/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-01-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jan 09 00:00:01 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:06] <roc> hsivonen: no -o-border-radius?
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  9. # [00:21] <maodun> Looking at the python version of html5lib - why do some of the entity names in constants.py not have versions which are without trailing semicolons. E.g., why do we gracefully parse "&Egrave" as "&Egrave;" but not "&Lambda" as "&Lambda;"?
  10. # [00:21] <hsivonen> roc: no, it seems it's not supported with -o-, either
  11. # [00:22] <takkaria> maodun: that's what the spec says
  12. # [00:22] <takkaria> maodun: some of them only work in attribute values for compat with IE, I believe
  13. # [00:22] <takkaria> or the other way round. I can't remmber
  14. # [00:22] <takkaria> anyway, it's IE-compat stuff
  15. # [00:23] <maodun> takkaria: ah, now I understand. thank you.
  16. # [00:28] <maodun> takkaria: actually, wait - so is the goal not to produce a very robust real-world parser but rather to reproduce the behavior of commonly used browsers? or is the assumption that reproducing the behavior of commonly used browsers will produce a very robust real-world parser? my intution would be that parsing &Lambda as &Lambda; would be the more robust solution, regardless of what IE does.
  17. # [00:30] <takkaria> depends what you mean by robust
  18. # [00:30] <takkaria> if you mean handling existing content as people expect it to be handled
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  20. # [00:30] <takkaria> then html5lib is pretty robust
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  22. # [00:31] <maodun> that is what i mean.
  23. # [00:32] <Hixie> people expect their pages to be handled like IE handles them, typically
  24. # [00:32] <maodun> so is the thought process that, because of IE, people tend to expect things such as &Lambda to pass through?
  25. # [00:32] <Hixie> i don't mean that they think "haha! i am going to omit a semicolon and that will trigger odd behavior!"
  26. # [00:32] <Hixie> i mean they just write web pages with mistakes, test them in their browser (usually IE, since IE has more market share), and assume all is well if it works
  27. # [00:33] <Hixie> yeah, what you said
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  29. # [00:33] <Hixie> see also the topic of the channel :-)
  30. # [00:33] <Hixie> web browsers often make very little sense
  31. # [00:34] <maodun> hahaha, ok, thank you for explaining, i now understand why it is implemented this way.
  32. # [00:34] <jmb> browsers make no sense. you have to be certified insane to work on one
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  35. # [00:40] <Hixie> ok can anyone see anything obviously wrong with http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/.ietf-websocket-protocol/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-00 other than the two missing sections?
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  44. # [01:11] <hober> 404
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  52. # [01:44] <Hixie> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-00.txt
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  58. # [02:41] <maodun> Maybe this isn't a big deal, but unless I can't read html5lib doesn't seem to conform to the spec here: http://rafb.net/p/3AqRUj30.html . Is this intentional?
  59. # [02:42] <takkaria> the spec has probably changed under html5lib in that case
  60. # [02:43] <maodun> so the spec is more modern?
  61. # [02:43] <takkaria> yeah, either that or there's a bug
  62. # [02:43] <maodun> ok, thank you
  63. # [02:43] <Hixie> i didn't think that had changed... do you have a test case demonstrating the problem?
  64. # [02:44] <takkaria> either that, or the code does do what the spec says, anyway
  65. # [02:44] <Philip`> How is html5lib differing from the spec there?
  66. # [02:45] <Philip`> (It's a bit different because it outputs the previously-consumed characters directly, rather than unconsuming them, but the effect should be identical)
  67. # [02:45] <maodun> Philip - ah, you're right, my mistake. Sorry.
  68. # [02:46] <Philip`> (It does that to make sure there's only ever one unconsumed character at a time, for minor efficiency gains)
  69. # [02:46] <Hixie> ok, now that's i've split out the protocol to an rfc, i guess teh next step is splitting the api to a w3c draft
  70. # [02:46] <Hixie> s/rfc/id/
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  120. # [09:10] <zcorpan___> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fdret.net%2Fnetdret%2Fdocs%2Fwilde-cacm2008-xml-fever.html
  121. # [09:10] <zcorpan___> hsivonen: since us-ascii is to be treated as windows-1252, why is reparsing required?
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  123. # [09:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan___: hmm. maybe us-ascii has been aliased to windows-1252 after I last reimplemented aliases
  124. # [09:12] <zcorpan___> hsivonen: btw, doesn't validator.nu support changing encoding on the fly?
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  128. # [09:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it doesn't.
  129. # [09:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: with natural buffering, it doesn't work
  130. # [09:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: and bookkeeping of when you can switch is pointlessly complex
  131. # [09:16] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok
  132. # [09:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan: OTOH, hindering buffering to enable on-the-fly change would suck, too
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  134. # [09:18] <zcorpan> did it support on the fly encoding change before?
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  136. # [09:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes, with natural buffering plus bookkeeping
  137. # [09:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan: which was pointless, because nearly all the time the bookking indicated that you can no longer switch
  138. # [09:22] <hsivonen> zcorpan: consider having non-ASCII in <title> and the decode buffer not only containing meta but the title, too
  139. # [09:24] <zcorpan> hsivonen: makes sense. i was just wondering if i was remembering correctly or not :)
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  156. # [10:18] <hsivonen> did Palm just migrate to WebKit as their app runtime? is the old Palm OS still under it?
