/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-01-18 / end

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  47. # [08:54] <zcorpan> morning
  48. # [09:32] <Hixie> morning
  49. # [09:40] <hallvors> afternoon. whatever. :)
  50. # [09:40] <Hixie> anyone remember what the url for Lachy's live-dom-viewer-like tool is?
  51. # [09:42] <Lachy> http://html5.lachy.id.au/beta/
  52. # [09:47] <Hixie> thanks
  53. # [09:47] <Hixie> what does the MIME type field do in that?
  54. # [09:48] <Lachy> nothing yet
  55. # [09:48] <Hixie> ah ok
  56. # [09:49] <Lachy> it will eventually serve the same purpose as the MIME type field on this page http://html5.lachy.id.au/
  57. # [09:50] <Hixie> so we don't have a live dom viewer for xml yet, right?
  58. # [09:51] <Lachy> no. I tried to make one, but had difficulty getting it to function properly. I can't remember exactly what the problems were
  59. # [09:52] <Hixie> yeah i seem to recall the same
  60. # [09:54] * zcorpan is confused why document.lastChild.lastChild isn't a text node in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/xmlns-dom.xhtml
  61. # [09:55] <zcorpan> oh
  62. # [09:55] <zcorpan> the script runs during parsing
  63. # [09:58] * Lachy is contemplating whether to get up and go skiing for the first time this season, or be lazy and stay home
  64. # [10:02] <Lachy> there's no real surprises in this list. It's basically the same stuff people have been asking for, for several years now http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/wasp-feedback-2008
  65. # [10:04] <Lachy> this one is partially addressed by <style scoped> already, but the ability to reset styles wouldn't work too well http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/wasp-feedback-2008#scoped-style
  66. # [10:05] <Lachy> http://www.webstandards.org/2009/01/16/css-working-group-feeds-back-to-wasp/
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  69. # [10:21] <Lachy> oh dear. The trains to the ski slope don't run frequently enough today to be worth going :-( It'll be after midday before I arrive
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  72. # [10:35] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/2009JanMar/0018.html are the xhtml2 wg even working on xhtml2 anymore? i haven't seen them mention it in status reports in months
  73. # [10:37] <BenMillard> Hixie, Member links for the lose. :(
  74. # [10:38] <Lachy> BenMillard, it looks like a status report about their specs, except that it omits XHTML2
  75. # [10:40] <zcorpan> maybe xhtml2 is perfect so no more work needs to be done
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  77. # [10:43] <zcorpan> discussion about html5 in general has gone up lately but the forums are dead
  78. # [10:43] <zcorpan> wonder why
  79. # [10:44] <BenMillard> Lachy, cheers. Do they currently have a charter? I could only find this: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/XHTML2-WG-charter
  80. # [10:45] <BenMillard> (linked to in the first paragraph of their homepage: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/)
  81. # [10:45] <Lachy> that is their current charter
  82. # [10:46] <BenMillard> Lachy, oh I misread 2009 as 2008. :P
  83. # [10:48] <BenMillard> 2.3 Milestones seems out of date. "XHTML 2.0" to become "REC" in "Sep 2008"?
  84. # [10:49] <Lachy> LOL
  85. # [10:49] <Lachy> I wonder where they intend to find implementations?
  86. # [10:50] <zcorpan> Lachy: much of xhtml2 already works in browsers so maybe that's enough to label it as a rec
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  93. # [11:23] <hsivonen> Lachy: do the implementations need to be browsers? can they be a schema that validates XHTML2 and an XSLT transform that produces XHTML2?
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  96. # [11:48] <Lachy> hsivonen, I would hope there would be some implementations designed for end users as well, not just developer tools
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  100. # [11:57] <deane> I can not understand how they were allowed to switch from the xhtml2 namespace to the same namespace (xhtml) that we are using, we were using it first. When html5 came to the W3C it was using the xhtml namespace, and xhtml2 had it's own namespace, I can't see how they can just change to the same one as us like that.
  101. # [11:59] <Philip`> I thought XHTML2 had switched to the xhtml namespace (in (unpublished?) drafts) before HTML5 was in the W3C
  102. # [11:59] <hsivonen> deane: the same way they can write a de facto text/html-targeted spec that relies on stuff like xmlns:dc
  103. # [12:08] <deane> hsivonen: And the same way that they can publish a document about what mime types are ligit for xhtml even though they are not the only ones working on xhtml specs and this bogus document contradicts the HTML5 spec. Then when someone complains about it, they just go ahead and publish the document anyway.
