/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-12-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 23 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:41] <takkaria> it depends an awful lot on your citation style
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  34. # [03:24] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/document/open/007.html
  35. # [03:24] <Hixie> can someone explain to me IE's behavior with that test
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  76. # [06:47] <MikeSmith> is the HTML5 SQL database feature supported in Mozilla trunk now?
  77. # [06:47] <MikeSmith> I noticed http://twitter.com/millenomi/status/1072607044
  78. # [06:47] <MikeSmith> "@factoryjoe It's just HTML5 databases put to use. Already available in Safari 3.0 and up and recent Firefoxes."
  79. # [06:51] <MikeSmith> ne'er mind
  80. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> the Opera 10 "Download All Snapshots" feature doesn't seem to be working for me
  81. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> I see from http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2008/12/19/the-christmas-edition that a new snapshot is available
  82. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> and I have the "download all snapshots" option selected
  83. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> but if I do "check for updates", Opera tells me I already have the latest version
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  86. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> I guess Edward Yang's been making progress on his HTML5 parser in PHP
  87. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> yesterday: http://twitter.com/ezyang/status/1071810135 "The score... Edward: 425, HTML5: 739 + 8 infinite loops."
  88. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> today about 30 minutes ago: http://twitter.com/ezyang/status/1073793318 "Final score... Edward: 1108, HTML5: 0. Of course, that's ignoring tests of parse errors, doctypes and self-closed tags."
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  102. # [08:29] <yecril71> The instruction
  103. # [08:29] <yecril71> w.w = window
  104. # [08:29] <yecril71> creates a proxy.
  105. # [08:30] <yecril71> Immediately after that, !(w.w === window).
  106. # [08:30] <yecril71> Because w.w is a proxy to window.
  107. # [08:31] <yecril71> It has nothing to do with document.open.
  108. # [08:33] <yecril71> U+000B is a range.
  109. # [08:34] <yecril71> It begins with U+000B and ends with U+000B.
  110. # [08:34] <yecril71> (Or it can be trivially coalesced to a range, if you prefer).
  111. # [08:36] <yecril71> I can see no necessity to delete an image for a page that the user failed to save on the server.
  112. # [08:36] <yecril71> Once the user uploads the image to the server, it can remain there until the user explicitly requests its deletion.
  113. # [08:42] <Hixie> yecril71: window.w = window; window.w === window;
  114. # [08:42] <Hixie> is true
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  116. # [08:51] <yecril71> However, w.w !== window.
  117. # [08:51] <yecril71> window.w = window is equivalent to w = window.
  118. # [08:51] <yecril71> w.w = window is different.
  119. # [08:54] <weinig> yecril71: what is the first w
  120. # [08:54] <weinig> yecril71: cause it looks like that should be a reference error
  121. # [08:55] <Hixie> window.w = window; w.w === window is true
  122. # [08:56] <yecril71> The first w is a parameter to b.
  123. # [08:57] <weinig> ok, this is about Hixie's test
  124. # [08:58] <yecril71> alert(w.w === window) shows false at my place, immediately after the assignment.
  125. # [08:59] <yecril71> window.w = window is equivalent to w = window.
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  127. # [09:00] <yecril71> I think Hixie needs some sleep.
  128. # [09:02] <yecril71> undefined == undefined, as of the Microsoft engine.
  129. # [09:04] <yecril71> "window.window.window" is not the same as "".
  130. # [09:04] <yecril71> "window.window.window." is.
  131. # [09:04] <yecril71> But only in the global context.
  132. # [09:05] <jwalden_> I think none of you are being particularly clear
  133. # [09:05] <jwalden_> :-P
  134. # [09:05] <yecril71> Prefixing with "window." can be used to single out global variables.
  135. # [09:06] <yecril71> Dead season for thinking :-P
  136. # [09:08] <yecril71> "window" does not belong to javascript. WSH has no "window".
  137. # [09:08] * jwalden_ nitpickingly wishes that page closed the document it opened so the browser throbber would stop
  138. # [09:10] * yecril71 concurs
  139. # [09:26] <annevk> http://twitter.com/jontangerine/statuses/1027745900 ?
  140. # [09:29] <annevk> http://twitter.com/laura_carlson/statuses/1066180499 lol
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  153. # [10:50] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  164. # [11:56] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  165. # [11:56] * Set by Hixie on Thu Oct 23 14:38:15
  166. # [12:02] <Lachy> jgraham, it's interesting that the some of the things you listed technically aren't HTML
  167. # [12:04] <jgraham> Lachy: In what sense?