  157. # [10:21] <billyjackass> hsivonen: yeah, they see to have moved to using WebKit as the Web engine for their new "Palm WebOS", but the old Palm OS is not under it
  158. # [10:21] <billyjackass> as far as I can tell
  159. # [10:21] <hsivonen> is WebOS Linux plus proprietary user land?
  160. # [10:22] <billyjackass> hsivonen: seems so
  161. # [10:22] <hsivonen> Wikipedia says Closed source and Linux
  162. # [10:22] <billyjackass> but there are not a lot of details
  163. # [10:22] <billyjackass> Palm has not developed a Palm operating system of their own for several years
  164. # [10:22] <billyjackass> they sold the code to Access several years back
  165. # [10:23] <billyjackass> but I don't think that WebOS is based on any of that old code at all
  166. # [10:23] <hsivonen> how many of all the companies that have their own port of WebKit contribute to the platform-independent core feature-wise?
  167. # [10:23] <billyjackass> hsivonen: very few, I think
  168. # [10:24] <billyjackass> in the particular of Palm, I don't think they have contribued any code back to the trunk at all yet
  169. # [10:24] <billyjackass> but maybe they will not that it's public
  170. # [10:25] <hsivonen> I see
  171. # [10:25] <billyjackass> Torch Mobile is an exception
  172. # [10:25] <hsivonen> Did Palm just throw away the BeOS code? did they buy it for the staff?
  173. # [10:25] <billyjackass> but that's kind of a special case since George Staikos is also one of the main developers of the Qt port of WebKit
  174. # [10:26] <billyjackass> I don't know that they did with the BeOS code. That's part of what Access owns now. Not sure what if anything they did with it
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  177. # [10:32] <jgraham> Philip`: Does that mean that you are resposible for some of the \ line continuation characters in html5lib?
  178. # [10:33] * jgraham has been stripping those out whenever he encounters them
  179. # [10:33] <jgraham> (but I thought anne had put them all in)
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  181. # [10:35] <Philip`> jgraham: I don't think I've intentionally added any, except when copying existing code that has them
  182. # [10:36] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/html5/websockets/ http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-00.txt
  183. # [10:36] <Hixie> both are autogenerated from http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/comms.html#network
  184. # [10:36] <Hixie> (which i'll eventually remove, once they're stable and so on)
  185. # [10:37] <jgraham> Philip`: OK :) It ould be nice if they disappeared over time :)
  186. # [10:37] <Philip`> jgraham: I'm happy to agree with that :-)
  187. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> Hixie: cool
  188. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw, do you know why Adam published the content-type-sniffing draft at his own space instead of at the IETF site?
  189. # [10:46] <Hixie> same reason http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/.ietf-websocket-protocol/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-01.prepare exists
  190. # [10:46] <Hixie> he's still editing it
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  192. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> OK
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  202. # [11:15] <gsnedders> Hixie: How are you creating the RFC format doc in the end?
  203. # [11:16] <gsnedders> Hixie: "_This section only applies to user agents, not to servers._" — that goes against RFC rules
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  205. # [11:18] <Hixie> html-[script]->xml-[xml2rfc]->rfc
  206. # [11:18] <Hixie> what goes against RFC rules?
  207. # [11:18] <gsnedders> Hixie: underlining
  208. # [11:19] <Hixie> that's not underlining in the sense they mean in the rules
  209. # [11:19] <Hixie> they mean literally overstriking an underbar
  210. # [11:19] <Hixie> it's a holdover from the 70s
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  212. # [11:21] * gsnedders is probably just missing something
  213. # [11:23] * gsnedders can't see how you can overstrike (in what he thinks of as overstriking) in a plain US-ASCII file
  214. # [11:23] <Hixie> that's because you're not using a teletype :-)
  215. # [11:24] <Hixie> in the olden days, when RFCs were new, computer screens weren't the norm
  216. # [11:24] <Hixie> and teletypes would literally print output
  217. # [11:24] <gsnedders> Ah, yeah
  218. # [11:24] <gsnedders> Teletypes would allow such things, true
  219. # [11:24] <Hixie> so you could underline an X by outputting 0x58 0x08 0x5F
  220. # [11:24] <gsnedders> Yeah, I can see.
  221. # [11:24] <Hixie> that's what's not allowed
  222. # [11:25] <Hixie> (because 0x08 isn't allowed)
  223. # [11:25] <Hixie> anyway :-)
  224. # [11:25] <gsnedders> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-editor/instructions2authors.txt also more generally states, though "No overstriking (or underlining) is allowed."
  225. # [11:25] <Hixie> right, that's what they mean though
  226. # [11:26] <gsnedders> I guess we can find out for sure upon RFC Ed. review :)
  227. # [11:27] <Hixie> i wonder how to handle terms like "task source" in http://dev.w3.org/html5/websockets/
  228. # [11:27] <Hixie> link them to WHATWG? list them in an appendix with references to HTML5?
  229. # [11:27] <Hixie> if anyone has any bright ideas, let me know
  230. # [11:29] <Hixie> nn
  231. # [11:29] <gsnedders> Hixie: they defined in HTML 5?
