/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-12-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 10 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  4. # [00:13] <Lachy__> hey, can anyone recommend a nice, reasonably priced hotel for me to stay in London?
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  33. # [02:25] <Hixie> the more i try to fix this scripting thing the more involved the edit becomes
  34. # [02:25] <Hixie> this is becoming quite the diff
  35. # [02:25] <Hixie> i don't even remember what the original problem was that i was fixing
  36. # [02:26] <Hixie> it's like someone saying "i'd like you to fix the off-white colour on the wall here" and finding that the off-white is caused by rot which is caused by a slow leak which is caused by faulty insulation in the attic and that the slow leak has also weaked the foundations and that you have to basically pull the whole house down and rebuild it
  37. # [02:30] <neatnik> Hixie: and then you discover that the house was built on an ancient Indian burial ground, and the land is tainted with thousands of restless spirits
  38. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> Hixie: not looking forward to reading that diff
  39. # [02:32] <kfish> neatnik, hence the off-white colour on the walls
  40. # [02:33] <neatnik> Interestingly, you never hear about computers being haunted
  41. # [02:33] <Hixie> neatnik: oh we already know about the burial ground
  42. # [02:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: at least now that you're using Geoffrey's spec-gen thing, the IDs won't get cascade-changed throughout the whole spec
  43. # [02:33] <Hixie> neatnik: this is html, after all
  44. # [02:33] <neatnik> Hixie: lol
  45. # [02:33] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah really
  46. # [02:35] <MikeSmith> If we awaken the spirits, maybe they'll bring some peyote with them.
  47. # [02:35] <MikeSmith> that would be an upside
  48. # [02:35] <Hixie> dude i need my mind totally clear to write this stuff
  49. # [02:36] <Hixie> i don't think shooting up would help the spec :-P
  50. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> peyote will clear your mind, as well as your stomach. it will bring ideas straight from your belly and back up through your nostrils
  51. # [02:38] <MikeSmith> good medicine must always have some kind of adverse side effects
  52. # [02:38] <MikeSmith> but I digress
  53. # [02:38] <MikeSmith> ..as usual
  54. # [02:38] * MikeSmith goes to drink some tea
  55. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw, I was doing a bit with dfn.js yesterday
  56. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> that's a sweet little piece of work
  57. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> every spec should use that
  58. # [02:49] <Hixie> hehe
  59. # [02:49] <Hixie> my biggest problem with it is it doesn't support "open in new tab"
  60. # [02:49] <Hixie> what were you doing with it?
  61. # [02:53] <MikeSmith> Hixie: adding it to my document-conformance draft
  62. # [02:53] <Hixie> ah cool
  63. # [02:53] <MikeSmith> works particularly nicely for back-refs for the datatypes stuff
  64. # [02:54] <MikeSmith> btw, I've never been explicitly told we can't use any scripts in W3C TR docs
  65. # [02:54] <MikeSmith> and I'm not going to ask for permission..
  66. # [02:56] <Hixie> let's hope the script doesn't introduce the risk of an xss
  67. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> ..so I think it would be good have have dfn.js added, e.g., to some webapps specs
  68. # [02:57] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm shocked that it's possible (modulo your proposal) to parse html without depending on the dom
  69. # [02:57] <Hixie> hsivonen: are you really sure you can't cause the parser to trigger mutations that make no sense?
  70. # [02:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: is there a reason why foster-parented stuff isn't dropped on the floor if the parent of the table is gone?
  71. # [02:58] <Hixie> not really
  72. # [02:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: pretty sure that that's the only show-stopper problem
  73. # [02:59] * Hixie is not 100% convinced, but will have to look closer at some point
  74. # [02:59] <Hixie> when writing AAA in particular i found crashes in safari that were due to hyatt not thinking of certain changes you could make to the dom from script
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  76. # [03:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: we could make things slightly simpler if foster-parented stuff was dropped if the parent is gone
  77. # [03:00] <Hixie> (so i wouldn't be surprised if such a radical change as you propose reintroduced such errors)
  78. # [03:00] <Hixie> hsivonen: send mail
  79. # [03:00] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't really care either way
  80. # [03:02] <heycam> MikeSmith, is dfn.js what makes the <dfn>s clickable in the html5 spec?
  81. # [03:02] <heycam> if so, then i want it :)
  82. # [03:02] * heycam already borrowed dl.switch from the whatwg style sheet
  83. # [03:02] <MikeSmith> heycam: yeah
  84. # [03:04] <MikeSmith> heycam: I recommend going ahead and adding it to the WebIDL spec
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  86. # [03:04] <heycam> there aren't any copyright licensing terms in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/dfn.js
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  88. # [03:05] <Hixie> heycam: what license do you want it under?
  89. # [03:05] <heycam> Hixie, anything sufficiently liberal for me to use it
  90. # [03:05] <heycam> i don't mind if attribution is required
  91. # [03:06] <Hixie> public domain ok?
  92. # [03:06] <heycam> sure
  93. # [03:06] <heycam> that's easiest
  94. # [03:06] <Hixie> i hereby grant http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/dfn.js into the public domain
  95. # [03:06] <heycam> (though i know some people think public domain is a bad idea)
  96. # [03:06] * heycam wonders whether that is sufficient
  97. # [03:06] <heycam> could you add it as comment at the top of dfn.js?
  98. # [03:06] <Hixie> well if you want something more, let me know
  99. # [03:07] <Hixie> done
  100. # [03:07] <heycam> thanks
  101. # [03:07] <Hixie> (neither me nor google will ever sue you over copying that file)
  102. # [03:08] <Hixie> i have to say, the people who are fighting so hard for their copyrights have really made my life noticeably more annoying
  103. # [03:08] <Hixie> because everyone is always asking me for copyright statements and so forth
  104. # [03:08] <Hixie> i wish copyright didn't eixst
  105. # [03:08] <Hixie> exist
  106. # [03:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: were there compat issues with making CDATA sections act like CDATA sections in HTML?
  107. # [03:08] <Hixie> my life would be far better
  108. # [03:08] <heycam> in australia at least explicit copyright statements don't need to be made
  109. # [03:08] <Hixie> hsivonen: yes, pretty sure
  110. # [03:09] <Hixie> heycam: i mean statements saying that copying is ok
  111. # [03:09] <heycam> Hixie, ah
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  113. # [03:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: having to check the tree builder state is a problem for tokenizing ahead of tree building
  114. # [03:09] * Quits: ojan_ (n=ojan@72.14.229.81) ("Leaving")
  115. # [03:09] <hsivonen> as in saving the tokens of speculative script, style and img parse
  116. # [03:10] <Hixie> hsivonen: isn't that a problem for things like <script> anyway? or can you move those parts into the tokeniser effectively
  117. # [03:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: document.write is an obvious problem that cannot go away
  118. # [03:10] <hsivonen> CDATA maybe could still made into a non-problem
  119. # [03:11] <Hixie> well if you have proposals, send mail. but i highly doubt we can support "<![CDATA[" as an escaping string in regular text/html
  120. # [03:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: moving bailing out of foreign content into the tokenizer doesn't work
  121. # [03:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
  122. # [03:11] <Hixie> it's probably dangerous enough in svg/mathml as it is
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  124. # [03:11] <Hixie> i could be convinced to remove it altogether, but you'd have to get that past the svgwg, which will be interesting
  125. # [03:12] <Hixie> not sure what the status is wrt svgwg and svg-in-text/html
  126. # [03:12] <Hixie> is the ball in our court?
