/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-12-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 31 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:40] * gsnedders blames jgraham for him falling in love
  12. # [00:40] <gsnedders> :P
  13. # [00:41] <gsnedders> (It's fun giving not quite enough information for things to quite make sense)
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  16. # [00:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: I can't help it I just have that efect on people :p
  17. # [00:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: Not with you, you silly! :P
  18. # [00:55] <jgraham> Ah yes, I was confused between love and repulsion. Sorry the concepts are pretty similar
  19. # [00:55] * gsnedders is listening to Starálfur by Sigur Rós from Ágætis byrjun
  20. # [00:55] <gsnedders> W
  21. # [00:55] <gsnedders> *ith that song
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  23. # [00:58] <jgraham> gsnedders: If you have only fallen in love with one song you really need to listen to more Sigur Ros :)
  24. # [00:58] * gsnedders has been listening to most of their free stuff
  25. # [00:58] * jgraham would get the accents right but for some reason terminal.app isn't playing ball
  26. # [00:58] <gsnedders> That's the only one I've totally fallen for :P
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  28. # [01:00] <jgraham> I recommend the DVD "Heima" which collects recordings they made when doing a series of free, unannounced(?) gigs round iceland. It really evokes a sense that the music is the product of the landscape in whih they grew up
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  33. # [01:13] <karlcow> [18:38] * gsnedders blames jgraham for him falling in love
  34. # [01:14] <karlcow> girlfriend or boyfriend should be mandatory before any participation to html work.
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  36. # [01:14] <jgraham> karlcow: Sadly I don't think I helped gsnedders love life in any obvious way
  37. # [01:15] <jgraham> ^insert apostrophy as needed
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  39. # [01:16] <jgraham> (I would hope for a second order effect whereby he meets superior partners through his new found appreciation for >0 Sigur Ros songs)
  40. # [01:16] <jgraham> s/partners/partner(s)/
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  42. # [01:18] <karlcow> jgraham: that's a good start ;)
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  46. # [01:26] <yecril71> disabled=yes is better than disabled=true,
  47. # [01:26] <yecril71> and just disabled is better than disabled=yes.
  48. # [01:26] <yecril71> disabled=disabled is a logical disaster.
  49. # [01:27] <yecril71> The problem with disabled=true is
  50. # [01:27] <yecril71> that it means "it is disabled"
  51. # [01:27] <webben> yecril71: Is this apropros of something?
  52. # [01:27] <yecril71> It is a propos of the syntax of boolean attributes.
  53. # [01:28] <yecril71> ... whereas we really want to say "I want it disabled",
  54. # [01:28] <webben> yecril71: What change are you proprosing to the spec.
  55. # [01:28] <webben> *proposing
  56. # [01:28] <yecril71> It is not me, but the change proposed was that Boolean attributes
  57. # [01:29] <yecril71> should accept Boolean literals as values.
  58. # [01:29] <webben> yecril71: Change proposed where?
  59. # [01:29] <Philip`> webben: A few hours ago in this channel
  60. # [01:29] <yecril71> On IRC.
  61. # [01:29] <webben> oh okay
  62. # [01:29] <webben> disabled=disabled is normal for XML.
  63. # [01:29] <webben> disabled="disabled" rather
  64. # [01:30] <yecril71> and "I want it disabled" is better reflected by disabled=yes.
  65. # [01:30] <yecril71> disabled="yes" is also normal for XML.
  66. # [01:30] <yecril71> disabled="disabled" is a decision of XHTML, and it is a logical disaster.
  67. # [01:31] * fakeolliej is now known as olliej
  68. # [01:31] <yecril71> Because it means that the property of being disabled should be disabled.
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  70. # [01:32] <Philip`> It seems like simply a mapping of HTML4's boolean attribute syntax onto XML that will produce an equivalent DOM, rather than a real design decision of XHTML
  71. # [01:33] <yecril71> But the preferred syntax in HTML4 is just disabled.
  72. # [01:33] <yecril71> With no value.
  73. # [01:33] <yecril71> And SGML tells it means disabled="disabled".
  74. # [01:34] <Philip`> That syntax in HTML4 is just an abbreviation, and XML doesn't support that kind of abbreviation so it uses the equivalent unabbreviated form
  75. # [01:34] <yecril71> Anyway, it is very unfortunate.