  232. # [11:30] <Hixie> yes
  233. # [11:31] <Hixie> but i must sleep
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  251. # [12:21] <hsivonen> Am I the only one who finds it amusing that Shelley Powers complains about multiple venues of discussion in the commenting system of her blog thereby launching yet another venue?
  252. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I suggest we all complain/agree about that on our blogs, and get further discussions going there
  253. # [12:24] <hsivonen> also, the notion that the WHATWG list needs to be shut down implies that those who demand it don't trust in the HTML WG list getting enough traction on its own merit
  254. # [12:27] <Philip`> Maybe they do trust in that, and just don't think the administrative cost of having multiple lists (and hence having to subscribe to them all, and deciding which one to post to, and failing to reach people who are only on one list) is justified by the benefits of keeping both lists
  255. # [12:30] <hsivonen> as it happens, the reasons why the W3C list exists in the first place are the reasons why some people who are on the WHATWG list don't subscribe to the W3C list
  256. # [12:31] <hsivonen> 1) the patent policy shuts out non-appointed employees of Members and 2) getting input from a wider community gets too much input
  257. # [12:31] <hsivonen> although #2 has gotten a lot better lately
  258. # [12:37] <webben_> hsivonen: Rather amusingly, 1) basically shuts out employees of ex-members too.
  259. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> well, perhaps the best solution to this is to shut down both lists and just have discussions on blogs
  260. # [12:38] <webben_> or Twitter ;)
  261. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> or on a Wiki
  262. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> or multiple Wikis
  263. # [12:38] <hsivonen> whoa. Yahoo! is not on http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List when did that happen?
  264. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> webben_: now you're talking :)
  265. # [12:38] <jgraham> Decentralisation FTW
  266. # [12:38] <webben_> hsivonen: And that would be the cause of my last comment ;)
  267. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: recently
  268. # [12:39] * jgraham wonders if there is a plot of #Members against time
  269. # [12:44] <hsivonen> I guess Yahoo! is really serious about its need to cut costs.
  270. # [12:44] <webben_> AFAIK we weren't actually participating in any WGs.
  271. # [12:44] <hsivonen> I get really weird errors from Jing when trying to integrate MikeSmith's patches
  272. # [12:44] <hsivonen> "Loaded balanced string"
  273. # [12:44] <hsivonen> Datatype library “http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes” not recognized.
  274. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> I'm good a breaking stuff
  275. # [12:46] <hsivonen> hmm. Jing is loading the datatype sample...
  276. # [12:47] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-177-3.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  277. # [12:48] <hsivonen> ok. the sample datatype was confusing Jing
  278. # [12:49] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@210-84-43-231.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  279. # [12:50] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  280. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, have you yet integrated any of your Jing changes into the upstream code?
  281. # [12:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: onto the branch
  282. # [12:51] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-97-132.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  283. # [12:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: now it's up to James Clark to pick stuff onto the trunk
  284. # [12:54] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-2009010213 [Firefox 3.2a1pre/20090107020423]")
  285. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> OK
  286. # [12:54] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: if the trunk gains all the functionality I need, I'll switch to the trunk
  287. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> cool
  288. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> James seems to have gone quiet again
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  293. # [13:11] * Joins: beowulf (i=wiglaf@61803.mobi)
  294. # [13:11] <beowulf> hello, is there an html5 help room, or is this it?
  295. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> beowulf: hey there. Long time no hear from you
  296. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> this is the right place
  297. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> or #html-wg on the W3C server
  298. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> or your own blog, if you prefer
  299. # [13:12] <beowulf> sweet :)
  300. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> if it's a complaint, though, the preference is definitely that you complain on your own blog or someone else's
  301. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> or on multiple blogs
  302. # [13:13] <beowulf> excellent
  303. # [13:14] <annevk> IRC ranting is acceptable too I think
  304. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> as long as you link to it from a blog
  305. # [13:14] <annevk> and easier than writing a whole post :)
  306. # [13:14] <annevk> heh
  307. # [13:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: linking to IRC rants from a blog is automatically outsourced
  308. # [13:15] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  309. # [13:16] <annevk> mr last week ^^
  310. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> yep, yeay for that. nobody could complain that we aren't collectively doing everything we can to enable them to complain more easily
  311. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> one big happy family
  312. # [13:16] <beowulf> :)
  313. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> beowulf: btw, wonder if you have heard any get details about the WebKit version on the new Palm WebOS thingey
  314. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> beowulf: also, if you have something you really need help with or info about, please don't let my nonsense distract you
  315. # [13:18] <beowulf> MikeSmith: I have left the world of dotmobi behind, so i'm a little out of touch with the mobile web biznez
  316. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  317. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> you landed somewhere else already, or have you become a gentleman of leisure?
  318. # [13:19] * Joins: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no)
  319. # [13:19] <beowulf> have landed in a wee web company, 'tis fun
  320. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> cool
  321. # [13:21] <beowulf> though if i was still with dotmobi i'd be getting paid in euro, not sterling...
  322. # [13:21] <beowulf> :(
  323. # [13:22] <annevk> ooh, sterling is bad these days
  324. # [13:22] * annevk is happy Opera now pays him in EUR instead of NOK
  325. # [13:22] <MikeSmith> sterling, what is that? Pirate money, like doubloons?
