/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-01-10 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Sat Jan 10 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:05] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  4. # [00:08] <gsnedders> http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/windows7/archive/2009/01/09/update-on-windows-7-beta-availability.aspx
  5. # [00:08] <gsnedders> (i.e., they've pulled it for now)
  6. # [00:10] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  7. # [00:10] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  8. # [00:16] * Quits: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.11)
  9. # [00:33] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  10. # [00:35] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  11. # [00:35] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  12. # [00:39] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  13. # [00:41] <gsnedders> Someone give me a hug.
  14. # [00:41] <smedero> bear hug or just you know, one of those ever-so-manly "buddy" hugs?
  15. # [00:42] * dave_levin hugs gsnedders and has no idea why.
  16. # [00:42] <gsnedders> smedero: a "he's crying and needs a hug" hug.
  17. # [00:42] <smedero> oh, yuck. something happen with your school admissions stuff?
  18. # [00:42] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  19. # [00:42] <gsnedders> Nope
  20. # [00:43] <gsnedders> Just in general.
  21. # [00:43] <gsnedders> Ever unfulfilled hope, even when what I hope for I ought to get.
  22. # [00:43] <gsnedders> dave_levin: Follow me on Twitter, you'll get the idea :P
  23. # [00:44] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  24. # [00:45] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  25. # [00:46] * Quits: tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  26. # [00:46] * gsnedders shouldn't turn #whatwg into #gsneddersbitchchannel
  27. # [00:49] <gsnedders> Is it bad whenever I see "flicker" I think it is spelt wrong?
  28. # [01:00] * Quits: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
  29. # [01:10] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-11-224.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  30. # [01:22] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-11-224.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("sex break")
  31. # [01:23] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  32. # [01:23] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  33. # [01:33] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-b134203b9365c76e) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  34. # [01:36] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@pia145-154.pioneernet.net)
  35. # [01:53] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.186)
  36. # [02:09] * Joins: webben (n=webben@91.85.203.185)
  37. # [02:12] * Quits: webben_ (n=webben@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  38. # [02:16] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  39. # [02:23] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  40. # [02:26] * Joins: rubys1 (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  41. # [02:27] <BenMillard> jgraham, yes I do have offset hours. I'm still in UK. Had breakfast a couple of hours ago. :)
  42. # [02:31] <rubys1> Hixie: the Atom working group was created without either myself (or, I think, Tim Bray) ever attending a meeting or paying a dime.
  43. # [02:35] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  44. # [02:36] * BenMillard thinks rubys can read logs faster than he does.
  45. # [02:37] <BenMillard> accessibility also fits this description: "Where technologies really struggle is with their adoption by mainstream users [..]" (Re: http://alistapart.com/comments/semanticsinhtml5?page=7#65)
  46. # [02:40] <BenMillard> "[...] an enormous amount of energy and resources and have still not addressed significant shortcomings in HTML." The data table headers stuff has probably cost humanity a 5-figure amount in US dollars but has addressed several shortcomings in the HTML5 of 2007.
  47. # [02:43] <BenMillard> (on class, id and rel) "[...] any semantics we layer on top of these attributes is really by tenuous convention." That is exactly the goal of distributed extensibility, isn't it? You make stuff up without spending n years going through a standards track?
  48. # [02:44] * Quits: smedero (n=smedero@pia145-154.pioneernet.net)
  49. # [02:51] <BenMillard> (Shelley Powers on supporting IE6) "But what you’re saying is most designers won’t even take the chance. Wow, must be safe to be them." It's been a non-negotiable contractual obligation in every web project I've worked on since 2005.
  50. # [02:55] <Hixie> rubys1: oh, cool, that's encouraging
  51. # [02:56] <Hixie> BenMillard: tell her, not us :-)
  52. # [02:56] <BenMillard> Hixie, if more people discuss it here today I'll add another link to here from the ALA comments.
