/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-12-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 29 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: Random bands I have recently liked: Sigur Ros, The Decemberists, Malcolm Middleton
  4. # [00:02] <jgraham> s/bands/artists/
  5. # [00:03] <jgraham> Bright Eyes, Bat for Lashes
  6. # [00:03] <jgraham> Joy Division, Arcade Fire
  7. # [00:04] * gsnedders notes jgraham's list is longer than pretty much everyone else's put together ;)
  8. # [00:04] * Joins: webben (n=webben@91.85.204.219)
  9. # [00:04] <gsnedders> * :)
  10. # [00:04] <jgraham> I can go on :)
  11. # [00:05] <jgraham> (but I don't know if I'm being useful or just naming bands that I like)
  12. # [00:05] * gsnedders has heard of most of them
  13. # [00:05] <jgraham> Belle & Sebastian, Nick Cave
  14. # [00:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: Oh, I like so much random stuff that naming bands you like is about as useful as you can be :)
  15. # [00:07] <jgraham> http://www.sigur-ros.co.uk/media/ has a bunch of free sigur ros to download
  16. # [00:07] <gsnedders> That's a good price.
  17. # [00:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: Sorry, but Malcolm Middleton has a Scottish accent from the wrong part of Scotland.
  18. # [00:09] * jgraham wonders who gsnedders hasn't heard of
  19. # [00:10] <jgraham> gsnedders: Falkirk?
  20. # [00:10] <jgraham> Why is that the wrong part of scotland?
  21. # [00:10] <gsnedders> jgraham: Wrong accent.
  22. # [00:10] <gsnedders> :)
  23. # [00:12] <jgraham> Oh well, I thought you'd like the humor and misery
  24. # [00:14] <gsnedders> :P
  25. # [00:14] <gsnedders> Nah, most of his stuffis decent
  26. # [00:16] <gsnedders> jgraham: I've heard of obscure stuff, just not what my friends have heard of ;)
  27. # [00:16] <gsnedders> * :)
  28. # [00:16] * gsnedders can't type toniht
  29. # [00:16] <gsnedders> *tonight
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  32. # [00:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: Eh? Since I don't know what your friends have heard of that doesn't help much
  33. # [00:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: Oh, like what's actually popular
  34. # [00:19] <jgraham> Also: Flight of the Conchords (but it's good if you watch the TV show too)
  35. # [00:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: I have no idea what is acually popular. Nothing I like I guess
  36. # [00:20] <jgraham> Jeff Buckley. Is that too obvious?
  37. # [00:20] <gsnedders> jgraham: Nor do I. That's why I don't know what they like.
  38. # [00:20] <jgraham> amiina http://www.myspace.com/amiina
  39. # [00:21] * jgraham doesn't thinnk he has ever linked to myspace before
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  42. # [00:22] * gsnedders wonders who in #whatwg has MySpace
  43. # [00:22] * gsnedders doesn't
  44. # [00:24] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  45. # [00:25] * gsnedders has been meaning to get some The View since before anyone had heard of them
  46. # [00:25] <jgraham> In other random culture recommendations, anyone who is in London soonish should try to visit the Wildlife Photographer of the Year exhibition at the Natural History Museum
  47. # [00:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: "soonish"?
  48. # [00:26] <jgraham> Before it closes. I don't quie recall when that is. Maybe april?
  49. # [00:26] <gsnedders> 26 Apr 2009
  50. # [00:26] <gsnedders> There's also an exhibition on Darwin till the 19th
  51. # [00:27] * gsnedders wonders whether to go to London in Feb
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  53. # [00:33] <gsnedders> me is very submissive, apparently
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  56. # [00:37] * gsnedders wonders how you pronounce Amiina
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  60. # [00:43] * jgraham generally has no idea how to pronounce icelandic words
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  62. # [00:49] <gsnedders> Anyone got any clue about why <http://www.jrcnetwork.com/designprohibited/> doesn't have its background image (which is a JPEG) match up (in a colour sense) with the background colour in Safari?
  63. # [00:49] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  64. # [00:49] <Hixie> the JPEG probably has a color space set
  65. # [00:49] <Hixie> to something other than sRGB
  66. # [00:50] <jgraham> I agrre with Hixie although it sems to WFM
  67. # [00:50] <gsnedders> Ah, OK
  68. # [00:50] * gsnedders forgot that JPEG could have gamma explicitly
  69. # [00:51] <Hixie> oh yeah, could be the gamma too
  70. # [00:53] <jgraham> The colour space is set to sRGB
  71. # [00:53] <gsnedders> If I'm not reading the metadata wrong, it is sRGB, and there is no gamma set
  72. # [00:56] <jwalden> hm, html5 doesn't allow a profile attribute on <head>? seems like that "breaks" the part of the web that's wordpress-based, mostly
  73. # [00:56] <gsnedders> jwalden: One update to WP can fix that
  74. # [00:56] <Hixie> jwalden: how does it break it?
  75. # [00:56] <gsnedders> jwalden: And WP is XHTML anyway, and good luck convincing them to output HTML.