  326. # [13:24] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  327. # [13:24] <beowulf> doubloons would be good, her majesty's nuggets not so much
  328. # [13:31] <Lachy> LOL! I just noticed the poll on http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/ - "Which WHAT WG teamster is the biggest Smeghead" :-D
  329. # [13:32] * jgraham notices that zcorpan is never mentioned on last week
  330. # [13:33] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.79.246)
  331. # [13:34] <takkaria> heh
  332. # [13:34] <takkaria> this could turn into Werewolf quicklt
  333. # [13:49] <annevk> ah good, my name is wrong, so I'm not on the list
  334. # [13:51] <beowulf> i voted you all as smegheads
  335. # [13:51] <beowulf> seems only fair
  336. # [13:51] <Lachy> annevk, the only thing I see wrong with your name on the list is that "kesteren" has been spelt with a lowercase k.
  337. # [13:51] <Lachy> I voted for myself
  338. # [13:51] <annevk> Lachy, must be a different person then
  339. # [13:51] <beowulf> a narcissistic smeg head
  340. # [13:51] * annevk wonders why Ben Millard has so many votes
  341. # [13:51] <Lachy> I assume Mr Last Week has rigged the vote
  342. # [13:51] <takkaria> such accusations
  343. # [13:51] <annevk> meanwhile RB has posted something called "HTML4All HTML"
  344. # [13:51] <annevk> good times
  345. # [13:51] <jgraham> annevk: Where?
  346. # [13:51] <annevk> html4all public list?
  347. # [13:56] * Quits: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no) (Remote closed the connection)
  348. # [13:56] <jgraham> I like this from Josh: "[it's not worth bothering with this] Unless you come up with some really hot ideas that the ivory tower of
  349. # [13:56] <jgraham> the WHATWG will absorb, and their operational modus is capricious at best.
  350. # [13:56] <jgraham> "
  351. # [13:56] <jgraham> Nice to see that we so thoroughly convinced him of the benefits of doing research rather than believing hearsay</sarcasm>
  352. # [13:56] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/tools/js/coords-parsing.html
  353. # [13:57] <zcorpan> for comparison with ie
  354. # [13:58] <zcorpan> dunno how to get the parsed value from other browsers with js
  355. # [14:00] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  356. # [14:00] <zcorpan> i noticed that some characters aren't "fatal" in ie but are in html5, like linebreaks or ´
  357. # [14:01] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@cm-84.208.153.202.getinternet.no) (Remote closed the connection)
  358. # [14:01] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  359. # [14:01] <zcorpan> there are some characters that ie treat like the spec treats "."
  360. # [14:03] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
  361. # [14:06] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-171-50-220.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Remote closed the connection)
  362. # [14:08] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cmap%3E%3Carea%20shape%3D%22circle%22%3E%3C%2Fmap%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3E%0D%0Avar%20a%20%3D%20document.getElementsByTagName('area')%5B0%5D%3B%0D%0Afor%20(var%20i%20%3D%201%3B%20i%20%3C%200x3ff%3B%20%2B%2Bi)%20%7B%0D%0A%20%20a.coords%20%3D%20'1'%20%2B%20String.fromCharCode(i)%20%2B%20'2%2C3'%3B%0D%0A%20%20w('0x'%20%2B%20i.toString(16)%20%2B%20'%20('%20%2B%20String.fr
  363. # [14:08] <zcorpan> omCharCode(i)%20%2B%20')%3A%20'%20%2B%20a.coords)%3B%0D%0A%7D%0D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E
  364. # [14:08] <zcorpan> or http://tinyurl.com/9s7mb3
  365. # [14:12] <takkaria> I was wondering why RB was so silent for so long
  366. # [14:14] <takkaria> I also really don't understand why he thinks implementors' needs get seen to more than users
  367. # [14:14] <takkaria> cos all implementers actaully need is a clear spec to implement
  368. # [14:14] * annevk wonders what mailing list to use to comment on http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-00
  369. # [14:17] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-jlreq-20081015/ might be useful to figure out Japanese ruby usage
  370. # [14:17] <Philip`> annevk: Have you not been paying attention recently? Just comment on a random person's blog
  371. # [14:18] <annevk> on a random blog entry?
  372. # [14:18] <Philip`> Sure
  373. # [14:18] <Dashiva> Comment to your own blog
  374. # [14:19] <Philip`> Bonus points if your comment gets deleted as spam, and then you can complain in a year's time that the spec editor just ignored your feedback
  375. # [14:21] <jgraham> Commnent on MySpace
  376. # [14:22] <takkaria> quite an impressive amount of work RB has done
  377. # [14:22] <zcorpan> Philip`: could you maybe look for pages that have something other than u+0020, u+002c, u+002d, u+002e, 0-9, u+003b, A-Z and a-z in a coords attribute?
  378. # [14:23] * annevk whistles "wot"
  379. # [14:23] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  380. # [14:25] * Joins: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no)
  381. # [14:28] <Philip`> zcorpan: Looking for simply (?i)coords="[^"]*[^0-9,\x20"-] I find none so far but will leave it a bit longer
  382. # [14:30] <Philip`> Ah, there's a few unusual ones
  383. # [14:30] <Philip`> Including <area shape="rect" coords="157,5,233,20' href=" href="http://president.psu.edu/gallery/" alt="Photo Gallery"#">
  384. # [14:32] <zcorpan> "157,5,233,20' href=" gives different results in html5 and ie (html5 drops the 20)
  385. # [14:33] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@cm-84.208.153.202.getinternet.no)
  386. # [14:34] <annevk> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/01/09/Mime-Sniff :)
  387. # [14:34] <annevk> sverrej!