  53. # [02:56] <BenMillard> s/another/a/
  54. # [02:59] * Joins: smedero (n=smedero@pia145-154.pioneernet.net)
  55. # [03:00] * Quits: rubys1 (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  56. # [03:00] * Quits: smedero (n=smedero@pia145-154.pioneernet.net) (Client Quit)
  57. # [03:10] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  58. # [03:11] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@75.35.230.210)
  59. # [03:13] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@75.35.230.210) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  60. # [03:13] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@75.35.230.210)
  61. # [03:16] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  62. # [03:16] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  63. # [03:30] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  64. # [03:31] * Joins: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1)
  65. # [03:37] * Joins: dimich_ (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  66. # [03:38] * Quits: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  67. # [03:40] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  68. # [03:40] * Quits: dimich_ (n=dimich@72.14.227.1) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  69. # [03:53] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  70. # [03:54] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
  71. # [03:57] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  72. # [03:58] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  73. # [03:58] * Quits: wakaba (n=wakaba@189.164.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  74. # [03:59] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@189.164.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  75. # [04:05] * Joins: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  76. # [04:13] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  77. # [04:13] * Quits: wakaba (n=wakaba@189.164.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  78. # [04:13] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@189.164.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  79. # [04:16] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  80. # [04:16] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@75.35.230.210) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  81. # [04:16] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@75.35.230.210)
  82. # [04:17] * Joins: beowulf_ (i=wiglaf@61803.mobi)
  83. # [04:17] * Quits: beowulf (i=wiglaf@61803.mobi) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  84. # [04:22] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@75.35.230.210) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  85. # [04:22] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@75.35.230.210)
  86. # [04:25] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  87. # [04:27] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@75.35.230.210)
  88. # [04:27] * Quits: wakaba (n=wakaba@189.164.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  89. # [04:28] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@189.164.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  90. # [04:49] * Quits: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  91. # [05:13] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  92. # [05:27] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  93. # [05:40] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  94. # [05:45] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  95. # [05:46] * Quits: beowulf_ (i=wiglaf@61803.mobi) (Remote closed the connection)
  96. # [05:59] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  97. # [05:59] * Quits: wakaba (n=wakaba@189.164.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  98. # [06:00] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@189.164.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  99. # [06:06] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-41-195.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  100. # [06:13] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  101. # [06:21] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  102. # [06:23] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  103. # [06:25] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  104. # [06:25] <BenMillard> IE8 UA string update: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/01/09/the-internet-explorer-8-user-agent-string-updated-edition.aspx
  105. # [06:33] <BenMillard> "We have also encountered some websites that do not function if the user-agent string is unusually long (for instance, over 128 characters)."
  106. # [06:33] <BenMillard> for Firefox 2, mine is 92 characters long: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.8.1.20) Gecko/20081217 Firefox/2.0.0.20
  107. # [06:40] * Joins: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-127-163.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  108. # [06:53] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  109. # [06:53] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  110. # [06:54] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  111. # [07:31] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  112. # [07:38] * Quits: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-41-127-163.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  113. # [07:39] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.79.246) (Remote closed the connection)
  114. # [08:24] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  115. # [09:12] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Remote closed the connection)
  116. # [09:12] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  117. # [09:22] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  118. # [09:32] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-177-3.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  119. # [09:52] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  120. # [09:54] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  121. # [09:55] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  122. # [09:55] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  123. # [09:59] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-10fdd9032badff20)
  124. # [10:08] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  125. # [10:09] * Joins: kingryan (n=ryan@71.94.83.218)
  126. # [10:14] * Quits: kingryan (n=ryan@71.94.83.218) (Client Quit)