  127. # [03:12] <Hixie> they never replied to my e-mail
  128. # [03:12] <Hixie> but we had that meeting in mandelieu
  129. # [03:12] <Hixie> which went nowhere
  130. # [03:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: they didn't respond to my review either
  131. # [03:12] <heycam> Hixie, we recently just started discussing it again
  132. # [03:12] <heycam> (see public-svg-wg)
  133. # [03:12] <Hixie> ah ok
  134. # [03:12] <Hixie> cool
  135. # [03:12] <heycam> i expect we'll discuss at at the thursday telcon
  136. # [03:12] <heycam> *it at
  137. # [03:13] <Hixie> k
  138. # [03:13] <Hixie> i have to say, for all the problems that it introduces, the whatwg model definitely does make things faster
  139. # [03:14] <Hixie> svg-in-text/html was resolved in about a month once i started working on it, from start to finish (notwithstanding the svgwg's feedback, of course)
  140. # [03:14] <Hixie> including responding to all feedback
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  142. # [03:16] <Hixie> (all of which is ironic given our timetable vs the w3c's timetables, heh)
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  144. # [03:19] <kfish> Hixie, I was wondering, what tools do you use to summarize discussions in email? or do you just cut and copy?
  145. # [03:19] <Hixie> pine
  146. # [03:19] <Hixie> it has a multi-message reply facility
  147. # [03:19] <heycam> do you use an external editor? or the builtin one?
  148. # [03:20] <Hixie> i use pine's editor generally, but if i need to do anything special i escape out to emacs
  149. # [03:20] <Hixie> i often fix up formatting in dozens of e-mails at once using emacs
  150. # [03:20] <Hixie> then do the actual replying in pine
  151. # [03:20] <heycam> i suppose at least the pine editor's key bindings are similar to emacs
  152. # [03:20] <Hixie> pine has a slightly better mail reflowing mechanism
  153. # [03:20] <heycam> but apart from that, /me shudders :)
  154. # [03:21] <Hixie> heh
  155. # [03:21] <Hixie> i'd use emacs if i could work out how to configure it to reflow blocks of indented mail sanely
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  158. # [03:21] <kfish> cool, thanks
  159. # [03:21] <Hixie> but my current configuration isn't good at distinguishing where the indent level changes
  160. # [03:21] <heycam> M-x reflow-mails-as-hixie-likes-them
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  162. # [03:21] <Hixie> and ends up screwing everything up into one paragraph
  163. # [03:21] <Hixie> which is suboptimal
  164. # [03:22] <heycam> my workflow is to use mutt with vim as the editor, and i highlight the stuff to reflow and do :!par
  165. # [03:22] <heycam> i just haven't figured out how to make par put two spaces between sentences instead of one
  166. # [03:22] <Hixie> ctrl-j in pine just figures out what the current paragraph is, reflows it, and moves the cursor to below the paragraph
  167. # [03:23] <heycam> that seems nice
  168. # [03:23] <Hixie> so i can reflow an entire mail paragraph-by-paragraph just by hitting ctrl-j..j..j..j..j..j..j...
  169. # [03:23] <Hixie> which is awesome
  170. # [03:23] <Hixie> it screws up with mail from emacs gnu mail users (they indent using " >" instead of "> " which pine doesn't know what to do with)
  171. # [03:24] <Hixie> and it screws up with mail from gmail (pine can't parse the html from gmail and ends up not indenting anything)
  172. # [03:24] <Hixie> so for those two cases i jump to emacs, do a quick regexp search-replace, and go back
  173. # [03:24] <Hixie> all under screen(1) over ssh
  174. # [03:25] <heycam> i should use screen i suppose
  175. # [03:25] <heycam> i don't find it too annoying to quit mutt and restart it later though
  176. # [03:25] <Hixie> (my mail client configuration has basically not changed since 1996, except for adding screen about 6 years ago)
  177. # [03:26] <heycam> heh
  178. # [03:26] <Hixie> well the great thing with screen is that i can be half-way through an e-mail and i can just close my laptop, move elsewhere, reopen it, and the cursor will still be at the same point in the e-mail
  179. # [03:26] <Hixie> which is awesome
  180. # [03:26] <Hixie> if a cat sits on my keyboard, i can just pull out another laptop and continue and it's like nothing happened, without having to move the cat
  181. # [03:26] <heycam> lol
  182. # [03:26] <Hixie> (i did that once and the cat was like, wtf)
  183. # [03:27] <Hixie> ("you're supposed to pet me. nobody else has been able to ignore me when i sit on the keyboard. who are you, freak?")
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  188. # [03:45] <heycam> nice, http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/ with clickable <dfn>s now
  189. # [03:46] <heycam> i like how google thinks that www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/ is written by a mr (or mrs) "C Changes" -- http://www.google.com/search?q=web+idl
  190. # [03:48] <Hixie> yes, you should be receiving a letter any day now announcing that we've filed to have your name changed
  191. # [03:48] <Hixie> sorry for the delay, but we have to do it by postal mail for legal reasons so it takes a while
  192. # [03:48] <heycam> such is google's influence on the world
  193. # [03:49] <Hixie> well it's just that your parents made a mistake, we're just correcting it now
  194. # [03:49] <heycam> :)
  195. # [03:50] <heycam> google actually has crawled the web and generated an immense genealogy tree and determined that my great^5-grandfather was illegitimate and was given the wrong name
  196. # [03:51] * heycam marvels at what computers can do these days!
  197. # [03:51] <Hixie> :-)
  198. # [03:52] <Philip`> Looking at e.g. http://www.google.com/search?q=site:www.ietf.org+rfc it seems to be wrong about as often as it's right
  199. # [03:52] <Hixie> that it gets any right at all is pretty amazing
  200. # [03:52] <Hixie> i wonder how it works
  201. # [03:53] <Hixie> i guess i could look
  202. # [03:54] <Philip`> It seems kind of silly to display that information at all, when there's so little confidence that it's right
  203. # [03:54] <heycam> i wonder whether it looks at <address>
  204. # [03:54] <heycam> (if one exists)
  205. # [03:54] <Philip`> I've seen Google sometimes say how many replies there were to forum posts in its results, which is a much more useful thing since it seems to get it right and lets you ignore unanswered queries
  206. # [03:55] <Hixie> well well well
  207. # [03:56] <Hixie> designMode = 'on' doesn't stop other frames from calling your scripts
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  209. # [04:01] <Hixie> woah
  210. # [04:01] <Hixie> designMode = 'on' doesn't stop ANY scripts!
  211. # [04:02] <Hixie> where did i get the idea that it did from?
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  215. # [04:23] * MikeSmith thanks heycam for tip about par(1)
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  252. # [06:58] <zcorpan> Hixie: opera supports <![CDATA[ in text/html, and we haven't got many bugs about it
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  257. # [07:09] <MikeSmith> CDATA sections in text/html would be great to have
  258. # [07:09] <MikeSmith> would make life easier for author/developers who want to include HTML/markup examples in their docs
  259. # [07:09] <MikeSmith> e.g., spec editors
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  261. # [07:13] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: you could use <xmp>
  262. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: <xmp> supported across browsers? IE?
  263. # [07:15] <zcorpan> yes
  264. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> I guess I remember hearing that now, but don't remember why it's not part of HTML5, then
  265. # [07:18] <zcorpan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0120.html
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  267. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: thanks
  268. # [07:22] * MikeSmith sees not reply from Hixie there, wonders which of his issue folders <xmp> might fall in
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  271. # [07:27] <zcorpan> http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fcanvex.lazyilluminati.com%2Fmisc%2Fcgi%2Fissues.cgi+xmp
  272. # [07:27] * MikeSmith finds http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070822#l-301
  273. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: thanks
  274. # [07:29] <zcorpan> oh right, Philip` started with an html reference document
  275. # [07:30] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: perhaps you can steal some stuff from it
  276. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: what're your own current thoughts on making <xmp> conforming? good idea? bad idea?