  76. # [01:35] <webben> yecril71: Not quite. HTML4 doesn't prefer one or the other, but notes that many user agents don't recognize unmimimized boolean attributes. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/intro/sgmltut.html#h-3.3.4.2
  77. # [01:35] <yecril71> preferred in HTML4, not *by* it.
  78. # [01:36] <webben> ah I see.
  79. # [01:37] <webben> yecril71: The current spec says to use either disabled or disabled="disabled" for conformance: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#boolean-attribute
  80. # [01:38] <webben> or disabled="" I guess?
  81. # [01:38] <yecril71> Of course; this does not preclude my having an opinion on what is recommendable.
  82. # [01:38] <webben> yecril71: Absolutely. But it seems you are proposing a change to the current draft?
  83. # [01:39] <yecril71> Conditionally: If the proposal of disabled="false" would make it,
  84. # [01:39] <webben> yecril71: A potential hiccup is how do browsers treat disabled="no" or disabled="false"?
  85. # [01:39] <yecril71> I would prefer it to be disabled="yes".
  86. # [01:40] <webben> if they treat disabled="no" or disabled="false" the same as disabled="disabled", I'd say that makes disabled="yes" or disabled="true" even more confusing.
  87. # [01:40] <yecril71> Otherwise, it is all right with me, provided that XHTML agents do the right thing
  88. # [01:40] <yecril71> when they encounter disabled="yes".
  89. # [01:41] <yecril71> The proposition was to make disabled="false" an equivalent for not disabled.
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  91. # [01:41] <Philip`> webben: Browsers ignore the attribute value entirely, and just care whether the attribute is present or not, as far as I'm aware
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  93. # [01:42] <webben> I wonder whether any pages depend on disabled="false" or disabled="no" being treated as disabled="disabled".
  94. # [01:42] <yecril71> And the values "false" and "true" have a predicative modality, which is wrong because they are obviously intentional.
  95. # [01:42] <webben> Actually, I wonder the same for the other boolean attributes.
  96. # [01:42] <yecril71> Of course, disabled was just an example.
  97. # [01:43] <webben> yecril71: disabled is the only case where the current spec makes things very confusing, isn't it?
  98. # [01:43] <Philip`> webben: A quick search didn't find any blatant examples of that, but there are pages doing things like in http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081230#l-917
  99. # [01:44] <yecril71> A cache manifest stored locally loses its content type header.
  100. # [01:44] <webben> Philip`: Interesting. _Perhaps_ one could define disabled="no" to be parsed as if the attribute was not there.
  101. # [01:45] <webben> and thus those scripts would still work as intended.
  102. # [01:46] <Philip`> webben: That might be possible but it would be insane :-p
  103. # [01:47] <Philip`> It would be particularly confusing when you setAttribute('disabled', 'no')
  104. # [01:47] <webben> hah, true.
  105. # [01:47] <webben> yecril71: Your proposed change doesn't sound viable.
  106. # [01:47] <yecril71> It would be better if manifest version were explicit in the magic line.
  107. # [01:48] <yecril71> It is not my proposition.
  108. # [01:48] <yecril71> s/my/MY/
  109. # [01:48] <webben> yecril71: Okay. I'm confused. Does the current draft do what you want?
  110. # [01:49] <yecril71> Yes, I only wanted to prevent disabled="false".
  111. # [01:49] <webben> Ah okay.
  112. # [01:50] <webben> Doesn't sound like disabled="false" is viable, then. :)
  113. # [01:53] <yecril71> How would browser vendors know what is plain text and what is encoded text?
  114. # [01:54] <yecril71> I would rather say that marking symbols in text as errors is acceptable.
  115. # [01:54] <yecril71> Or that text areas are subject to spell checking whereas simple controls are not.
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  117. # [01:59] <yecril71> Safari in Polish wants to check everything everything as English, which is very annoying.
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  123. # [02:40] <Dashiva> jgraham: lastweek seems to be getting political now
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  154. # [08:21] <Hixie> "if everything is required to be the same, how can anyone invent something new?"
