/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-12-06 / end

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  52. # [03:09] <Hixie> aboodman: no thoughts at all until now. seems like something that would be interesting as a separate web apps spec. I'd be concerned about doing any crypto anything over HTTP.
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  81. # [07:41] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: your definition of doctype doesn't match the spec
  82. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: which part doesn't match?
  83. # [07:41] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: the spec allows whitespace before the '>'
  84. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  85. # [07:42] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: can't you copy the spec's definition whole-sale? it's less verbose now
  86. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: maybe. for now, I've just added "\s+"
  87. # [07:43] <zcorpan_> shouldn't it be \s*
  88. # [07:43] <zcorpan_> ?
  89. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> yeah, \s*
  90. # [07:49] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: "Non-void elements have an end tag to indicate where they end." -- foreign self-closing elements don't have an end tag
  91. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: thanks -- OK, will fix that now
  92. # [07:53] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: "Void elements that are not from the MathML namespace" doesn't make sense since the list of void elements only includes elements from the HTML namespace
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  94. # [07:55] * MikeSmith looks now
  95. # [08:00] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: the example on CDATA section doesn't need a CDATA section -- it doesn't contain any < or &
  96. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah, I know. but I copied that straight from the MathML spec.. that's the example they have in there. Not sure why they're using that as an example
  97. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> maybe I can revise it to add a < or & into it?
  98. # [08:02] <zcorpan_> if it would make sense, otherwise perhaps come up with some other example :) also show an equivalent example that uses entities instead
  99. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: OK, I've added to my TODO list. I think I might ask the MathML WG to add those to the examples in the MathML spec itself
  100. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> if they don't want to, I guess I'll just invent some
  101. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> but since CDATA sections are only allowed with MathML content, and I don't know anything about MathML, I'd rather they provide the examples
  102. # [08:07] * zcorpan_ finds an example on the web that uses <mi><![CDATA[&infinity;]]></mi> which probably isn't what was intended
  103. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: in the mean time, I did go ahead and check in your other changes
  104. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> e.g, at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#the-doctype
  105. # [08:08] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: cool
  106. # [08:08] <zcorpan_> "cdata" is so not searchable
  107. # [08:09] <MikeSmith> thanks, and keep them coming, when you find more
  108. # [08:09] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: ?
  109. # [08:09] <MikeSmith> searchable in what context
  110. # [08:09] <MikeSmith> ?
  111. # [08:09] <zcorpan_> it means 10 things so if i want to google for usage of cdata sections i get dtd fragments
  112. # [08:09] <zcorpan_> or attribute definitions
  113. # [08:09] <zcorpan_> or cdata elements
  114. # [08:09] <zcorpan_> etc
  115. # [08:09] <MikeSmith> ah
  116. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> you need some semantic web, man
  117. # [08:11] <zcorpan_> or google code search :)
  118. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> yeah, or MAMA!
  119. # [08:11] <zcorpan_> i haven't looked into how to use mama
  120. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> I would really like to have search access to mama
  121. # [08:12] <MikeSmith> blooberry: ↑
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  123. # [08:12] * blooberry looks
  124. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: you a pythonist? what's the best-practice way to remove leading/trailing whitespace from a string in python?
  125. # [08:13] <blooberry> mikesmith: 8-}
  126. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> blooberry: open data, brother. Lead by example!
  127. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> just giving a hard time
  128. # [08:13] <blooberry> mama currently mostly ignores cdata sections. *puts that on the to-do list*
  129. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> .me (re)finds .strip()
  130. # [08:15] <blooberry> mikesmith: I'm working on it. 8-} I need to do a current re-crawl of the URLs MAMA looked at last year first and improve the search perf.
  131. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> blooberry: you mostly still doing the work on it yourself, or you got some assistance now?
  132. # [08:16] <blooberry> it's all me still. 8-/
  133. # [08:16] <zcorpan_> StoreRaw("<ow:math><![CDATA[" & Replace(pText, "]]>", "]]&gt;") & "]]></ow:math>") -- that surely won't do what's intended
  134. # [08:16] <zcorpan_> as it happens i can't find a single valid use of cdata in mathml
  135. # [08:16] <blooberry> I'm adding new features though to the analysis script right now. Have any other requests?