  127. # [10:23] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  128. # [10:29] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-151-46.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  129. # [10:36] * Joins: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.11)
  130. # [10:50] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-71-199.dynamic.amis.net)
  131. # [10:58] * Joins: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-243.dynamic.amis.net)
  132. # [10:59] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  133. # [11:16] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-71-199.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  134. # [11:26] * Joins: Hish (n=chatzill@mail2.n-e-s.de)
  135. # [11:26] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-151-46.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("sex break")
  136. # [11:27] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@48.80-202-82.nextgentel.com)
  137. # [11:47] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-177-3.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  138. # [11:47] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@ip565f6edb.direct-adsl.nl) ("going back to danbri.org")
  139. # [11:47] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@ip565f6edb.direct-adsl.nl)
  140. # [12:33] * Joins: geoff_blair (n=gmb@c-71-202-162-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  141. # [12:56] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  142. # [13:04] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@ip565f6edb.direct-adsl.nl) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  143. # [13:04] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  144. # [13:04] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-83-100-138-56.karoo.KCOM.COM) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  145. # [13:04] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@cpe-069-134-123-228.nc.res.rr.com) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  146. # [13:04] * Quits: drry (n=drry@it17.opt2.point.ne.jp) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  147. # [13:04] * Quits: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  148. # [13:04] * Quits: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  149. # [13:04] * Quits: wilhelm_ (i=wilhelm@trivini.no) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  150. # [13:04] * Quits: gpy (i=gpy@193.138.219.74) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  151. # [13:05] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@ip565f6edb.direct-adsl.nl)
  152. # [13:05] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  153. # [13:05] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-83-100-138-56.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  154. # [13:05] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@cpe-069-134-123-228.nc.res.rr.com)
  155. # [13:05] * Joins: drry (n=drry@it17.opt2.point.ne.jp)
  156. # [13:05] * Joins: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  157. # [13:05] * Joins: gpy (i=gpy@193.138.219.74)
  158. # [13:05] * Joins: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl)
  159. # [13:05] * Joins: wilhelm_ (i=wilhelm@trivini.no)
  160. # [13:24] * Quits: geoff_blair (n=gmb@c-71-202-162-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("Leaving")
  161. # [13:46] * Quits: webben (n=webben@91.85.203.185) ("Lost terminal")
  162. # [13:48] * Joins: webben (n=webben@91.85.203.185)
  163. # [14:11] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  164. # [14:11] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  165. # [14:16] <hsivonen> Looks like Microsoft is behaving as if BitTorrent hadn't been invented when it comes to distributing Windows 7 beta.
  166. # [14:21] <Philip`> Maybe they're behaving as if a large number of people don't have a BitTorrent client and don't want to have to find and install and learn how to use one, and they don't want to unfairly make the beta available only to the people who already understand BitTorrent
  167. # [14:22] <hsivonen> If downloading Windows 7 beta were a killer application of BitTorrent, people would install a BitTorrent client.
  168. # [14:23] <hsivonen> One would think that the kind of people who'd install an OS beta would be able to deal with BitTorrent.
  169. # [14:23] <Philip`> Then those people will realise a week from now that they've been uploading at full speed for the past week and their ISP throttles them, and they blame Microsoft
  170. # [14:24] <Philip`> People who would install an OS beta and already know about BitTorrent would just go to http://thepiratebay.org/search/windows%207/0/7/0
  171. # [14:25] <hsivonen> in that case MS should at least publicize a cryptographic hash for a legitimate iso image
  172. # [14:27] <hsivonen> btw, is the EULA of the beta reasonable--particularly for people who might work on something that competes with an MS product?
  173. # [14:27] <gsnedders> hsivonen: The issue seems to be giving out product keys — not the downloading.
  174. # [14:28] <gsnedders> hsivonen: The ISOs are still available, and always came down at a sane speed
  175. # [14:28] <Philip`> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/aa497440.aspx quotes http://twitter.com/Ekus/statuses/1108872611 which is the same MD5 as the torrent, so at least the checksum is (temporarily) mentioned on a Microsoft web site :-)
  176. # [14:28] <Philip`> (That twit also suggests that the ISOs aren't always available at a sane speed)
  177. # [14:29] <gsnedders> It never got below 100KB/s even when everything else had completely stopped.
  178. # [14:30] <hsivonen> gsnedders: where on an MS site are the isos still available?
  179. # [14:30] <Philip`> 100KB/s sounds incredibly slow :-p
  180. # [14:30] <gsnedders> hsivonen: They aren't linked anywhere :P
  181. # [14:30] <gsnedders> hsivonen: <http://download.microsoft.com/download/6/3/3/633118BD-6C3D-45A4-B985-F0FDFFE1B021/EN/7000.0.081212-1400_client_en-us_Ultimate-GB1CULXFRE_EN_DVD.ISO> is the AMD64 English copy
  182. # [14:31] <hsivonen> thanks
  183. # [14:31] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Look on engadget's comments and the like for more URLs
  184. # [14:31] <Philip`> http://download.microsoft.com/download/6/3/3/633118BD-6C3D-45A4-B985-F0FDFFE1B021/EN/7000.0.081212-1400_client_en-us_Ultimate-GB1CULFRE_EN_DVD.ISO must be the x86 version
  185. # [14:31] <gsnedders> obviously.
