prefix, and maybe say somewhere it assumes dir="ltr"?
  377. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> BenMillard: the default browser stylesheets don't actually use -end
  378. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> would it be wrong to just convert it to plain "padding" ?
  379. # [14:36] <BenMillard> MikeSmith, moz-padding-start is equivalent to padding-left when dir="ltr", afaict.
  380. # [14:36] <BenMillard> s/moz-padding-start/-moz-padding-start/
  381. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> I see
  382. # [14:38] <yecril71> It seems "jump to step" would be more readable if the steps were both numbered (for easy location) and labeled (for remembering what they do).
  383. # [14:38] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  384. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> BenMillard: so I guess I'll have my script convert those to padding-left and maybe put a note somewhere explaining
  385. # [14:41] <annevk3> rtl people could claim you're biased
  386. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> annevk3: hmm, so maybe I'll just keep it -vendor-padding-start , with "vendor" in ital
  387. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah, that seems better
  388. # [14:44] <BenMillard> annevk3 & MikeSmith, the document is written in English. :)
  389. # [14:45] <annevk3> BenMillard, what it describes should still be sort of i18n compatible
  390. # [14:45] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@118-92-197-148.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  391. # [14:45] <annevk3> BenMillard, just like we care about accessibility and such :p
  392. # [14:45] <annevk3> ;)
  393. # [14:45] <MikeSmith> annevk3: btw, what about "-appearance" ? any move to standardize that?
  394. # [14:45] <annevk3> that's in a standard, but the standard is not that clear
  395. # [14:45] <annevk3> css3-ui
  396. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> OK
  397. # [14:48] <BenMillard> annevk3, versions which are translated into languages with other writing directions could translate the CSS samples accordingly.
  398. # [14:48] <annevk3> the CSS samples are UA default style sheet rules...
  399. # [14:48] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks for the minimized test case
  400. # [14:49] <annevk3> so not really samples
  401. # [14:50] <hsivonen> hmm. that's a cross-language bug
  402. # [14:50] <hsivonen> fortunately
  403. # [14:51] <BenMillard> annevk3, I'm not sure that distinction is helpful when a reader sees something which look like CSS sample CSS but which uses propeties they don't know about...but it's Mike's call. :)
  404. # [14:51] <BenMillard> s/CSS sample CSS/a CSS sample/
  405. # [14:53] <annevk3> it's not a sample
  406. # [14:54] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-087-110.nc.res.rr.com)
  407. # [14:55] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-23ffec6992b3c8c8)
  408. # [15:04] <annevk3> "Look ma! No namespace declarations!" :p
  409. # [15:04] <annevk3> -- http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/svg-and-mathml-in-html.html
  410. # [15:07] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  411. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> hmm, looking for a default Opera stylesheet but not finding one
  412. # [15:10] <annevk3> there's not really such a thing
  413. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  414. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> I see other stuff in /usr/share/opera/styles
  415. # [15:18] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-23ffec6992b3c8c8) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  425. # [16:31] <annevk3> "The net result of the 3.0 generalizations is that Python 3.0 runs the pystone benchmark around 10% slower than Python 2.5. Most likely the biggest cause is the removal of special-casing for small integers. There’s room for improvement, but it will happen after 3.0 is released!"
  426. # [16:31] <annevk3> guess we better not port html5lib just yet
  427. # [16:31] <annevk3> -- http://docs.python.org/dev/3.0/whatsnew/3.0.html
  428. # [16:32] <rubys> unicode is much better in python 3
  429. # [16:33] <annevk3> sure
  430. # [16:33] <rubys> in any case, I'd like to see hsivonen's work be used to bootstrap a C/C++ implementation with a Python binding
  431. # [16:33] * annevk3 doesn't like the new print either
  432. # [16:33] <annevk3> I'd love that too
  433. # [16:33] <rubys> yea, the new print sucks, but isn't a big deal
  434. # [16:33] <rubys> I mostly use print for debugging
  435. # [16:34] * jgraham is very happy about better unicode handling
  436. # [16:35] <jgraham> although html5lib has some bugs that only occur on UCS2 or UCS4 builds
  437. # [16:35] <tthorsen> I think the new print looks ok, but I haven't tried it. What's the problem with it?
