/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-12-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Dec 07 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:21] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-2503661ffa57c398)
  4. # [00:26] <gsnedders> Hixie: So I don't have to repeat @class='copyright'
  5. # [00:26] <Hixie> ?
  6. # [00:26] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'm lazy.
  7. # [00:27] <Lachy> gsnedders, what is it that you're doing with the copyright stuff which is made more difficult?
  8. # [00:28] <gsnedders> Lachy: Nothing. I'm just lazy.
  9. # [00:28] <Lachy> what? Then how are you affected by it at all?
  10. # [00:29] <gsnedders> Lachy: Because I'm too lazy to repeat @class='copyright' :P
  11. # [00:29] <gsnedders> I want <div class="copyright"><p>foo<p>bar</div> instead of <p class=copyright>foo<p class=copyright>bar
  12. # [00:29] <Lachy> is this something to do with anolis?
  13. # [00:29] <gsnedders> Nope
  14. # [00:30] <Lachy> you're not being clear at all.
  15. # [00:30] <gsnedders> I'm too lazy to repeat the class attribute. That is all.
  16. # [00:30] * gsnedders doesn't see how this is unclear
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  18. # [00:32] <Lachy> because I don't know what you are doing that makes you have to repeat it? All I can tell is that this has something to do with the whatwg spec's header file
  19. # [00:33] <gsnedders> I have the MIT license which has four paragraphs.
  20. # [00:34] <gsnedders> I, like a number of other people here, use the whatwg stylesheet
  21. # [00:35] <Lachy> oh, so your problem is in fact the stylesheet using p.copyright instead of just .copyright
  22. # [00:35] <gsnedders> yeah
  23. # [00:36] <Lachy> well, why didn't you just say so?!
  24. # [00:36] * gsnedders thought he did
  25. # [00:36] * gsnedders is half alseep
  26. # [00:37] <Lachy> no, you asked Hixie to change the markup in the spec, which doesn't directly address your problem, although it would have indirectly made him update the stylesheet.
  27. # [00:38] <gsnedders> Lachy: Don't expect sense out of me at this time!
  28. # [00:39] <Lachy> it's ok. I'm' used to people failing to explain their problems and use cases properly :-)
  29. # [00:41] <Hixie> gsnedders: why do you have two copyrights?
  30. # [00:41] <gsnedders> Hixie: For the same reason you do, the copyright info is more than one paragraph.
  31. # [00:42] <gsnedders> Hixie: As I said, I have the full MIT license
  32. # [00:42] <gsnedders> four paragraphs off the top of my head
  33. # [00:42] <Hixie> don't include the whole license on the page :-P
  34. # [00:42] <Hixie> stick it in an appendix if you must
  35. # [00:42] <Hixie> or just refer to it
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  56. # [02:54] <Lachy> I'm trying to look up and book a train ticket on BritRail, for when I'll be in London over New Years. Does anyone here have any idea what the difference is between "Ticket Only", "Ticket & Reservation", and "Reservation Only"?
  57. # [02:56] <gavin> what are the differences in price between them?
  58. # [02:57] * gavin predicts Ticket Only < Reservation Only < Ticket and Reservation
  59. # [03:03] <Lachy> it seems the reservation options let me choose which date and time I want to travel. But then I don't understand what it would mean to buy a ticket without a reservation
  60. # [03:05] <Lachy> they don't appear to have the time I was looking for though. My sister said she got a train on 2nd Jan deptarting 09:00/arriving 11:16, but there isn't one listed at that time.
  61. # [03:06] <svl> reservation is probably for a specific seat, with not all trains allowing seat reservation. (that's a guess; no idea if the UK even has trains with seat reservation)
  62. # [03:09] <svl> http://www.seat61.com/UKtravel.htm#Buying%20UK%20train%20tickets%20if%20youre%20from%20outside%20the%20UK might help
  63. # [03:12] <Lachy> oh, that says I can most likely just buy a ticket at the station on the day. That might be a lot easier
  64. # [03:15] <Lachy> oh, I have an oyster card from when I was in London a few months ago. Does that work on long distance trains as well, or just the suburban trains?
  65. # [03:18] <svl> oyster is london only.