  186. # [14:32] * Joins: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no)
  187. # [14:33] * Philip` decides that the only reason he'd want to test the latest version of Windows is to check application compatibility of stuff he's writing, and there's no point doing that now so he might as well wait a year until it's closer to release
  188. # [14:35] <hsivonen> I'm mainly interested in testing IE8 behavior on a non-XP system
  189. # [14:35] <hsivonen> but then I have no idea if it is worthwhile
  190. # [14:35] <hsivonen> perhaps the XP version behaves identically
  191. # [14:35] <webben> hsivonen: was it fine in parallels in the end?
  192. # [14:36] * webben would like to see it running in a parallels or vmware cage ;)
  193. # [14:36] <gsnedders> It apparently runs fine in VMWare
  194. # [14:36] <hsivonen> webben: I haven't had a chance to try yet
  195. # [14:36] <gsnedders> I don't have enough RAM to run it in VMWare without quitting everything else :P
  196. # [14:37] <hsivonen> webben: but today's Parallels update lists Windows 7 compat as a new feature
  197. # [14:37] <Philip`> hsivonen: I imagine it might differ in cases where it relies on the OS's Unicode support, and things like that
  198. # [14:37] * gsnedders needs more RAM
  199. # [14:37] <hsivonen> gsnedders: how much RAM do you have?
  200. # [14:37] <gsnedders> 2GB
  201. # [14:37] <Philip`> (but it probably ought to be the same on Win7 as on Vista)
  202. # [14:37] <gsnedders> I also tend to have a lot of things open at once.
  203. # [14:38] * gsnedders currently has 40MB free RAM
  204. # [14:38] <Philip`> "free" is a bit meaningless if it doesn't include e.g. disk buffers
  205. # [14:39] <Philip`> and the amount used by applications is a bit meaningless anyway, because maybe half of it could easily be swapped out to disk and you wouldn't even notice
  206. # [14:40] <Philip`> so I suppose all you can really do is try running VMware and see how slow everything it goes, and if it's slow then buy more RAM, and if it's not then buy more RAM anyway because RAM is cheap :-)
  207. # [14:40] <gsnedders> The problem is OS X grinds to a halt when it starts swapping all too often :(
  208. # [14:40] <gsnedders> And RAM for the MBP really has got cheap now. £35.64 for 4GB.
  209. # [14:41] * Philip` remembers the good old days when people said "wow, RAM is really cheap now at £1/GB!"
  210. # [14:41] <Philip`> Uh
  211. # [14:41] <gsnedders> :P
  212. # [14:41] <Philip`> £1/MB
  213. # [14:42] <gsnedders> Slight difference.
  214. # [14:42] <Philip`> Indeed :-)
  215. # [14:44] <virtuelv> whoah, the new google favicon is ugly
  216. # [14:46] * Joins: svl_ (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  217. # [14:47] * svl_ is now known as svl
  218. # [14:51] <Lachy> virtuelv, woah. That's even worse than the last one with the blue g
  219. # [14:51] <webben> yikes
  220. # [14:51] <Lachy> I wonder if it's possible to set a custom favicon for a website
  221. # [14:51] <virtuelv> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/googles-new-favicon.html
  222. # [14:52] <webben> I guess we'll get used to it.
  223. # [14:53] <Lachy> André Resende's original submission looks mildly better than the final icon, but still, it's not good
  224. # [14:54] <hsivonen> eww.
  225. # [14:55] <hsivonen> I agree that the original submission was better
  226. # [15:10] * Quits: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.11)
  227. # [15:35] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p1096-ipbf1904marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  228. # [15:54] <gsnedders> Oh God.
  229. # [15:54] <gsnedders> I'm looking over the Higher computing marking scheme.