  155. # [08:21] <Hixie> not sure where to even begin with that
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  171. # [10:55] <yecril71> RDFa is not only about allowing the users to find relevant information.
  172. # [10:56] <yecril71> It is about hammering it onto the items so that it is hard to miss (particularly referring to licenses).
  173. # [10:56] <yecril71> And without modifying the resources themselves, unless they are in HTML.
  174. # [10:57] <yecril71> Which seems a particularly paradoxical requirement.
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  177. # [11:05] <yecril71> First of all, Wikipedia seniors are extremely cross with semantics;
  178. # [11:05] <yecril71> they mostly want just the text, as simple as possible.
  179. # [11:06] <yecril71> They want to understand what the code is about at a glance.
  180. # [11:06] <annevk> Alex Russell now works for Google? Interesting...
  181. # [11:06] * annevk didn't know
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  185. # [11:36] <Hixie> at the rate i've been replying to e-mails since october 2007, and the rate new e-mails have been arriving, i'll finish with dealing with e-mail feedback in october 2009, exactly on schedule
  186. # [11:38] <annevk> assuming an equivalent amount of new e-mail?
  187. # [11:41] <Hixie> right
  188. # [11:42] <Hixie> basically if you draw a line from the first point on the graph to the last point on the graph and follow that to zero e-mails, you hit october 2009.
  189. # [11:43] <Hixie> (if you do the same with the blue line, you end up with never hitting zero, but that's another story)
  190. # [11:54] <takkaria> lots of the current feedback seems to be blocked on other people, looking at the issues list
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  196. # [12:35] <Hixie> takkaria: yeah
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  201. # [13:08] <gpy> var happy = new Year("2009"); event.celebrate = function(event);
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  203. # [13:15] <olliej> gpy: that's a syntax error
  204. # [13:15] * olliej hides
  205. # [13:19] <gpy> olliej: yeah, cant do curlys at te moment ;D
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  215. # [14:14] <annevk> is EH saying that following XML5 is allowed per XML 1.0 for text/xml byte streams?
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  217. # [14:28] <gsnedders> annevk: It would appear so, yes
  218. # [14:28] <gsnedders> (If that wasn't rhetorical)
  219. # [14:29] <gsnedders> "In order to support correction of errors, the processor may make unprocessed data from the document (with intermingled character data and markup) available to the application."
  220. # [14:29] <gsnedders> That's from fifth ed.
  221. # [14:30] * annevk blinks
  222. # [14:31] <annevk> we could rename XML5 "XML Application 1.0" maha
  223. # [14:31] <gsnedders> :D
  224. # [14:34] * gsnedders decides to follow annevk and post a list of the cities he's been in this year
  225. # [14:34] <gsnedders> (albeit, a somewhat shorter list :))
  226. # [14:40] <annevk> Philip`, do you have numbers on start tags that should have a closing tag and also have a solidus?
  227. # [14:41] <annevk> Philip`, numbers on </br> in text/html would also be cool
  228. # [14:53] <gsnedders> http://gsnedders.com/my-year-in-cities-2008
  229. # [15:01] <Philip`> annevk: I'm not sure what kind of numbers you mean
  230. # [15:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: Integers, I expect
  231. # [15:02] <Philip`> ...
  232. # [15:03] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  233. # [15:13] <Philip`> annevk: Out of about 130K pages, I see 988 with at least one </br> (case-insensitive), and 95 with at least one <br></br>, and 909 with at least one </br> not preceded by a <br>
  234. # [15:18] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h116-000-163-146.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  238. # [15:41] <gsnedders> olliej: Where should I run away to?
  239. # [15:42] <gsnedders> olliej: This room is rather confining.
  240. # [15:42] <olliej> gsnedders: loader bugs are scary and horrible, so anywhere the loader bugs aren't
  241. # [15:42] * gsnedders jumps into the unloader
  242. # [15:52] * olliej is now known as fakeolliej
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  244. # [15:55] * fakeolliej is now known as olliej
  245. # [16:01] <annevk> Philip`, a statistic list of start tag with solidus occurances in your dataset
  246. # [16:03] <Philip`> annevk: Hmm, I can't think of an easy way of collecting that kind of data
  247. # [16:03] <annevk> Philip`, I'm relatively certain we can't change this (we tried at some point), but it is prolly useful to have the data to convince Julian (though if he is the only one it might be a waste of time... meh)
  248. # [16:04] <annevk> Philip`, can you generate a file with links for the various </br> cases?