  66. # [03:19] <Lachy> ok
  67. # [03:19] <svl> And yeah, unless it's a special fast long distance train, buying a ticket in advance definitely won't be necessary.
  68. # [03:20] <svl> (Just might work out cheaper.)
  69. # [03:21] <Lachy> I don't think it's a special one. I'm just travelling from London to Chester
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  100. # [09:37] * BenMillard is confused by http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Dec/0088.html
  101. # [09:42] <Lachy> BenMillard, yeah, I think Joshue is just confused
  102. # [09:43] <BenMillard> Lachy, the stuff about HTTP is what threw me. :)
  103. # [09:44] <Lachy> indeed
  104. # [09:44] <BenMillard> I consider the off-screen model as being part of step 5
  105. # [09:45] <BenMillard> the way ATs interact with web pages is, as Josh describes, something of a patchwork at the moment due to inadequate APIs, bugs in applications, dynamic content and so forth
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  107. # [09:45] <BenMillard> but the steps from 1-4 don't seem affected by that, afaict
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  109. # [09:46] <BenMillard> Lachy, does the part Josh quoted from me make sense to you?
  110. # [09:47] <Lachy> This one isn't as clear as it could be "The UA stores them in the relevant accessibility API properties."
  111. # [09:48] <Lachy> The UA stores the associations in an implementation specific way. It doesn't really matter how. The important part is that it reports those associations to the AT through the accessibility APIs
  112. # [09:52] <Lachy> BenMillard,
  113. # [09:52] <Lachy> 1. The UA runs through the <table> once using the algorithm to find and store all of the associations between cells.
  114. # [09:52] <Lachy> 2. A user interacts with a cell via an AT.
  115. # [09:52] <Lachy> 3. The AT obtains the associations for the cell by querying the UA via the accessibility APIs
  116. # [09:53] <BenMillard> Lachy, yeah that makes sense
  117. # [09:53] <Lachy> I cut your original step 2 and 5. Step 5 wasn't actually a step in the process, it's more of a footnote about how the AT can interact with the user
  118. # [09:54] <Lachy> step 4 would then be the AT reporting the relevant information to the user
  119. # [09:56] <Lachy> BenMillard, it could also work if the AT obtained access directly to the DOM and applied the algorithm itself to work out the associations
  120. # [09:57] <BenMillard> Lachy, my hope is that UAs will implement this since there are far fewer UAs than ATs, plus UAs have the resources and involvement in web standards to get it right. :)
  121. # [09:57] <BenMillard> but yes, ATs could do it themselves in the way you describe
  122. # [09:57] <Lachy> BenMillard, yeah, the other advantage is that its cheaper for a user to upgrade their browser than it is to upgrade their AT
  123. # [09:58] <BenMillard> Lachy, good point!
  124. # [09:58] <BenMillard> please send these thoughts to the thread, if you have the time :)
  125. # [09:59] <Lachy> I generally try to avoid contributing to accessibility related threads these days, given past experiences :-)
  126. # [09:59] <Lachy> but I suppose I could
  127. # [10:00] <BenMillard> well, your clarification that UAs can vary in how they store the information so long as ATs can query it, and that ATs can vary in how they store what they get, should help
  128. # [10:01] <BenMillard> and that the hope is for UAs to implement the association algorithm rather than ATs, for various reasons
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  150. # [14:04] <gsnedders> Philip`: You are meeting me tomorrow.
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  157. # [15:05] <Philip`> gsnedders: Oh, okay
  158. # [15:05] <Philip`> gsnedders: At what time?
  159. # [15:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: T19:00:00Z/PT5m
  160. # [15:08] <gsnedders> Philip`: If technology permits, I will remind you tomorrow too.
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  162. # [15:27] <Philip`> gsnedders: Okay, I think I should be able to remember that now :-)
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  165. # [16:14] <gsnedders> hmm…
  166. # [16:14] <gsnedders> Do I need to take my really thick warm anorak with me?
  167. # [16:25] <Philip`> It's not overwhelmingly warm here
  168. # [16:25] <Philip`> but I imagine you're used to the cold :-p
  169. # [16:42] <neatnik> gsnedders: did you ever work things out with that girl?
