/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-12-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 12 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:06] * Joins: Dorward (i=foobar@91.84.53.6)
  4. # [00:06] <Dorward> Hi. I seem to recall that Google did a survey of webpages to see what constructs were commonly used as part of their HTML5 work. I can't find it though, can anyone give me a pointer? Thanks.
  5. # [00:08] <hasather> Dorward: http://code.google.com/webstats/index.html
  6. # [00:09] <Dorward> hsivonen: Fantastic. Thanks very much.
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  9. # [00:10] <hasather> Dorward: there's also Opera's MAMA for similar stuff: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama/
  10. # [00:11] <Dorward> hasather: I've already checked that out - didn't have the data I was looking for :(
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  12. # [00:14] <Philip`> Dorward: http://philip.html5.org/data.html has various bits of data but maybe nothing relevant
  13. # [00:14] <Hixie> woohoo!
  14. # [00:14] * Hixie elevates his aforementioned mine support structure
  15. # [00:15] <Hixie> Dorward: what data are you looking for?
  16. # [00:16] <Dorward> Hixie: Proportion of documents with an XHTML Doctype that are valid/invalid and served as each of the acceptable mime types for XHTML.
  17. # [00:16] <Hixie> i don't think i published those numbers
  18. # [00:17] <Dorward> Hixie: It doesn't look like you did :)
  19. # [00:17] <Hixie> but iirc in one study i did application/xhtml was 0.0044%, xhtml as text/xml or application/xml wasn't visible at all, and xhtml was about 15% of all text/html
  20. # [00:17] * Philip` only looked at a hundred thousand pages so he doesn't have enough non-text/html content to get any useful numbers
  21. # [00:17] <Hixie> (from memory, so those numbers are likely wrong, but they're in the right ballpark)
  22. # [00:17] <Dorward> Hixie: Thanks
  23. # [00:18] <Dorward> Hixie: May I quote you (with your proviso)?
  24. # [00:18] <Hixie> i used the namespace as the trigger though, not the doctype, iirc
  25. # [00:18] <Hixie> for detecting xhtml in text/html, i mean
  26. # [00:18] <Dorward> Yup
  27. # [00:18] <Hixie> sure, quote away
  28. # [00:18] <Dorward> Thanks
  29. # [00:18] <Hixie> but like i said, these numbers are likely somewhat bogus
  30. # [00:18] <Hixie> and it was a year or more ago now
  31. # [00:18] <Dorward> Indeed
  32. # [00:18] <Dorward> I doubt things will have changed a great deal since then
  33. # [00:18] <Hixie> so application/xhtml+xml is probably at least 0.0045% now!
  34. # [00:19] <Hixie> (might even be 0.2%, which i think i saw in another study i did, now that i think about it)
  35. # [00:19] <Hixie> (though i don't recall what that study was biased towards, so i'm not sure what that number was)
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  37. # [00:19] <Hixie> either way application/xhtml+xml is far less common than, say, word documents
  38. # [00:19] <Hixie> at least in the google index
  39. # [00:20] <Hixie> of course it might be that the google index is biased against xhtml in some way
  40. # [00:20] <Hixie> though i'm not aware of such a bias
  41. # [00:20] <Dorward> Off the top of your head, do you know what Accept header GoogleBot outputs?
  42. # [00:20] <Hixie> (e.g. maybe sites that do content negotiation serve text/html to google, not application/xhtml+xml)
  43. # [00:20] <Hixie> not sure
  44. # [00:20] <Hixie> probably */* though
  45. # [00:21] <Hixie> Dorward: trying to win some argument somewhere? :-)
  46. # [00:21] <Dorward> That would fail to trip all those content negotiation systems that trigger on an explicit application/xhtml+xml
  47. # [00:22] <Philip`> Dorward: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www3.wind.ne.jp/hassii/env.cgi - looks like */*
  48. # [00:22] <Dorward> Hixie: Someone using one of the content negotiation systems with missing q support has exploded over www-validator. I'm just trying to address his points. At the moment is he demanding a system for content negotiation that is (a) easy (b) pure Apache conf (c) doesn't involve symlinks and (d) doesn't involve multiple files for each document
  49. # [00:22] <Dorward> Philip`: heh. Thanks.