  76. # [00:56] <gsnedders> Sorry, "XHTML".
  77. # [00:56] <jwalden> Hixie: "breaks" in the sense of doesn't validate, hence the quotes
  78. # [00:56] <Hixie> oh well it doesn't validate as html5 anyway
  79. # [00:57] <Hixie> it's html4 :-)
  80. # [00:57] <Hixie> or xhtml1
  81. # [00:57] <gsnedders> No, it's XHTML 1.0
  82. # [00:57] <Hixie> either way
  83. # [00:57] <Hixie> it's not going to validate
  84. # [00:57] <jwalden> sure, I'm ignoring the doctype error I get now
  85. # [00:57] <gsnedders> It's impossible to get WP to output HTML 4.01
  86. # [02:57] * Disconnected
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  88. # [02:57] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  89. # [02:57] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  90. # [02:57] * Set by Hixie on Thu Oct 23 14:38:15
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  96. # [03:50] <heycam> Hixie, typo in most recent commit (you have "it's" instead of "its")
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  98. # [03:52] <Hixie> where is it?
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  100. # [03:52] <Hixie> i don't recall what the last commit was :-)
  101. # [03:53] <heycam> in the Obsolete features / Conformance checkers section
  102. # [03:56] <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2008Dec/0121.html
  103. # [03:57] * heycam afk for a bit
  104. # [04:04] <Philip`> "The presence of a profile attribute on the head element, if it's value is ..."
  105. # [04:09] <Hixie> i fixed it as soon as heycam said "in the Obsolete features / Conformance checkers section" :-)
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  129. # [10:31] <Hixie> what does one call a statement that doesn't modify something? as opposed to a statement that _does_ modify something
  130. # [10:33] <heycam> idempotent?
  131. # [10:34] <heycam> referentially transparent?
  132. # [10:34] <Hixie> idempotent statements can still change things, they are just guaranteed to not cause further changes if executed again
  133. # [10:34] <Hixie> referentially transparent might be it...
  134. # [10:34] <heycam> ah yes
  135. # [10:35] <heycam> side-effectless
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  137. # [10:35] * heycam cooks
  138. # [10:36] <Hixie> referentially transparent seems right
  139. # [10:36] <Hixie> although...
  140. # [10:37] <Hixie> UPDATE TABLE x SET a=0 WHERE 0==1; is referentially transparent
  141. # [10:37] <Hixie> and i don't want to include that
  142. # [10:41] <roc> "pure" is sometimes used
  143. # [10:42] <roc> "pure function" maybe
  144. # [10:42] <roc> a statement that changes no state and does not return a value (i.e., is not an expression) could also be referred to as a "no-op"
  145. # [10:46] <Hixie> i used "referentially transparent" but refer only to "the statement's main verb" (this is about sql)
  146. # [10:46] <Hixie> and then i give an example to show what i mean by "main verb"
  147. # [10:47] <roc> "has no side-effects" is probably more meaningful to more people
  148. # [10:48] <Hixie> yeah i considered that but i was worried people might think that "DROP TABLE foo" had no side-effects, only one primary effect.
  149. # [10:49] <roc> seems much more likely that people will have no clue what "referentially transparent" means
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  151. # [10:50] <Hixie> well that's why i include the example :-)
  152. # [10:51] <Hixie> here, what do you think of this: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#modifications-fail-if-read-only
  153. # [10:51] <Hixie> step 6.2
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  155. # [10:57] <roc> hmm
  156. # [10:57] <roc> actually "referential transparency" is not what you want here
  157. # [10:57] <roc> since, strictly speaking, functions that read mutable global state are not referentially transparent
  158. # [10:57] <Hixie> good point
  159. # [10:58] <Hixie> what's the right term?
  160. # [10:58] <Hixie> what i want is the accessor version of "immutable"
  161. # [10:58] <Hixie> i can think of half a dozen ways to describe a data structure that can't be modified, but no way to describe a function that doesn't modify a data structure
  162. # [10:58] <Hixie> go figure
  163. # [10:59] <roc> maybe "can modify the database" is as good as it gets
  164. # [11:00] * Hixie removes the parenthetical
  165. # [11:00] <Hixie> i'm sure there's a word
  166. # [11:01] <Hixie> but "can't modify" will have to do for now
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  169. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> wasn't mpt particularly interested in notifications?
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  172. # [11:40] <Hixie> MikeSmith: the gears team were the only people who said anything about implementing it as far as i know
  173. # [11:40] <Hixie> MikeSmith: and they want full-on HTML notifications
  174. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> OK
  175. # [11:41] <Hixie> MikeSmith: which i'm not willing to spec if they're the only implementation, because that's heavy duty stuff
  176. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> yeah, I can understand that
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  178. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> Hixie: If there is significant interest from them in having taking a spec for it to the Webapps WG, I would kinda hope to get word on it sooner rather than later
  179. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> Is there somebody in particular you can suggest I ping about it?
