/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-01-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 07 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:04] <gsnedders> hsivonen: If you have Firefox with an extension installed, it can take you to a site to buy it :P
  5. # [00:04] <gsnedders> (i.e., no)
  6. # [00:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: http://dret.net/netdret/docs/wilde-cacm2008-xml-fever.html#web-blindness is possibly even more apt currently
  7. # [00:07] <Hixie> that entire document is spot on and priceless
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  10. # [00:13] <Dashiva> "Things that are priceless just cost more."
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  14. # [00:23] <takkaria> is someone accusing HTML5 of not knowing how to refuse things again?
  15. # [00:23] <takkaria> tsk
  16. # [00:23] <Dashiva> I guess we'll have to remove @headers again
  17. # [00:24] <Hixie> who's complaining we're not saying no enough?
  18. # [00:25] <Hixie> i just said no like a dozen times in the last 24 hours
  19. # [00:26] <takkaria> from Preston on public-html
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  21. # [00:31] <Hixie> ah
  22. # [00:33] <Hixie> you know, i look forward to october, and going to last call. people are always ragging on about how html5 has a long timeframe, but hell, it's moving faster than, e.g., DOM3 Events, or many parts of CSS, and at least we have a real timetable that we're sticking to.
  23. # [00:33] <Hixie> reminds me of http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1172653243&count=1
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  27. # [00:49] <webben> gsnedders: A link to the book's entry in http://www.worldcat.org/ might be more practical.
  28. # [00:49] <webben> or to a particular page in Google Books.
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  42. # [02:04] <Hixie> wakaba: wow, the whatpm and webhacc stuff has progressed a lot since i last looked at it
  43. # [02:04] <Hixie> wakaba: what's the status these days? is it stable enough to use?
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  50. # [03:21] <Hixie> wakaba: looks like Message::Charset::Info is missing from the manakai-core tarball
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  92. # [07:44] <olliej> hmm, no roc
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  123. # [10:39] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/diveintomark/statuses/1101238201 Smil 3.0 is over half the size of HTML5
  124. # [10:41] <annevk> It's not really clear to me what we can conclude from that...
  125. # [10:42] <annevk> E.g. is it lacking detail? Is there a 100 pages devoted to different schema languages?
  126. # [10:42] <annevk> Do they use a page per namespace? :p
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  128. # [10:42] <hsivonen> nothing to conclude except that it's a long spec
  129. # [10:44] <annevk> Previous versions of SMIL were too. There's a lot of stuff in there... I sort of hope we never have to implement more than the subset that is in SVG
  130. # [10:45] <annevk> and even that I wish we would not have to
  131. # [10:49] * hsivonen wonders if markp is following accessibility at xiph dot org
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  133. # [11:14] <roc_> SMIL is horrible
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  135. # [11:16] <Lachy> hsivonen, yt?
  136. # [11:17] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
  137. # [11:17] <Lachy> see http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brucelawson.co.uk%2Ftests%2Fhtml5-youtube.html
  138. # [11:17] <Lachy> The error report about the object element's missing attributes could be clearer about which attributes are required
  139. # [11:18] <Lachy> Bruce couldn't figure out why it wasn't valid and just asked me about it
  140. # [11:18] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes. still waiting for upstream to solve it :-/
  141. # [11:18] <Lachy> ok
  142. # [11:18] <hsivonen> also, I have lots of fixed from MikeSmith pending deployment
  143. # [11:19] <hsivonen> s/fixed/fixes/
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  145. # [11:51] * annevk finds https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imap5
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  147. # [12:00] <zcorpan> NAMESPACE:
  148. # [12:00] <zcorpan> Kill it after torturing it
  149. # [12:01] <zcorpan> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/imap5/current/msg00116.html
  150. # [12:02] <hsivonen> I wonder how offering IE8 as a high-priority update goes considering that IE7 was supposed to be a high-priority update but IE6 is still out there
  151. # [12:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: since ie7 requires xp sp2 and there are users with windows pre xp sp2, i guess the ie6 users are mostly using pre xp sp2 and so will continue to be unaffected
  152. # [12:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: but most of the current ie7 users might well upgrade
  153. # [12:05] <hsivonen> isn't SP2 a high-priority update, too?
