/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-12-27 / end

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  4. # [00:14] <erlehmann> anyone here at 25c3 ?
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  9. # [00:57] <Lachy> Happy Birthday Hixie
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  69. # [09:53] <annevk> Happy b-day Hixie, if it indeed is today :)
  70. # [09:53] <Hixie> thanks anne and everyone
  71. # [09:59] <olliej> ooh, happy being old day Hixie !!
  72. # [09:59] <olliej> :D
  73. # [10:01] <nessy> happy birthday, Hixie!
  74. # [10:03] <Hixie> thanks :-)
  75. # [10:18] <annevk> "Unbiased journalism on HTML5 & WHAT WG since September 2008" meh, lastweekinhtml5 stole the standardssuck tagline
  76. # [10:19] <Hixie> shocking
  77. # [10:19] <gavin> "journalism"?
  78. # [10:19] <annevk> indeed :p
  79. # [10:21] <ap> Happy birthday Hixie!
  80. # [10:21] <ap> Do you have some time for an appcache question?
  81. # [10:21] <Hixie> thanks :-)
  82. # [10:22] <Hixie> sure
  83. # [10:22] <ap> Hixie: I'm wondering about applicationCache.update() - is it by design that it usually does nothing, because the manifest is in browser's http cache?
  84. # [10:23] <ap> Hixie: the spec doesn't seem to say that it should be reloaded from server, and neither Gecko nor WebKit do that
  85. # [10:25] <ap> Hixie: I'd also appreciate some info about the intended behavior for reloading a page whose main resource is in an application cache - it seems that once a manifest attribute is added to an HTML, there is no way to undo that, other than resetting appcache via browser preferences
  86. # [10:26] <Hixie> the HTTP caching semantics should be honoured, yes, but i expect most people will set no-cache headers on manifests
  87. # [10:27] <Hixie> to un-cache a cached page, just make sure the manifest returns 410
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  89. # [10:27] <Hixie> (or 404)
  90. # [10:28] <Hixie> see step 5 of The Algorithm
  91. # [10:29] <ap> Hixie: a-ha! thanks, that helps
  92. # [10:30] <ap> Hixie: I think this is also an answer to people saying that they need manifests served with a wrong Content-Type to be honored - they need to send no-cache for reasonable behavior, and if they can do that, they can also send a correct Content-Type
  93. # [10:33] <Hixie> we don't need an answer to those requests other than "http requires us to do that" :-)
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  95. # [10:33] <Hixie> maybe we shouldn't honour the cache though
  96. # [10:36] <ap> Hixie: when updating a cache, we probably need to reload all resources, not just the manifest
  97. # [10:37] <Hixie> defeating the http caching semantics for all resources is going to such massively given how often teh manifest is checked
  98. # [10:37] <Hixie> suck
  99. # [10:37] <ap> Hixie: well, other resources only need to be reloaded if the manifest changed
  100. # [10:38] <ap> Hixie: they can always stick an app version in a comment to force a full update
  101. # [10:38] <Hixie> oh true, the manifest being the same is just treated as there being nothing to do
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  114. # [11:24] <Hixie> do people think i should make "heading content" a kind of "flow content" by definition, or should i make all the elements that are "phrasing content" also be "flow content" explicitly?
  115. # [11:25] <Hixie> i.e. is it better to be explicit about what is flow content, or is it better to have a diagram somewhere that shows how the various kinds of content are subsets of each other?
  116. # [11:35] <Lachy> Hixie, do both
  117. # [11:37] <Hixie> but that's more work!
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  122. # [11:52] <Hixie> hm, should <body> be sectioning content or sectioning root?
  123. # [11:53] <Hixie> (or does it not make a difference)
  124. # [11:54] <Lachy> Hixie, make it sectioning root
  125. # [11:54] <Hixie> ok
  126. # [11:55] <Hixie> sweet, that makes sectioning content elements all flow content now too
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  141. # [12:35] <Hixie> lachy: how's http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#kinds-of-content
  142. # [12:40] * ap|away is now known as ap
  143. # [12:41] <gsnedders> Hixie: Happy Hixieday! :)
  144. # [12:41] <Hixie> thanks :-)
  145. # [12:42] <gsnedders> Hixie: make heading content flow content, and IMO it's better to have a diagram somewhere, and body should be a sectioning root
  146. # [12:42] <Hixie> gsnedders: how's http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#kinds-of-content ?
  147. # [12:43] <gsnedders> Hixie: kinda odd with the overlapping areas, but I can't see anyway to get rid of them
  148. # [12:43] <gsnedders> Hixie: And SVG > PNG :P
  149. # [12:44] <gsnedders> (overlapping as in things like the phrasing content)
  150. # [12:44] <gsnedders> Can anyone pass me any water?
  151. # [12:44] <Hixie> feel free to provide a better diagram :-)
  152. # [12:45] <Hixie> I don't have a nice SVG editor
  153. # [12:45] <gsnedders> Write it by hand :P
  154. # [12:45] * gsnedders has never found any SVG editor that actually produces sane markup
  155. # [12:46] * maik|breakfast is now known as maikmerten
  156. # [12:56] * gsnedders realizes he still hasn't started on his computing project implementation, though he has started on English notes,.