  50. # [00:26] <Hixie> content negotiation was such a mistake
  51. # [00:26] <Hixie> content negotiation and the content-type header both in fact where imho design mistakes of http
  52. # [00:27] <Hixie> we should have had a 1:1 mapping of resources to representations, and we should have used well-defined magic sequences to recognise types, so there could be no content sniffing or content-type mislabelling
  53. # [00:27] <Hixie> but oh well
  54. # [00:27] <Hixie> too late for that i guess
  55. # [00:27] <Hixie> s/where/were/
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  58. # [00:38] <Philip`> Hixie: How would the use of magic sequences interact with legacy file formats that don't have any unique distinguishing sequences?
  59. # [00:39] <Hixie> like what?
  60. # [00:40] <Dashiva> plain text?
  61. # [00:41] <Hixie> plain text would be the default fallback format
  62. # [00:42] <Dashiva> So every time a new format appears, you get binary soup in your face while each web server is updated?
  63. # [00:42] <Dashiva> *web browser
  64. # [00:42] <Dashiva> Or maybe either would do
  65. # [00:42] <Hixie> web servers wouldn't ever have to change to support new types under this model
  66. # [00:43] <Hixie> web browsers could detect binary data and treat them as we treat unknown binary data now
  67. # [00:43] <Hixie> (using a well-defined mechanism for detecting binary data -- it would be the fallback detection step before falling back to plain text)
  68. # [00:44] <takkaria> instead of hooking in to support mime types, I guess plugins would hook in for certain binary sequences?
  69. # [00:45] <Hixie> yup
  70. # [00:45] <Hixie> similar to what file(1) does on unix, but with a normative specification and a defined detection order
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  81. # [01:37] <Hixie> ok the problem i dug myself into is now definitely tractable
  82. # [01:37] <Hixie> i might be able to check this in soon even
  83. # [01:38] <Hixie> only 8 known remaining issues with the patch
  84. # [01:38] <Dashiva> Where did you find all the dirt needed to fill in the hole?
  85. # [01:39] <Hixie> i found that my aforementioned mine support structure could be used to build an above-group structure as well
  86. # [01:44] <Philip`> Hixie: About magic sequences: What if I have e.g. a perfectly sensible plain text file (which should be opened in a text editor or displayed directly in the browser) and a perfectly sensible CSV file (which should be opened in a spreadsheet program), and they contain identical bytes?
  87. # [01:47] <Philip`> or what if I have a zip file containing some arbitrary data that should be downloaded and saved to disk, and an ODF file (which is structurally just a zip file) that should be opened in a word processor?
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  90. # [01:54] <Hixie> shepazu: yt?
  91. # [01:55] <Hixie> shepazu: will DOM3 Events have Event.returnValue ?
  92. # [01:55] <Hixie> Philip`: ODF came after the web, so it could have been designed with this structure in mind
  93. # [01:56] <Hixie> Philip`: i agree that csv files are a minor problem
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  95. # [01:56] <Hixie> but it's not like what we have now is without problems either
  96. # [01:57] <Hixie> imho the problems of magic sequences are far less serious that today's problems
  97. # [01:57] <Hixie> and would mostly have gone away through common practice (e.g. a CSV2 format that has a blank line at the top that says "CSV") by now
  98. # [01:58] <Hixie> (and text/csv wasn't registered til 2005)
  99. # [02:00] * Hixie tries to work out how to deal with the differences between DOM3 Events and what is needed for 'beforeunload'
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  103. # [02:30] * Hixie gets a headache trying to work out how to spec all the legacy cruft in http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/src/events/nsJSEventListener.cpp (specifically ::HandleEvent)
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  106. # [02:47] <Hixie> hmmmmmm
  107. # [02:47] <Hixie> shepazu: nevermind, looks like I can get away with just having returnValue on a custom Event object
  108. # [02:52] <Hixie> hmmm... yes.... yes...