  154. # [12:05] <zcorpan> dunno
  155. # [12:05] <roc> it is
  156. # [12:06] <roc> I met a friend today who uses IE6 because it uses less memory than other browsers
  157. # [12:06] <roc> techie friend too
  158. # [12:09] <hsivonen> does XP1 still get security patches?
  159. # [12:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: Well I built gecko with HTML 5 parsing and it consistently crashes at startup :)
  160. # [12:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: what platform?
  161. # [12:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: I've used Leopard on Intel and 32-bit Intrepid
  162. # [12:11] <Philip`> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/imap5/current/msg00119.html - "During my recent job search, I was lectured that I had to get over this quaint notion that interoperability is important or even desirable. ... I have become convinced that it is hopeless to do anything in open standards beyond a general framework."
  163. # [12:11] <jgraham> hsivonen: 32-bit Intrepid
  164. # [12:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: interesting
  165. # [12:12] <jgraham> hsivonen: Let me know if I can do anything useful to diagnose the issue'
  166. # [12:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: are you using a profile with non-default open tabs?
  167. # [12:13] <jgraham> hsivonen: I created a new profile.
  168. # [12:14] <jgraham> (it shows the profile manager before crashing)
  169. # [12:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok. It's hard to figure that out without a stack trace.
  170. # [12:20] <rubys> that's what I saw too when I used no-remote
  171. # [12:20] <rubys> and -P
  172. # [12:20] <rubys> with no options, it worked for me
  173. # [12:21] <takkaria> they're working on imap5?
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  183. # [13:03] <Philip`> I also get a crash on startup after the profile manager (when running with -profilemanager)
  184. # [13:04] <Philip`> http://pastie.org/354574
  185. # [13:06] <Philip`> and it still crashes if I just use -no-remote (and not -profilemanager)
  186. # [13:08] <Philip`> but otherwise it seems to work alright
  187. # [13:11] <Philip`> It seems incredibly slow at loading the HTML5 spec
  188. # [13:12] <Philip`> and I can see it redrawing the screen after every few words have been added to the bottom
  189. # [13:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: it probably triggers O(n^2) behavior on the CSS side
  190. # [13:25] * dave_levin|away is now known as dave_levin
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  193. # [13:34] <zcorpan> hmm... <form><div><span></form><h4>
  194. # [13:34] <zcorpan> html5 says to close the form
  195. # [13:35] <zcorpan> the top 4 browsers don't
  196. # [13:35] <zcorpan> our rendering is compatible with html5 afaict but he have to change it because it breaks sites (bug with 13 dups)
  197. # [13:35] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
  198. # [13:44] <Hixie> you mean the <h4> ends up in the <span>?
  199. # [13:45] <Hixie> cos the spec does do that now
  200. # [13:46] <Hixie> zcorpan: ^
  201. # [13:48] <annevk> Hixie, how would you link window.XMLHttpRequest with a script execution context so that if you do var obj = {}; obj.XMLHttpRequest = otherwindow.XMLHttpRequest otherwindow.XMLHttpRequest is associated with its original script execution context and not the one obj is running in
  202. # [13:48] <zcorpan> Hixie: oh it does? ok then that's good and validator.nu is out of date
  203. # [13:49] * jgraham guesses html5lib is also out of date
  204. # [13:49] <jmb> hubbub certainly is :)
  205. # [13:49] <annevk> Hixie, the SharedWorker IDL block uses <code>
  206. # [13:50] <zcorpan> jgraham: yep (at least the instance running at james.html5.org)
  207. # [13:50] <annevk> Hixie, showNotification is still present in Web Workers
  208. # [13:52] <Hixie> annevk: no idea, like i said though, this whole area is agoing to change radically
  209. # [13:52] <Hixie> annevk: (please file a bug about SharedWorker)
  210. # [13:52] <Hixie> (or send me a mail)
  211. # [13:53] <Hixie> time for bed
  212. # [13:53] <Hixie> nn
  213. # [13:54] <jgraham> zcorpan: Still wrong with the latest version. I must have missed that change and obviously we don't have tests for it :(
  214. # [14:26] <zcorpan> it seems that in firefox it's impossible to close the form with the above markup
  215. # [14:26] <zcorpan> and you can nest forms with <form><x></form><form>
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  226. # [15:46] <annevk> heycam, does Web IDL define a way to define a prototype object, such as window.XMLHttpRequest?