  277. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: URL for Philip` s reference doc?
  278. # [07:30] <zcorpan> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/ref/ref.html
  279. # [07:31] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i don't mind it being conforming but i don't feel strongly about it
  280. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> OK
  281. # [07:31] <zcorpan> it's pretty useless in xhtml though
  282. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> yeah
  283. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: btw, splitting up input into multiple sections is still a high priority for me for the document-conformance draft.. I got sidetracked a bit messing around with the Datatypes section. among other things, borrowed Hixie's dfn.js and put it to use for backrefs for the datatypes
  284. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> e.g, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#common.data.integer
  285. # [07:35] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ok
  286. # [07:37] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the entity table should omit entities without trailing ;
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  289. # [07:39] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: added to my TODO list -- which is, so far, all stuff from you
  290. # [07:39] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/TODO
  291. # [07:39] * MikeSmith needs to add a few more things to that...
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  293. # [07:42] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: put it on the todo list that you have to add a few more things to it
  294. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> heh
  295. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> smartass
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  298. # [07:55] * olliej is now known as fakeolliej
  299. # [08:07] * zcorpan uploads http://simon.html5.org/dump/titles-with-line-breaks-all.txt
  300. # [08:07] <zcorpan> some have just a trailing line break
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  315. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> trying to recall what the rationale is for allowing years with more than 4 digits
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  317. # [08:59] <Lachy> MikeSmith, to avoid the imminent Y10k bug
  318. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> ah
  319. # [09:02] <Lachy> we could easily restrict it to 4 digit years now and then, if HTML is still around in 8000 years, let the future generations solve the problem by permitting 5 digit years
  320. # [09:03] <roc> I fear what HTML will have grown into in 8000 years
  321. # [09:03] <jwalden> but what if I want to talk about dates in the future in H. G. Wells's "The Time Machine"?
  322. # [09:03] <jwalden> (I kid, mostly)
  323. # [09:04] <Lachy> jwalden, you don't need the time element for that
  324. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> OK, also wondering what the rationale is for allowing month to be 00-12, instead of just 01-12
  325. # [09:05] <Lachy> that's got to be a mistake
  326. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I'd hope so, but I don't think it is
  327. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#months
  328. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> "Two digits, representing the month month, in the range 0 ≤ month ≤ 12"
  329. # [09:06] <Lachy> looks like a mistake to me
  330. # [09:07] <Lachy> it also says in the parsing rules "If month is not a number in the range 1 ≤ month ≤ 12, then fail."
  331. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> ah
  332. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> OK
  333. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> thanks
  334. # [09:07] <Lachy> Hixie, ^
  335. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> definitely must be a mistake, then
  336. # [09:08] * MikeSmith breathes a sign of relief.. then takes a bong rip
  337. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> somehow the effects of the bong rip are significantly more calming than a simple sign of relief
  338. # [09:23] <Lachy> Hixie, same error the the day in "Two digits, representing day, in the range 0 ≤ day ≤ maxday where maxday is the number of days in the month month and year year"
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  342. # [09:51] <Hixie> Lachy: send mail or file a bug (or hope i remember) :-)
  343. # [09:55] <Lachy> ok
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  351. # [10:14] <Lachy> I just booked my hotel in London for my New Years holiday :-)
  352. # [10:16] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@ip565f6edb.direct-adsl.nl)
  353. # [10:22] * jgraham fails to believe that Lachy found somewhere cheap and nice
  354. # [10:26] <Philip`> http://www.crummy.com/2008/12/09/0
  355. # [10:28] <jgraham> Philip`: Interesting
  356. # [10:29] <annevk5> maybe we should tell him html5lib is not as fast
  357. # [10:32] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@135.196.104.206)
  358. # [10:33] <jgraham> Maybe we should encourage takkaria to produce python bindings for hubbub and call it chtml5lib :)
  359. # [10:35] <Lachy> jgraham, I found a place that cost me £317 for 4 nights in Sussex Gardens
  360. # [10:36] <Lachy> arr Mon 29th, dep Fri 2nd
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  363. # [10:51] <annevk5> just published: http://www.devarticles.com/c/a/HTML/Upgrading-from-HTML-to-XHTML/
  364. # [10:51] <annevk5> seems like a copy from some other site though
  365. # [10:54] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@118-92-153-119.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("Leaving")
  366. # [10:56] <roc> I can't bear it
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  376. # [11:49] * BenMillard cringes at the "upgrading" article.
  377. # [11:49] * BenMillard is reminded of things he used to say about 3 years ago. :(
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  384. # [12:21] <gsnedders> heyhey
  385. # [12:24] <BenMillard> hey G
  386. # [12:25] <gsnedders> how's you?
  387. # [12:26] <BenMillard> oh I'm alright
  388. # [12:27] <BenMillard> been catching up on the logs
  389. # [12:29] <BenMillard> Philip`, I think ref.html would look a bit cleaner without the grey border-bottom.
  390. # [12:30] * gsnedders is on train going back home
  391. # [12:30] * gsnedders left his jacket on the train from Cambridge to Peterborough and thus is cold
  392. # [12:31] <BenMillard> Philip`, using <strong> to highlight the relevant part of samples is good. It seems correct for <html> and <base> but incorrect for both <title> examples.
  393. # [12:32] <zcorpan> BenMillard: i don't think Philip`is maintaining ref.html :)
  394. # [12:33] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Do you know off-hand how Document.gEBID should work on XML multi-namespace documents?
  395. # [12:33] <zcorpan> gsnedders: same as in html documents
  396. # [12:34] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Only match @id on an element in the HTML namespace, or @id on an element in any namespace?
  397. # [12:34] <BenMillard> zcorpan, oh right. I thought it was the early days of a side project/demo type thing.
  398. # [12:35] <zcorpan> gsnedders: web dom core just talks about "ID"
  399. # [12:35] <gsnedders> BenMillard: A lot of Philip`'s things are early demos but with little intention of being maintained :)
  400. # [12:35] <zcorpan> gsnedders: what "ID" means depends on if you support xml:id, xhtml5, svg, etc
  401. # [12:35] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Ergh. Yay. :\
  402. # [12:36] <zcorpan> (until someone sane comes along and defines XML ID 5)
  403. # [12:38] <gsnedders> Train wifi sucks.
  404. # [12:38] <gsnedders> Email won't send
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  409. # [12:44] <gsnedders> wow!
  410. # [12:45] <gsnedders> 12KB/s!
  411. # [12:46] * gsnedders wonders if it'd be quicker to use the web on his phone
  412. # [12:48] <Lachy> zcorpan, what improvements would a hypothetical XML ID 5 spec include?
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  416. # [12:52] <gsnedders> The wifi was quick for a minute (like 75KB/s quick), but now back to < 10
  417. # [12:56] <annevk5> zcorpan, it sort of makes sense if you define DOM ID and then have the respective specs define how they map to that
  418. # [13:03] <zcorpan> Lachy: it would make 'id' an ID attribute on any element and drop DTD ID and xml:id
  419. # [13:04] <zcorpan> annevk5: ok
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  421. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: build for my draft doc now strips out semicolon-less entity names from the giganto table -
  422. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#named
  423. # [13:39] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: nice
  424. # [13:46] <annevk5> might be nice to have a link there to skip over the table given it's so huge
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  427. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> annevk5: OK, added
  428. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> it says Skip past table to next section (References)
  429. # [14:07] <annevk5> i should probably not have gotten involved in that link relationship debacle
  430. # [14:07] <annevk5> I don't at all see evidence for all the complexity they are adding
  431. # [14:08] <annevk5> evidence that justifies the complexity*
  432. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> annevk5: extensibility? ...