  157. # [12:56] <gsnedders> Meh.
  158. # [12:56] <gsnedders> Fun "holidays".
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  163. # [13:43] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why do you want an SVG editor that produces sane markup?
  164. # [13:43] <Philip`> Just treat the output as an opaque blob of data, the same as if it were PNG
  165. # [13:47] * gsnedders shrugs
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  180. # [16:49] <annevk> so to learn SVG I thought of doing that HTML5 content model diagram in SVG, how do you make an oval shape?
  181. # [16:50] <annevk> nm
  182. # [16:50] <annevk> I should RTFM
  183. # [16:50] <annevk> well, RTFS
  184. # [17:00] <annevk> sort of annoying to do this by hand as everything has to be positioned absolutely more or less
  185. # [17:01] <annevk> I suppose I could create <g> containers for some bits, but that only helps slightly
  186. # [17:07] <annevk> so much for <g> elements, they don't have x/y or cx/cy attributes
  187. # [17:07] <annevk> at least, I think they don't
  188. # [17:07] <annevk> I guess you can fake it using a translate...
  189. # [17:08] <annevk> (transform="translate(x,y)" works)
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  194. # [17:23] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/content-venn-svg-sketch
  195. # [17:23] <annevk> (I stopped because it was boring)
  196. # [17:25] <annevk> (bit annoying that there's still no user unit in CSS so you have to fake it using px...)
  197. # [17:27] <karlcow> annevk: I have an idea for the graph :) just have to find the energy, will to do it :) not sure for now
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  201. # [17:33] <annevk> k, cool
  202. # [17:33] <annevk> I wasn't actually thinking of improving it, just making an SVG version
  203. # [17:34] <Philip`> Just use Inkscape :-)
  204. # [17:35] <annevk> <svg:image xlink:href="..."/>
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  221. # [20:22] <annevk> wow, http://www.w3.org/mid/495670E0.5000700@googlemail.com is great
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  232. # [22:26] <jgraham> Hixie: Happy Birthday
  233. # [22:26] * jgraham has been away from the computer all day
  234. # [22:44] <jgraham> Wow, lastweekinhtml5 has become dull recently
  235. # [22:45] * Philip` wonders why more people have commented today on Hixie's birthday than commented a couple of days ago on Santa Claus's birthday
  236. # [22:45] <jgraham> Philip`: I thought it was regulation if you wanted to be in the cult of Hixie
  237. # [22:46] <jgraham> Did I miss a memo?
  238. # [22:47] <jgraham> Also today, after I finally bought some presents to wrap, I discovered that the amin problem with wrapping is not that using the paper efficiently is NP hard because that can be circumvented by using paper inefficiently
  239. # [22:47] <jgraham> The main problem is that it requires hand eye cooridination to do all the sellotaping
  240. # [22:48] * Philip` discovers that http://www.google.com/search?q=christmas puts some little candy-cane icons next to the side adverts
  241. # [22:49] * jgraham wonders why Philip` was googling for Christmas
  242. # [22:50] <Philip`> I wasn't, I was Googling for Santa and found that it has icons for several Christmas-related search queries
  243. # [22:51] * jgraham wonders why Philip` was googling for Santa
  244. # [22:52] <Philip`> To see the Wikipedia page about him, in a (failed) attempt to verify the date of his birthday
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  265. # [23:11] * jgraham would like to complain that Google translate doesn't remember the langauge you last chose but instead seems to always default to Spanish-English which shows a remarkable ameri-centricism in a tool designed to reduce cultural barriers
  266. # [23:14] <Lachy> jgraham, bookmark this URL to make it remember which languages you want. http://www.google.com/translate_t?sl=no&tl=en
  267. # [23:14] <Lachy> just change the "no" to whatever langauge you need
  268. # [23:16] <jgraham> Lachy: Yeah I gues that would work. It really shouldn't be necessary though...
  269. # [23:18] <jgraham> Thanks
  270. # [23:20] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  271. # [23:23] * Philip` tries to install the seemingly straightforward Net::Amazon::S3 module, and is surprised to discover that it requires a gazillion dependencies
  272. # [23:23] <Philip`> including the oddly named Moose::Cookbook
  273. # [23:24] <Lachy> jgraham, I agree it's annoying. But that's the only solution I've found that was simple to set up
  274. # [23:24] <Lachy> you could also try creating a user JS that automatically changes it for you whenever you visit the page
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  277. # [23:28] <jgraham> Lachy: I was trying the "complain in a random unrelated IRC channel in the hope that someone would say 'you idiot you can fix it like this or communicate the problem to Google like that' solution
  278. # [23:28] <jgraham> s/t'/t'"
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  285. # [23:55] <heycam`> annevk, yeah relative layout in svg would be nice to have. hopefully i get some time this year to put together a spec (and implementation) for it.
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  289. # Session Close: Sun Dec 28 00:00:00 2008

The end :)