/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-01-08 / end

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  11. # [00:22] <Hixie> cesar2, webben: exposing metadata from the video is already on the v2 list
  12. # [00:23] <cesar2> what is the v2 list?
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  17. # [00:29] <Hixie> the comment in the spec near the video section that starts "v2 features:" or some such
  18. # [00:30] <Hixie> every now and then someone tries to upload gigabyte-sized files to my data url kitchen
  19. # [00:30] <Hixie> qtf
  20. # [00:30] <Hixie> wtf even
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  26. # [00:55] <hallvors> think I submitted a 1mb image to the data-url maker at some point (by mistake) :-p
  27. # [00:57] <Hixie> 1mb is fine
  28. # [00:57] <Hixie> 1gb not so much
  29. # [00:57] * Hixie imposses a 100mb limit
  30. # [00:57] <Hixie> imposes
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  32. # [01:01] <BenMillard> annevk, "Ideal" entry on your blog has this after the doctype: <!-- last modified Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 -->
  33. # [01:01] <takkaria> fubky
  34. # [01:01] <takkaria> funky, even
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  51. # [01:40] <webben> Hixie: ah cool :)
  52. # [01:41] <webben> re v2 list
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  74. # [04:39] <Hixie> http://webblaze.cs.berkeley.edu/2009/mime-sniff/mime-sniff.txt
  75. # [04:39] <Hixie> adam rocks
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  90. # [06:10] <BenMillard> some better ALA comments are turning up
  91. # [06:11] <BenMillard> http://alistapart.com/comments/semanticsinhtml5?page=5#41 and http://alistapart.com/comments/semanticsinhtml5?page=5#48 imho
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  93. # [06:12] <BenMillard> (Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis on existing extensibility mechanisms in HTML, then Ryan Cannon quoting the HTML5 spec of data-* attributes)
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  95. # [06:18] <BenMillard> hmm, XHTML5: http://alistapart.com/comments/semanticsinhtml5?page=6#52
  96. # [06:20] <BenMillard> (has an XML prolog and <doctype html> but <link rel="stylesheet" /> rather than <?xml-stylesheet ...?>)
  97. # [06:20] <BenMillard> (with a space before the />, XHTML-in-text/html style)
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  104. # [06:57] * BenMillard just saw JohnResig writing about data-* attributes here: http://ejohn.org/blog/html-5-data-attributes/
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  107. # [07:02] <BenMillard> JohnResig, how about this instead of data-* for that example: <b title="John Resig lives in Boston and likes to eat bacon">John</b> says: [...]
  108. # [07:03] <BenMillard> JohnResig, or linking the name to a page which includes these (and possibly more) details: <a href="...">John</b> says: [...]
  109. # [07:05] <BenMillard> JohnResig, perhaps you could show what an hCard for yourself would look like if written using data-* and compare it to the same thing done using Microformats as a more compelling example?
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  151. # [10:10] <takkaria> yay for the Internet-Draft
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  169. # [11:58] <annevk> webben, fwiw, there's no <h> element in HTML5
  170. # [11:58] <annevk> re: http://www.alistapart.com/comments/semanticsinhtml5?page=6#53
  171. # [11:59] <Hixie> webben: (it's spelt <h1>)
  172. # [11:59] <annevk> (those hyperlinks seem bound to break the moment they remove a duplicate comment, grmbl)
  173. # [11:59] <webben> oh, didn't there used to be?
  174. # [11:59] <annevk> nope
  175. # [11:59] <webben> oh okay.
  176. # [12:00] * webben will write a correction.
  177. # [12:02] <webben> it's correct to say that the heading algorithm has been redefined to allow h1 to solve the problems I mention, right?
  178. # [12:03] <Hixie> <section> with <h1> solves the problem of content syndication where you don't know what level heading to use ahead of time
  179. # [12:04] <Hixie> that's really the only thing i was trying to solve with it, though it does effectively solve <h7> and copy-and-paste as well
  180. # [12:04] <webben> cool
  181. # [12:05] * Philip` thinks that if your document has more than six nested levels of headings, you should probably think about simplifying your document :-)
  182. # [12:05] <Hixie> yeah
  183. # [12:05] <webben> Generally true, yes.
  184. # [12:08] <Philip`> (I'd guess most existing uses of <h6> come from people wanting headings with a very small font, rather than people who've already used all of <h1>-<h5>)
  185. # [12:10] <hsivonen> The use case for h6 is shifting down heading when creating a compilation of documents that have h1-h5
  186. # [12:12] * webben issues his correction. Thanks for catching that Hixie and annevk .
  187. # [12:28] * webben is puzzled by how XHTML2's modularity magics away it's deviations from how test/html needs to be parsed. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2009Jan/0015.html
  188. # [12:28] <webben> *its
  189. # [12:29] <hsivonen> Hmm. Windows 7 beta tomorrow. I wonder if it installs under Parallels.