  433. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> that oftens seems to be the rationale for complexity
  434. # [14:11] <zcorpan> html5 link rels can be extended through the wiki
  435. # [14:12] <annevk5> MikeSmith, where is evidence that we need URIs for extensibility?
  436. # [14:12] <annevk5> MikeSmith, it's not like there are millions of relationships going around currently
  437. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> annevk5: true
  438. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> I'm not defending the rationale.. just speculating for what it might be
  439. # [14:13] <annevk5> they are just making a silly feature we should probably remove (Link HTTP header) even more complex and making HTML and Atom more complex in the process
  440. # [14:13] <annevk5> i mean, wtf
  441. # [14:14] <annevk5> MikeSmith, link looks nice btw
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  445. # [14:40] <Philip`> BenMillard: Yeah, that grey border looks pretty weird
  446. # [14:40] <Philip`> BenMillard: For <title>, I think the point was to highlight the "contrast[...] with the top-level headers", hence highlighting the headers as well as the titles
  447. # [14:40] <Philip`> (Those examples came from the spec, I think)
  448. # [14:41] <Philip`> Then I got bored and nobody seemed to care a lot, so I gave up with it :-)
  449. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> OK, just for kicks: in the named-character-references table, I made all the names link to themselves
  450. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#charref-clubsuit
  451. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> not sure how useful it is
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  462. # [15:32] <annevk5> http://q42.nl/q42-lego-logo anyone up for doing the WHATWG logo in lego?
  463. # [15:36] <Philip`> annevk5: It's circular, and circles are hard in Lego :-(
  464. # [15:38] <Philip`> Also it's green and white, which are fairly rare colours in Lego
  465. # [15:41] * Joins: cgriego (n=cgriego@72-254-175-184.client.stsn.net)
  466. # [15:41] <annevk5> I guess you don't read Dutch :)
  467. # [15:41] * Parts: cgriego (n=cgriego@72-254-175-184.client.stsn.net)
  468. # [15:42] <annevk5> The idea is that you design it on your computer (Sjoerd wrote some software to calculate which bricks were needed for the rounding) using some software from lego.com and then you can order the result
  469. # [15:46] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6296
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  471. # [15:51] <Philip`> I emailed the online Lego store some years ago, asking for enough bricks to build a replica of the Earth
  472. # [15:52] <Philip`> (Their web-based ordering form was limited to 9,999 units, which was far too many orders of magnitude below what I needed)
  473. # [15:52] <Philip`> s/replica/life-sized replica/
  474. # [15:53] <Philip`> They were very nice and wrote back to me, though I can't quite remember what they said
  475. # [15:53] <Lachy> LOL
  476. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> OK, in the spirit of taking things to their logical extreme, I have a named-character table now with a 3rd column that shows the glyphs (or replacment char if you font doesn't have the glyph for whatever code point)
  477. # [15:55] <Lachy> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/04/toy_taliban/
  478. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#charref-expectation
  479. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> that's a great name
  480. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> euitable for use in Emotion ML
  481. # [15:56] <Philip`> Surely that should be http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#charref-ℰ
  482. # [15:57] <Philip`> Hmph, my IRC font doesn't like that character
  483. # [15:58] <Lachy> MikeSmith, for the authoring guide, I intend to use images of the glyphs instead of relying on people's fonts
  484. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> Lachy: yeah, that'll be better
  485. # [15:58] <Lachy> although the current chart I have for that doesn't use images yet
  486. # [15:58] <Lachy> I need to find a set of images with an appropriate copyright licence that I can use
  487. # [15:59] <annevk5> better to encourage people to fix issues than include workarounds, imo :)
  488. # [15:59] <Lachy> annevk5, there are other technical reasons to use images, even if people have the appropriate fonts
  489. # [15:59] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: s/Glyph/Character/ ?
  490. # [15:59] <Lachy> like ensuring that each glyph fits into the design properly, and doesn't overlap
  491. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> Lachy: zvon.org has some licenseable images
  492. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> mabye
  493. # [16:00] * zcorpan wouldn't want 2000 images to be loaded
  494. # [16:00] <zcorpan> how about using a web font that includes all the glyphs?
  495. # [16:00] <Lachy> annevk5, e.g. see fflig in http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/charref
  496. # [16:01] <Lachy> zcorpan, that might work
  497. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> I think those character refs should just be published as a separate doc
  498. # [16:01] <Philip`> Why would anyone want to use a character reference when their own computer can't display the character?
  499. # [16:02] <Philip`> It seems better for authors to be discouraged from using such characters at all
  500. # [16:02] <Lachy> Philip`, I guess some people find them easier to input, or for use with non-Unicode encodings
  501. # [16:03] <Lachy> Philip`, for most cases, I agree, but there are some legitimate cases where' they're useful, such as for non-breaking spaces
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  503. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> I don't think it's helpful at all to encourage authors to use named character references
  504. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> but we are kind of stuck with them now
  505. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> thanks to the MathML folks
  506. # [16:05] <Philip`> Lachy: I was meaning the characters themselves, not just the references to them
  507. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> giving names to every character under the sun
  508. # [16:06] <Philip`> (In particular, the characters which would cause problems when displayed in a character reference table because the author doesn't have glyphs for them)
  509. # [16:07] <Lachy> Philip`, there are some specialised use cases where such characters are useful for people, but for which your average user may not have all the characters available.
  510. # [16:07] <Lachy> e.g. a lot of those math related characters aren't available in default installs, but mathematicians could easily install them if needed
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  513. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> Lachy: so what do you think about publish that table as a standalone separate doc?
  514. # [16:19] <Lachy> MikeSmith, I was intending to just make it a separate page within the authoring guide
  515. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> or better yet, asking the MathML group to do it so other can just reference it
  516. # [16:20] <Lachy> well, actually, when it's finished, I'm hoping it will be more like an app that let's people search interactively
  517. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> Lachy: what you mention above makes me think even more strongly that most users don't need that info
  518. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> mostly it's a just for math
  519. # [16:20] <Lachy> why? There are other sections that will get their own pages too
  520. # [16:21] <zcorpan> maybe hide the mathml entities behind a checkbox
  521. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> Lachy: that list frankly doesn't seem to me like something worth putting a whole lot of time into.. e.g., not worth making in a searchable app thing
  522. # [16:21] <Lachy> zcorpan, there will be various filters that let people show and hide characters based on all sorts of categories
  523. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> we already got the searchable thing at zvon.org
  524. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> http://zvon.org/other/charSearch/PHP/search.php
  525. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> not sure what the benefit in reinventing that wheel would be
  526. # [16:22] <Philip`> It seems much more useful to have a general-purpose Unicode character searching tool, which might happen to tell you the HTML entity or maybe some other tool does a simple number->name lookup, rather than making a clever specialised tool just for HTML entities
  527. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> http://zvon.org/other/charSearch/PHP/search.php?request=8496&searchType=2
  528. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> Philip`: what you describe seems like just what the zvon tool does already
  529. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> anyway, the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that properly the MathML WG should be the ones to produce a normative list of those things
  530. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> I mean, the only reason we need most of those is because of the requirement to allow MathML in text/html, right?