  388. # [14:43] <Philip`> <area alt="UNESCO" title="UNESCO" coords="rect:0,0,110,90" href="http://www.unesco.org">
  389. # [14:52] <Philip`> zcorpan: http://philip.html5.org/data/coords-with-unusual-chars.txt
  390. # [14:59] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  391. # [15:01] <zcorpan> Philip`: thanks!
  392. # [15:04] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  393. # [15:09] <Philip`> (I hope you don't care about non-double-quoted attributes)
  394. # [15:09] * Quits: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  395. # [15:11] <zcorpan> not really, although the data contains some noise (e.g. i don't care about 89.0,19.0,89.0...)
  396. # [15:12] <zcorpan> "615, 0, 768, 40 " (with tab at the end) parses differently
  397. # [15:12] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  398. # [15:13] <zcorpan> "438,110,496,1ß2,496,156,438,159" parses the same
  399. # [15:13] <zcorpan> "2,20', 87,38'" differently
  400. # [15:15] <Philip`> I left that noise in since it was rare enough to be easy to ignore when reading the output, and since I wanted to see how common non-integers were
  401. # [15:15] <zcorpan> ok
  402. # [15:18] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  403. # [15:24] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  404. # [15:27] <zcorpan> so 3 pages break with the html5 algorithm, out of 130k
  405. # [15:28] <zcorpan> i guess that's acceptable, but otoh those pages work in today's browsers and it's easy to change the algorithm
  406. # [15:29] <jmb> what are these pages that break?
  407. # [15:30] <zcorpan> http://www.psu.edu/ur/GSpanier/gallery/
  408. # [15:30] <zcorpan> http://www.motorsportforbundet.no/
  409. # [15:30] <zcorpan> http://www.kipwmi.com/
  410. # [15:32] * hallvors makes Opera pretend certain <a href="javascript:;"> links in hotmail have "aNewWindow='true'" attributes.
  411. # [15:36] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
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  414. # [15:46] * hallvors admires the obsession with detail in the "requirements of Japanese typography" document
  415. # [15:46] <hallvors> "Japanese composition is based on the full width design of characters, but strictly following the full width based composition sometimes produces an unbalanced appearance. In such exceptional cases, the appearance as a result of the composition must be given higher priority than the full width design principle. When and how to invoke such exceptional procedures has a direct bearing on the quality of the text layout. In other words, it is
  416. # [15:46] <hallvors> of how to resolve the conflicts between the principle and the products of it."
  417. # [15:47] <hallvors> nice. "resolving conflicts between the principle and the products of it"?!
  418. # [15:51] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@ip565f6edb.direct-adsl.nl)
  419. # [15:53] <takkaria> hmm, I want to go read that document now
  420. # [15:57] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-37-38.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  421. # [16:05] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
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  426. # [16:23] * zcorpan looks at http://realtech.burningbird.net/semantic-web/semantic-markup/oh-look-its-not-just-us-semantic-web-dweebs-who-noticed and wonders why a semanticist uses inline svg for decorative background images
  427. # [16:24] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  428. # [16:25] <annevk> SVG clutter is hip
  429. # [16:26] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  430. # [16:27] * annevk is a bit confused by http://alistapart.com/comments/semanticsinhtml5?page=7#65
  431. # [16:28] <annevk> e.g. "I’d predict the chances of its widespread adoption happening anytime soon is pretty much non-existent. You only have to look to XHTML2 for a very near parallel example."
  432. # [16:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan: curiously, the bg image doesn't zoom in Firefox. So SVG is not Scalable? :-)
  433. # [16:29] <hsivonen> XHTML2 totally hasn't crossed The Chasm
  434. # [16:29] <hsivonen> (HTML5 hasn't either)
  435. # [16:31] <annevk> But why XHTML2 is a parallel example is beyond me. (Although it seems that the XHTML2 WG does want to make it more in line in some way. E.g. by using the same namespace and by allowing people to use text/html as media type. (Not sure if the XHTML2 WG decided to do that, but various WG members have suggested as much.))
  436. # [16:32] <webben_> annevk: I think the parallel is authors won't adopt XHTML2 because it doesn't work in IE; he's saying the new elements mean HTML5 won't work in IE and that therefore authors won't use HTML5 either.
  437. # [16:33] <webben_> same with CSS.
  438. # [16:33] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
  439. # [16:34] * Quits: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com) (Client Quit)
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  441. # [16:35] <annevk> that I can agree with
  442. # [16:35] <annevk> although some set of authors have been pushing IE by including scripted workarounds, etc.
  443. # [16:35] <webben_> Yep. That set of authors should be fine with HTML5 too.
  444. # [16:36] <hsivonen> what we need is authors using CSS features that IE doesn't support and then we need people to oversee how sites looks in Other Browsers
  445. # [16:36] <webben_> oversee?
  446. # [16:36] <webben_> you mean over people's shoulders?
  447. # [16:36] <annevk> and the theory is that if we use attributes at least the things that do not have much behavior but just layout effects could be made to work in IE?