  180. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> or course it'd be great to have somebody willing to commit to being the editor for it
  181. # [11:44] <Hixie> i don't know of any interest from that team to write a spec yet
  182. # [11:44] <Hixie> but i'm trying to encourage them to work with the w3c
  183. # [11:45] <Hixie> the thing is there's no point having a spec if there's only one company interested in it
  184. # [11:45] <Hixie> because once the other vendors start getting interested, they'll want to change it
  185. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> yep
  186. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> I think Andrei's work on the Geolocation draft has proven that when there is interest among multiple vendors, work on standard can get done relatively quickly and successfully
  187. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> with multiple implementations
  188. # [11:56] * Joins: yecril71 (n=giecrilj@piekna-gts.2a.pl)
  189. # [11:57] <yecril71> Modifying the fingerprint on the advertising site would only disrupt the site.
  190. # [11:58] <yecril71> It would not cause the downloaders to download the trojan — since the original file has not been modified.
  191. # [11:59] <Hixie> yecril71: just change the link to point to the trojan on some other site. or upload the trojan straight to that site. or do both.
  192. # [11:59] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@48.80-202-82.nextgentel.com)
  193. # [12:00] <yecril71> That would be easy to recognise since the browser starts downloading from another domain.
  194. # [12:00] <roc> the problem with HTML notifications is that that makes it impossible to integrate with platform notification frameworks such as Growl or libnotification
  195. # [12:01] <Hixie> roc: yeah i'm not really a big fan of it. i've been trying to discourage them (unsuccessfully)
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  197. # [12:04] <yecril71> (it seems the fingerprint could cover the URL as well)
  198. # [12:04] <Hixie> ?
  199. # [12:04] <yecril71> Oops, that is irrelevant, sorry.
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  207. # [12:53] <Philip`> Hixie: Judging by http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2008/001779.html , the .png file probably needs its svn:mime-type property set to something non-textual
  208. # [12:54] <Hixie> how do i change that?
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  210. # [12:57] <Philip`> svn propset svn:mime-type image/png content-venn.png
  211. # [12:57] <Philip`> ... I think
  212. # [12:58] <Philip`> (Apparently anything not starting with "text/" is considered to be binary, and prevents textual merging and newline conversion and all that stuff)
  213. # [13:02] <Hixie> done
  214. # [13:03] <annevk> data:text/xml,<test xmlns="&gt;">test</test> should this work?
  215. # [13:03] <annevk> "The attribute's normalized value MUST be either a URI reference β€” the namespace name identifying the namespace β€” or an empty string."
  216. # [13:09] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#fn-digest should we have something like this for password fields?
  217. # [13:10] <Hixie> what problem does it solve?
  218. # [13:11] <annevk> sending passwords more securely over the wire without having to resort to scripting aiui
  219. # [13:12] <Hixie> what does that protect against?
  220. # [13:13] <annevk> knowledge of the original string used which may be in use on other locations
  221. # [13:13] <Hixie> ah
  222. # [13:13] <Hixie> seems like SSL is a better solution to that
  223. # [13:14] <annevk> blog software etc. is not going to switch to SSL, is it?
  224. # [13:14] <Hixie> (also, if you can sniff the hash for one site, seems likely that you can sniff the hash for another site)
  225. # [13:14] <Hixie> if you're using the same password for a blog as for something which matters, you're pretty screwed anyway
  226. # [13:15] <Hixie> the other problem is that it would mean one of two things
  227. # [13:15] <Hixie> either the site has to store the actual password instead of a hash
  228. # [13:16] <Hixie> or the site has to support both legacy login and new login
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  230. # [13:16] <Hixie> the former increases the risk of the site being hacked and the passwords leaked, which is a bigger risk than sniffing in practice
  231. # [13:16] <Hixie> the latter seems like an unlikely thing for sites to do
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  233. # [13:30] <yecril71> If a number property cannot be coerced to an IDL number because it is too big,
  234. # [13:30] <yecril71> the property accessor returns 0.
  235. # [13:30] <yecril71> But it looks rather like NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR than 0 to me.
  236. # [13:31] <yecril71> Because the property contains a valid number, only its value is inaccessible to the script.
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  238. # [13:36] <heycam> yecril71, do you have some examples/tests that show this?
  239. # [13:38] <yecril71> It is specified in 2.8.
  240. # [13:38] <yecril71> I do not know how implementations behave.
  241. # [13:39] <heycam> 2.8?
  242. # [13:39] <heycam> oh of html5?
  243. # [13:41] <heycam> hmm those algorithms in 2.4.3 Numbers don't say what to do with overflow
  244. # [13:42] <heycam> or rather, the section on reflecting dom attributes don't say that such overflows are not "successful"
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  246. # [13:43] * heycam β†’ bed
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  248. # [13:49] <yecril71> Numbers do not overflow in HTML5 at all.
  249. # [13:50] * Hixie wonders how to define what a valid floating point number represents without resorting to the parsing algorithm
  250. # [13:56] <yecril71> A valid floating point number represents an abstract object with the following properties:
  251. # [13:57] <annevk> Hixie, ABNF!
  252. # [13:57] <yecril71> sign, value (as integer), exponent (as integer).