  230. # [15:54] <gsnedders> "The homepage contains the title “Mel’s Website”. The title is in bold and italics. Write the HTML code required for the title. "
  231. # [15:54] <gsnedders> Answer:
  232. # [15:54] <gsnedders> "<i><b>Mel’s Website</b></i></title> OR <title><i><strong>Mel’s Website</strong></i>"
  233. # [15:55] <gsnedders> "1 mark for correct use of <i> tag"
  234. # [15:55] <gsnedders> "1 mark for correct use of <b> or <strong> tag"
  235. # [15:55] <gsnedders> "1 mark for correct nesting of tags ie <i><b> </b></i>"
  236. # [15:55] <gsnedders> "Note: nesting might be different but valid ie <b><i>Mel’s Website</i></b>"
  237. # [15:55] <gsnedders> "Ignore any “outer” tags eg <title>,<head>,<h1> etc"
  238. # [15:57] <Dashiva> Google seems to have forgotten the "looks like a g even if you don't know it's supposed to be one" requirement for the favicon :)
  239. # [15:57] <gsnedders> http://www.sqa.org.uk/sqa/files_ccc/08miComputingH.pdf FWIW
  240. # [16:04] <Philip`> "Object oriented data storage is more efficient than bitmap storage." - huh?
  241. # [16:04] <Philip`> Seems a strange mix of terminology
  242. # [16:05] <hsivonen> gsnedders: that's really sad. do the students have any recourse to contest the bogus test
  243. # [16:05] <gsnedders> hsivonen: nope
  244. # [16:06] <hsivonen> gsnedders: clearly, whoever came up with the test wasn't qualified to be a "Qualificaions Authority"
  245. # [16:06] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I think technically I could file a compliant, but it's hardly likely to make any diference
  246. # [16:06] <gsnedders> (needless to say, I still got an A, which is somewhat amazing with that marking scheme)
  247. # [16:07] <hsivonen> gsnedders: some reason in there, then
  248. # [16:07] <gsnedders> (There again, getting 28.5% (out of a possible 30% of the overall grade) in the coursework probably helped)
  249. # [16:21] * Philip` buys a DVD which, instead of having one of those annoying anti-piracy adverts that tries hard to make you feel guilty even though you've just paid for the movie, has a leaflet saying "Nice One! Thanks for buying this genuine DVD. We hope you enjoy it. Obviously you're not a Knock-Off Nigel, but rather the kind of person who generally does the right thing."
  250. # [16:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: "2009-00-07" is not a date, yet is used in the annotations
  251. # [16:25] <Dashiva> Philip`: The torrent includes a scan of that leaflet
  252. # [16:31] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  253. # [16:58] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@226.Red-80-33-141.staticIP.rima-tde.net)
  254. # [16:59] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@226.Red-80-33-141.staticIP.rima-tde.net) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  255. # [17:17] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.78.215)
  256. # [17:30] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  257. # [18:13] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@75.35.230.210)
  258. # [18:14] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  259. # [18:33] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@75.35.230.210)
  260. # [18:33] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@75.35.230.210) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  261. # [18:35] * Quits: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@75.35.230.210) (Client Quit)
  262. # [18:37] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  263. # [18:47] * Joins: webben_ (n=webben@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com)
  264. # [19:03] * Quits: webben (n=webben@91.85.203.185) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  265. # [19:10] <Lachy> Just watched the Colbert interview with Lessig. http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/01/larry-lessig-colbert-report - I can't believe Colbert is such an idiot
  266. # [19:11] <Philip`> He's not, he just plays one on TV
  267. # [19:12] <Lachy> although I don't think Lessig managed to get his message across very well in the interview either, I blame Colbert for having no clue what he was talking about and not letting Lessig actually explain it clearly
  268. # [19:31] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  269. # [19:39] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  270. # [19:40] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p1096-ipbf1904marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  271. # [19:51] * gsnedders wants a :first-word selector
  272. # [19:52] <Philip`> What's a word?
  273. # [19:52] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  274. # [19:53] * gsnedders shrugs
  275. # [19:53] * gsnedders notes CSS 2.1 has word-spacing
  276. # [19:55] <Philip`> What problem would :first-word solve, that <span class="first-word"> couldn't?