  448. # [16:36] <hsivonen> webben_: yes
  449. # [16:37] <webben_> annevk: Yes.
  450. # [16:37] <webben_> annevk: Well, IE7.
  451. # [16:37] <hsivonen> webben_: because putting a "best viewed" conditional comment taunt would be annoying
  452. # [16:37] <Lachy> I think I'm going to need to write a detailed response to that ALA article to explain why we're introducing new elements and how we came up with the set we did, if I can find the time to do it.
  453. # [16:38] <Lachy> and also explain why using attributes like John proposed is a bad idea
  454. # [16:38] <hsivonen> Lachy: and perhaps publish in on ALA to generate a twitter storm in the other direction :-)
  455. # [16:38] <Lachy> yep
  456. # [16:38] <webben_> since div[section] or div[role=section] or whatever will only work in IE7
  457. # [16:39] <webben_> I guess you could use <div section class="section"> for IE6 support.
  458. # [16:39] <webben_> though that's getting pretty verbose!
  459. # [16:39] <Lachy> Does anyone else find it ironic that he complains about the new elements not working in IE6 without a JavaScript based hack, and then proposes an alternative solution using attributes and attribute selectors that also doesn't work in IE6 without a much more complicated JS hack (like Dean Edward's IE7 script)
  460. # [16:42] <webben_> Yes.
  461. # [16:43] <webben_> I guess it depends on how you assess the importance of IE6 support.
  462. # [16:43] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  463. # [16:44] <webben_> well, IE6 -JS support.
  464. # [16:45] <zcorpan> in the comment annevk pointed to he says "My argument is that we simply can’t ignore IE6 and backwards compatibility more generally..."
  465. # [16:46] <annevk> yeah, which is weird, since it has always been our goal that features are implementable in IE
  466. # [16:46] <annevk> though more recently some advanced stuff has been added because the IE Team is back in the game
  467. # [16:47] <webben_> anybody know off-hand how IE8 RC1 handles <section> ... can we style it?
  468. # [16:47] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  470. # [16:48] <annevk> webben_, if you use the createElement hack, yes
  471. # [16:48] <annevk> webben_, from what I've heard anyway
  472. # [16:49] <zcorpan> yep
  473. # [16:49] <webben_> Anyone chatted to them about fixing that so it works without JS?
  474. # [16:49] <hsivonen> I take it that Windows 7 beta includes a newer IE than IE8b2?
  475. # [16:49] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  476. # [16:50] <hsivonen> it seems that the blog where the download is supposed to get announced has melted
  477. # [16:50] <gsnedders> hsivonen: yes
  478. # [16:50] * dave_levin_ is now known as dave_levin
  479. # [16:50] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think it includes the beta that, um, "beta testers" got a while back
  480. # [16:50] <gsnedders> hsivonen: The link was meant to be on <http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/default.aspx>
  481. # [16:50] <jgraham> webben_: My informal understanding is that it is too late in the IE8 release cycle for substantial changes at this stage
  482. # [16:51] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Nothing there has changed
  483. # [16:51] <gsnedders> webben_, jgraham: Yeah, cwilso was saying as much at TPAC w.r.t other things
  484. # [16:51] <hsivonen> I wonder how many people will get trojaned when the download quota of Windows 7 beta is up those who didn't get it seek illicit copies
  485. # [16:52] <gsnedders> hsivonen: It was meant to be released afternoon PST
  486. # [16:52] <gsnedders> hsivonen: So it isn't even the right time yet
  487. # [16:52] <jgraham> gsnedders: BTW I think BenMillard was at home but has somewhat offset hours to the rest of the population
  488. # [16:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: Sounds possible.
  489. # [16:53] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228077239.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
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  492. # [16:55] * rubys can't wait to see how his blog looks like on the new ie8
  493. # [16:56] <jgraham> hsivonen: What is "The Chasm"?
  494. # [16:56] <zcorpan> rubys: want a screenshot?
  495. # [16:56] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm
  496. # [16:57] <rubys> zcorpan: which ie8?
  497. # [16:57] <zcorpan> rubys: RC1
  498. # [16:57] <zcorpan> rubys: i think it's the same as in windows 7
  499. # [16:57] <zcorpan> windows 7 beta
  500. # [16:57] <rubys> sure, I'd like to see a screenshot
  501. # [16:58] <zcorpan> of http://intertwingly.net/blog/ ?
  502. # [16:58] * gsnedders was under the impression there wasn't a RC1 yet, that the current builds are just from the RC1 branch
  503. # [16:58] <rubys> sure
  504. # [16:58] <jgraham> hsivonen: "Adoption of continuous innovations (that do not force a significant change of behavior by the customer) are still best described by the original Technology adoption lifecycle"
  505. # [16:59] <smedero> gsnedders: they shipped RC1 to a small group of microsoft partners.
  506. # [16:59] <jgraham> That is a HTML5 goal
  507. # [16:59] <smedero> not through the more public beta group
  508. # [16:59] <jgraham> So if we have succeeded we shouldn't ned to cross the chasm
  509. # [16:59] <gsnedders> smedero: My impression was that that was not actually RC1 but just from the RC1 branch
  510. # [16:59] <zcorpan> rubys: http://simon.html5.org/dump/sam-ruby-ie8rc1.PNG
  511. # [17:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: true. let's see if authors think it's continuous
  512. # [17:00] <rubys> that looks much improved. Significant omission being the nav bar.