  531. # [16:27] <zcorpan> right
  532. # [16:28] <Lachy> yeah, but it makes sense for the authoring guide to at least provide some information about them
  533. # [16:29] <MikeSmith> Lachy: yeah, but the authoring guide could just reference whatever document the MathML WG produced
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  535. # [16:31] <Lachy> MikeSmith, the MathML specs are notoriously hard to find information about the charcter references in
  536. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> Lachy: i guess they could solve that problem by publishing a standalone doc with the list themselves
  537. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> maybe nobody's suggested yet that they do it
  538. # [16:32] <Lachy> but if they do produce a user friendly document, then I could. But until that happens, I see no reason to drop it from the guide
  539. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> OK, I'll shut up about it.. in the mean time, I guess I'll suggest it to them and see where we get
  540. # [16:33] <Lachy> but I still don't see why you want to keep this information so separate anyway. What problem are you trying to solve by removing them from the authoring guide?
  541. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> Lachy: the problem of having a giganto table in there with information that only a small percentage of users will probably have any use for
  542. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> .. or the problem of it appearing to encourage authors to use gazillions of named character references in their docs
  543. # [16:35] <hallvors> Dr. MikeSmith sets out to cure featuritis :)
  544. # [16:35] <Philip`> It's the same problem that would be solved by removing the complete works of Shakespeare from the authoring guide, if the works were in there in the first place - they're a waste of space for most of the audience, and make it harder to download or read or print out or anything
  545. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> hallvors: I learned about the problems of featuritis from one of my previous jobs :)
  546. # [16:36] <Lachy> it won't encourage them, because I intend to have a section in there that discusses the use of unicode encodings for their documents and explain why they should use the real characters instead of the references
  547. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> Lachy: they'll skip right past your words and go to the pretty pictures
  548. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> I would, at least
  549. # [16:37] <Philip`> Lachy: The probability of a reader reading the giganto table (and getting the wrong impression from it) seems much higher than the chance of them reading one particular paragraph that tells them to not use the table
  550. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> I know Rob Tyner of the MC5 probably would skip the words and go for the pictures also
  551. # [16:37] * MikeSmith raises his Goblet of Rock to the MC5
  552. # [16:37] <Lachy> I don't know who Rob Tyner is
  553. # [16:37] <Lachy> or what MC5 is
  554. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> Lachy: educate yourself, brother
  555. # [16:37] <Philip`> It's the precursor to MD5
  556. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> heh
  557. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> Philip`: don't blaspheme
  558. # [16:38] <Philip`> Rob Tyner is a world-renowed cryptologist
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  560. # [16:38] <Lachy> :-D
  561. # [16:38] <Philip`> *renowned
  562. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> renow is something you do when you when you forget something, then remember it. but just without the "k"
  563. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> "renow" is an abbreviation for "reknow" in that way.. as "whatcha" is an abbreviation for "what are you"
  564. # [16:41] * zcorpan discovers that safari can play and pause animated gifs in <video>, and resizes the video to something when loading in the ahem ttf font
  565. # [16:41] <Philip`> How can you remember something unless you've already membered it?
  566. # [16:42] * MikeSmith writes that one down
  567. # [16:42] <zcorpan> safari can also play a .bmp in <audio>
  568. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> "member" is a good word in a lot of ways
  569. # [16:43] <Philip`> zcorpan: Can you pass a .txt into <audio> and get text-to-speech from it?
  570. # [16:43] <zcorpan> Philip`: no
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  572. # [16:44] <Philip`> zcorpan: That's a shame
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  574. # [16:44] <hallvors> zcorpan: we should implement that :-)
  575. # [16:44] <Lachy> Philip`, you could if there were a codec available that did that
  576. # [16:45] <zcorpan> hallvors: seems better to just load the .txt in a browsing context and hit v
  577. # [16:47] <Philip`> zcorpan: That doesn't work for e.g. interactive games which want to speak to you
  578. # [16:49] <zcorpan> Philip`: true. but we have X+V for that, i think
  579. # [16:49] * MikeSmith finds http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML2/byalpha.html
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  581. # [16:53] <jgraham> fwiw authouring math without named characters would be even more nightmarish than it is with them
  582. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> jgraham: very glad I don't have to do it, then
  583. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> jgraham: are there not tools that allow you to select them from a menu?
  584. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> I mean, you can set up even Emacs to do stuff like that
  585. # [16:55] <Philip`> When you're writing a page full of equations, you really don't want to be selecting each character from a menu
  586. # [16:55] <Philip`> Also you can't even read the characters, because they all look the same when they're in a little font on the screen
  587. # [16:56] <Lachy> editors should just allow users to insert characters with keyboard shortcuts
  588. # [16:56] <jgraham> Lachy: The problem is remembering the keyboard shortcut for integral is harder tahn remembering &int; or whatever
  589. # [16:57] <Dashiva> Use a postprocessor that lets you write entities and replaces them with characters?
  590. # [16:57] <jgraham> Dashiva: That counts as "even harder"
  591. # [16:58] <jgraham> (since in that case you could just use a preprocessor that lets you write something that looks like TeX and outputs mathml
  592. # [16:58] <jgraham> )
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  594. # [16:58] <Lachy> jgraham, the keyboard shortcut should be something that brings up a special input, where you start typing part of it's name, and it offers you a selection of matching characters to insert
  595. # [16:58] <zcorpan> wouldn't a sane author write something like TeX anyway?
  596. # [16:58] <Lachy> like an autocomplete system
  597. # [16:59] <jgraham> Lachy: Well I guess that might work but there are rather a lot of editors that are good at ascii input and rather few that implement the functionaility you describe
  598. # [16:59] <jgraham> So it suffers from being a "tools will save us" argument
  599. # [16:59] <Philip`> It's impossible to visually distinguish ∲foo from ∳foo when you're editing your document source, whereas it's easy to distinguish &cwconint;foo from &awconint;foo
  600. # [17:00] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yes.
  601. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> and now I come across http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-entity-names/
  602. # [17:01] <jgraham> (but that is not always possible particularly if you care what the markup looks like in the end)
  603. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> and now wondering why the above doc has not progressed beyond WD
  604. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xml-entity-names-20071214/byalpha.html
  605. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> good enough for me
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  607. # [17:04] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: doesn't contain AMP;
  608. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: so where did AMP; come from?
  609. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> something that's supported in browsers but not spec'ed?
  610. # [17:06] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: it's in the html5 spec
  611. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: but it's not something we want authors to actually use, right?
  612. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> just something that browsers need to support?
  613. # [17:07] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: it's conforming html5
  614. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: so maybe it shouldn't be
  615. # [17:08] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: fine by me. convince Hixie :)
  616. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> as far a document-conformance goes
  617. # [17:09] * zcorpan learns about &debug=1 in validator.w3.org
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  619. # [17:10] <Philip`> I thought http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/entities-unicode.inc was generated from some XML data provided as part of xml-entity-names
  620. # [17:10] <Philip`> (which includes AMP;)
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  622. # [17:11] <Philip`> (but I may be wrong)
  623. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> Philip`: would be interesting to find out
  624. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> in the mean time, i'm dis-membering that table from my draft at least
  625. # [17:15] <annevk5> yeah, the XML guys included &AMP;
  626. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> annevk5: it doesn't appear to the in the version above
  627. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> is it maybe in an editor's draft?