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  191. # [12:42] <annevk> Hixie, " XXX * simple color picker" is done
  192. # [12:42] <Hixie> yeah several a re done
  193. # [12:42] <Hixie> i'll probably go through the list in late february or march
  194. # [12:43] <annevk> k
  195. # [12:44] <hsivonen> hmm. the promo video listing new exciting features of Windows 7 lists features of which all but one are already in Mac OS X...
  196. # [12:45] <Hixie> what's the missing one?
  197. # [12:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: a window that tells you about the features of your device when you plug it in
  198. # [12:45] <Hixie> o_O
  199. # [12:45] <hsivonen> (I'm not sure that's a feature I want to have.)
  200. # [12:46] <hsivonen> device being a device other than the PC itself, that is
  201. # [12:48] <hsivonen> furthest block always stays on the stack, it seems. right?
  202. # [12:49] <Hixie> the root one? yeah
  203. # [12:49] <Hixie> pretty sure
  204. # [12:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: I mean "furthest block" in AAA
  205. # [12:49] <Hixie> oh
  206. # [12:50] <Hixie> i don't claim to know anything about AAA
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  208. # [12:50] <hsivonen> I assume "common ancestor" stays on the stack as well
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  211. # [12:55] <hsivonen> hmm. it *looks* like the local variables that are initialized by assigning from the stack or the list are all effectively weak references
  212. # [12:55] <hsivonen> I sure hope my analysis is correct.
  213. # [12:56] <Hixie> put a comment to that effect there so that when debugging you have a lead
  214. # [12:56] <hsivonen> I put "// weak ref" after each one
  215. # [12:57] <Hixie> i meant something like "I believe all these weak refs are correct, but if this is crashing around here, maybe my analysis is wrong" or some such :-)
  216. # [12:57] <hsivonen> ok. done
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  219. # [13:22] <hsivonen> bah, the Windows 7 beta requires Vista to begin with.
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  221. # [13:31] <gsnedders> hsivonen: What says that?
  222. # [13:35] <gsnedders> hsivonen: All I can see is it only upgrades from Win Vista SP1
  223. # [13:36] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I thought it meant upgrading was the only supported mode of installation
  224. # [13:36] <hsivonen> gsnedders: is that not the case?
  225. # [13:36] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I'm not sure. I think it's a question of how you read it.
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  227. # [13:37] <gsnedders> hsivonen: "you can most certainly do a clean install of the Windows 7 Beta"
  228. # [13:37] <gsnedders> hsivonen: From comments of the Win7 blog
  229. # [13:37] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ok.
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  250. # [15:47] <takkaria> does anyone know of something like a <canvas> interactive interpreter?
  251. # [15:47] <takkaria> so you have your canvas, your line history, and a box to type more instructions in
  252. # [15:57] <Philip`> takkaria: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Ccanvas%20id%3Dc%3E%3C%2Fcanvas%3E%3Cscript%3Ewindow.onload%3Dfunction()%7Bvar%20ctx%3Ddocument.getElementById('c').getContext('2d')%3B%0D%0A%20%20%2F*%20write%20your%20stuff%20here%20*%2F%0D%0A%7D%3C%2Fscript%3E
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  280. # [17:55] <annevk> http://twitter.com/threedaymonk/statuses/1104618551 welcome to the interwebs
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  291. # [18:48] <webben> Does anyone know the current story on incorporating MathML/SVG into text/html? Is the effort dead, deferred to a future version, low priority, or what?
  292. # [18:48] <olliej> annevk: hehehe
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  295. # [18:49] <gsnedders> webben: MathML is in current draft; SVG is awaiting action from SVG WG.
  296. # [18:49] <webben> it's in the draft now?
  297. # [18:49] <gsnedders> webben: (Hixie's original proposal for SVG is in the draft, just commented out)
  298. # [18:49] <gsnedders> webben: yeah
  299. # [18:49] * webben really needs to start following the draft via CVS again.
  300. # [18:49] <webben> gsnedders: thanks :)
  301. # [18:49] <Philip`> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/html5-gecko-build/ has a browser implementation with MathML and SVG support in text/html
  302. # [18:50] <webben> thanks Philip`
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  305. # [18:56] <webben> If I'm reading the draft right, it's basically just <math><!-- paste XML MathML here? --></math> ?
  306. # [18:57] <annevk> well, XML without prefixes or namespaces, but yeah
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  318. # [19:36] <BenMillard> webben, you are Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis?
  319. # [19:36] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  320. # [19:43] <hsivonen> rubys: I committed code for releasing memory in the HTML5 parser earlier today. I expect the code for releasing element nodes to change in the future to make it possible to dispatch memory release request to a different thread.