  253. # [13:57] <Hixie> annevk: that doesn't define what it means, only what the syntax is
  254. # [13:57] <Hixie> yecril71: that doesn't say what a particular string represents
  255. # [13:57] * gsnedders notes RFC 3339 doesn't define what the string means
  256. # [13:58] <yecril71> Figuring out what a particular string represents is called parsing.
  257. # [13:59] <yecril71> Do you want to parse without resorting to the parsing algorithm?
  258. # [13:59] <Hixie> no, i want to define what a string means for authors, without them having to understand a fifteen step parsing algorithm
  259. # [14:00] * Hixie does so and checks in the result
  260. # [14:03] <yecril71> Authors are expected to understand what a decimal expansion is.
  261. # [14:03] <yecril71> The exponent is a notation for multiplication.
  262. # [14:03] <Hixie> nothing in the spec actually said that until abotu 2 minutes ago
  263. # [14:04] * Hixie wonders how to resolve zcorpan's feedback regarding the parsing of numbers
  264. # [14:04] <Hixie> IE's parsing algorithm is wacky
  265. # [14:04] * gsnedders places bet it's saner than its HTTP parsing
  266. # [14:06] <Hixie> IE checks if the next character is [a-zA-Z] or [\192-\214] or
  267. # [14:06] <Hixie> > [\216-\246] or [\248-\501] or [\506-\535] or [\592-\680] or \902 or
  268. # [14:06] <Hixie> > [\905-\906] or \908 or [\910-\929] .... etc, and if so, drop the
  269. # [14:06] <Hixie> > attribute.
  270. # [14:06] * Hixie doesn't understand what determines membership in that set
  271. # [14:06] <takkaria> gsnedders: IE's number parsing algorithm parses HTTP? :P
  272. # [14:06] <gsnedders> takkaria: :P
  273. # [14:06] <gsnedders> takkaria: I haven't even looked a number parsing in HTTP
  274. # [14:07] <gsnedders> But that description so far seems saner than parts of the HTTP behaviour
  275. # [14:09] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-83-100-138-116.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  276. # [14:09] <yecril71> I would say IE treats letters as invalid but allows symbols at the end.
  277. # [14:10] <Hixie> define "letters"?
  278. # [14:10] <yecril71> You already have.
  279. # [14:10] <Hixie> as what?
  280. # [14:11] <yecril71> [a-zA-Z] or [\192-\214] or…
  281. # [14:11] <Hixie> or what? the list above is incomplete.
  282. # [14:11] <Hixie> and i certainly don't want to list the entire unicode table with "yes" or "no" for each character.
  283. # [14:12] <yecril71> You can just refer to Unicode.
  284. # [14:13] <Hixie> ...and say what?
  285. # [14:14] <yecril71> Letters are invalid, symbols are ignored.
  286. # [14:14] <Hixie> what do you mean by "letters"?
  287. # [14:15] <yecril71> Characters used to spell words.
  288. # [14:15] <Hixie> is U+8273 a letter?
  289. # [14:15] <Hixie> or U+2874
  290. # [14:15] <Hixie> or any other character?
  291. # [14:15] <Hixie> we need to define this precisely
  292. # [14:15] <Hixie> in a way that matches IE
  293. # [14:15] <Hixie> if we are to do this
  294. # [14:16] <Hixie> just saying "letters" is inadequate
  295. # [14:16] <yecril71> U+8273 is a letter.
  296. # [14:17] <annevk> Is "Letter" a character class in Unicode?
  297. # [14:17] <yecril71> I guess so.
  298. # [14:17] <annevk> e.g. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/20bw873z.aspx suggests Microsoft might use something like that
  299. # [14:18] <Hixie> guessing isn't really going to cut it here
  300. # [14:18] <yecril71> The meaning of punctures depends on the language.
  301. # [14:19] <yecril71> I think they should not be treated as letters.
  302. # [14:19] <Hixie> what we think isn't really relevant here
  303. # [14:19] <Hixie> if we're trying to match IE
  304. # [14:19] <Hixie> annevk: yeah that might be what they're using. i'd need to check the ranges.
  305. # [14:20] <yecril71> Note that IE supports BMP characters only.
  306. # [14:23] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@adsl-71-147-38-238.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net)
  307. # [14:24] <annevk> http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/PropList.txt code points marked L& are that class prolly
  308. # [14:24] * annevk is not sure whether the list is complete, though it looks like it
  309. # [14:27] <yecril71> The list is expected to grow as new characters are identified.
  310. # [14:27] * annevk whois test
  311. # [14:28] <annevk> wtf, HTTP stopped working
  312. # [14:28] <annevk> yecril71, sure
  313. # [14:30] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@cm-84.215.140.104.getinternet.no)
  314. # [14:30] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@cm-84.215.140.104.getinternet.no)
  315. # [14:31] <Philip`> Hixie: Should "-0" be a valid signed integer?
  316. # [14:32] <Philip`> Hixie: If it is, it doesn't represent the negative number represented in base ten by the string "0", it just represents zero
  317. # [14:32] <Hixie> hm
  318. # [14:35] <yecril71> How can a script detect HTTP 404 in a window it is driving?