  104. # [12:10] <hsivonen> deane: if you have the cycles, you could file Formal Objections, I suppose
  105. # [12:22] <deane> hsivonen: "...stuff like xmlns:dc" yeah, but instead of acknowledging that these people aren't writting specs for the real web, it appears that Shelley and others think it is simply the html5 communitie's fault for not having the forsight/insight/intelligence to put distributed extensibility into text/html
  106. # [12:24] <Lachy> deane, where/when did the XHTML2 WG announce that they have actually changed the namespace? The current draft, published in 2006, still uses the other ns
  107. # [12:25] <BenMillard> Lachy, I noticed it in a diff-marked Wikipedia page hsivonen linked this channel to a while back...not sure of official documents, though.
  108. # [12:26] <Lachy> the last I heard about the NS issue was that they were intending to do so, but that was well before we had all the discussion about it on public-html
  109. # [12:27] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/conformance.html
  110. # [12:27] <Philip`> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en"
  111. # [12:27] <Philip`> xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance"
  112. # [12:27] <Philip`> xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
  113. # [12:27] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/SCHEMA/xhtml2.xsd"
  114. # [12:28] <Philip`> (It's so pretty)
  115. # [12:28] <hsivonen> http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/1649
  116. # [12:29] <deane> Lachy, http://www.w3.org/2007/10/03-xhtml-minutes.html
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  118. # [12:34] <Lachy> hsivonen, re the RDFa namespace and DOM discussion, that seems to be roughly the same issues that aria encountered when they wanted to add in namespace prefixed attributes and values
  119. # [12:34] <deane> Lachy: Shane's latest "Editor's Draft" http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml2-20090109/ the "public draft" hasn't been updated since 2006
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  121. # [12:37] <Lachy> I wish there were a latest editors draft link for XHTML2, instead of just dated links
  122. # [12:37] <Lachy> where does the xhtml2 group post the links to the editors drafts?
  123. # [12:39] * zcorpan wonders what happened with this week in html5
  124. # [12:43] <deane> Lachy: in the "XHTML Document Development Area" http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/
  125. # [12:47] <BenMillard> hsivonen, I had worries along those lines about Geocities in 1998 and freewebs in 2000. Those are what eventually compelled me to buy hosting from someone whose home phone number I have and who sends me an Xmas card each year. :)
  126. # [12:48] <BenMillard> hsivonen, it's also one reason my has no comments system; the responsibility of looking after other people's content is daunting.
  127. # [12:48] <BenMillard> s/my has/my website has/
  128. # [12:51] <Lachy> that's why I keep a copy of all my data locally and have a weekly backup of my blog database emailed to me
  129. # [12:52] <Lachy> although there was one occasion that I lost a number of irreplacable files
  130. # [12:53] <Lachy> not too many though
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  136. # [13:51] <gsnedders> My hands are cold :(
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  140. # [15:51] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  141. # [15:51] * Set by Hixie on Thu Oct 23 14:38:15
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  145. # [17:51] * Topic is 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  146. # [17:51] * Set by Hixie on Thu Oct 23 14:38:15
  147. # [17:52] <Philip`> Incrementally parsing XML doesn't seem a particularly weird thing, since that's kind of what SAX is for
  148. # [17:52] <Philip`> and it's kind of obvious how it should work even if nobody has written a proper detailed spec
  149. # [17:53] <Philip`> (and the problem is just that implementors don't understand XML and introduce bugs by e.g. failing to use a proper namespace-aware serialiser)
  150. # [17:57] <Lachy> oh, this comment from Travis is a relief http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/01/gettters-setters#comment-6694
  151. # [17:57] <Lachy> but there's still no mention of __defineGetter__ and __defineSetter__ in IE, which could be a problem
  152. # [18:00] <zcorpan> Lachy: maybe they still aren't used enough in the wild that one could get away with not supporting them
  153. # [18:02] * myakura heard that javascript:alert(document.body.__defineGetter__); returns undefined in the pre-RC build (and it was [native code] in beta2)
  154. # [18:02] <zcorpan> myakura: seems about right
  155. # [18:06] <Lachy> myakura, it's returning undefined for me in RC1
  156. # [18:06] <myakura> :(
  157. # [18:08] <Lachy> it really sucks that the ECMA spec is in PDF instead of HTML :-(
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  161. # [18:15] <annevk> Lachy, no kidding
  162. # [18:18] <Lachy> it sucks even more that they've produced the PDF with revision tracking turned on, making it harder to read
  163. # [18:18] <zcorpan> annevk: the logo seems hard to redo in svg - it just becomes smudgy
  164. # [18:19] <annevk> it's not really vectorlike
  165. # [18:19] <Philip`> Combine a vector outline with a bitmap texture?