  321. # [19:44] <hsivonen> s/request/requests/
  322. # [19:47] <hsivonen> rubys: I hope the code for releasing local names can remain as-is. I'll have to check if atoms are thread-safe in Gecko.
  323. # [19:48] <hsivonen> (I'm not really satisfied with the manual nature of the memory management and having to know where stuff gets released, but alternatives seemed like overkills.)
  324. # [19:51] * Joins: sicking (n=chatzill@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  325. # [19:51] <rubys> I've only just gotten back to looking at the code, the first assumption that the code makes is that unicode is stored as utf-16.
  326. # [19:52] <rubys> For Ruby, at least, I'd like to use utf-8.
  327. # [19:53] <rubys> My immediate plans at to try to compile the generated code outside of Mozilla, stubbing everything I need to to get it to compile (not execute or even link, simply compile). That will give me an initial list of things I need to worry about.
  328. # [19:54] <hsivonen> I guess I should write some kind of document pointing out the memory ownership assumptions
  329. # [19:57] <rubys> don't worry too much about it, I'll discover what I need to from the code, when I see things that need addressed, I'll discuss them with you, and then over time we will evolve this into something that can handle multiple environments... at that point documentation would be helpful.
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  336. # [20:18] <takkaria> rubys: there is a C HTML5 parser around which assumes UTF-8 :)
  337. # [20:21] <rubys> takkaria: url?
  338. # [20:22] <takkaria> http://www.netsurf-browser.org/projects/hubbub/
  339. # [20:22] <takkaria> I spent my summer working on it
  340. # [20:22] <takkaria> it hasn't had a formal release yet either
  341. # [20:22] <takkaria> but it is being used as a parser in a browser for minority OSs
  342. # [20:23] <rubys> good choice of license
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  345. # [20:43] <hsivonen> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=XHTML&diff=262789758&oldid=prev
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  348. # [20:45] <BenMillard> hsivonen, ouch.
  349. # [20:46] <smedero> whatwg has almost always referred to it as HTML5
  350. # [20:46] <smedero> and w3c has almost said HTML 5
  351. # [20:46] <smedero> why that needs to be corrected in an wikipedia article is beyond me
  352. # [20:47] <hsivonen> smedero: it's a convenient way to also brush off the observation that XHTML 1.2 is not chartered
  353. # [20:48] <hober> whatever happened to xhtml2 rebranding?
  354. # [20:48] <smedero> indeed
  355. # [20:49] <gsnedders> smedero: No, we haven't.
  356. # [20:49] <BenMillard> hsivonen, and changing xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/" to xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
  357. # [20:50] <smedero> i see that the whatwg specs do in fact have the space as well
  358. # [20:50] <gsnedders> smedero: WHATWG has for years called it Web Applications 1.0, and the combination of that with WF2 has often been called "HTML 5". The spec noted it was often called that too
  359. # [20:50] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@La0bd.l.pppool.de)
  360. # [20:50] <smedero> though I swore they didnt always
  361. # [20:50] <smedero> not that this matters one damn bit
  362. # [20:50] <smedero> hober: that's a great question... I was lead to believe that a consensus had been reached in 2007 to undertake that work...
  363. # [20:50] <smedero> (within the w3c)
  364. # [20:50] <smedero> perhaps i misunderstood
  365. # [20:51] <BenMillard> hsivonen, I'm also confused by the removal of .xml when .html and .htm are retained.
  366. # [20:52] <smedero> huh, what happened to: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml12
  367. # [20:52] <gsnedders> smedero: AFAIK they never published a WD…
  368. # [20:53] <smedero> yeah but there were editor's draft...
  369. # [20:53] <gsnedders> smedero: That won't be a TR
  370. # [20:53] <smedero> ahh
  371. # [20:53] <smedero> then the editor's draft is wrong
  372. # [20:53] <smedero> as it points to that URL
  373. # [20:53] <gsnedders> what ED?
  374. # [20:54] <smedero> well there this: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml12-20081023/xhtml12.html
  375. # [20:54] <gsnedders> Ah, the latest stable version link always points to such a URL even when it doesn't exist
  376. # [20:54] <smedero> there's actually a newer one here: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml12-20081223/
  377. # [20:55] <hsivonen> they removed the flaming subtitle, it seems
  378. # [20:56] <gsnedders> what subtitle?
  379. # [20:56] <hsivonen> gsnedders: meaningful, accessible XHTML
  380. # [20:56] <hsivonen> or something like that
  381. # [20:56] <gsnedders> ah
  382. # [21:01] <BenMillard> hsivonen, there's a section in the Talk page on the Wikipedia article about that, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:XHTML#Change_title_for_XHTML_1.2
  383. # [21:02] <BenMillard> it lists the entry on this page as how you find the XHTML 1.2 draft: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xhtml12
  384. # [21:03] <BenMillard> (the date is what you click to get the spec)
  385. # [21:04] <BenMillard> hmm, XHTML Media Types updated: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-media-types-20090107/
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  387. # [21:15] * gsnedders needs a word that means "not introspection".