  628. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> I seem to re-member now somebody posting a URL to one of their EDs a while back
  629. # [17:17] <annevk5> it's part of http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007xml/unicode.xml
  630. # [17:17] <annevk5> linked from http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-entity-names/#source
  631. # [17:18] <annevk5> your version is at least 6 months old anyway
  632. # [17:21] <MikeSmith> annevk5: OK
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  636. # [17:36] * zcorpan has now filed 1 bug and 2 enh req on validator.w3.org
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  640. # [17:44] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i guess you may find this interesting http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6296
  641. # [17:49] <annevk5> at some point we should just obsolete HTML 1-4 and require them to be parsed like HTML5
  642. # [17:51] <zcorpan> annevk5: html5 allows validators to use legacy validation for legacy doctypes
  643. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: is the lack of AMP; QUOT; etc. the only difference you notice between the list in that MathML WG WD and the list that's in the HTML5 spec?
  644. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> I notice the unicode.xml file has all of those in a "html5-uppercase" set
  645. # [17:52] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: it was the only thing i looked for, so yes :)
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  647. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> OK
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  659. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> fyi, David Carlisle just updated the "XML Entity definitions for Characters" draft
  660. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007doc/overview.html#sets
  661. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007doc/html5-uppercase.html
  662. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007doc/html5-uppercase.html
  663. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007doc/byalpha.html
  664. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> the MathML guys rock
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  676. # [19:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: I now see what you might have meant when you asked what about <script> in speculative tokenization
  677. # [19:16] <hsivonen> so yeah, speculating past <svg> or <math> is a problem
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  689. # [20:09] <yecril71> I would like to remind that the whole problem with duplicated identifiers
  690. # [20:09] <yecril71> has been caused by using identifier references in table attributes.
  691. # [20:09] <yecril71> Replacing an identifier with a class name is not the way to go,
  692. # [20:10] <yecril71> unless the algorithm for resolving such references changes as well.
  693. # [20:10] <yecril71> But it looks like a misuse.
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  695. # [20:11] <yecril71> Classes are not Look, its there! things.
  696. # [20:11] <yecril71> quot, amp and apos entities are all in the XML specification.
  697. # [20:12] <yecril71> There is no need for MathML to reproduce them.
  698. # [20:13] <yecril71> The logo WHATWG logo is a nologo.
  699. # [20:13] <yecril71> Instead of building it using LEGO, one should rather make a better one.
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  721. # [21:23] * Joins: avandenhoven (n=avandenh@64.114.102.2)
  722. # [21:23] <avandenhoven> Quick question.
  723. # [21:24] <avandenhoven> Does anyone know if there is a companion to the <noscript> tag.
  724. # [21:24] * Philip` wonders why the Microsoft Connect site is so unbearably slow
  725. # [21:24] <Philip`> avandenhoven: Uh, like <script>?
  726. # [21:24] <avandenhoven> I don't mean the <script> tag per se. I mean tag that will render its TEXT contents if scripting is enabled.
  727. # [21:25] <avandenhoven> Often times we do all sorts of things to avoid the flash of unstyled (or wrongly styled) text that one sees if you're doing one thing when you have script and another when you dont.
  728. # [21:26] <avandenhoven> often we'll write a script class name to the html or body tag and hang style off that class.
  729. # [21:26] <avandenhoven> but there is that instant in which you have no script stles.
  730. # [21:26] <avandenhoven> er styles.
  731. # [21:26] <avandenhoven> it occured to me the other day that you can do <noscript><link rel="stylesheet"..." /></noscript> and that should work
  732. # [21:27] <avandenhoven> but why not also have <yesscript><link rel="stylesheet" href="myscriptedstyle.css" /></yesscript>
  733. # [21:27] <Philip`> What are the problems with <script>document.write('text contents')</script> or <script>document.write('<style>#foo{display:inherit !important}<\/style>')</script><div id=foo style=display:none>text contents</div> or something along those lines?
  734. # [21:28] <avandenhoven> Does that not totally creep people out?
  735. # [21:28] <Philip`> It doesn't creep me out :-)
  736. # [21:29] <avandenhoven> it should.
  737. # [21:29] <Philip`> (You could do it with DOM manipulation if you're opposed to document.write)
  738. # [21:29] <avandenhoven> I realize that there are JS ways to write content.
  739. # [21:29] <avandenhoven> its inherently obtrusive.
  740. # [21:29] <yecril71> I would suggest hiding the content using CSS and revealing it from script.
  741. # [21:30] <avandenhoven> Again, I realize that there are ways to do this now. I'm suggesting that an improvement would be to find a way to do it without resorting to JavaScript.
  742. # [21:30] <yecril71> By clearing the class attribute.
  743. # [21:30] * ojan is now known as ojanlunch
  744. # [21:31] <yecril71> Why exactly would that be an improvement?
  745. # [21:31] <avandenhoven> Easier to read.
  746. # [21:31] <Philip`> avandenhoven: <noscript>/<yesscript> seem inherently obtrusive too, since they're explicitly encoding script-related issues into the markup
  747. # [21:31] <yecril71> div[class="ifscript"] is easy to read.
  748. # [21:32] <avandenhoven> using <yesscript> (aside from its stupid name) is obtrusive but it also means that you don't need to translate the thing you want to include into JavaScript.
  749. # [21:33] <yecril71> But you do not, do you?
  750. # [21:33] <avandenhoven> Converting HTML or CSS into JavaScript is fine if its a one off, "I'm hacking my own site" kinda thinkg
  751. # [21:33] <yecril71> There is no need to include it into the script code.
  752. # [21:33] <avandenhoven> but if you're building something with a CMS, then you have to do something different.
  753. # [21:34] <avandenhoven> An arbitrary block of HTML or CSS is not guaranteed to make sense if you wrap it in a document.write('...');
  754. # [21:34] <yecril71> Just say DIV.ifscript { DISPLAY:NONE } and you are done.
  755. # [21:35] <yecril71> You should never ever document.write, yep.
  756. # [21:35] <Philip`> avandenhoven: I think I'd have to agree that document.write('all the content') is not the best idea if you have a lot of content
  757. # [21:36] <avandenhoven> Another problem with relying on JavaScript to change things is timing.
  758. # [21:36] <yecril71> That means?
  759. # [21:36] <avandenhoven> I can't type fast enough and think coherently... give me a sec
  760. # [21:36] <avandenhoven> :)
  761. # [21:37] <yecril71> Well, this may be called a problem with timing, yes :-)
  762. # [21:37] <avandenhoven> Except in a handcoded, static site, you are going to want to do do things together.
  763. # [21:37] <avandenhoven> usually bootstrapping all your ajaxy widgets and what have you comes on DOM load.
  764. # [21:38] <yecril71> Bootstrapping?
  765. # [21:38] <avandenhoven> Adding JS to markup to make to do pretty things.
  766. # [21:38] <yecril71> This is not bootstrapping.
  767. # [21:38] <avandenhoven> that's what I call it. Sorry.
  768. # [21:38] <yecril71> Bootstrapping is when you want to compile Scheme.
  769. # [21:39] <avandenhoven> I'm pretty sure I never want to compile scheme :)
  770. # [21:39] <yecril71> Because you usually use Scheme to compile Scheme, you are pretty much stuck :-)
  771. # [21:39] <avandenhoven> anyways. if you do things "all at once" you're going to want to tend to put add your "isScripted" or what ever class onDomLoad with the rest of your JavaScript.
  772. # [21:40] <avandenhoven> Now you've suddenly changed what the user sees mid way through.
  773. # [21:40] <yecril71> I think the elements should be .ifscript at the beginning, and the script should clear that afterwards.
  774. # [21:41] <avandenhoven> Either way, the JS people are going to see the unscripted view until dom load.
  775. # [21:41] <yecril71> You can say onload="show()" to get them ASAP.
  776. # [21:42] <avandenhoven> onLoad happens after onDomReady.
