/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-12-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Dec 28 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:31] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  4. # [00:32] <Hixie> so, what's everyone up to on this great day
  5. # [00:33] * Hixie is listening to the Pinafore soundtrack while replying to crazy whatwg e-mails
  6. # [00:33] * Philip` is playing TrackMania
  7. # [00:36] * heycam` is reading the java vm spec
  8. # [00:37] * heycam` is now known as heycam
  9. # [00:37] * nessy is preparing to head off for a wedding
  10. # [00:37] * nessy would much prefer some video hacking :)
  11. # [00:40] * Philip` is also trying to write some scripts to control an EC2 server, and wondering if it's considered murder or suicide when you program something to terminate itself
  12. # [00:40] * annevk is off to party
  13. # [00:41] * jgraham spent all day buying Christmas presents, having not bothered before Christmas
  14. # [00:42] <jgraham> Which sounds much more boring than what anyone else has been doing
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  16. # [01:02] * Hixie pages through stream-of-consciousness e-mails from Calogero
  17. # [01:11] <Hixie> the holidays are boring. no controversy on the tag or ac lists.
  18. # [01:11] <Hixie> still no replies to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Dec/0083.html
  19. # [01:11] <Hixie> and i doubt it's because everyone was suddenly convinced
  20. # [01:13] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@48.80-202-82.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  21. # [01:15] <webben> Hixie: That's a lovely simple case-study of why defining error-handling is a Good Thing.
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  24. # [01:31] <Hixie> webben: yeah
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  26. # [01:39] <Hixie> webben: i just love that it was brought up as an attempt of reductio ad absurdum, and it was really a perfect simple example
  27. # [01:40] <webben> very neat, yes :)
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  32. # [02:10] * Hixie learns about "SACD" disks
  33. # [02:10] <Hixie> apparently this christmas present will not play on normal audio players
  34. # [02:10] <Hixie> though the ps3 supports it!
  35. # [02:11] <Hixie> not that that helps me at all
  36. # [02:11] <Hixie> man, these have even more obnoxious drm than bluray
  37. # [02:15] <webben> Hixie: "not that that helps me at all" ... unless you were looking for an excuse to buy a PS3, presumably ;)
  38. # [02:17] * myakura thinks that current PS3 has removed its playback
  39. # [02:19] <Hixie> they removed digital playback iirc
  40. # [02:19] <Hixie> but i think analog still works
  41. # [02:19] <Hixie> (by ps3 is hooked up to a 20 year old tv, so...)
  42. # [02:22] <Lachy> I'd never heard of an SACD before either
  43. # [02:23] <Lachy> wikipedia says there's currently no way to crack the DRM. That sucks.
  44. # [02:23] <myakura> yeah, that really sucks
  45. # [02:23] <Lachy> though if SACD ever becomes popular enough, someone will be motivated enough to crack it.
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  47. # [02:25] <Lachy> I just buy all my music in DRM free format online anyway. I don't think I'd ever be interested in returning to physical media, especially with DRM, again
  48. # [02:26] <Lachy> I discovered that 7digital.com doesn't seem to enforce regional restrictions, like stores like Amazon MP3 do
  49. # [02:26] <myakura> (though the sound quality is way better than ordinary CDs, i kinda like the format
  50. # [02:26] <Lachy> I don't have a sound system that can take advantage of the better quality sound anyway
  51. # [02:27] * myakura neither :(
  52. # [02:27] <Lachy> but even if I did, I'd still rather rip the music to a hard drive than have to use a disc
  53. # [02:27] <Lachy> that's what I do with my DVDs. Rip them with MacTheRipper and create an ISO with mkisofs
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  55. # [02:32] <Lachy> btw, my christmas present is probably going to end up costing me up to $800 in a repair bill, thanks to faulty manufacturing of DVD packaging
  56. # [02:33] <Lachy> (that's $800 AUD. I was told up to 4000 NOK)
  57. # [02:35] <webben> faulty packaging did that?