  438. # [16:35] <rubys> parens are required
  439. # [16:35] * tthorsen likes parens
  440. # [16:36] <jgraham> I have a hard time complaining about two extra characters
  441. # [16:36] <jgraham> I guess it may be a small usability loss
  442. # [16:36] <annevk3> I don't :) but rubys is right, it's not crucial
  443. # [16:37] <rubys> In ruby, p is a function that can be used without parens, and equates roughly to python's print(repr(...)). Very handy for debugging.
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  445. # [16:37] <jgraham> rubys: Can't most ruby functions be used without parens?
  446. # [16:37] <rubys> yes
  447. # [16:38] * jgraham generally likes parens around functions
  448. # [16:39] <jgraham> Or at least I found it weird when I tried Haskell. Although that could be other things too
  449. # [16:39] <rubys> the one case where it is handy is functions that return None (or nil, or void or whatever) can be used as statements.
  450. # [16:40] * jcranmer is now known as jcranmer|transit
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  456. # [16:49] <rubys> hsivonen: take a look at http://rails.intertwingly.net/blog/index.html using your html5 parser enhanced minefield
  457. # [16:50] <rubys> The whatwg logo is borked
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  462. # [17:08] <hsivonen> rubys: That bug has been fixed on trunk. It was a layout layer problem.
  463. # [17:08] <rubys> cool
  464. # [17:09] <hsivonen> rubys: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=459817
  465. # [17:11] <rubys> oh, cool, I'm the testcase! :-)
  466. # [17:15] <Philip`> Python 2.x lets you say "print x," to prevent it printing a newline at the end; can you do something similar in Python 3.0 if print is using standard function call syntax instead?
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  468. # [17:16] <tthorsen> print(x, end=""), I think
  469. # [17:17] <Philip`> That's quite horrid
  470. # [17:17] * Philip` prefers it when programming languages are updated to make it easier to write things, not harder
  471. # [17:17] <rubys> http://docs.python.org/dev/3.0/whatsnew/3.0.html#print-is-a-function
  472. # [17:20] * gsnedders should probably care about supporting Python 3 now
  473. # [17:20] <gsnedders> does html5lib work at all?
  474. # [17:21] <jgraham> gsnedders: No
  475. # [17:21] <tthorsen> Philip`: I did not know about the "print x," in 2.X. That's pretty weird syntax - even if it is easy to write. I think the new syntax is easier to understand for people who are not Python wizards
  476. # [17:21] <jgraham> That is pretty low on my priority list though, after "stop hunderds of testcases failing"
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  479. # [17:24] * jgraham made a start on the ferry but has some way to go
  480. # [17:24] <jgraham> Like before it was over a thousand testcases
  481. # [17:25] <Philip`> tthorsen: It isn't any easier for those people to write - they'll do "print('hello')" and not want a newline, then they'll see that it adds a newline, and then they'll either give up or they'll have to look in the documentation, which will then tell them "write 'print "hello",' to suppress the newline" or "write 'print("hello", end="")' to suppress the newline"
  482. # [17:25] <Philip`> so it's equally a pain both ways
  483. # [17:25] <jgraham> sys.stdout.write("hello") works I guess
  484. # [17:26] <rubys> only if you import sys :-)
  485. # [17:26] <Philip`> but with the new way, when you're feeling very frustrated at the lack of a decent debugger and are trying to sprinkle a load of print commands throughout your code to work out what's going on, you'll have to type more characters on every line and you will get even more frustrated :-)
  486. # [17:27] <tthorsen> yeah. I was thinking about reading code that others had written. If I saw "print x," somewhere I would probably not even notice the ',' and I would certainly not guess that it was for suppressing the newline
  487. # [17:28] <jgraham> import sys; p = sys.stdout.write
  488. # [17:28] <tthorsen> If I was in charge, print would not output newlines at all. I don't mind putting a \n at the end of my strings.