  513. # [17:01] <rubys> can't wait to play with it myself to see if the javascript workaround for unknown elements is still required and to see if I can get the navbar back.
  514. # [17:01] <hsivonen> oh. nice. span is now allowed on both col and colgroup
  515. # [17:01] <gsnedders> rubys: It is
  516. # [17:02] <rubys> odd that only the first <hr> is shown, and that the number of comments isn't right aligned.
  517. # [17:02] <zcorpan> rubys: the workaround is still required
  518. # [17:02] <rubys> the workaround didn't work for ie8 beta2
  519. # [17:02] <zcorpan> it works now
  520. # [17:03] <Philip`> The workaround worked for parsing, just not for CSS
  521. # [17:03] <gsnedders> rubys: It works now
  522. # [17:03] <Philip`> but now it works for CSS too, so that's okay
  523. # [17:06] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  524. # [17:08] <hsivonen> validator.nu goes down for kernel update
  525. # [17:09] <zcorpan> rubys: depending on the user's settings however your page could be as broken as it is in ie7
  526. # [17:10] <hsivonen> oh great. the validator.nu process didn't restart properly...
  527. # [17:10] <rubys> if my page is valid and you can actually read the text and navigate in IE, I consider that a victory.
  528. # [17:11] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  529. # [17:12] <hsivonen> it seems that my clever deployment automation broke automatic recovery from reboot...
  530. # [17:12] <gsnedders> I had all my content disappear in IE7 adding document.createElement("header"). It's quite funny.
  531. # [17:13] <hsivonen> back up
  532. # [17:14] * rubys takes a step backwards and awaits further instruction
  533. # [17:18] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-20fb02090194d613)
  534. # [17:20] <gsnedders> It appears the only way I can get my website to look how I want it without bloating the markup is css3-layout. Yay.
  535. # [17:21] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  536. # [17:22] <Philip`> Is bloating the stylesheets any better than bloating the markup?
  537. # [17:24] <hsivonen> html5.validator.nu goes down for kernel update
  538. # [17:24] <gsnedders> Philip`: It means I'm not bloating semantic markup with stuff purely for presentational purposes
  539. # [17:25] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why is that good?
  540. # [17:25] <jgraham> gsnedders: Who is consuming the semantics of your web page
  541. # [17:25] <gsnedders> Nobody :P
  542. # [17:25] <Philip`> So you're just wasting your time? :-)
  543. # [17:25] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  544. # [17:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: it presentation of structure and bloat
  545. # [17:25] <gsnedders> Of course :)
  546. # [17:26] <hsivonen> html5.validator.nu is taking distressingly long to boot...
  547. # [17:26] <Philip`> hsivonen: I can't work out what that sentence means
  548. # [17:26] <hsivonen> oops
  549. # [17:26] <hsivonen> Philip`: s/presentation/separation/
  550. # [17:27] <hsivonen> so many buzzwords
  551. # [17:27] <Philip`> Ah
  552. # [17:31] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-136-52-180.range86-136.btcentralplus.com) (Client Quit)
  553. # [17:31] <jgraham> gsnedders: pragmatically CSS is harder to understand than HTML so you are better off having complexity in the HTML than in the CSS</devils advocate>
  554. # [17:32] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-136-52-180.range86-136.btcentralplus.com)
  555. # [17:33] <jgraham> gsnedders: See the thing I posted in the gap
  556. # [17:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: But CSS is cooler than HTML.
  557. # [17:34] <jgraham> Wow, you have a screwed up definition of cool
  558. # [17:35] <gsnedders> :P
  559. # [17:36] <gsnedders> masochism ftw! :P
  560. # [17:36] <gsnedders> (therefore, CSS ftw! :P)
  561. # [17:37] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  562. # [17:41] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like html5.validator.nu isn't coming back up
  563. # [17:42] * Parts: hallvors (n=hallvord@softbank221089079197.bbtec.net)
  564. # [17:43] <hsivonen> still trying some things before changing the DNS to plan B, because reversing that solution will take time
  565. # [17:43] <hsivonen> actually, I guess I'd better do that immediately anyway
  566. # [17:44] <hsivonen> ok. DNS for html5.validator.nu is being updated to point to the other server
  567. # [17:46] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  568. # [17:46] <hsivonen> it could be that Gandi is relocating Xen images upon reboot and doing it *really* slowly this time
  569. # [17:48] * Quits: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com) ("Leaving.")
  570. # [17:49] <Philip`> http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/presto211/canvas/index.dml - "<canvas width="150" height="200"> <canvas> element not supported.</canvas>"
  571. # [17:49] <Philip`> That's not going to work so well
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  575. # [17:57] <hsivonen> I can't figure anything more that I could do to bring html5.validator.nu faster than it takes to update DNS :-(
  576. # [17:57] <hsivonen> sorry about the inconvenience
  577. # [17:59] * hsivonen doesn't the feeling of powerlessness when a VM in a datacenter far away breaks
  578. # [17:59] <hsivonen> *doesn't like
  579. # [18:00] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
  580. # [18:01] <hsivonen> whoa. now the server is up but the management UI thinks it isn't
  581. # [18:01] <jgraham> the figures in http://blog.whatwg.org/supporting-new-elements-in-ie look really ugly in Opera and Firefox
  582. # [18:05] <hsivonen> whee! html5.validator.nu is back up
  583. # [18:05] <hsivonen> I wonder if the UI is still trying to stop it...