  166. # [18:19] <annevk> unless you use a filter or something I suppose
  167. # [18:20] <annevk> what Philip` said
  168. # [18:21] <annevk> hehe, "SVG SUCKS", so true
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  170. # [18:25] <zcorpan> annevk: you could use the webfont for the "WEBLOG 4.2" part
  171. # [18:27] <annevk> would that be an improvement?
  172. # [18:27] <annevk> i guess it would
  173. # [18:29] <annevk> I wonder if the SVG can be further simplified
  174. # [18:29] <Philip`> Shouldn't it be at least WEBLOG 4.3 by now?
  175. # [18:30] <annevk> it's not an actual version number
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  178. # [18:39] <jcranmer> o_O
  179. # [18:40] <jcranmer> what is so hard about creating viable use cases for RDFa?
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  181. # [18:43] <Philip`> jcranmer: It's designed to satisfy a large number of classes of use cases, and if you only focus on a dozen individual cases then you'll probably come up with a dozen solutions that are simpler than RDFa for those use cases but that are useless for the million other use cases
  182. # [18:44] <gsnedders> annevk: Shouldn't it be WEBLOG 5?
  183. # [18:45] <jcranmer> Philip`: even so, everyone always acts as if there's no reason why RDFa shouldn't just be included
  184. # [18:46] <Philip`> so the concept of analysing use cases is fundamentally flawed, as it can't come up with globally optimal solutions that have the best overall cost-per-use-case
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  186. # [18:51] <takkaria> RDFa is a globally optimal solution? :)
  187. # [18:52] <annevk> gsnedders, not a version number
  188. # [18:52] <gsnedders> annevk: But 5 > *.
  189. # [18:52] <Philip`> takkaria: It may or may not be, but we won't be able to determine that if we only look at individual use cases :-)
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  191. # [19:06] <zcorpan> annevk: http://simon.html5.org/dump/logo.svg
  192. # [19:07] <zcorpan> it looks worse, double the size, but at least it's scalable
  193. # [19:09] <annevk> hmm, the non-SVG version is still nicer
  194. # [19:09] <annevk> thanks though :)
  195. # [19:09] <zcorpan> welcome :)
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  197. # [19:10] <zcorpan> i could make it as nice, but then the file size would be ridiculuos
  198. # [19:11] <zcorpan> (like 50kb)
  199. # [19:12] <zcorpan> but daddy.svg is good enough, no?
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  201. # [19:14] <rubys> how was the AvK svg produced?
  202. # [19:15] <zcorpan> rubys: livetrace in illustrator
  203. # [19:15] <rubys> I'm impressed... most tools like that produce 8 digits of (quite unnecessary) precision and a lot of style crap.
  204. # [19:16] <zcorpan> rubys: i did save for web & devices, set digits to 1 and cleaned it up afterwards
  205. # [19:17] <jcranmer> I'd say 2, maybe 3, digist is all you need
  206. # [19:17] <zcorpan> also i traced twice, once with high threshold (the 0.5 opacity group) and once with low threshold (foreground)
  207. # [19:18] <zcorpan> maybe it could be tweaked to look better
  208. # [19:19] <zcorpan> i wonder why they emit digits at all - if most coordinates have digits you're wasting the file size with dots
  209. # [19:20] <zcorpan> instead you could bump up viewBox and work with integers
  210. # [19:21] <rubys> I try to do mine all in integers -- and with a viewBox of about 100x100
  211. # [19:21] <Philip`> If you care about filesize then you'll gzip it, and the decimal points add very little extra entropy so they shouldn't take much space
  212. # [19:22] <zcorpan> Philip`: it's still an optimization that could be made
  213. # [19:22] <rubys> in this svg, consecutive paths could be collapsed, and the translations factored in.