  489. # [17:28] <tthorsen> s/newlines/automatic newlines/
  490. # [17:29] <Philip`> The rationale at http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3105/ seems to be concerned entirely with relatively uncommon advanced requirements, and totally ignores the basic "I just want to print some text" use case
  491. # [17:30] <Philip`> tthorsen: Recent versions of Perl attempt to solve that problem by having 'print' which does no newlines, and 'say' which adds one automatically
  492. # [17:30] <rubys> That's Python for you: one size fits all. If you want a language which cottons to use cases (at the expense of consistency), consider Perl or Ruby.
  493. # [17:31] <annevk3> I very much like significant whitespace though
  494. # [17:33] <Philip`> I think the main reason I use Python nowadays is ctypes, because I can't anything that works that well in Perl
  495. # [17:33] <Philip`> and if I'm writing a little bit of code that requires ctypes, I might as well write the rest of the program in Python because that's easier than mixing languages
  496. # [17:33] <tthorsen> annevk3: I'd actually prefer c-style { and }. The whitespace blocks are okay until you want to refactor a 3000 line program. Moving and reindenting big blocks of code feels dangerous when the indentation actually matters.
  497. # [17:33] <annevk3> I don't write 3000 line programs
  498. # [17:34] <Philip`> $ wc -l html5parser.py
  499. # [17:34] <Philip`> 2169 html5parser.py
  500. # [17:34] <Philip`> It's close :-p
  501. # [17:35] * hsivonen wonders if PyDev supports all the eclipse refactoring goodness for Python
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  523. # [19:29] <Philip`> When html5lib's sanitizer says things like re.match("^(\s*[-\w]+\s*:\s*[^:;]*(;|$))*$", style) isn't that, like, totally wrong, because it needs escaped backslashes or needs to be r"..."?
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  525. # [19:30] <Philip`> Oh, maybe not - it seems Python treats "\w\s" identically to "\\w\\s"
  526. # [19:31] * Joins: smerp][ (n=smerp@66.192.95.199)
  527. # [19:31] <Philip`> (Seems fragile to rely on that, though)
  528. # [19:33] <Dashiva> I never saw a reason not to use raw strings for regexps
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  533. # [19:40] <Philip`> For today's exciting "you have two problems" quiz: How do you make re.match('^(\s*[-\w]+\s*:\s*[^:;]*(;|$))*$', 'x: y; ' * 20) not take a probably-exponential amount of time to run?
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  535. # [19:42] <Philip`> Bonus points if the solution is still adequately fast when the input is ('x: y; ' * 20)+'x'
  536. # [19:42] <Dashiva> Could you put \s inside the [^:;]?
  537. # [19:43] <Dashiva> Not sure what you're matching exactly
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  540. # [19:44] <Philip`> Dashiva: It's trying to sanitize style attribute values
  541. # [19:45] <Philip`> so it's matching "x: y; x: y" and "x: y; x: y;" (with various whitespace, and limitations on 'x' and 'y')
  542. # [19:45] <Philip`> and if it fails to match when it reaches the end, it apparently does a huge amount of backtracking
  543. # [19:46] <Dashiva> This part here seems like the problem as far as I can tell: \s*[^:;]*
  544. # [19:46] <Dashiva> Otherwise there isn't much to backtrack on
  545. # [19:47] <Dashiva> Although that wouldn't stop it from trying, would it...