  168. # [12:04] <Lachy> Offline Storage is a DOM API, MathML and SVG
  169. # [12:05] <annevk> offline storage is also <html manifest> ...
  170. # [12:05] <jgraham> Lachy: Well it's in "HTML5". It's only "not HTML" if you try to make some distinction between HTML the markup language and HTML the application platform
  171. # [12:06] <Lachy> annevk, that would be covered by offline applications in his list
  172. # [12:06] <jgraham> (also the ability to embed SVG+MathML is a feature of the markup language so I disagree with that regardless of definitions)
  173. # [12:07] <jgraham> s/that/that not being technically not HTML/
  174. # [12:07] <jgraham> s/not being/being/
  175. # [12:11] <jgraham> (I guess Web Sockets should make the top 5 but I don't kno what to drop...)
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  179. # [12:42] <annevk> parsing rules
  180. # [12:42] <annevk> they're boring :)
  181. # [12:43] <jgraham> annevk: Yeah, but "better browser interoperability" is interesting
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  183. # [12:44] <annevk> not as interesting as web sockets :p
  184. # [12:46] <jgraham> I was thinking "Rich Form Controls" were sort of covered on the original list so they maybe didn't need to be covered again
  185. # [12:46] <hendry> annevk: have you seen the socket demo here http://www.jnext.org/
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  187. # [13:15] <Philip`> jgraham: MathML+SVG in text/html doesn't seem like it'd be an exciting feature to many people - almost nobody even uses non-inline SVG, despite that being easy and useful and well supported
  188. # [13:15] <olliej> yoyo annevk
  189. # [13:17] <Philip`> jgraham: Also I don't see why anyone would care about parsing rules, because they can just write proper valid pseudo-XHTML like they always have and it'll work fine in current browsers
  190. # [13:19] <Philip`> Things that are exciting to people here are probably almost completely separate from what is exciting to normal people :-)
  191. # [13:28] <jgraham> Philip`: IIRC there was a bug in an early version of Google maps that was due to a difference in parsing comments before the HTML element or somesuch
  192. # [13:28] <Philip`> Most people don't write Google Maps
  193. # [13:29] <jgraham> Yes, but most people don't write site x for any value of x
  194. # [13:29] <Philip`> Most people don't write sites of equivalent complexity to Google Maps
  195. # [13:29] <Lachy> yeah, most people don't get too excited about the parsing rules themselves. They will only get indirectly appreciate them once they start seeing real practical results from more interoperable browsers
  196. # [13:30] <Lachy> s/only get/only/
  197. # [13:30] <jgraham> I know :) But I thought that high on authors list of complaints about HTML was poor interoperability
  198. # [13:31] <Philip`> I think I've encountered DOM uninteroperability far more than parsing uninteroperability
  199. # [13:31] <Lachy> CSS and DOM interop are bigger issues
  200. # [13:31] <jgraham> Obviouslyt HTML5 won't help with the CSS or DOM problems but it seems like something that helps interoperability would be seen as good
  201. # [13:34] <hsivonen> cool things are HTML5 features. see http://www.google.com/search?q=%22html5+geolocation%22
  202. # [13:35] <hsivonen> as for quality and popularity, see w3schools :-(
  203. # [13:35] <Philip`> jgraham: "helps interoperability" seems too abstract a concept to get excited about - people will only care when it's solving the real problems they encounter, which are much more likely to be CSS and DOM problems
  204. # [13:36] <Lachy> where do people get the idea that geolocation is part of HTML5?
  205. # [13:36] <jgraham> Lachy: Everything cool happening in the web is part of HTML5
  206. # [13:37] <jgraham> (actually geolocation was floated on WHATWG list at one point so that might be why)
  207. # [13:40] * Philip` hopes browsers could detect when they are running on a desktop PC, and therefore are unlikely to be moved, so if they don't have a GPS receiver then they could simply ask the user to enter their address once and then they will be able to implement the Geolocation API
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  209. # [13:42] <Philip`> (and for laptops they could just ask for the address of each wireless access point you connect to)
  210. # [13:43] <Lachy> Philip`, or they could use wi-fi access point triangulation techniques
  211. # [13:50] * gsnedders hit an interoperability issue in Prince yesterday
  212. # [13:52] <jgraham> It raised an OutOfCash eception on your bank account?