  136. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> blooberry: nothing I can think of now
  137. # [08:17] <zcorpan_> blooberry: is it possible to do regexp search on the source markup?
  138. # [08:18] <blooberry> zcorpan_: no. It stores a greatly deflated version of the page right now.
  139. # [08:19] <zcorpan_> that's what Philip` usually does (http://philip.html5.org/data.html) and is basically what i would like to do most often
  140. # [08:19] <blooberry> The "manual" version of the analysis script can do regexp searching of all content though, but you are probably looking for regexp searching on a batch of pages, yes?
  141. # [08:19] <zcorpan_> yeah
  142. # [08:19] <zcorpan_> doesn't need to be a million pages
  143. # [08:20] <blooberry> yeah, I've thought of doing something like that for a much smaller subset
  144. # [08:20] <zcorpan_> consider it a feature request :)
  145. # [08:20] <blooberry> philip` is covering that for some values of smaller sets though already
  146. # [08:20] <blooberry> 8-}
  147. # [08:20] <zcorpan_> yeah but i hate to bother him all the time
  148. # [08:21] <zcorpan_> and his batch of pages is out of date :P
  149. # [08:21] <blooberry> so is mine, at the moment. 8-}
  150. # [08:22] <blooberry> (how "out of date" is his set?)
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  152. # [08:22] <zcorpan_> at least a year i think
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  154. # [08:22] <zcorpan_> but could be wrong
  155. # [08:22] <blooberry> about what mine is too.
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  157. # [08:23] <zcorpan_> <replacetoken><![CDATA[<math>]]></replacetoken>
  158. # [08:23] <zcorpan_> <replacevalue><![CDATA[<math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML">]]></replacevalue>
  159. # [08:23] <blooberry> I'd like to start a re-crawl by the new year, but it may not happen that soon. Should be january at the latest though.
  160. # [08:24] <zcorpan_> cool
  161. # [08:26] <blooberry> so, I'm contemplating having MAMA store some stats about replaced object dimensions, but I'm not sure I can come up with a solution that addresses interesting problems and is also a good storage compromise
  162. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: are those replacetoken examples good examples?
  163. # [08:28] <blooberry> and if I factor in resizing via CSS or (worse) Javascript, then the problem possibly becomes a silly proposition
  164. # [08:28] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: no, they're just interesting
  165. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> OK
  166. # [08:29] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: the code assumes that mathml markup thrown at it won't have the namespace declaration
  167. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> OK
  168. # [08:30] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: i recommend replacing the example with svg <script><![CDATA[... when svg is back in the spec
  169. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah, definitely
  170. # [08:33] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: a:-webkit-any-link translates to a:link, a:visited
  171. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: ah, OK
  172. # [08:34] * MikeSmith fixes now
  173. # [08:45] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: the <input> section would be more useful if split up to its type='' states
  174. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah, I think so. I guess I'll need to have the build script do that. It's too much of a mess to read through the way it is now.
  175. # [08:48] <zcorpan_> it looks like the schema treats them as different elements basically
  176. # [08:48] <BenMillard> the different states of <input> are more like different elements in the way they are used
  177. # [08:48] <BenMillard> oh, zcorpan_ types faster than me :P
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  179. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> IMHO, they should in fact have been different elements from the beginning. it's bad language design the way it is now
  180. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> the complexities of documenting it expose that
  181. # [08:50] <zcorpan_> html has lots of bad langauge design :)
  182. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> true
  183. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> but <input> sticks out like sore thumb, in its particular badness
  184. # [08:51] <zcorpan_> for your use case yes :)
  185. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: added to TODO list
  186. # [08:52] <zcorpan_> if you're writing html you're probably more concerned about <img alt> not taking markup
  187. # [08:52] <zcorpan_> it doesn't bother me so much (when writing markup) that <input type=image> and <input type=file> aren't different elements
  188. # [08:54] <zcorpan_> i wonder why map { display:inline } is in the style sheet
  189. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: moz stylsheet has:
  190. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> html, div, map, dt, isindex, form {
  191. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> display: block;
  192. # [08:57] <zcorpan_> so they had it as block and then changed it to inline? or is it different in quirks mode?