  777. # [21:42] <yecril71> You mean window.onLoad or element.onLoad?
  778. # [21:42] <Philip`> avandenhoven: Isn't it easy enough to simply modify your script so the single line of code that sets the isScripted class will be executed immediately when the script is loaded?
  779. # [21:43] <yecril71> The script should clear .ifscript, not set it.
  780. # [21:43] <avandenhoven> clear or set, has no real difference, except in the selectors.
  781. # [21:43] <yecril71> No real difference but easier to follow if everyone sees the same picture though.
  782. # [21:44] <avandenhoven> yes you could put a script immediately after the opening body tag. But that still doesn't elminate the need for
  783. # [21:44] <avandenhoven> <script type="text/javascript">document.write("<li class=\"item0\"><a href=\"#\" onClick=\"window.print()\" onKeyPress=\"window.print()\" />Print Map & Results</a></li>");</script>
  784. # [21:44] <yecril71> What whas that for?
  785. # [21:44] <yecril71> You cannot have "</" in a script block.
  786. # [21:44] <avandenhoven> it makes a link that fires the print dialog.
  787. # [21:45] <avandenhoven> not necessary per se, but my clients like it.
  788. # [21:45] <yecril71> Why not put it directly into HTML?
  789. # [21:45] <avandenhoven> why pollute the DOM with elements that are not valuable unless you have JavaScript.
  790. # [21:46] <yecril71> What is in the DOM is pretty irrelevant where there is no script.
  791. # [21:46] <yecril71> There could be no DOM whatsoever in such an environment.
  792. # [21:47] <avandenhoven> Hmm.
  793. # [21:47] <avandenhoven> maybe I should rethink the logic of some of the code that has been handed down through the aeons.
  794. # [21:48] <yecril71> And clean things up for Christmas.
  795. # [21:48] <avandenhoven> you have no idea what you're asking.
  796. # [21:49] <avandenhoven> We do an integrated online banking/corporate website platform for canadian Credit unions.
  797. # [21:49] <yecril71> Augian stables?
  798. # [21:49] <avandenhoven> I should be so lucky.
  799. # [21:49] <yecril71> Need help?
  800. # [21:50] <avandenhoven> try adding a slave master who doesn't want to change anything becuase its stable.
  801. # [21:50] <gsnedders> yecril71: But layout and (from that) rendering is done from the DOM, so it is still relevant when there is no script
  802. # [21:50] <yecril71> But DISPLAY:NONE has no effect on rendering.
  803. # [21:51] <gsnedders> if CSS isn't enabled, then that's true
  804. # [21:52] <avandenhoven> He means that if you display none the elements you don't want to show when javascript is disabled, you can insert what ever you want.
  805. # [21:52] <avandenhoven> to be really general though (the thing you need when you have complex systems like this) is a class on the body or HTML element and a class on the individual elements. lets you do:
  806. # [21:53] <avandenhoven> .noScript .scriptOnly {display:none;}
  807. # [21:53] <yecril71> If CSS is not enabled, I would just DISPLAY:NONE a warning message: no script? not for you, pal!
  808. # [21:54] <yecril71> This may cause minor problems to users with no CSS, yes.
  809. # [21:54] <avandenhoven> ick. No CSS and JavaScript?
  810. # [21:55] <avandenhoven> you're on your own buddy.
  811. # [21:55] <avandenhoven> that is CSS disabled and JavaScript enabled.
  812. # [21:55] <yecril71> It seems like a very unexpected setup to me.
  813. # [21:56] <yecril71> Do you think it should be supported?
  814. # [21:56] <avandenhoven> yecril71: as it turns out, my team (we have 30+ java developers and 9 web developers, I'm with the web dev team) is looking for a web developer in the next little while.
  815. # [21:56] <avandenhoven> CSS disabled and JavaScript enabled? I don't think you can do anything too reasonable.
  816. # [21:57] <avandenhoven> Except make sure your markup works well with out CSS and have your JS bail at the first opportunity.
  817. # [21:58] <yecril71> Do you think JS-CSS is a valid target for your application?
  818. # [21:59] <avandenhoven> you mean using JS to write the css. I remember looking at that way back in the day and it struck me as being sub optimal.
  819. # [21:59] <yecril71> I mean JS enabled, CSS disabled.
  820. # [22:00] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  821. # [22:00] <avandenhoven> oh that.
  822. # [22:00] <avandenhoven> I don't think so.
  823. # [22:00] <yecril71> And what about -JS-CSS?
  824. # [22:01] <avandenhoven> Sure.
  825. # [22:01] <avandenhoven> We always make sure that you can use our sites with lynx. I find it makes it more likely that screen readers will not choke.
  826. # [22:02] <avandenhoven> We don't worry about it too much but we do think about it.
  827. # [22:02] <avandenhoven> Its not pretty but it is functional.
  828. # [22:02] <yecril71> I thought Lynx should support display:none at least.
  829. # [22:02] <yecril71> Doesnt it?
  830. # [22:02] <krijnh> It doesn't
  831. # [22:03] <yecril71> Ouch.
  832. # [22:03] <yecril71> Then it seems you have to use irrelevant instead.
  833. # [22:03] <yecril71> (which Lynx does not support either, but it is an HTML5 chat after all)
  834. # [22:04] <krijnh> avandenhoven: I totally get your problem, hard to solve :)
  835. # [22:05] <yecril71> Or just say "Please ignore the following message, it is not for you"
  836. # [22:05] <krijnh> We get thought unobtrusive scripting is the way to go, even though that creates a suboptimal experience for like 95% of your users :)
  837. # [22:07] <yecril71> OTOH, short of document.write, you could use a JSON representation of the node to be inserted
  838. # [22:07] <yecril71> and have a library function insert it for you.
  839. # [22:08] <yecril71> Because even if yesscript were defined, Lynx would probably not support it anyway.
  840. # [22:08] <yecril71> So the solution would not solve anything.
  841. # [22:09] <Philip`> krijnh: That's not a hard problem to solve - you just have to ignore what everyone is telling you to do :-)
  842. # [22:09] <yecril71> It would be easier to get Lynx to honour DISPLAY:NONE.
  843. # [22:10] <Philip`> yecril71: That would involve Lynx getting a complete CSS implementation, which is not trivial
  844. # [22:10] <krijnh> Philip`: well, document.write and inline event handlers don't solve it all either :)
  845. # [22:11] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  846. # [22:11] <yecril71> A CSS implementation limited to DISPLAY:NONE is not a complete implementation
  847. # [22:11] <yecril71> and that is the only thing that is needed
  848. # [22:12] <krijnh> That would totally suck
  849. # [22:12] <krijnh> ul ul { display: none; } ul li:hover ul { display: block; }
  850. # [22:12] <krijnh> Go Lynx :)
  851. # [22:13] <yecril71> That sux anyway
  852. # [22:13] <krijnh> I knew it
  853. # [22:13] <yecril71> Lynx or not lynx
  854. # [22:15] <Philip`> yecril71: It would still need all the selectors (and hence a tree model of the document) and the cascading rules, and media types and so on, even if it then ignores all but one of the properties
  855. # [22:16] <yecril71> Doesnt W3C have a reference implementation for that?
  856. # [22:16] <krijnh> yecril71: btw, Opera makes that less sucky (and afaik the only browser that does :hover states when keyboard navigating)
  857. # [22:17] <avandenhoven> Sorry, i had to get back to "real" work for a bit. :)
  858. # [22:17] <Philip`> yecril71: Not that I'm aware of, and reference implementations probably aren't the kind of thing you'd want to ship in a browser anyway
  859. # [22:18] <avandenhoven> Adding something like "yesscript" isn't going to work retroactively. That's fine.