  213. # [13:53] <jgraham> *exception
  214. # [14:02] <Philip`> Lachy: That sounds like something that would need added OS and driver support (and hardware support too?), so it's unlikely to happen any time soon except on mobile devices
  215. # [14:06] <Lachy> Philip`, AFAIK, it only needs software that works like Navizon and an internet connection
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  233. # [16:47] <annevk> Philip`, Skyhook already works on laptops, no?
  234. # [16:49] <annevk> hmm, maybe not
  235. # [16:51] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  237. # [16:56] <Philip`> annevk: Sounds like it could do - it seems to just look at the signal strength of visible WAPs and compare against a database of predetermined locations of known WAPs, and doesn't need any lower-level access to the wireless hardware
  238. # [16:57] <Philip`> I was assuming "wi-fi access point triangulation" was something that depended more on physical properties of the wireless signal or something
  239. # [16:59] <jgraham> There are places with enough known WAPs that that works?
  240. # [17:01] <Philip`> Presumably only in cities with enough customers to justify the data collection to seed the system
  241. # [17:01] <Philip`> (then it sounds like it'll update the location database dynamically when users encounter new unknown WAPs)
  242. # [17:01] <annevk> jgraham, apparently so
  243. # [17:02] <Philip`> You only have to make it work in the cities where tech reviewers live :-)
  244. # [17:05] <jgraham> Philip`: I guess that is true. Maybe just "return Silicon Valley" would be a good v1 implementation, with "improved accuracy" being a v2 feature
  245. # [17:06] <jgraham> (I guess it would be just as useful as an implementation that required an actual wifi signal around here)
  246. # [17:07] * gavin wonders how it uniquely identifies access points
  247. # [17:07] <gavin> I suppose just using the MAC address is probably good enough, but I wonder if they try using more than that to avoid problems with spoofing
  248. # [17:10] * Parts: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.23.189)
  249. # [17:11] * jgraham notes that Skyhook do indeed show a map of San Fransisco as their example of urban coverage
  250. # [17:11] <jgraham> and that there is no coverage here :)
  251. # [17:12] <jgraham> gavin: http://www.skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/submit_ap.php implies that it is just MAC address
  252. # [17:13] <Philip`> My computer seems to like identifying WAPs by their BSSID
  253. # [17:13] <Philip`> which appears to be typically the same as the MAC
  254. # [17:14] * gavin helps them out by submitting the ~6 AP MAC addresses he can currently see from Orleans, Ontario
  255. # [17:14] <annevk> I wonder if there's an "open data" equivalent
  256. # [17:15] <gavin> hmm, that would be cool
  257. # [17:15] * Philip` should submit the 11 WAPs he can see from his small village in England, while claiming to be in New York
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  260. # [17:21] <gavin> hmm, they already have data for "six Canadian markets where the majority of that nation’s people live" apparently
  261. # [17:22] * gavin decides he doesn't want to help them out
  262. # [17:24] * jgraham has visions of lots of canadians living in market stalls
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  271. # [17:53] <annevk> hsivonen, CSS3 has vh and vw units
  272. # [17:53] <annevk> (re: some question from 1220)
  273. # [17:53] <annevk> s/question/wish/
  274. # [17:55] <BenMillard> krijnh, possible new slogan for the logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081223#l-205
  275. # [17:56] <annevk> krijnh, there should be a CSS rule for .flagged:target
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  278. # [18:01] <BenMillard> annevk, you can sneak extra rules into the "CSS for ..." textboxes on the IRC Logs front page
  279. # [18:02] <BenMillard> annevk2, I'm using this in "CSS for lines at you": background: #efe; } li.flagged { background: #9f9; } li:target { background: #fa0;
  280. # [18:02] <krijnh> BenMillard: sorry I didn't respond to your log improvements a few days back
  281. # [18:02] <BenMillard> krijnh, hey no worries :)
  282. # [18:02] <annevk> BenMillard, sure, but I want krijnh to fix it :p
  283. # [18:03] <krijnh> Color?
  284. # [18:03] <BenMillard> annevk, does having a checkbox instead of a coloured <span> help? http://projectcerbera.com/!dev/irc-logs/day
  285. # [18:04] <annevk> oh, I like your color scheme
  286. # [18:05] <BenMillard> yay :)
  287. # [18:05] * krijnh too :)
  288. # [18:05] <BenMillard> there's demos for other types of page if you click "IRC Logs" or chop the end off the URL
  289. # [18:06] <BenMillard> the colours are copied from the whatwg.org spec CSS
  290. # [18:06] <krijnh> Just no time to implement/copy them yet
  291. # [18:06] <BenMillard> yeah, modifying irc logging systems when it's nearly Xmas would be pretty sad :P
  292. # [18:07] <krijnh> Correct ;)
  293. # [18:07] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@pool-71-104-190-47.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  294. # [18:07] <annevk> hey, I was considering hacking on my blog!