  109. # [02:52] <Hixie> have a custom Event object with a mustable returnValue
  110. # [02:52] <Hixie> and onbeforeunload would set it if it hadn't been set already
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  296. # [09:50] * Hixie checks in a multi-1000 line patch to the spec
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  307. # [10:41] <Hixie> i'm totally addicted to http://tetrisapp.appspot.com/
  308. # [10:41] <Hixie> this is getting ridiculous
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  311. # [10:50] <macnetic> hi
  312. # [10:50] <Hixie> hi
  313. # [10:50] <macnetic> I have a question about cache-control meta tags...
  314. # [10:50] <macnetic> the way I read http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.9.1 , only one of these tags should be used
  315. # [10:51] <macnetic> and if private is used, you're basically telling the browser it's okay to cache, right?
  316. # [10:52] <macnetic> so if you first use no-cache, and then private, it wouldn't be surprising if the browser caches the page?
  317. # [10:53] <Hixie> well
  318. # [10:54] <Hixie> no-cache doesn't mean it shouldn't be cached
  319. # [10:54] <Hixie> it means it shouldn't be used without checking with the server first
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  321. # [10:55] <ap> note that the browser can still put the page into b/f cache, which is not affected by HTTP headers
  322. # [10:55] <Hixie> that too
  323. # [10:58] <macnetic> b/f cache?
  324. # [10:59] <Hixie> back-forward
  325. # [10:59] <macnetic> ic
  326. # [10:59] <macnetic> d'oh
  327. # [11:00] <macnetic> but am I right that private will override other tags that's supposed to avoid caching?
  328. # [11:01] <Hixie> i can't see anything in http that specifies that
  329. # [11:01] <macnetic> hmm
  330. # [11:01] <macnetic> ok
  331. # [11:01] <macnetic> thanks
  332. # [11:01] <Hixie> http is notoriously vague about edge cases
  333. # [11:01] <Hixie> not as bad as html4, but still
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  335. # [11:01] <macnetic> heh
  336. # [11:02] <macnetic> so implementations may vary, then?
  337. # [11:02] <macnetic> it just seems odd to tell the browser it can cache the page when you're trying to avoid caching...
  338. # [11:03] <macnetic> the scheduling software we use generates time table web pages
  339. # [11:03] <macnetic> when it was upgraded the browser we use starting caching the pages
  340. # [11:04] <macnetic> I thought maybe the addition of a private tag to the already existing no-cache tag could be the explanation...
  341. # [11:04] <Hixie> implementations do vary, yeah
  342. # [11:04] <Hixie> if you want to avoid caching just set Cache-Control: no-cache
  343. # [11:04] <macnetic> I would
  344. # [11:05] <macnetic> but this is shrinkwrap software :(
  345. # [11:05] <Hixie> ah well
  346. # [11:05] <Hixie> file a bug with your upstream provider :-)
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  350. # [11:21] <macnetic> that's what I'm trying to do, but when I quoted the standard and gave my interpretation of no-cache/private/public, they just replied that they'd checked our server and found the clock was 20 minutes off, and when they corrected that the web pages seemed to update properly...
  351. # [11:22] <macnetic> even though we'd previously said that it showed info for _yesterday_
  352. # [11:22] <macnetic> how they made the connection between 20 minutes and yesterday I don't quite get, but... :-\
  353. # [11:22] <macnetic> thanks anyway! :)
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  355. # [11:30] <Hixie> sorry couldn't help more!
  356. # [11:33] <Hixie> nn
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  364. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> had lunch with a guy today who told me (in the context of learning/mastering Japanese), "The only way to truly learn a new language is to write a dictionary for the language."
  365. # [12:21] * MikeSmith wonders where zcorpan my be
  366. # [12:22] * annevk5 can see him
  367. # [12:23] <annevk5> he's disabled today
  368. # [12:23] <annevk5> no laptop
  369. # [12:23] <annevk5> same for jgraham
  370. # [12:23] * annevk5 doesn't know why
  371. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> annevk5: if/when you see him today, please tell him I finally got around to splitting up the input and button stuff
  372. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#input.text-toc
  373. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#button.submit-toc
  374. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> fwiw
  375. # [12:28] <annevk5> i'll tell him to read archives
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  378. # [13:06] <gpy> annevk5: yo whats up?