  193. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: dunno, webkit has it as inline, moz has a block
  194. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> as far as I can see
  195. # [08:59] <zcorpan_> oh. in moz it's inline in quirks
  196. # [09:00] <zcorpan_> in webkit it's always inline. still, i wonder why webkit has the declaration -- it's inline by default
  197. # [09:01] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: the spec has class="bad example" or some such in a different style than normal examples
  198. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: OK, will take a look
  199. # [09:02] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: should say that noscript is only allowed in HTML
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  201. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: you mean as opposed to MathML or SVG?
  202. # [09:04] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: as opposed to XHTML
  203. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> ah
  204. # [09:05] <zcorpan_> hmm, webkit's default style for <q> doesn't handle nested <q>s well
  205. # [09:05] <zcorpan_> in fact i think webkit doesn't support open-quote etc at all
  206. # [09:06] <BenMillard> zcorpan_, I've seen sites which set quotes on <q> via q:before and q:after, which might be due to that?
  207. # [09:07] <BenMillard> (the content property via those selectors, not the quotes property)
  208. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: I've set pre.bad to "color: red" for now
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  210. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: fixed the -webkit-any-link thing too
  211. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#a-display
  212. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: I'll try to get input split up by some time next week
  213. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> for consistency, maybe it make sense to split up button and command as well
  214. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> hmm, or maybe not command, but button at least
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  231. # [11:46] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: you'd still have q:before { content:open-quote }
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  246. # [12:24] <Philip`> zcorpan_: It isn't any bother for me to run regexp searches, but if you're looking for legitimate <![CDATA[ uses then I probably couldn't help much since I have almost no XML pages
  247. # [12:31] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Also, if you just want to run regexps yourself, you could probably easily download a load of pages (e.g. get the list from dmoz.org, pick a random sample, pass to curl, it's only about 25KB per page so a million fits in 25GB of disk easily), and then run grep and be very patient :-)
  248. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: I added build support for generating per-element "Additional constraints" subsections. So far, the only one is for stating the "The noscript element must not be used in a document in the XML syntax." constraint.
  249. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#noscript-constraints
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  253. # [13:09] <gsnedders> Anyone know of any definition of BibTeX?
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  261. # [14:43] <gsnedders> "two fields must be separated by a coma" — nice to know
  262. # [14:55] <gsnedders> BibTeX is ewww
  263. # [15:04] <Philip`> gsnedders: If you could design something better, and could do it 23 years ago and could get everyone to use it, that would be greatly appreciated
  264. # [15:04] <gsnedders> :)
  265. # [15:04] <gsnedders> I mean, what's wrong with RDF!?
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  307. # [17:42] <gsnedders> Hmm, all the introduction sections should really be numbered section 0 within their depth
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  323. # [19:13] <annevk3> http://twitter.com/maercsratS/statuses/1040686309 :)
  324. # [19:18] <Philip`> That looks like the result of excellent marketing - they're excited about HTML5 because of two features which are not actually in HTML5 and never have been
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  342. # [20:47] <Lachy> Philip`, the web workers stuff is understandable since the spec was also edited by Hixie and was discussed in the whatwg and/or html wg lists
  343. # [20:48] <Lachy> but I'm surprised about how anyone could possibly think geolocation is part of html5
  344. # [20:50] * gsnedders wonders WTF is up with Anolis
  345. # [21:02] <gsnedders> html5lib bug
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  347. # [21:06] <gsnedders> Hixie: you around?
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  357. # [22:31] <Hixie> Philip`: web workers is in html5 according to the web workers spec
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  360. # [22:51] <gsnedders> Hixie: Can you not have to have .copyright on each p, but just have a div instead around them?
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  367. # [23:30] <Hixie> gsnedders: why?
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  369. # [23:34] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  370. # [23:54] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008OctDec/0424.html I'm surprised the svg wg wants me to remove the authoring requirements from selectors api
  371. # Session Close: Sun Dec 07 00:00:00 2008

The end :)