  214. # [19:22] <annevk> as long as there are enough dots :)
  215. # [19:23] <zcorpan> and it allows for more fine-tuned setting of the accuracy (instead of 1..7 digits you can have say 10..10000000 wide viewBox)
  216. # [19:25] <zcorpan> rubys: feel free to modify it :)
  217. # [19:26] <rubys> another example of unnecessary precision: c-1,0-0.8,1.2-1,2 ... unless you zoom in *really* strong, that's a straight line: l-1,2
  218. # [19:27] <rubys> I have some scripts that can optimize individual paths. Annevk: is this something you intend on using?
  219. # [19:29] <annevk> I plan on using http://simon.html5.org/dump/daddy.svg at least
  220. # [19:29] <annevk> I would like to use the other as well though currently it looks a lot worse imo than what I have now
  221. # [19:30] <zcorpan> annevk: would you use it if it looked better but was maybe 20kb?
  222. # [19:31] <rubys> I like that one! (daddy.svg). Especially how the text is, well, text. So you can easily rotate in different slogans...
  223. # [19:31] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@wsip-70-165-210-27.lv.lv.cox.net)
  224. # [19:32] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no) ("Leaving")
  225. # [19:33] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no)
  226. # [19:34] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@wsip-70-165-210-27.lv.lv.cox.net) (Client Quit)
  227. # [19:38] <annevk> yeah, and the font Arthur used is free, so we can make it identical
  228. # [19:38] <annevk> zcorpan, I suppose
  229. # [19:40] <annevk> my weblog uses less bandwidth than html5.org
  230. # [19:40] <annevk> and 3 times as much as philip.html5.org
  231. # [19:43] <rubys> looks like I can cut daddy.svg in half, and that's without combining the paths
  232. # [19:46] <annevk> wow
  233. # [19:47] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no) ("Leaving")
  234. # [19:48] <annevk> html5.org now uses 9.37 GB of disk space for diff caches
  235. # [19:48] <annevk> that's 3 GB more than a month ago
  236. # [19:50] <rubys> early results: http://intertwingly.net/tmp/daddy.svg; clearly the text is misplaced and the bottom half is a single path that was mangled by my script. But this should be an indication of some of the savings that can be made.
  237. # [19:50] <rubys> And I can do more - given the mangling, I turned off a portion of my script that optimizes.
  238. # [19:51] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no)
  239. # [19:54] <rubys> original image is 14KB :-)
  240. # [19:57] * Joins: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.12)
  241. # [19:57] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/dump/logo2.svg might be slightly better (and to my surprise no larger)
  242. # [20:02] <hsivonen> jcranmer: the usual demo use cases of RDFa take a microformat use case and make the solution more complex
  243. # [20:18] <annevk> except that they hide the namespace declarations from the audience so it looks more acceptable
  244. # [20:19] <annevk> hmm, I know xmlns="" can't be put in a namespace due to authors using [xmlns] as a style hook, dunno about xmlns:<str>=""
  245. # [20:19] <rubys> seems less likely
  246. # [20:22] <annevk> yeah
  247. # [20:22] <Lachy> rubys, what benefit would it be to have xmlns:foo put into the DOM in the same way it is in XML, without having to introduce full namespace syntax for elements and attributes?
  248. # [20:22] <annevk> though I suspect script libraries (might even be RDFa script libraries!) could get broken if we change things
  249. # [20:23] <hsivonen> how does GRDDL deal with CURIEs given the relative purity of the XPath data model compared to the DOM?
  250. # [20:23] <Lachy> e.g. given <html xmlns:foo="...">...<foo:bar></foo:bar>... How would you expect the <foo:bar> element to be parsed?
  251. # [20:25] <Lachy> given that we already went through this whole namespace prefix discussion with aria: attributes and the conclusion of that was to go with aria-attr syntax, I don't think we should bother going into it again with xmlns:foo and other prefixed stuff
  252. # [20:26] <hsivonen> Lachy: I don't like it that we have to spend cycles researching if it would break the Web instead of the XHTML2 WG sticking to stuff that doesn't break for sure.