  58. # [02:35] <Hixie> i have very nice speakers (audioengine5) but they're still just 2.0 stereo
  59. # [02:36] <Hixie> so this sacd is lost on me anyway
  60. # [02:36] <Hixie> oh well
  61. # [02:36] <Hixie> it's my fault, i should have noticed it wasn'ta cd when i put it on my amazon wishlist :-)
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  64. # [02:48] <Lachy> webben, glue from the DVD packaging had become stuck to the underside of the disc, and without noticing, I put that into my DVD drive. The drive is now screwed
  65. # [02:48] <webben> eww... that's one to watch out for :(
  66. # [02:48] <Lachy> It was The Simpsons Season 11, limited editon collectors box set
  67. # [02:49] <Lachy> it worst package design I've ever seen. The discs are so hard to get out
  68. # [02:50] <Lachy> I contacted Fox today, asking them to replace the disc and compensate me for my repair expenses. Though it's the weekend and I probably won't hear back till next week
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  73. # [03:58] * annevk is back; time to go to bed :)
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  77. # [04:45] <Hixie> so www.whatwg.org traffic spiked the week of feb 17th 2008, and the week of april 30th
  78. # [04:45] <Hixie> i wonder why
  79. # [04:47] <dave_levin> Happy birthday Hixie.
  80. # [04:48] <Hixie> thanks :-)
  81. # [04:50] <Hixie> i wonder which bot is using "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 5.0)"
  82. # [04:50] <Hixie> whatwg's highest usage is from that bot this month
  83. # [05:04] <Hixie> can someone tell me what this means?:
  84. # [05:04] <Hixie> > Just one thing: a note says a synthetic click doesn't perform the same
  85. # [05:04] <Hixie> > actions as required by the click() method, but those seems suitable as
  86. # [05:04] <Hixie> > pre-click activation steps (or post-click, if needed), eventually
  87. # [05:04] <Hixie> > telling the UA to take care of the synthetic click source (user's device
  88. # [05:04] <Hixie> > or document scripts) if such causes any difference, aren't they?
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  105. # [08:40] <zcorpan_> hmm, either the forums weren't spammed during christmas, or it was cleaned up already
  106. # [08:41] <zcorpan_> 190 new emails, less than i expected
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  109. # [08:50] <Hixie> yeah so little e-mail
  110. # [08:51] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@ool-182f8118.dyn.optonline.net)
  111. # [08:53] * zcorpan_ wonders when https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8131 will be fixed
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  119. # [09:58] <zcorpan_> Hixie: is this conforming? <svg><foreignobject> foo <br> baz </foreignobject></svg>
  120. # [09:59] <Hixie> i believe so
  121. # [09:59] <Hixie> though i don't know which spec is responsible for knowing how to render the "foo"
  122. # [09:59] <Hixie> ask the svg wg i guess
  123. # [10:00] <zcorpan_> the spec seems to only talk about which *elements* are allowed
  124. # [10:01] <Hixie> yes
  125. # [10:01] <annevk> Hixie, "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 5.0)" was causing the huge traffic spike on html5.org
  126. # [10:01] <Hixie> annevk: did you get an IP address?
  127. # [10:01] <zcorpan_> what does interleaved mean? is it not allowed to nest mathml in html in svg?
  128. # [10:01] <annevk> Hixie, it uses a proxy
  129. # [10:01] <annevk> Hixie, lots of them
  130. # [10:02] <Hixie> annevk: which country?
  131. # [10:02] <annevk> dunno, I'm using the stats package from dreamhost
  132. # [10:02] <annevk> it seems it is still hitting the server, but it now gets 403 back (it always requested URIs with &amp; in them rather than &)
  133. # [10:03] <Hixie> zcorpan_: <a/><b/><a/><b/> is a and b interleaved together
  134. # [10:03] <Hixie> zcorpan_: <a/><a/><b/><b/> does not have interleaving
  135. # [10:03] <Hixie> zcorpan_: make sense?
  136. # [10:05] <zcorpan_> Hixie: yeah
  137. # [10:05] <annevk> <svg><foreignObject><h1>test</h1> <math/> <p>wow</p><foreignObjecct></svg> should be fine, no?
  138. # [10:06] <Hixie> what does svg say about how you render that?
  139. # [10:06] <annevk> dunno, I believe I asked once
  140. # [10:07] <Hixie> the reason i made the spec require all the html to be in one block is that then we can define the rendering sanely without stepping outside our area of responsibility and authority
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  142. # [10:07] <annevk> I'd hope rendering of <foreignObject> does not depend on children...