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  385. # [13:58] <annevk5> gpy, not much really :)
  386. # [13:58] <annevk5> gpy, standards meeting in Sweden
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  388. # [14:04] <gpy> ah
  389. # [14:04] <gpy> where
  390. # [14:04] <gpy> im in dk
  391. # [14:06] <annevk5> Linköping
  392. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> gpy: do the restaurants in Denmark still serve tons of cigarette smoke along with every meal?
  393. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> that's one thing I really like about Denmakr
  394. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> you don't have to buy your own cigarettes
  395. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> you can just go to any restaurant and enjoy everybody else's cigarette smoke
  396. # [14:13] <gpy> annevk5: ah okay
  397. # [14:13] <gpy> MikeSmith: im not danish, im swedish, i just work here, wich is good, salarys are higher + a 40% profit in currency ;D
  398. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> gpy: excellent. I bet cigarettes are cheaper there too.
  399. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> in Norway you can buy half a cigarette
  400. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> and it will only cost you 20 kroner
  401. # [14:17] <gpy> MikeSmith: a little
  402. # [14:20] <annevk5> party tonight, then back home tomorrow for a few days :)
  403. # [14:20] <annevk5> well, "days"
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  411. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> virtuelv sporting the jailhouse beard
  412. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> http://flickr.com/photos/hendry/3101837007/in/set-72157611171664224/
  413. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> PHB waving for mercy ("Don't hurt me Arve!")
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  415. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> hendry: thanks for posting photos
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  457. # [17:43] * Philip` doesn't like how Amazon advertises EC2/S3 prices without including tax
  458. # [17:43] <Philip`> It adds an unexpected six cents onto my bill :-(
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  465. # [18:31] <hsivonen> r2529 looks like fun
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  473. # [19:28] <gsnedders> does anything support the mid URI scheme?
  474. # [19:29] <hsivonen> gsnedders: Outlook?
  475. # [19:29] <gsnedders> ah
  476. # [19:29] <hsivonen> oh. mid. sorry.
  477. # [19:29] <hsivonen> I was thinking of something else
  478. # [19:30] <gsnedders> :)
  479. # [19:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: does Gecko already comply with your latest script execution spec update?
  480. # [19:52] <gsnedders> hsivonen: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/producing-xml/ needs the section on XML 1.0 updated now that 5th ed. is a REC
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  482. # [19:53] <hsivonen> gsnedders: yeah, it should instruct people to always target 4th ed.
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  494. # [21:19] <Hixie> you should all play tetrisapp.appspot.com
  495. # [21:19] <Hixie> hsivonen: no
  496. # [21:19] <Hixie> hsivonen: only IE does
  497. # [21:19] <Hixie> hsivonen: other browsers allow you to tall into scripts that are "frozen" in the spec
  498. # [21:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: any other differences?
  499. # [21:20] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-0c6baabc055d92c3)
  500. # [21:21] <Hixie> the way onbeforeunload fires around document.open() wasn't very interoperable
  501. # [21:22] <Hixie> and in general this whole area is not very interoperable in the edge cases
  502. # [21:22] <hsivonen> finding the differences should be fun...
  503. # [21:33] <Hixie> hahahahahahaha
  504. # [21:33] <Hixie> lastweekinhtml5 is funny
  505. # [21:33] <Hixie> given that the whatwg has more non-american involvement than american involvement
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  509. # [21:47] <jwalden> hm? where's the "amerocentric" note in <http://blog.whatwg.org/this-week-in-html-5-episode-15>?
  510. # [21:47] <smedero> http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/
  511. # [21:47] <smedero> (you're looking in the wrong place. :-D)
  512. # [21:49] <jwalden> oh, "last" week
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  514. # [21:51] <jwalden> man, this is just weird
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  526. # Session Close: Sat Dec 13 00:00:00 2008

The end :)