  170. # [16:48] <gsnedders> neatnik: The one I was tweeting about?
  171. # [16:48] <neatnik> gsnedders: not sure, the one we chatted about, oh, a year or so ago
  172. # [16:48] * neatnik = ajnewbold
  173. # [16:48] <gsnedders> ah, that makes more sense
  174. # [16:48] <gsnedders> neatnik: pm?
  175. # [16:48] <neatnik> sure
  176. # [16:49] * Philip` wonders if there are good places to get access to a Windows machine with decent RAM/CPU/disk, for compiling some software, for maybe an (unpredictably scheduled) half hour a day, for as little money as possible
  177. # [16:49] <gsnedders> I don't really want to get into discussions about this sort of stuff here (or in any other logged channel :P)
  178. # [16:49] <gsnedders> Philip`: Scrounge off friends?
  179. # [16:49] <gsnedders> Philip`: That normally works for me
  180. # [16:49] <Philip`> (The only thing I've heard of is Amazon EC2, which may or may not be suitable, but there ought to be better options)
  181. # [16:49] <neatnik> gsnedders: ah, gotcha; I never even think about logs
  182. # [16:49] <neatnik> surely that'll come back to haunt me someday
  183. # [16:50] <gsnedders> :)
  184. # [16:50] <Philip`> gsnedders: All my friends run Linux ;-)
  185. # [16:50] <gsnedders> Philip`: I'm not your friend!? :'(
  186. # [16:51] <Philip`> gsnedders: and I need something fairly reliable and long-term, which probably wouldn't be possible if I was borrowing spare resources off people
  187. # [16:51] <gsnedders> Philip`: ah. I don't run Windows anyway.
  188. # [16:51] <Philip`> gsnedders: s/run Linux/don't run Windows/, then :-p
  189. # [16:52] <gsnedders> Philip`: :)
  190. # [16:52] <Philip`> I used to just run a machine in my parent's house, but that's no so good in terms of electricity cost or noise or bandwidth
  191. # [16:52] <Philip`> s/no/not/
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  206. # [21:06] <dave_levin__> Does the html5 spec imply that on right click a mouseup event should be sent before the contexmenu event (http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#context-menus)?
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  216. # [21:42] <yecril71> The cost of traversing a tree is proportional to the number of nodes.
  217. # [21:44] <yecril71> Even if we strictly follow the prescription of ID maintenance, the cost of inserting an identifier is proportional to the depth of the inserted node.
  218. # [21:44] <yecril71> So it is usually much cheaper.
  219. # [21:44] <yecril71> The structure of the DOM tree is prescribed by the document,
  220. # [21:45] <yecril71> it cannot be balanced or unbalanced at the implementorís will.
  221. # [21:46] <yecril71> There are use cases for efficient scoped identifiers;
  222. # [21:46] <yecril71> since the implementors must deal with them anyway, why not make the interface available for scripting?
  223. # [21:50] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L96af.l.pppool.de) (Client Quit)
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  225. # [21:58] <yecril71> Inserting a node into an empty element is not so special.
  226. # [21:58] <yecril71> It is as bad as inserting an unsupported child node, which can happen to other elements as well.
  227. # [21:59] <yecril71> Why should an element with no text child nodes be illegal?
  228. # [22:04] <Hixie> dave_levin: depends on the platform (will be either after mousedown or after mouseup/click, probably)
  229. # [22:17] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-204-152-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  230. # [22:25] <Lachy> I found this awesome search plugin to fix my problem with Google's annoying redirection :-) http://mycroft.mozdev.org/search-engines.html?name=google+(no+country+redirect)
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  233. # [23:04] <dave_levin> hixie: So the events around the right click (which results in contextmenu) are platform dependent and basically not defined in html5.
  234. # [23:07] <dave_levin> I ask this because webkit on Windows sends mouseup and on OSX, it doesn't. I'm trying to figure out if html5 helps me to make a case for which way to go (which I would then go and fix for OSX). (It does appear that if mouseup is sent that it should be sent before the contextmenu or else some websites don't work properly.)
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  245. # Session Close: Mon Dec 08 00:00:00 2008

The end :)