  227. # [15:46] <annevk> heycam, also, does it define a way to say "interface X complements interface Y"?
  228. # [15:46] <Dashiva> Isn't that the Interface Object?
  229. # [15:47] <annevk> Dashiva, prolly true, now that we have "NoInterfaceObject"... bit confusing with Window members though
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  233. # [16:01] <annevk> interface object is defined in section 4.3 of Web IDL btw
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  235. # [16:03] <annevk> does DontDelete imply you cannot overwrite it? because you can do window.XMLHttpRequest = otherwindow.XMLHttpRequest in browsers
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  237. # [16:05] <annevk> I guess ReadOnly would imply that, great
  238. # [16:06] * annevk tries to avoid actually reading the ECMAScript spec for now
  239. # [16:07] <Philip`> annevk: DontDelete only affects [[Delete]], not anything else
  240. # [16:07] <Philip`> (as far as I can see)
  241. # [16:07] <annevk> heycam, why is "interface Dog;" present in the first example of section 3.3?
  242. # [16:07] <Philip`> "DontDelete: Attempts to delete the property will be ignored. See the description of the delete operator in section 11.4.1."
  243. # [16:09] <annevk> ta
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  246. # [16:27] <Philip`> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/JSON_ARIA#Defining_the_widget - I suppose that's one way to get around the lack of comments in JSON - just make up your own syntax
  247. # [16:29] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  248. # [16:29] <aroben> hi everyone!
  249. # [16:32] <Philip`> Howdy
  250. # [16:33] <webben> Philip`: I suspect those aren't meant to be in the final JSON. I could be wrong.
  251. # [16:37] <Dashiva> Philip`: Comments are part of many JSON extensions, so it's probably not invented there :)
  252. # [16:45] <webben> Dashiva: Wouldn't they normally use something like // or /* */ rather than <!-- --> ?
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  255. # [16:47] <Dashiva> Browsers have to support <!-- for (single-line) comments anyway
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  267. # [17:52] <Lachy> hey brucel
  268. # [17:52] <brucel> hi
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  289. # [23:06] <webben> cesar2: when you say "getting" to mean via the video API?
  290. # [23:06] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  291. # [23:07] <cesar2> webben: yeah
  292. # [23:08] <webben> cesar2: Something i've been suggesting to Hixie is that metadata in the source video should be available to the DOM API.
  293. # [23:08] <webben> cesar2: However, if you're including a video on a page, you're normally going to be able to extract that info and provide it to your page manually anyhow.
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  295. # [23:09] <cesar2> webben: true. But I figure that it could be useful for extension developers for firefox
  296. # [23:10] <webben> hmm interesting point
  297. # [23:11] <webben> cesar2: Perhaps put together some use-cases and write to WHATWG mailing list with that suggestion? http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Is_there_a_process_for_adding_new_features_to_the_spec.3F
  298. # [23:11] <webben> cesar2: I suspect Hixie's likely to treat it as a version 2 feature ... but no harm in raising the issue early.
  299. # [23:11] <cesar2> webben: I'll think about it some more. thanks for pointing to the resource
  300. # [23:11] <webben> np :)]
  301. # [23:12] <gsnedders> I have some vague recollection of that being mentioned at TPAC
  302. # [23:12] <gsnedders> I also have a vague recollection of Hixie thinking that should be added
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  313. # Session Close: Thu Jan 08 00:00:00 2009

The end :)