  295. # [18:09] <krijnh> I'm...My girlfriend is considering visiting our parents ;)
  296. # [18:09] <annevk> my parents considered as much for me :p
  297. # [18:15] * Quits: aroben (i=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  299. # [18:18] * Philip` wonders if working on tokenisers over Christmas would also be considered pretty sad :-)
  300. # [18:20] <BenMillard> I'll probably be doing family stuff
  301. # [18:21] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
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  303. # [18:39] <annevk> Philip`, jgraham and I did that (or at least close to Christmas) two years ago
  304. # [18:40] <annevk> not sure if that answers your question though :)
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  320. # [20:26] <takkaria> Philip`: I plan to be doing that too
  321. # [20:37] <Hixie> annevk: i
  322. # [20:37] <Hixie> er
  323. # [20:37] <Hixie> annevk: i've run into a lot of people who think that "html5" is the name for the open web standards stack
  324. # [20:39] * dave_levin|Away is now known as dave_levin
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  330. # [21:17] <gsnedders> hmm…
  331. # [21:18] * gsnedders still hasn't worked out how to organize his English notes
  332. # [21:20] <gsnedders> I want to have a quote, and notes related to that quote
  333. # [21:20] <gsnedders> And then I want to categorize those quotes
  334. # [21:21] <gsnedders> The only problem is some quotes need to be in multiple categories
  335. # [21:21] <takkaria> can you not use a text editor like everyone else? :)
  336. # [21:21] <gsnedders> takkaria: :P
  337. # [21:21] <gsnedders> takkaria: My problem is I don't want to duplicate the notes.
  338. # [21:22] <jmb> ah. you want transclusion </ted nelson>
  339. # [21:31] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  340. # [21:40] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  341. # [21:42] <Philip`> gsnedders: Use tags, not categories
  342. # [21:43] <gsnedders> But I can't be bothered writing code :P
  343. # [21:43] <Philip`> (Then you could make a tag cloud! It'd be great)
  344. # [21:43] <gsnedders> Ideally I want the quotes sorted by page reference
  345. # [21:56] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@pool-173-49-118-225.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  347. # [22:02] <gsnedders> Does IE6 support XPath?
  348. # [22:05] <gsnedders> What would be the most performant way of doing something like //dd[starts-with(., "Themes: ")]?
  349. # [22:07] <Philip`> /<dd>Themes: /.match(document.body.innerHTML)
  350. # [22:08] <gsnedders> While actually returning the dd element?
  351. # [22:09] <Philip`> /<dd>Themes: (.*?)<\/dd>/.match(document.body.innerHTML)
  352. # [22:10] <gsnedders> The sad thing is I know that probably will really be the quickest solution
  353. # [22:12] <Philip`> There's no need to overcomplicate things :-)
  354. # [22:12] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  355. # [22:13] * gsnedders gets "TypeError: Result of expression '/<dd>Themes: (.*?)<\/dd>/.match' [undefined] is not a function."
  356. # [22:13] <Philip`> I can never remember how JS RegExps work - check the documentation :-p
  357. # [22:14] <Philip`> (I can never remember how Python 're' works either)
  358. # [22:14] <Philip`> (But I can always remember in Perl that you just do $foo =~ /bar/ which is nice and easy and doesn't involve forgettable method names)
  359. # [22:15] <gsnedders> String.match or RegExp.exec
  360. # [22:21] <gsnedders> document.body.innerHTML.match(/<dd>Themes: (.*)/g) returns stuff
  361. # [22:21] <gsnedders> document.body.innerHTML.match(/<dd>Themes: (.*)<\/dd>/g) does not
  362. # [22:22] <gsnedders> . doesn't match new lines, does it?
  363. # [22:23] <Philip`> It only does if you add the /s flag
  364. # [22:23] <Philip`> (You probably want .*? rather than .* otherwise it'll break if you have more than one dd element)
  365. # [22:24] * gsnedders could just go for the http://pastie.org/345813 suggestion
  366. # [22:24] <Philip`> How boring
  367. # [22:24] <gsnedders> :)
  368. # [22:25] <Philip`> That for loop seems like a good example of premature optimisation
  369. # [22:26] * gsnedders didn't write it
  370. # [22:28] <gsnedders> "iirc, for in has problems in IE"
  371. # [22:30] * Philip` was thinking of the use of 'max', rather than of anything involving 'for in'
  372. # [22:30] <gsnedders> ah, that
  373. # [22:39] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-8375301248f45da5)
  374. # [22:40] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  375. # [22:43] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("Leaving")
  376. # [22:43] <gsnedders> Who wants to bet I write more code for my English dissertation notes than I do for my computing project over the holidays? :)
  377. # [22:45] <Philip`> And more English for your computing project than for your English dissertation notes?