  253. # [20:27] <Lachy> agreed
  254. # [20:29] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  255. # [20:31] <gsnedders> danbri: you said you were cc'ing timbl, but you don't appear to have
  256. # [20:33] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  257. # [20:37] <annevk> http://fuckyoupenguin.blogspot.com/ lol
  258. # [20:41] <Lachy> haha! :-D
  259. # [20:42] <rubys> hsivonen: yet you have no problem asking danbri to spend cycles doing something that (given your snarky comment above) aren't likely to support
  260. # [20:44] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  261. # [20:44] * Joins: ROBOd2 (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  262. # [20:45] <rubys> I'm also not clear what the importance of localName is... localName is undefined in IE. My experience is that things that aren't supported in IE tend to have a significant reduced chance of being widely adopted.
  263. # [20:46] <rubys> If I were in DanBri's shoes, I would be inclined to think that this is all one big snipe hunt.
  264. # [20:48] <rubys> The net affect of all this: asking of others what you are unwilling to do yourself increases the perception that this effort isn't truly open.
  265. # [20:49] <hsivonen> rubys: as far as I can tell, there has been no dialog between the WHATWG and the RDFa TF--only indication that they are going to REC and we need to deal
  266. # [20:49] <danbri> gsnedders, yeah i forgot the cc:, I fwd'd it to him straight afterwards, cc:'ing Henri
  267. # [20:50] <gsnedders> danbri: Just making sure you hadn't forgotten and not noticed :)
  268. # [20:50] <danbri> thanks :)
  269. # [20:50] <hsivonen> rubys: I'm much more OK with expending effort towards working around SVG legacy things than adjusting parsing to fit new things that were designed with full knowledge of text/html and ignored DOM realities
  270. # [20:50] <danbri> rubys, i prefer to take an optimistic view of apparent conflict, until i get real evidence otherwise
  271. # [20:52] <hsivonen> rubys: I might even be proactive with validating an RDF serialization like I was with ARIA if I can see that supporting the serialization won't be really bad in a context of XML parser & HTML parser connected to a RELAX NG validator
  272. # [20:52] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-194-126.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  273. # [20:53] <rubys> hsivonen: would changing the HTML parser to deal with attributes that start with "xmlns:" address your requirement?
  274. # [20:53] <danbri> is validator.w3.org relax-ng powered nowadays?
  275. # [20:53] <hsivonen> danbri: the HTML5 part is
  276. # [20:53] <danbri> cool
  277. # [20:53] * danbri likes what little he knows of relaxng
  278. # [20:53] * Quits: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.12)
  279. # [20:55] <hsivonen> rubys: mapping those attributes to SAX startPrefixMapping calls would give above-parser consistency, but the idea of adding that parser code for an unproven technology that could easily have avoided this problem offends me
  280. # [20:56] <hsivonen> rubys: that is, I think it would set an awfully bad precedent to let other WGs throw HTML-hostile RECs at us and just keep adjusting HTML5
  281. # [20:58] <hsivonen> the experience with the current code for dealing with xml:lang and xmlns:* still irks me so much that I'm not feeling at all charitable about the prospect of doing even more contortions for CURIEs
  282. # [20:58] <rubys> I'm sure that there is an equally valid perspective where people can see the HTML and WHATWG as being the ones doing the throwing... is there anyway to get past the "everything is one big pissing context" perspective?
  283. # [21:00] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-194-126.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  284. # [21:08] <zcorpan> annevk: http://simon.html5.org/dump/logo3.svg
  285. # [21:10] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@207-118-25-126.dyn.centurytel.net)
  286. # [21:15] <gsnedders> Useless code for today: http://pastebin.ca/1311876
  287. # [21:15] * gsnedders stares at the source
  288. # [21:15] <gsnedders> zcorpan: You have to be kidding…
  289. # [21:16] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@La06a.l.pppool.de)
  290. # [21:18] <zcorpan> gsnedders: sorry i don't follow
  291. # [21:19] <gsnedders> zcorpan: What is the point of having that as SVG when it is nothing but paths? Surely it won't scale well.
  292. # [21:19] <zcorpan> what's wrong with paths?