  249. # [16:04] <annevk> Philip`, (preferably HTML with <a>)
  250. # [16:10] <Philip`> annevk: Like http://philip.html5.org/data/slash-br.html ?
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  257. # [16:42] <annevk> wow, Julian hasn't really looked closely
  258. # [16:42] <annevk> not sure I should invest effort into the </br> stuff then
  259. # [16:54] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@cm-84.215.140.104.getinternet.no)
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  262. # [17:08] <gsnedders> Wow. That took around a minute to get around three hundred programs down to three.
  263. # [17:10] <jcranmer> good or bad?
  264. # [17:10] <gsnedders> It shows how badly personal finance programs on OS X are at being simple and being able to cope (at all!) with multiple currencies
  265. # [17:11] <gsnedders> Those were the only two criteria I used to eliminate around 300 programs.
  266. # [17:16] * gsnedders rules out another after around two minutes of trying it
  267. # [17:20] <jwalden> a winner?
  268. # [17:20] <gsnedders> Down to two
  269. # [17:20] <gsnedders> I have started hating the one I'm trying yet
  270. # [17:23] * Joins: svl_ (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  271. # [17:31] <gsnedders> http://www.jumsoft.com/money/ — A program I can live with! :P
  272. # [17:35] <Philip`> "Money supports the account types you are most likely to need—Bank, Cash, Credit Card, Investment, and Loan. Create as many types as you need; try to use all the capabilities in Money!" - that last bit sounds like they're encouraging their users to get into as many forms of debt as possible
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  275. # [17:51] <jwalden> meh, I think it's saying to use all the various types that you actually need, not to spread across multiple tracking systems
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  278. # [18:23] <gsnedders> hahahaha
  279. # [18:23] <gsnedders> New poll on lastweek
  280. # [18:24] <gsnedders> which document will have the most impact on the world: "Hixies HTML5 specification" or "The bible"
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  284. # [18:47] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Hixies HTML5 is kinda redundant, since the H is for Hixie
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  292. # [20:07] <gsnedders> http://pastebin.ca/1297237 — I am _so_ tempted to call that file ihatexml.php (with apologies to jgraham)
  293. # [20:11] <Philip`> gsnedders: I hope that's not performance-critical code
  294. # [20:11] <gsnedders> Philip`: Knowing PHP, that's probably the quickest way to do it
  295. # [20:11] <Philip`> (Also, do you want s/ifLetter/isLetter/?)
  296. # [20:11] <gsnedders> Philip`: (um, yeah)
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  306. # [20:49] * eric_carlson_ is now known as eric_carlson
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  314. # [21:15] * gsnedders finds issue with Unicode spec
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  321. # [21:26] <Philip`> "these examples seem as easy to fix up as other parsing oddities like mis-nested tags (e.g., <b>foo<i>bar</b>baz</i>)" - I'm not sure the term "easy" is the best one to use
  322. # [21:27] * Joins: tantek__ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  323. # [21:28] <Philip`> Perhaps "evil" or "insane" would be more appropriate
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  337. # [22:21] * gsnedders has not missed the start of the TV program he was going to watch on grounds he misremembered the time
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  340. # [22:37] <gsnedders> Wait, DOM can hold things that can't be serialized to XML!?
  341. # [22:37] <gsnedders> I mean, it throws exceptions with all kinds of things, but it is still possible under DOM Level 3 Core + Load & Save modules to create something that isn't well-formed XML.
  342. # [22:37] <gsnedders> That, um, stupid
  343. # [22:42] <jruderman> that has been possible since forever. CDATA sections containing "]]>", empty text nodes, and adjacent text nodes, for example.
  344. # [22:43] <jruderman> that's why i serialize my pages as a series of createElementNS and appendChild calls
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  358. # [23:29] * Quits: epeus (n=KevinMar@c-67-188-7-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  359. # [23:43] <gsnedders> jruderman: It's still possible with that.
  360. # Session Close: Thu Jan 01 00:00:00 2009

The end :)