  319. # [14:36] <Hixie> Philip`: better?
  320. # [14:36] * Joins: gsnedders_ (n=gsnedder@host86-136-52-180.range86-136.btcentralplus.com)
  321. # [14:36] <yecril71> responseXML is called XMLDocument in mshtml
  322. # [14:36] <Hixie> yecril71: the server knows it sent a 404, so it can put a marker in the page
  323. # [14:37] <yecril71> But the marker can be faked.
  324. # [14:38] <Philip`> Hixie: Sounds okay now
  325. # [14:38] <Hixie> if the server is faking the marker, it can fake the 404...
  326. # [14:38] <Philip`> (where "okay" means "probably about correct", as opposed to "understandable and helpful to normal people")
  327. # [14:38] <yecril71> The server cannot fake the 404.
  328. # [14:39] <Hixie> The server can fake the 404.
  329. # [14:39] <yecril71> If the server returns 404, it is genuine.
  330. # [14:39] <jwalden> <?php header("HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found"); ?> or somesuch
  331. # [14:39] <Philip`> Hixie: Valid floating point numbers don't really represent m*10^e - they represent a floating point approximation of that number
  332. # [14:39] <Hixie> heycam: wow, congratulations on your appointement in the svgwg
  333. # [14:40] <Hixie> Philip`: how do you mean?
  334. # [14:40] <jwalden> Hixie: 2, not 10
  335. # [14:40] <yecril71> jwalden: that is still genuine.
  336. # [14:40] * Philip` wonders why he is able to send messages to this channel but has not received any for the past few minutes
  337. # [14:40] <jwalden> not sure I understand "genuine"
  338. # [14:41] * Philip` thus relies on krijnh's logs to allow bidirectional communication
  339. # [14:41] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@ool-182f8118.dyn.optonline.net)
  340. # [14:41] <Hixie> yecril71: if your point is that the server can make mistakes, then yes, but that's a bug in the server. it can just as easily make the mistake of sending back 404 for a page that it shouldn't send back a 404 for.
  341. # [14:41] <Hixie> jwalden: 5e3 is 5 x 10 ^ 3
  342. # [14:41] <Hixie> jwalden: not 5 x 2 ^ 3
  343. # [14:42] <yecril71> The server has an ultimate authority on the resources it serves.
  344. # [14:42] <jwalden> maybe I don't have enough context; I was assuming this was in reference to idealized floating-point numbers
  345. # [14:42] * Quits: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk) (Remote closed the connection)
  346. # [14:42] * Joins: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk)
  347. # [14:42] <yecril71> If it says it is not there, it is not there.
  348. # [14:42] <yecril71> It is like immaculate conception.
  349. # [14:43] <yecril71> God cannot lie, and the server cannot fake 404.
  350. # [14:43] <yecril71> Once it returns 404, the resource is REALLY NOT THERE.
  351. # [14:43] <Hixie> god is omnipotent, of course he can lie :-)
  352. # [14:44] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@modemcable211.1-80-70.mc.videotron.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  353. # [14:44] <yecril71> God cannot lie in the sense that whatever he says, becomes truth at the very moment.
  354. # [14:45] <Hixie> so what happens if god says "This sentence is a lie"?
  355. # [14:45] <yecril71> Our universe transforms to an alternative one.
  356. # [14:46] <Hixie> (or what happens if you are trying to find a picture of god, and you go to http://example.org/god, and the server returns a picture of god, with the status code 404?)
  357. # [14:46] <takkaria> "please leave your sense of logic at the door" has never been more applicable
  358. # [14:47] <yecril71> The client script cannot detect it is 404.
  359. # [14:47] <Philip`> Hixie: I mean that e.g. "1e-1" doesn't represent 1*10^-1, it represents (something)*2^(something) which is a different number
  360. # [14:48] <Hixie> Philip`: no, it represents 0.1. Now the browser might have a hardware limitation that prevents it from accurately representing that number efficiently, and thus it might not in fact treat it as 0.1 but as some rough approximation of 0.1, but the string itself actually represents 0.1.
  361. # [14:49] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-148-25-197.range86-148.btcentralplus.com) (Nick collision from services.)
  362. # [14:50] <Philip`> I guess that's just a matter of perspective :-)
  363. # [14:51] <Hixie> Philip`: put it this way. if a browser implemented html5 using bcd representations, would it be non-conforming?
  364. # [14:52] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  365. # [14:53] <Philip`> Hixie: Probably, because ECMAScript requires IEEE 754 double semantics
  366. # [14:54] <Hixie> certainly when exposing the numbers to ECMAScript they'd need to be converted to base-2 representations
  367. # [14:54] <Hixie> but we're not talking about JS APIs here
  368. # [14:54] <Hixie> anyway
  369. # [14:54] <Hixie> bed time
  370. # [14:54] <Hixie> nn
  371. # [14:54] <takkaria> I thought BCD was something they made up to waste time in computing classes
  372. # [14:55] <yecril71> BCD is for calculating your tax returns.