  388. # [21:15] <Philip`> gsnedders: How about using two words?
  389. # [21:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: No.
  390. # [21:17] <hsivonen> extraspection? :-)
  391. # [21:18] <BenMillard> gsnedders, what's the context?
  392. # [21:18] <Philip`> Introspectionless?
  393. # [21:19] <gsnedders> hsivonen: It's s/a/o/, but no, that's still more specific. There are things that are neither.
  394. # [21:19] <Philip`> Antiintrospectionarianism?
  395. # [21:19] <gsnedders> BenMillard: tag for blog, to separate display of posts on the home page up
  396. # [21:19] <gsnedders> BenMillard: (Most of those tagged with introspection are also tagged with lust :))
  397. # [21:20] <BenMillard> outgoing?
  398. # [21:20] <gsnedders> BenMillard: That too leaves things that are neither
  399. # [21:20] <BenMillard> I think I understand what you're trying to convey and are similarly struggling to figure out the word. :)
  400. # [21:20] <gsnedders> (think of code, that isn't really observing anything)
  401. # [21:21] <gsnedders> BenMillard: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/introspection :)
  402. # [21:21] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Anything that isn't that.
  403. # [21:21] <BenMillard> perhaps the absence of the introspection tag is sufficient to indicate it is "not introspection"?
  404. # [21:21] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Then I have the issue of a column header.
  405. # [21:22] <BenMillard> gsnedders, do you have a demo page with placeholder text for it I could see?
  406. # [21:23] <gsnedders> BenMillard: does sftp://gsnedders:/dev/head work for you? :)
  407. # [21:24] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I may have uninstalled the only app I had which supported sftp...
  408. # [21:24] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Then you have the issue of reading my head, though.
  409. # [21:24] * gsnedders thinks BenMillard missed the joke
  410. # [21:25] * BenMillard gives up.
  411. # [21:28] * gsnedders tries to come up with a sample of what he wants, then realizes he can't decide how to mark it up ;P
  412. # [21:29] <gsnedders> Should post+summary be marked up in a dl?
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  420. # [21:39] <gsnedders> BenMillard: http://secret.gsnedders.com/g6/home.html
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  426. # [22:15] <BenMillard> gsnedders, <dl> makes sense there as it's a list of title+summary pairs.
  427. # [22:15] <gsnedders> Yeah, that was my conclusion
  428. # [22:16] <BenMillard> "Extrospection" seems to work in the context of it being a personal blog of a geeky person.
  429. # [22:17] <hsivonen> gsnedders: text in the top left corner overlaps other text
  430. # [22:17] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Yeah, I know there are issues.
  431. # [22:17] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.186)
  432. # [22:17] <gsnedders> (Heck, it's almost completely broken in Firefox, yet alone IE)
  433. # [22:18] <BenMillard> gsnedders, your current blog is like that in Fx2 (which is what I use)
  434. # [22:18] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Screenshot?
  435. # [22:23] <BenMillard> gsnedders, http://projectcerbera.com/!dev/temp/g-fx2.png
  436. # [22:23] <gsnedders> Um, that's odd.
  437. # [22:23] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  438. # [22:23] <BenMillard> I think it's to do with parsing unknown block-level tags
  439. # [22:23] <gsnedders> Ah.
  440. # [22:23] * gsnedders continues to ignore Fx2 :)
  441. # [22:27] * BenMillard returns to ignoring gnsedders's blog. :P
  442. # [22:28] <BenMillard> hmm, lunchtime
  443. # [22:28] * Parts: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  444. # [22:29] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  445. # [22:30] <gsnedders> lunchtime? :\
  446. # [22:30] * gsnedders wonders where BenMillard
  447. # [22:30] <gsnedders> is
  448. # [22:43] <smedero> at lunch?
  449. # [22:46] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@adsl-99-189-162-6.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  450. # [22:58] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  451. # [23:02] * Parts: blooberry (n=brian@c-76-126-102-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  452. # [23:20] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  453. # [23:23] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.117.236.207.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  454. # [23:36] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-bf4dc054156c7429)
  455. # [23:37] <hsivonen> hmm. no border-radius in Opera 10 :-(
  456. # [23:44] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-171-50-220.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  457. # [23:46] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64)
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  459. # [23:52] * Quits: sbublava (n=stephan@77.117.236.207.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  460. # [23:54] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.177) (Remote closed the connection)
  461. # [23:54] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.186) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  462. # [23:54] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.186)
  463. # [23:55] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-2009010213 [Firefox 3.2a1pre/20090107020423]")
  464. # Session Close: Fri Jan 09 00:00:00 2009

The end :)