  378. # [22:45] <gsnedders> Nah
  379. # [22:48] <gsnedders> Is there any sort of mapping structure in JS?
  380. # [22:48] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-271781b65d3ab3e6)
  381. # [22:49] <Philip`> gsnedders: What do you mean by 'mapping'?
  382. # [22:49] <gsnedders> Philip`: like a Python dict, a key/value mapping structure
  383. # [22:49] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  384. # [22:49] <Philip`> gsnedders: {'key':'value'}
  385. # [22:49] <gsnedders> heh
  386. # [22:49] <Philip`> and thing.key = value
  387. # [22:50] <Philip`> JS barely has any structures *except* the mapping structure :-)
  388. # [22:51] <gsnedders> Is there anyway to get an array of keys?
  389. # [22:52] <Philip`> var ks = []; for (var k in thing) ks.push(k); is the only way I know of
  390. # [22:52] <gsnedders> ah, sux :\
  391. # [22:52] <Philip`> or [k for (k in thing)] if you're using Firefox, maybe
  392. # [22:53] <gsnedders> I need more than Fx support :P
  393. # [22:53] <gsnedders> (I need it to work on school computers running IE6)
  394. # [22:54] <Philip`> Just write a function keys(obj) { ... } and then you'll never have to worry about it again
  395. # [22:54] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  396. # [22:57] <gsnedders> How do you do a string replace in Javascript (a non-regex one)?
  397. # [22:58] * gsnedders concludes you don't
  398. # [22:58] <Philip`> Wild guess: thing.replace("foo", "bar")
  399. # [22:59] <takkaria> you know, using plain text works everywhere
  400. # [22:59] <Philip`> takkaria: If you really want it to work everywhere, you'd have more luck with paper than with plain text
  401. # [23:05] <gsnedders> Philip`: I guess you'd start to hit issues with water, though.
  402. # [23:06] * gsnedders has more bug reports on SP due to XML parse errors
  403. # [23:06] <gsnedders> annevk: Can you finish XML5, please?
  404. # [23:09] * Quits: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.12)
  405. # [23:09] <Philip`> gsnedders: That's not much of a problem - you can get waterproof paper, and then you can write with it underwater by cutting it into stencilled letter shapes
  406. # [23:12] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@adsl-66-140-84-100.dsl.kscymo.swbell.net)
  407. # [23:13] * gsnedders wonders WTF is going on
  408. # [23:14] <gsnedders> http://pastebin.com/m7a92716b — how come the two alerts aren't the same?
  409. # [23:15] <gsnedders> Like, "Themes: Protagonist's Introspection" v. "undefined"
  410. # [23:17] <Philip`> gsnedders: Because in the second one, element === 0
  411. # [23:17] <gsnedders> why!?
  412. # [23:17] <Philip`> gsnedders: Because 'for in' iterates over keys, not values
  413. # [23:17] <gsnedders> oh.
  414. # [23:17] <gsnedders> duh.
  415. # [23:17] <Philip`> and the key is 0
  416. # [23:17] <Philip`> (and the value is what you want)
  417. # [23:17] <gsnedders> Yeh.
  418. # [23:17] <jruderman> for each ... in ;)
  419. # [23:17] <Philip`> You could use 'for each' if you only want to work in Firefox :-)
  420. # [23:18] <gsnedders> And if I want it to work in anything else for(i=0…)
  421. # [23:18] <gsnedders> ?
  422. # [23:18] <Philip`> That's probably the easiest way
  423. # [23:20] <gsnedders> meh
  424. # [23:21] <gsnedders> lovely Javascript…
  425. # [23:21] <Philip`> It's your fault for using crippled browsers that don't support modern JS features :-p
  426. # [23:21] <gsnedders> :P
  427. # [23:36] * Joins: grimboy (n=grimboy@78-105-162-250.zone3.bethere.co.uk)
  428. # [23:40] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-2e2b7d22b3067865)
  429. # Session Close: Wed Dec 24 00:00:00 2008

The end :)