  373. # [14:55] <Philip`> Some CPUs have special instructions for BCD computations
  374. # [14:55] <gsnedders> What's BCD?
  375. # [14:55] <yecril71> And the balance of your bank account.
  376. # [14:55] <yecril71> Binary Code for Digits.
  377. # [14:55] <Philip`> gsnedders: Binary Coded Decimal
  378. # [14:56] <takkaria> fixed-point, surely, not BCD?
  379. # [14:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: which is where you take a decimal number, then represent each digit as 4 binary digits
  380. # [14:56] <gsnedders> fun
  381. # [14:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: (so e.g. a 32-bit register could represent a 8-digit decimal number)
  382. # [14:56] <gsnedders> Yeah
  383. # [14:57] <Philip`> It makes arithmetic more fun
  384. # [14:57] <yecril71> IMB invented BCD for financial calculations on mainframes.
  385. # [14:57] <yecril71> s/IMB/IBM/
  386. # [14:58] <yecril71> in order to minimize roundoff errors.
  387. # [14:59] <yecril71> There is no way the page can know if the document has been printed or not.
  388. # [14:59] <yecril71> Short of revieweing a scan of the printout, that is.
  389. # [15:00] <Philip`> takkaria: You'd want fixed-point rather than floating-point, but I guess you'd want it to be decimal fixed-point rather than binary fixed-point so that you can convert to/from human-readable decimal representations with much less cost
  390. # [15:01] * gsnedders needs to make notes on 100 pages per day to get through all the texts for his English dissertation before term starts again
  391. # [15:01] <Philip`> takkaria: (because converting a binary number to a decimal string is probably very expensive when the numbers have a dozen digits and your CPU is made of cheese and string)
  392. # [15:02] <takkaria> true
  393. # [15:03] * Philip` once made a three-digit binary-to-decimal converter at school using simple NAND/NOR/etc chips, and it took two whole breadboards
  394. # [15:07] <Philip`> (I probably should have just used a BCD chip, but that would have been no fun)
  395. # [15:07] <gsnedders> Your school had BCD chips?
  396. # [15:10] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-42-114.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  397. # [15:11] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Music suggestions?
  398. # [15:11] <yecril71> Footnotes are different from asides.
  399. # [15:12] <yecril71> Asides provide illustrative content,
  400. # [15:12] <yecril71> foot notes provide technical content that is no fun to read.
  401. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: MF DOOM, MadLib, .. MadVillian
  402. # [15:13] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@modemcable168.84-81-70.mc.videotron.ca)
  403. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> Yesterday's New Quintet
  404. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> Clutchy Hopkins
  405. # [15:16] <Philip`> gsnedders: Yes - 7441 BCD-to-decimal decoder, I think
  406. # [15:18] <Philip`> yecril71: The Hitchhiker's Guide disproves your claim that footnotes are no fun to read
  407. # [15:18] <jwalden> BCD finds use in TI-8[34].* calculators, among others, unless the machines have changed since the 83+ times
  408. # [15:18] * gsnedders marks MikeSmith suggestions for later and tunes into gothic metal on last.fm
  409. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> Flann O'Brien proved some things about footnotes a while before that
  410. # [15:20] <Philip`> MikeSmith: But I've never read anything he wrote, whereas I have read HHGTTG, so I can only use the latter as evidence :-p
  411. # [15:21] <takkaria> try reading John Stuart Mill's Utilitarianism for an amusing footnote, and that was the 1800s
  412. # [15:21] * gsnedders still hasn't worked out whether we're markup geeks or Eng.lit. geeks
  413. # [15:21] <takkaria> I'm a philosophy geek ^_^
  414. # [15:22] <gsnedders> takkaria: You're crazy.
  415. # [15:22] <takkaria> no, just bored :(
  416. # [15:22] <yecril71> What is fun in "op.cit., 100-157?"
  417. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> yecril71: stop, stop, you're making me do bellylaughs
  418. # [15:24] <yecril71> I shall consider stopping as soon as I get a decent footnote element.
  419. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> Philip`: you have something to look forward to if you've never read Flann O'Brien
  420. # [15:26] <Philip`> MikeSmith: That's only something to look forward to if I ever plan to read him in the future
  421. # [15:26] * gsnedders goes back to writing notes on Nabokov
  422. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> yecril71: I recommend you stick to telling jokes like "op.cit., 100-157?".. that one's a classic. You should be a professional footnote comedian.
  423. # [15:27] <Philip`> That seems a very specialised profession
  424. # [15:27] <Philip`> LaTeX makes it a bit tricky to have footnotes inside footnotes, which always annoys me
  425. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I've given up on music and now I just listen to old episodes of CBS Radio Mystery Theater featuring E.G. Marshall.. "the theater of the imagination"
  426. # [15:28] <gsnedders> "He felt both sorry and repelled but, realizing that the material, apart from its one specific function, had no potentional whatever, he kept doggedly at his chor"
  427. # [15:28] <gsnedders> *chore
  428. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> Philip`: if you plan to try psilocybin or LSD in the future, I recommend that you consider trying it in combination with reading At-Swim-Two-Birds
  429. # [15:30] * gsnedders tries to imagine Philip` trying such things
  430. # [15:30] * gsnedders fails miserably
  431. # [15:34] <yecril71> It is not possible to getElementById an element in a disconnected subtree,
  432. # [15:35] <yecril71> therefore the uniqueness restriction of identifiers in disconnected subtrees
  433. # [15:35] <yecril71> arguably serves no purpose.