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  547. # [19:48] <Philip`> Hmm, that seems a good point - that's where it's going to get the exponential number of matches from
  548. # [19:49] <Dashiva> Could you just remove the \s part? Since it'd be part of the class anyway
  549. # [19:50] <Philip`> Yep, that's what I tried and it seems to make it go fast
  550. # [19:51] <hsivonen> http://delicious.com/url/d01372fa73da4044019a8ce733974a5e
  551. # [19:51] <hsivonen> tagged lol, omg, wtf
  552. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> "it is becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish W3C specs from Onion articles"
  553. # [19:55] <jcranmer> Philip`: regular expressions are not NP-hard
  554. # [19:55] <jcranmer> well, PCRE are
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  556. # [19:58] <Philip`> jcranmer: That doesn't stop implementations sometimes taking exponential time to execute them
  557. # [19:59] <jcranmer> it depends on whether or not you want to refer to subgroups or just match
  558. # [20:00] <Philip`> jcranmer: Just matching, but in an implementation that does backtracking rather than compiling to a DFA or whatever silly thing computer scientists say you should do
  559. # [20:01] <jcranmer> nondeterministic fininte automotan implicitly constructing the DFA
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  563. # [20:07] <jcranmer> Philip`: simple way to do it is this
  564. # [20:08] <jcranmer> get rid of the outermost * and just match multiple times :-)
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  589. # [21:25] <Philip`> Hmm, Python's regexp engine is dumber than Perl's
  590. # [21:26] <Philip`> re.match('^(a|a)*$', ('a' * 21) + 'b') takes forever, whereas (("a" x 1000)."b") =~ /^(a|aa)*$/ is instantaneous
  591. # [21:26] <Philip`> Uh
  592. # [21:26] <Philip`> I meant (("a" x 1000)."b") =~ /^(a|a)*$/
  593. # [21:28] <Dashiva> That's because perl cheats
  594. # [21:29] <Philip`> "Cheat" is just a term that means your opponent is being cleverer than you
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  602. # [21:56] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Then all optimizations are cheats
  603. # [21:56] <Dashiva> Not all of them, just the ones that are cheats
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  605. # [21:57] <Hixie> shepazu: specifically number 2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html
  606. # [21:58] <Hixie> shepazu: (that e-mail is sorted in the order of what would most help html5, from most helpful to least helpful)
  607. # [21:58] <Philip`> Hixie: Did you mean those last two lines in #html-wg?
  608. # [21:58] <Hixie> er yes
  609. # [21:58] <Hixie> thanks
  610. # [22:00] <annevk3> rubys, if Decimal is serialized to a string, does it include the m at the end?
  611. # [22:00] * annevk3 wonders if there's some way to detect the difference between a decimal and float
  612. # [22:04] <annevk3> some example in http://intertwingly.net/stories/2008/09/20/estest.html suggests not
  613. # [22:07] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
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  618. # [22:12] <rubys> annevk3: the current thinking is to *not* serialize it with an m
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  620. # [22:13] <rubys> annevk3: you there?
  621. # [22:13] <annevk3> yeah
  622. # [22:13] <annevk3> had some issues
  623. # [22:14] <rubys> just wondering why you want to tell the difference between decimal and number?
  624. # [22:14] <annevk3> seems it would be annoying if you ever wanted to extend e.g. JSON
  625. # [22:14] <rubys> JSON is very specific: 3.1m would be a syntax error
  626. # [22:14] <annevk3> hence "extend"
  627. # [22:14] <rubys> extending JSON would be very hard given that there are a number of implementations in a number of languages.
  628. # [22:15] <annevk3> but maybe it's ok, I haven't really thought long about it
  629. # [22:15] <rubys> the thinking is that perhaps someday there would be a "use decimal" and the JSON parser would produce decimal quantities when parsing JSON
  630. # [22:15] <annevk3> you'd think that be true for XML too, and yet they shipped XML 1.0 5ed a few days ago
  631. # [22:15] <Philip`> annevk3: Just write it as a JSON string, and the consumer can decide that they want to parse it as a (decimal) number
  632. # [22:16] <rubys> Philip`: +1
  633. # [22:16] <annevk3> true
  634. # [22:16] <rubys> The question is: if somebody puts 1.1 in JSON, do they mean 1.100000000000000088817841970012523 (which is what you get with number) or 1.1 (which is what you get with decimal)?
  635. # [22:17] <Hixie> annevk3: JSON has no defined error handling, so extending it would be a huge amount of work
  636. # [22:18] <annevk3> and yet people want it in all kinds of APIs
  637. # [22:36] <annevk3> Hixie, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#textFieldSelection never happened "When we define HTMLTextAreaElement and HTMLInputElement we will have to add the IDL given below to both of their IDLs."
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  639. # [22:44] <Hixie> there's an XXX in both of those sections about it
  640. # [22:45] <annevk3> k
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The end :)