  277. # [19:55] <gsnedders> No span! :P
  278. # [19:55] <Philip`> What practical problem would :first-word solve, that <span class="first-word"> couldn't?
  279. # [19:56] <gsnedders> None
  280. # [19:56] <gsnedders> :)
  281. # [20:11] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Doesn't first-word already exist?
  282. # [20:11] <Dashiva> Ah, only first-letter and first-line
  283. # [20:14] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@75.35.230.210)
  284. # [20:21] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-177-3.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  285. # [20:23] * Joins: hdh0 (n=hdh@118.71.78.215)
  286. # [20:40] * Quits: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.78.215) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  287. # [20:46] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-79-165.dynamic.amis.net)
  288. # [20:49] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@75.35.230.210)
  289. # [20:54] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Nick collision from services.)
  290. # [20:54] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  291. # [20:55] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Client Quit)
  292. # [20:56] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  293. # [20:56] * Quits: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  294. # [20:56] * Quits: wilhelm_ (i=wilhelm@trivini.no) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  295. # [20:56] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  296. # [20:56] * Quits: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  297. # [20:56] * Quits: gpy (i=gpy@193.138.219.74) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  298. # [20:56] * Quits: drry (n=drry@it17.opt2.point.ne.jp) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  299. # [20:56] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@ip565f6edb.direct-adsl.nl) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  300. # [20:56] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@cpe-069-134-123-228.nc.res.rr.com) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  301. # [20:56] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-83-100-138-56.karoo.KCOM.COM) (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  302. # [20:57] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  303. # [20:57] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  304. # [20:57] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@ip565f6edb.direct-adsl.nl)
  305. # [20:57] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  306. # [20:57] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@adsl-83-100-138-56.karoo.KCOM.COM)
  307. # [20:57] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@cpe-069-134-123-228.nc.res.rr.com)
  308. # [20:57] * Joins: drry (n=drry@it17.opt2.point.ne.jp)
  309. # [20:57] * Joins: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  310. # [20:57] * Joins: gpy (i=gpy@193.138.219.74)
  311. # [20:57] * Joins: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl)
  312. # [20:57] * Joins: wilhelm_ (i=wilhelm@trivini.no)
  313. # [20:57] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-177-3.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  314. # [20:59] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@226.Red-80-33-141.staticIP.rima-tde.net)
  315. # [20:59] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@226.Red-80-33-141.staticIP.rima-tde.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  316. # [21:02] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-243.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  317. # [21:09] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  318. # [21:12] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Success)
  319. # [21:12] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  320. # [21:13] * Joins: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.10)
  321. # [21:16] * Joins: scotfl (n=scotfl@S0106001b114f914a.ss.shawcable.net)
  322. # [21:17] * Quits: scotfl (n=scotfl@S0106001b114f914a.ss.shawcable.net) (Client Quit)
  323. # [21:18] * Joins: scotfl (n=scotfl@S0106001b114f914a.ss.shawcable.net)
  324. # [21:39] <gsnedders> Anyone know anything about a11y of right-aligned ltr text?
  325. # [22:06] * Joins: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  326. # [22:10] <BenMillard> Dashiva, it's also in the wrong case (the Google logo uses big G)
  327. # [22:11] <gsnedders> BenMillard: See the final thing said before you joined
  328. # [22:11] <BenMillard> gsnedders, in a sec
  329. # [22:12] <BenMillard> the Lucian E. Marin one looks excellent, to me: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7ZYqYi4xigk/SWfBJtH93_I/AAAAAAAACOk/TSM_XMc3eoI/s1600-h/Favicon_Lucian.png
  330. # [22:14] <Philip`> BenMillard: The Google logo uses a little g too
  331. # [22:14] <BenMillard> Philip`, but not the initial G, afaict.
  332. # [22:15] * gsnedders notes Philip` never said that the first letter wasn't uppercase
  333. # [22:16] <BenMillard> gsnedders, depends how much you're aligning and how important it is.