  434. # [15:35] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I think the closest I'll ever get to that is trying BSD
  435. # [15:38] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  436. # [15:39] <annevk> yecril71, fwiw, IRC is not the best place to comment on the spec (I might have mentioned this already...)
  437. # [15:40] <annevk> yecril71, that is, unless Hixie is around and happens to be editing that part of the specification, it's generally a waste of time
  438. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I guarantee you the Berkeley guys who came up with BSD did their fair share of ther *SD and psilocybin. Billy Joy needed the holy ghost to be able to write his TCP/IP implementation
  439. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> yecril71: I think your IRC comments need more footnotes, preferably humorous ones.
  440. # [15:46] <Philip`> MikeSmith: That's not possible unless IRC has explicit syntax to represent footnote semantics
  441. # [15:47] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-83-100-138-116.karoo.KCOM.COM) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  442. # [15:48] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@71.244.90.14)
  443. # [15:48] <yecril71> Hixie has encouraged me to share my comments here.
  444. # [15:48] <yecril71> This way, he wastes my time by sending irrelevant information to me,
  445. # [15:49] <jwalden> probably to stimulate discussion before a proposal, I suspect
  446. # [15:49] <yecril71> while I do not waste his.
  447. # [15:49] <jwalden> email discussion is no fun for hashing out basics, too slow
  448. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I'm already on top of it. I'm on the #irc channel the master IRC network alerting J. Oikarinen about his lack of foresight
  449. # [15:52] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: Are you writing a XML-based replacement as well?
  450. # [15:52] <Dashiva> Atom is a good starting point
  451. # [15:52] * Quits: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.10)
  452. # [15:52] <takkaria> the IRC protocol is a wonderful mess that deviates significantly from its documentation
  453. # [15:53] <annevk> Dashiva :D
  454. # [15:53] <yecril71> I imagine Hixie can scan the logs if he wishes to, provided the log machine works.
  455. # [15:54] <yecril71> So it is not quite like typing into the void.
  456. # [15:54] <gsnedders> takkaria: I think that's an understatement
  457. # [15:55] <annevk> oh, he has his own logs, but he rarely replies to random banter :)
  458. # [15:56] <yecril71> It is me who is replying here.
  459. # [15:57] * annevk shrugs
  460. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: I'm writing it in Lisp
  461. # [16:01] <takkaria> s-expressions for IRC actually aren't a bad idea
  462. # [16:02] <yecril71> Playing jingles in the backround of spoken text does not seem like a good idea.
  463. # [16:02] <yecril71> It can make the text significantly harder to understand.
  464. # [16:03] <gsnedders> Why are there so many good Finnish bands?
  465. # [16:04] <yecril71> Because the Finns have long nigths with nothing to do :-)
  466. # [16:04] <yecril71> nights
  467. # [16:05] * Joins: kangax_ (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
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  469. # [16:12] <yecril71> CSS behaviors, as implemented by Internet Explorer, are quite convenient.
  470. # [16:13] <yecril71> On the other hand, they require scripts to run anyway,
  471. # [16:13] <yecril71> and once scripts can run, the events can be attached using a setup script.
  472. # [16:14] <yecril71> This would require the CSS selector API.
  473. # [16:21] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@71.244.90.14) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  475. # [16:26] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@cm-84.215.140.104.getinternet.no)
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  479. # [17:10] <Philip`> Dashiva: XMPP already supports multi-user chat, so that'd probably be a better starting point
  480. # [17:10] <Philip`> or maybe it's already the finishing point
  481. # [17:10] <Philip`> but anyway it uses XML so it must be good
  482. # [17:11] <Philip`> (Never mind that you can basically destroy an entire channel by sending namespace-ill-formed XML that the server will blindly retransmit to every other user in the channel and cause their connections to drop)
  483. # [17:21] <jwalden> that's a server bug, no?
  484. # [17:21] <jwalden> or so I'd expect
  485. # [17:24] <Philip`> Yes (in ejabberd) - it's fixable, but not trivially, and it's the kind of bug that XML seems to encourage
  486. # [17:25] <Philip`> (It's non-trivial because you need a namespace-aware self-contained-XML-fragment serialiser, and you need it written in Erlang)
  487. # [17:28] <annevk> hmm, class names are case-insensitive?
  488. # [17:28] <annevk> oh, they're not
  489. # [17:44] <hdh0> in 4.5.13.1, "because the order is not particular important" should be "particularly"
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  524. # [22:17] * zcorpan_ ponders about the interactiveness of <details>
  525. # [22:18] <zcorpan_> Hixie: shouldn't <legend> ban interactive descendants if the parent is <details>?