  860. # [22:18] <avandenhoven> I wonder if
  861. # [22:18] <avandenhoven> <script type="text/html"> would be the way to go.
  862. # [22:18] <krijnh> That does work already
  863. # [22:18] <avandenhoven> really?
  864. # [22:19] <avandenhoven> you're saying that if I put <script type="text/html"><h1>You have script enabled</h1></script> I'll actually have what I think I should have?
  865. # [22:19] <krijnh> Didn't JohnResig write something about that?
  866. # [22:20] <krijnh> http://ejohn.org/blog/javascript-micro-templating/
  867. # [22:22] <avandenhoven> Ah that's different but very cool.
  868. # [22:22] <Philip`> avandenhoven: All browsers should parse the content of that <script> as a single text node, and then (if they support scripting) do nothing with it because it's an unknown type, or else (if they don't support scripting) do nothing with it
  869. # [22:23] <Philip`> so you'd never see that text, unless you have some extra scripts that extract the contents and insert them as HTML somewhere else in the document
  870. # [22:23] <krijnh> Doh, that's different indeed :)
  871. # [22:23] <avandenhoven> I was thinking along the lines of: http://gist.github.com/34491
  872. # [22:24] <avandenhoven> I was hoping the style there would be unnecessary.
  873. # [22:24] <avandenhoven> Either way, when you have JS disabled, you see both messages.
  874. # [22:25] <krijnh> document.write('<body class=js-enabled>'); works good enough for styling now
  875. # [22:25] <avandenhoven> I would never write out a body tag like that.
  876. # [22:25] <krijnh> Why not?
  877. # [22:25] <avandenhoven> i'm pretty sure the source wouldn't validate.
  878. # [22:26] <krijnh> Why not?
  879. # [22:26] <avandenhoven> because I'm pretty sure validators don't run JS before validating
  880. # [22:26] <krijnh> They don't need to
  881. # [22:26] <krijnh> The body tag isn't mandatory
  882. # [22:26] <krijnh> http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http://www.youngprofessionaloftheyear.nl/ (don't mind the iframe)
  883. # [22:27] <yecril71> The problem to solve is what to do with no CSS.
  884. # [22:29] <yecril71> Now that Philip` busted my attempt to enhance Lynx, I think @irrelevant is the way to go.
  885. # [22:29] <avandenhoven> either way, I require that a file that opens a tag also closes it (for instance if you're using SSI or a some CMS system... we literally have dozens of includes in any given generated page).
  886. # [22:29] <Philip`> yecril71: (I think it's called 'hidden' now, not 'irrelevant')
  887. # [22:29] <yecril71> Thanks, memorized.
  888. # [22:30] <avandenhoven> I'll look at the irrelevant/hidden attributes.
  889. # [22:30] <avandenhoven> Thanks for the useful discussion. I
  890. # [22:30] <krijnh> avandenhoven: HTML doesn't require it though..
  891. # [22:30] <Philip`> <body><script>document.body.className = 'js'<script> might look nicer than optionally writing <body>
  892. # [22:31] <Philip`> s//\//
  893. # [22:31] <krijnh> So much nicer :)
  894. # [22:31] <avandenhoven> krijnh: No, but if I want to keep my code quality up, I do (I have 30 develoeprs who aren't HTML saavy).
  895. # [22:31] <avandenhoven> Philip: yeah that's what I would have to do.
  896. # [22:31] * Quits: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.12)
  897. # [22:31] <yecril71> In spite of them, you can closeTag("body") at the end.
  898. # [22:32] <yecril71> So that the code markup can balance.
  899. # [22:32] <yecril71> But body opened and not closed is all right as well.
  900. # [22:32] <avandenhoven> I'm of the kindergarden school of web development.
  901. # [22:32] <avandenhoven> If you open it close it.
  902. # [22:32] <krijnh> Agreed, especially if you work with others
  903. # [22:33] <avandenhoven> I know HTML doesn't require it but I find that it avoids trouble.
  904. # [22:33] <yecril71> Like </br >? :-)
  905. # [22:33] * Joins: aroben (n=adamrobe@17.244.18.41)
  906. # [22:33] <avandenhoven> no <br />
  907. # [22:33] <avandenhoven> that's closed.
  908. # [22:33] <avandenhoven> <img />
  909. # [22:33] <avandenhoven> that too.
  910. # [22:33] <yecril71> It is XHTML, not HTML.
  911. # [22:33] <krijnh> *sigh*
  912. # [22:33] <krijnh> It is HTML5
  913. # [22:33] <Philip`> It is Real World HTML
  914. # [22:33] <yecril71> In HTML, it is <BR >>
  915. # [22:34] <avandenhoven> that lack of closing for empty tags is a hold over of SGML that was, IMHO, a mistake.
  916. # [22:34] <yecril71> It is a manifestation of Occam razor.
  917. # [22:35] <avandenhoven> Until you start making tag soup.
  918. # [22:35] <avandenhoven> which is what HTML5 in current browsers really is.
  919. # [22:35] <Dashiva> It's only tag soup if you want it to be
  920. # [22:36] <yecril71> <br /> in HTML4 is tag soup
  921. # [22:36] <avandenhoven> what is the model for <body> <section><p></body> if you aren't an HTML5 browser?
  922. # [22:36] <yecril71> <body ><section /><p /></body > in IE
  923. # [22:36] <avandenhoven> yecril71: exactly and its absolutely clear for a use what it is.
  924. # [22:37] <yecril71> I am not sure about Firefox?
  925. # [22:38] <avandenhoven> I would love to continue this but I'll waste a whole day if I don't sign off.
  926. # [22:38] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  927. # [22:38] <avandenhoven> I'll talk to you guys later!
  928. # [22:38] * Parts: avandenhoven (n=avandenh@64.114.102.2)
  929. # [22:38] <yecril71> Are the positions in your team public?
  930. # [22:39] <Philip`> Only a whole day? I've wasted over a year here!
  931. # [22:43] <yecril71> script type="text/bourne-shell"
  932. # [22:43] <yecril71> cat <<EOF
  933. # [22:44] <yecril71> Hey, what have I done?
  934. # [22:44] <yecril71> All right, I am back.
  935. # [22:44] <yecril71> \/script.
  936. # [22:45] * yecril71 does not know how to insert a leading slash.
  937. # [22:45] <Dashiva> /press ctrl while pressing enter
  938. # [22:46] <Dashiva> or use /say /whatever with leading slash
  939. # [22:46] <jcranmer> / in irssi
  940. # [22:46] * Quits: famicom (i=famicom@5ED2FF2D.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Leaving")
  941. # [22:46] <gsnedders> yecril71: <br /> isn't tag soup, it just means something else :P
  942. # [22:46] <gsnedders> double /
  943. # [22:46] <jcranmer> (as in `/ ', not `/')
  944. # [22:46] <gsnedders> i.e., ///foo
  945. # [22:47] <gsnedders> *//
  946. # [22:47] * gsnedders has screwed up
  947. # [22:48] * Joins: doublec (n=Chris_Do@202.0.36.64)
  948. # [23:06] * yecril71 finds out it is hard to DT an adjective
  949. # [23:06] * yecril71 decides to LI DFN instead
  950. # [23:08] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-105-223.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  951. # [23:22] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  952. # [23:39] * Joins: jruderman_ (n=jruderma@guest-232.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  953. # [23:42] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  954. # [23:42] * ojanlunch is now known as ojan
  955. # [23:52] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  956. # Session Close: Thu Dec 11 00:00:00 2008

The end :)