  293. # [21:20] <annevk> zcorpan, that last one is nice
  294. # [21:20] <gsnedders> Surely they won't scale so well as you won't have curved edges properly scaling (and eventually scaling to the point of seeing the straight lines that make up the curve)
  295. # [21:20] <zcorpan> annevk: :)
  296. # [21:21] <zcorpan> gsnedders: paths don't have to be straight (and they aren't)
  297. # [21:21] <zcorpan> try zooming
  298. # [21:21] * gsnedders is blatantly a n00b
  299. # [21:22] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/images/paths/quad01.svg
  300. # [21:22] <zcorpan> it's 25kb, but maybe rubys can make it smaller and then gzipped it should be acceptably small :)
  301. # [21:24] <annevk> yeah, definitely compared to the several MB home pages you see now and then
  302. # [21:26] <zcorpan> i had to resize the raster image to 800% or so and then patch some lines here and there so it wouldn't be so boxy
  303. # [21:26] <zcorpan> and then livetrace worked a lot better
  304. # [21:28] <zcorpan> also if i checked the 'use strokes' checkbox and tweaked the parameters so that it actually wouldn't output any strokes, the number of paths were radically reduced (but looked about the same)
  305. # [21:29] <rubys> which is 25kb?
  306. # [21:29] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/dump/logo3.svg
  307. # [21:31] <rubys> Looks like I can get that under 10kB.... before compression.
  308. # [21:31] <zcorpan> cool :)
  309. # [21:32] <rubys> I need to debug why the output of my tool is incorrect first. :-)
  310. # [21:32] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L8c6d.l.pppool.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  311. # [21:32] <rubys> But I trust that the size is is in the right ballpark.
  312. # [21:32] <rubys> and I want to debug my tool anyway
  313. # [21:34] <annevk> http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10145058-93.html :/
  314. # [21:34] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  315. # [21:42] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  316. # [21:49] <rubys> http://intertwingly.net/tmp/logo3.svg
  317. # [21:52] <zcorpan> looks similar enough at 100% zoom :)
  318. # [21:53] <rubys> and yet, a bit more bandwidth friendly.
  319. # [21:55] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  320. # [21:57] <zcorpan> it might have been a bit too agressive if one cares about nice looks when zoomed in a bit (or when printed)
  321. # [21:58] <zcorpan> care to share the script you use?
  322. # [21:58] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@La06a.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  323. # [21:59] <rubys> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/02/01/SVG-Tidy
  324. # [22:00] <zcorpan> thanks
  325. # [22:00] <rubys> it is a bzr repository if you want to check it out
  326. # [22:05] * Joins: dimich_ (n=dimich@207-118-25-126.dyn.centurytel.net)
  327. # [22:16] * Quits: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  328. # [22:17] <gsnedders> hmm… This maths has lost me.
  329. # [22:17] * gsnedders stabs
  330. # [22:19] <Dashiva> Hm, lastweek post about public-html mail before any replies.
  331. # [22:19] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@207-118-25-126.dyn.centurytel.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  332. # [22:20] <hsivonen> wher did Larry Masinter get "walled-garden handset operating system makers" from?
  333. # [22:21] <Dashiva> Why, that must be Opera Mini
  334. # [22:21] <hsivonen> oh is iPhone OS itself a walled garden
  335. # [22:21] * hsivonen was thinking about the usual mobile walled gardens
  336. # [22:22] * Quits: ROBOd2 (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  337. # [22:24] <zcorpan> maybe lastweekinhtml5 = Larry Masinter
  338. # [22:29] <Lachy> zcorpan, who is Larry Masinter?
  339. # [22:30] <zcorpan> Lachy: see public-html
  340. # [22:30] <zcorpan> or the blog
  341. # [22:44] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  342. # [22:45] <annevk> seems unlikely to me
  343. # [22:46] <hsivonen> last week gives a whole new dimension te W3C werewolf games
  344. # [22:46] <hsivonen> s/te/to/
  345. # [22:50] <gsnedders> Using integration by parts, find \int x^3\lnx dx
  346. # [22:50] * gsnedders can't get the right answer for this :\
  347. # [22:56] <Dashiva> werewolf games?