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  598. # [23:11] <heycam> thanks Hixie (re svgwg)
  599. # [23:12] <heycam> Philip`, i'd say that "-0" shouldn't be a signed integer, one reason for which would be that the integral types in Web IDL don't include a "-0" value
  600. # [23:12] <heycam> (though float does)
  601. # [23:14] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@host81-130-19-123.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  602. # [23:14] <Philip`> heycam: There already isn't a one-to-one mapping between strings and values, e.g. "01" and "1" both mean the same number, so is it bad if "-0" and "0" both mean the same number too?
  603. # [23:19] * Quits: kangax_ (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  604. # [23:19] <heycam> i don't think having multiple strings mapping to the same number is a problem. but the fact that "01" means the same regardless of whether the type is a long or a float, but "-0" means different things, might be trouble.
  605. # [23:19] <heycam> well not trouble, ...
  606. # [23:19] <heycam> but unexpected
  607. # [23:20] <heycam> (though i expect the number of authors to know about negative zeroes in floats to be small anyway)
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  609. # [23:26] <Philip`> heycam: As far as I can tell, "-0" means the same as "0" in HTML5's definition of floating point numbers, because it's defined in terms of ideal real numbers
  610. # [23:26] <Philip`> (and ideal real numbers don't have a -0)
  611. # [23:28] <heycam> oh
  612. # [23:28] <heycam> so html5 parsing of floats is different from ecma-262 parsing of floats
  613. # [23:29] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  614. # [23:30] <Philip`> HTML5 parsing of floats doesn't even allow "1e+1"
  615. # [23:30] <Philip`> (It only allows "1e1" and "1e-1")
  616. # [23:32] <Philip`> which is probably going to be horribly confusing for anyone who's generating HTML from a language that serialises large floating point numbers with "...e+...", i.e. pretty much any language
  617. # [23:32] <heycam> yeah, i think it would be better if they parsed the same
  618. # [23:32] <heycam> is there a particular reason to disallow "1e+1" and other things?
  619. # [23:33] <Philip`> Ask Hixie :-)
  620. # [23:33] <heycam> Hixie is hereby asked
  621. # [23:34] <zcorpan_> iirc, it's to be compatible with parseInt() in as many languages as possible
  622. # [23:34] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Why would you parse a floating point number with parseInt?
  623. # [23:34] <zcorpan_> er
  624. # [23:34] <zcorpan_> parseFloat
  625. # [23:35] <Philip`> It seems much more useful to be compatible with printFloat, because millions of people are going to be doing that, whereas about five people are going to be writing web browsers that have to parse these floats
  626. # [23:35] <heycam> and they already have routines for parsing floats with "e+" in them from the js engines, i suppose
  627. # [23:35] <Hixie> please send e-mail if you want e+ support
  628. # [23:37] * zcorpan_ was thinking of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#number
  629. # [23:37] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Ah, I was thinking of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#rules-for-parsing-floating-point-number-values
  630. # [23:37] <Philip`> particularly when it's used for reflecting content attributes
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  633. # [23:44] * Philip` will send e-mail
  634. # [23:45] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  635. # [23:48] * gsnedders often emails himself
  636. # [23:48] * gsnedders is that much of a loner
  637. # [23:52] * Lachy waves from London
  638. # [23:52] <Lachy> I arrived here earlier this afternoon
  639. # [23:52] <gsnedders> How come you're in London?
  640. # [23:53] <Lachy> holiday
  641. # [23:53] <Lachy> also because there is an Australia shop here where I can stock up on my supplies of Vegemite, Tim Tams, Aeroplane Jelly and Cottees Cordial
  642. # [23:55] <Philip`> Is Vegemite much different to Marmite?
  643. # [23:55] <Lachy> I just hope they have all that stuff in stock. If they don't, I'll be disappointed because the shipping costs for that stuff if I have to get it posted are expensive
  644. # [23:56] <Lachy> Vegemite is the original and superior version of Marmite
  645. # [23:56] <Lachy> I think marmite is quite disqusting, actually
  646. # [23:56] <Lachy> *disgusting
  647. # [23:57] <smedero> what are the differences in texture and/or taste?
  648. # [23:57] <Lachy> marmite is a lot more runny
  649. # [23:57] <Lachy> it's difficult to describe the differences in taste
  650. # [23:58] <Lachy> smedero, what country are you in?
  651. # [23:58] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@nat/apple/x-8c0496de9f82d5ca)
  652. # [23:58] <smedero> united states
  653. # [23:58] * smedero hides
  654. # [23:58] <Lachy> there are some Australia stores in the US. Order a small tube of it and try it out
  655. # [23:59] <Lachy> do you get marmite in the uS?
  656. # [23:59] * gsnedders takes his pitch-fork to smedero
  657. # [23:59] <Philip`> It comes in tubes? How odd
  658. # [23:59] <Lachy> it comes in tubes and jars
  659. # [23:59] <smedero> yeah, i've come across it from time to time... more so in the northeast than here on the west coast.
  660. # [23:59] <Lachy> the tubes are smaller, lighter and cost less to post
  661. # Session Close: Tue Dec 30 00:00:00 2008

The end :)