  143. # [10:08] <zcorpan_> i think i tested this before and didn't find any interesting interop problems, so the svg spec should just allow it and define it
  144. # [10:09] <Hixie> well i don't really mind allowing multiple html blocks if we can define what it means somewhere
  145. # [10:09] <Hixie> svg 1.2 tiny got through CR, so presumably one just has to look at the tests they wrote to test <foreignObject>, and then see what part of the spec those tests are testing
  146. # [10:10] <zcorpan_> the svg 1.2 tiny testsuite is sad
  147. # [10:10] <zcorpan_> or should i say tiny
  148. # [10:11] <Hixie> i couldn't find it -- all i could find were about 600 tests somewhere
  149. # [10:11] <Hixie> i dunno where the actual test suite they used to exit CR is
  150. # [10:11] <zcorpan_> i think that's it
  151. # [10:11] <Hixie> what's it?
  152. # [10:11] <zcorpan_> the 600 tests are the testsuite
  153. # [10:11] <Hixie> can't be, that would mean they violated w3c process again
  154. # [10:12] <zcorpan_> i asked ed and he said there were about 600 tests
  155. # [10:12] <zcorpan_> iirc
  156. # [10:12] <Hixie> how odd
  157. # [10:12] <Hixie> i guess i'll ask www-svg
  158. # [10:17] <annevk> roc had some idea on how <foreignObject> should work at some point, though I believe it still had an issue with what exactly the root element would be
  159. # [10:19] * jgraham wonders if zcorpan_ knows that he got invited to his house for New Year
  160. # [10:20] <zcorpan_> jgraham: yep :)
  161. # [10:20] * annevk wonders if that sentence is grammatically dubious
  162. # [10:20] <zcorpan_> i.e. jgraham got invited to my house
  163. # [10:21] <zcorpan_> anyone else wanna join?
  164. # [10:23] * zcorpan_ takes that as a no
  165. # [10:24] <takkaria> christ, Hixie, you've been working hard the last few days
  166. # [10:25] * annevk will come to Linkoping somewhere in 2009 for slightly longer than a day :)
  167. # [10:26] <zcorpan_> annevk: we should have a beer at de klomp then
  168. # [10:26] <annevk> hehe
  169. # [10:27] * zcorpan_ has been there once already
  170. # [10:27] <annevk> full of Dutchies?
  171. # [10:27] <zcorpan_> some of them were dutch
  172. # [10:27] <annevk> seems Hixie reached a new low: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html
  173. # [10:30] <zcorpan_> though i had to ask for frietssaus so i'm a bit disappointed
  174. # [10:30] <annevk> maybe 'cause it's called mayo?
  175. # [10:31] <zcorpan_> whatever it's called i didn't get it without asking for it
  176. # [10:32] <annevk> :/
  177. # [10:32] <annevk> do they have poffertjes? :)
  178. # [10:32] <zcorpan_> and they didn't wet the glass before drawing the beer
  179. # [10:33] <zcorpan_> no don't think so
  180. # [10:33] <zcorpan_> i had poffertjes when we were in amsterdam
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  182. # [10:44] <Hixie> i'm trying to reach 1500 by the 31st
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  184. # [10:46] <takkaria> Hixie: going on vacation any time soon?
  185. # [10:46] <Hixie> no
  186. # [10:56] <roc> annevk: what's the issue with foreignobject rendering?
  187. # [10:56] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  188. # [10:58] <annevk> roc, if <foreignObject> gives you a viewport, like <iframe> or something, what is the root element in http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#containing-block-details ?
  189. # [10:58] <annevk> in a case like <foreignObject> <html/> <html/> </foreignObject>
  190. # [10:58] <roc> ah
  191. # [10:58] <roc> this is certainly underspecified
  192. # [10:58] <roc> in Mozilla, <foreignObject> does not create a viewport
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  194. # [11:00] <roc> it wraps the children in an anonymous block which is a block formatting context and an abs-pos container
  195. # [11:00] <roc> it should also be a fixed-pos container; we don't do that yet
  196. # [11:00] <annevk> ok, so a new kind of container basically?
  197. # [11:01] <roc> only the fixed-pos container part is really new
  198. # [11:01] <roc> but CSS transforms also need to create fixed-pos containers that are not the viewport
  199. # [11:02] <roc> and it's not that hard to do
  200. # [11:03] <roc> we already implemented fixed-pos container-ness for CSS transforms and extending that to foreignobject should be simple
  201. # [11:04] <annevk> kk
  202. # [11:06] <roc> I realize these decisions are a bit arbitrary but obviously if any child of the foreignobject can have a containing block that's outside the foreignobject, you're doomed
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  206. # [11:59] <Hixie> some spec should actually define that somewhere
  207. # [11:59] <Hixie> but html5 isn't the right spec, so...