  334. # [22:16] <BenMillard> gsnedders, when attributing a big quote to a source, right-aligning the source is fine
  335. # [22:17] <BenMillard> but right-aligning your main content would be terrible as it is incompatible with F-shaped reading pattern
  336. # [22:17] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Take a look at <http://secret.gsnedders.com/g6/home.html> in a browser with good css3-selectors support
  337. # [22:17] * Philip` wonders why Google still has fairly prominent links to http://www.google.com/intl/en/customlogos.html which is clearly ancient because the logos are incredibly ugly
  338. # [22:18] <gsnedders> BenMillard: (i..e, a recent WebKit browser, or Opera 9.5+)
  339. # [22:18] <BenMillard> gsnedders, using Opera 9.63 I see main content right-aligned, which is bad for sighted users.
  340. # [22:18] <gsnedders> BenMillard: (where recent means the same as Saf3.2)
  341. # [22:18] <gsnedders> BenMillard: My doubt was how much content is too much :)
  342. # [22:18] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I'd say more than 1 line across the page is too much, as a general rule
  343. # [22:19] <BenMillard> because it's the ragged left position of wrapped lines which makes it hard to scan
  344. # [22:19] <BenMillard> it's especially fiddly for screen magnifier users, since they might be at 10x zoom or even more
  345. # [22:20] <BenMillard> possibly makes life harder for certain forms of dyslexia where gaps and patterns in the text cause severe distraction
  346. # [22:20] <Philip`> That font has no antialiasing :-(
  347. # [22:20] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Any design suggestions for that which preserve the symmetry without making it annoying to read?
  348. # [22:21] <Philip`> gsnedders: Swap the left and right sides, since the current right only has very short paragraphs?
  349. # [22:22] <BenMillard> gsnedders, unless you mirror the text on one side it's not symmetrical anyway. :) I'd say left-align both sides of content so people can read what you wrote.
  350. # [22:22] <BenMillard> I guess right-aligning poems is OK, since the lines are short and curious arrangement can be used for artistic expression
  351. # [22:24] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Then the line line looks silly
  352. # [22:24] <gsnedders> BenMillard: And justified text is equally problematic
  353. # [22:24] <gsnedders> BenMillard: What about the alignment of crazy modern poetry like http://pastebin.ca/1305375?
  354. # [22:25] <BenMillard> gsnedders, artistic license.
  355. # [22:25] <gsnedders> :)
  356. # [22:26] <Philip`> Then you have problems with needed fixed-width fonts, before worrying about alignment
  357. # [22:26] <Philip`> s/needed/needing/
  358. # [22:27] * gsnedders could also hide away all the introspection stuff and simplify everything
  359. # [22:27] <BenMillard> Philip`, in my experience old mobiles have no fixed-width fonts, but that's all.
  360. # [22:28] <Philip`> gsnedders: Or you could interleave everything, rather than putting them in separate columns
  361. # [22:28] * Joins: svl_ (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  362. # [22:28] * gsnedders is trying to kill off all this introspection :P
  363. # [22:28] <Philip`> and maybe use some colour or offset or font or something to distinguish them
  364. # [22:28] <BenMillard> like footsteps down the page, perhaps
  365. # [22:29] * svl_ is now known as svl
  366. # [22:30] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  367. # [22:34] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@48.80-202-82.nextgentel.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  368. # [22:39] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  369. # [22:44] * Parts: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  370. # [22:45] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@48.80-202-82.nextgentel.com)
  371. # [22:54] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@207-118-28-70.dyn.centurytel.net)
  372. # [23:04] * Quits: webben_ (n=webben@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) ("Lost terminal")
  373. # [23:05] * Quits: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.10)
  374. # [23:07] * Joins: webben (n=webben@91.85.203.185)
  375. # [23:24] * Parts: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-79-165.dynamic.amis.net)
  376. # [23:25] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  377. # [23:36] * Joins: weinig__ (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  378. # [23:40] * Joins: weinig___ (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  379. # [23:41] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  380. # [23:43] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  381. # [23:43] * Quits: weinig__ (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  382. # [23:43] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  383. # [23:43] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  384. # [23:53] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  385. # Session Close: Sun Jan 11 00:00:00 2009

The end :)