  584. # [18:11] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  585. # [18:14] <hsivonen> oh. great. now Gandi stopped the VM
  586. # [18:15] <hsivonen> whoa. they estimate a boot time of 9 minutes!
  587. # [18:16] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
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  590. # [18:18] * aroben|away is now known as aroben|lunch
  591. # [18:32] * webben_ is now known as webben
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  595. # [18:46] <gsnedders> is there anyway to float around absolutely positioned element?
  596. # [18:46] <gsnedders> s/around/around an/
  597. # [18:48] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  598. # [18:49] <Dashiva> Use relative positioning instead?
  599. # [18:50] <gsnedders> My whole design relies upon it being absolute.
  600. # [18:50] * gsnedders hacks away at it some more to remove the need
  601. # [18:51] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
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  603. # [18:52] <hsivonen> 37 minutes to boot the Xen VM at Gandi
  604. # [18:52] <hsivonen> previously 1 minute...
  605. # [18:53] <hsivonen> anyway, html5.validator.nu is now back
  606. # [18:53] <hsivonen> sorry about the inconvenience
  607. # [18:53] <hsivonen> deployment of new code has to wait to another day
  608. # [18:57] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  609. # [18:59] * Quits: webben (n=webben@91.85.203.185) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  610. # [19:12] <gsnedders> Damned CSS being designed to be able to be applied iterating over a tree.
  611. # [19:13] * gsnedders gives in and adds a class attribute
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  613. # [19:16] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-5682cc2a1623dfad)
  614. # [19:23] <gsnedders> I've just said the stupidest thing ever on #css! That div and span ideally should never be used without attributes that have semantic meaning!
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  617. # [19:31] <gsnedders> Heh. Now I'm getting ignored. Fun.
  618. # [19:32] * ap is now known as ap|away
  619. # [19:32] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.186)
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  624. # [19:41] * gsnedders is just about holding back from just trolling now
  625. # [19:41] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-177-3.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  626. # [19:47] <jcranmer> gsnedders: well, it could be worse
  627. # [19:47] <jcranmer> you could be advocating for use of <font>
  628. # [19:52] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-20fb02090194d613)
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  630. # [19:54] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  631. # [19:54] <jcranmer> mmm, I probably shouldn't be discussing stuff on the W3C CSS mailing list here
  632. # [19:54] <jcranmer> but Mr. Schmid's proposals are just... o_O
  633. # [19:54] <gsnedders> jcranmer: We discuss everything here, though :P
  634. # [19:54] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  635. # [19:55] <jcranmer> "Don't use rem, use em of root"
  636. # [19:55] <gsnedders> no, "em of :root"
  637. # [19:55] <jcranmer> because we all know that's wonderful to write a CSS parser for..
  638. # [19:55] <jcranmer> oh right, it's a selector
  639. # [19:56] <jcranmer> ambiguous parses FTW!
  640. # [19:56] <gsnedders> Obviously.
  641. # [19:59] <jcranmer> font: 5 em of .water p
  642. # [20:00] <jcranmer> is it 5 "em of .water p" or 5 "em of .water" with a font-family of p?
  643. # [20:01] <gsnedders> :D
  644. # [20:02] <gsnedders> Win7 Beta is available if you manage to not get "Server Not Available"
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  662. # [21:40] <Hixie> annevk: appropriate mailing list right now is whatwg or public-html; that i-d is literally generated automatically from the html5 source document
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  673. # [22:26] <Hixie> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-abarth-mime-sniff-00.txt
  674. # [22:26] <Hixie> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-01.txt
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  676. # [22:35] <Hixie> holy crap editing an RFC is expensive
  677. # [22:35] <Hixie> https://www.ietf.org/registration/ietf74/ietfreg.py
  678. # [22:35] <Hixie> that's crazy talk
  679. # [22:36] <Hixie> and people say the _w3c_ is pay-to-play!
  680. # [22:39] <takkaria> this is to be an editor?
  681. # [22:40] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) ("Leaving")
  682. # [22:41] <Hixie> well to form a working group
  683. # [22:41] <Hixie> that can only happen at one of these face-to-face meetings apparently
  684. # [22:43] <takkaria> nice
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  687. # [23:04] * Joins: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  688. # [23:05] * ap|away is now known as ap
  689. # [23:08] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  690. # [23:08] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  691. # [23:13] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.186)
  692. # [23:28] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  693. # [23:32] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  694. # [23:33] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  695. # [23:44] * Parts: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-69-206.dynamic.amis.net)
  696. # [23:44] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/d375f00f0901091127m362cad08vc544bb9c6a8f4538@mail.gmail.com
  697. # [23:44] <Hixie> ^ people are _still_ claiming they need the profile="" attribute, despite not being able to explain why at all
  698. # [23:46] <jcranmer> the user is always right
  699. # [23:47] <Dashiva> Hixie: It's in the spec, of course they need it!
  700. # [23:47] <Dashiva> The spec is always right
  701. # [23:50] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  702. # [23:51] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.186)
  703. # Session Close: Sat Jan 10 00:00:00 2009

The end :)