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  213. # [12:13] <Hixie> gah, i wish there an xml parser spec
  214. # [12:13] <Hixie> where do specs define that a 'load' event is fired after parsing an xml doc?
  215. # [12:13] <Hixie> sigh
  216. # [12:13] <Hixie> maybe i should write a section for html5 that defines an xml parser
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  221. # [12:22] <Hixie> i wonder what state dom3 events is in
  222. # [12:22] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  223. # [12:22] <Hixie> anyone following that at all?
  224. # [12:23] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@c-98-203-230-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  225. # [12:24] <zcorpan_> not me, though i probably should
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  227. # [12:25] <zcorpan_> Hixie: <pre><code> breaks the leading line break authoring convenience feature
  228. # [12:25] <Hixie> as far as i can tell it _fixes_ the feature :-P
  229. # [12:26] <zcorpan_> and makes some people write <code><pre> instead which made you have to expand the aaa list
  230. # [12:26] <Hixie> *shrug*
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  234. # [13:04] <Lachy> wtf? I just got a BSOD in Windows XP running inside a Virtual Machine
  235. # [13:06] <Hixie> what was the error?
  236. # [13:08] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lab41.l.pppool.de)
  237. # [13:12] <Lachy> it was one that required it instantly restart, so I didn't get a chance to read the BSOD, as it only flashed for a second
  238. # [13:16] <Philip`> You can configure whether Windows restarts automatically on BSOD
  239. # [13:16] <Philip`> in, uh, Control Panel -> System -> Error Recovery or something like that?
  240. # [13:17] <Philip`> otherwise it'll always just restart straight away
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  242. # [13:32] <Lachy> Philip`, I've had BSODs in the past that didn't automatically restart, and I've never touched that setting before
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  246. # [14:17] <zcorpan_> is it just me or is lists.w3.org down?
  247. # [14:17] <Hixie> lists.w3.org is down more often than whatwg.org
  248. # [14:21] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  249. # [14:21] <karlcow> and me who thought that someone grew older a few days ago
  250. # [14:21] <Hixie> ?
  251. # [14:22] <Hixie> i believe that statement to be accurate
  252. # [14:22] <Hixie> whatwg.org is down all the time
  253. # [14:22] <Hixie> and lists.w3.org is down more often
  254. # [14:22] <Hixie> it's actually rather annoying (indeed, both are)
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  259. # [15:20] <gsnedders> BenMillard has managed to get Hixie to call me "G" now, too :P
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  261. # [15:24] <zcorpan_> Hixie, annevk: http://simon.html5.org/dump/content-venn.svg
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  290. # [17:06] <karlcow> zcorpan_: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20081228#l-92
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  296. # [18:12] <gsnedders> Hixie: yt?
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  311. # [18:31] * gsnedders notes (gladly) he's got no bug reports on Anolis since 1.0 shipped
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  344. # [22:08] * jwalden applauds http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/semantics.html#sectioning-root for (already) saying that headings inside blockquotes don't contribute to outlines
  345. # [22:08] <jwalden> was afraid I was going to have to propose that to the list :-)
  346. # [22:08] <gsnedders> jwalden: But that means I don't need to read the algorithm and work that out! That's boring!
  347. # [22:10] * gsnedders should create a service which just displays the outline for a document
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  352. # [22:25] <Philip`> gsnedders: Does it really need to be a service, and not just a bookmarklet or whatever those things are called?
  353. # [22:37] * Joins: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  354. # [22:46] <gsnedders> There are duplicate tests in the validator tests in html5ib
  355. # [22:48] <Philip`> That's to provide extra assurance that the validator implementations are deterministic, and that they don't fail if you feed them the same input twice
  356. # [22:52] <gsnedders> Actually, I think I'm being stupid
  357. # [22:52] <gsnedders> They are however outdated
  358. # [22:55] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@48.80-202-82.nextgentel.com)
  359. # [22:57] <virtuelv> gsnedders: just FYI, RDF is still relevant
  360. # [22:57] <virtuelv> thinking otherwise is misguided, at best
  361. # [22:58] <virtuelv> fwiw, on the relevance of w3c: web technologies are being used outside of average web 2.0-startups
  362. # [22:58] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  363. # [22:58] <virtuelv> (In reply to various tidbits on twitter)
  364. # [22:59] * Philip` has only interacted with RDF data once, and that was dmoz.org's URL listing, and he just used regexps for that since he had no idea what else to do with it :-(
  365. # [23:01] <virtuelv> I'd just like to point out that every firefox extension uses rdf
  366. # [23:02] * gsnedders notes that doesn't help bots crawling the web understand it
  367. # [23:03] <gsnedders> virtuelv: I'd say it'd be a push to say that RDF was irrelevant. but is it relevant for what it set out to do (i.e., making the web more semantic)? I see almost no websites using RDF, so it doesn't seem to have done what it was meant to
  368. # [23:04] <virtuelv> gsnedders: the web also happens to be more than what google is willing to index
  369. # [23:04] <virtuelv> "almost no websites"?
  370. # [23:04] <virtuelv> you know that RSS 1.0 is RDF?
  371. # [23:04] <virtuelv> and FOAF?
  372. # [23:04] <gsnedders> Yes, I am aware.
  373. # [23:04] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@cm-84.215.140.104.getinternet.no)
  374. # [23:04] <gsnedders> I have written a not unheard of feed parser
  375. # [23:04] <virtuelv> (Note, I'm not a huge RDF fan myself, but calling it "irrelevant" is hyperbole)
  376. # [23:05] <gsnedders> From a parsing point of view, RSS 1.0 isn't whatsoever
  377. # [23:05] <gsnedders> I don't think I touch anything in the RDF namespace at all
  378. # [23:06] <gsnedders> Well, apart from checking the root element
  379. # [23:07] <virtuelv> that you don't have to use an RDF parser to parse it, doesn
  380. # [23:07] <virtuelv> 't make it any less RDF
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  382. # [23:07] <gsnedders> That you don't need to touch RDF at all does in my mind make the fact it is technically RDF irrelevant
  383. # [23:08] * Philip` wonders what the motivation is for https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=420506
  384. # [23:08] <virtuelv> fwiw, behind the scenes, http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/ is all semweb
  385. # [23:10] <virtuelv> (There was a pretty awesome presentation about that site at XTech in Dublin this year)
  386. # [23:10] * gsnedders would've gone to XTech is study leave had started when it normally did and not two weeks later
  387. # [23:10] <svl> Philip`: iirc mostly that RDF code in Mozilla is effectively unmaintained and hard to work with.
  388. # [23:10] <gsnedders> *if
  389. # [23:13] <Philip`> I'm sure I saw something some time ago discussing trying to remove Mozilla's dependency on RDF for extensions, but I can't remember where I found that
  390. # [23:14] <roc> RDF might be an OK interchange format for some uses, but it's totally inappropriate as an internal data structure for an aplication
  391. # [23:19] <virtuelv> roc: and while I agree with that, I still hope that people can stop labelling it as "irrelevant" and other hyperbole
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  394. # [23:36] <gsnedders> Anyone got any music suggestions for me?
  395. # [23:40] <annevk> oi va voi
  396. # [23:40] <annevk> spinvis
  397. # [23:41] <virtuelv> annevk: in Norway already again?
  398. # [23:42] <annevk> yeah, to celebrate new year and do some work :)
  399. # [23:43] <svl> gsnedders: http://viennateng.com/listen/ (in general: what kind of music do you like?)
  400. # [23:43] <gsnedders> svl: That's a hard question to answer. I like random things of pretty much any genre.
  401. # [23:44] <annevk> (my second suggestion is Dutch music btw)
  402. # [23:44] <virtuelv> gsnedders: Jan Garbarek
  403. # [23:44] <gsnedders> svl: http://www.last.fm/user/gsnedders if you want to get a vague idea
  404. # [23:44] <gsnedders> (the top two bands are such primarily because they a) have a lot of albums, b) I own all their albums)
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  407. # [23:47] <svl> gsnedders: Almost but not entirely completely unlike my own taste. The one strain of recommendations I have branch off from Death Cab for Cutie: Try Mesh - http://www.mesh.co.uk/ - and No-man - http://www.myspace.com/nomanuk
  408. # [23:47] <gsnedders> annevk: The second one sounds nice, I just fail to understand everything :)
  409. # [23:55] * gsnedders listens to preview of Mesh on last.fm and concludes it's way too like EDM
  410. # [23:55] <gsnedders> (EDM that I can at all stand is rare)
  411. # [23:59] <gsnedders> OK, nice load of suggestions
  412. # Session Close: Mon Dec 29 00:00:00 2008

The end :)