  348. # [23:01] <roc> a party game that's ultra lame yet inexplicably popular in tech circles
  349. # [23:01] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@e179084127.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  350. # [23:02] <Dashiva> Oh, that silly ripoff of mafia
  351. # [23:03] <hsivonen> I'm seeing the YSoD at http://realtech.burningbird.net/and-all#comments
  352. # [23:03] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-66-31.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  353. # [23:08] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/dump/daddy.svg now has the proper font
  354. # [23:09] <Lachy> zcorpan, is it intentional that "SVG SUCKS" doesn't fit within the speech bubble?
  355. # [23:09] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64)
  356. # [23:10] <zcorpan> Lachy: it does if the linked font is used
  357. # [23:11] <Lachy> I tried 9.6. I'll get the latest internal build and see if that works
  358. # [23:11] <roc> works in Firefox trunk!
  359. # [23:12] <Lachy> works in opera 10 too
  360. # [23:12] <hsivonen> and WebKit
  361. # [23:12] <hsivonen> interop!
  362. # [23:12] <Lachy> will it work in Firefox 3.1?
  363. # [23:12] <roc> yeah
  364. # [23:13] * Quits: dimich_ (n=dimich@207-118-25-126.dyn.centurytel.net)
  365. # [23:13] <Lachy> ok. When is 3.1 expected to be released?
  366. # [23:13] <annevk> guess I have the wrong Opera 10
  367. # [23:13] <zcorpan> webkit seems to wait with rendering the text until the font is loaded, which is seems nice
  368. # [23:14] <zcorpan> s/is //
  369. # [23:14] <roc> I dunno, a couple of months
  370. # [23:14] <Lachy> annevk, I used build 6196 Mac
  371. # [23:14] <annevk> s/seems //
  372. # [23:14] <roc> sometimes you want to wait to show the text, sometimes you don't
  373. # [23:14] <annevk> works for my menu though, hmm
  374. # [23:14] <Lachy> yeah, Opera had a flash of fallback font
  375. # [23:15] <zcorpan> firefox too
  376. # [23:15] <Lachy> which looked like Helvetica, or other similar sans-serif font. Could you pick a better fallback font?
  377. # [23:15] <zcorpan> Lachy: which one?
  378. # [23:15] <annevk> guess my Firefox 3.2a1pre is somehow out of date then as @font-face does not work
  379. # [23:15] * Lachy checks Font Book
  380. # [23:16] * annevk doesn't care about fallback
  381. # [23:16] * annevk rather has browsers fix their bugs
  382. # [23:16] <zcorpan> annevk: will you file a bug?
  383. # [23:16] <roc> annevk: you on Linux?
  384. # [23:16] <annevk> yeah
  385. # [23:17] <annevk> and I might file a bug ;)
  386. # [23:17] <roc> ok, that build might not have it
  387. # [23:17] <annevk> k
  388. # [23:18] <roc> a later build should work
  389. # [23:18] * zcorpan looks at "The heavier “Impact” sans serif stack" at http://www.sitepoint.com/article/eight-definitive-font-stacks/2/
  390. # [23:18] <annevk> guess I'll update then
  391. # [23:19] <Lachy> annevk, is the font your using under a free licence?
  392. # [23:20] <annevk> it's a free font, haven't checked license details
  393. # [23:20] * Lachy finds http://www.1001fonts.com/font_details.html?font_id=2379 - says freeware
  394. # [23:23] <Lachy> damn, IE8 doesn't do SVG :-(
  395. # [23:24] <hsivonen> conditional freeware with redistribution prohibited
  396. # [23:26] <Lachy> yeah, the licence isn't particularly good, though it's not clear whether using it as a web font is considered to be a redistribution
  397. # [23:27] * annevk doesn't care
  398. # [23:27] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@76-191-151-56.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  399. # [23:28] <annevk> it's not like I abide the law when it comes digital rights anyway
  400. # [23:29] <Lachy> yeah, I know. most people don't
  401. # [23:30] * Quits: Maurice (n=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  402. # [23:30] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  403. # [23:32] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  404. # [23:32] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64)
  405. # [23:33] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-97-132.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  406. # [23:37] <zcorpan> Lachy: provided some fallback fonts
  407. # [23:38] <zcorpan> also used text-anchor="middle" so it won't misalign
  408. # [23:40] <Philip`> nils-dagsson-moskopp@dieweltistgarnichtso.net says "(No, please don't point out that I'm using Wordpress as well and vulnerable to similar things.)", so I'll be careful not to point out anything like http://blog.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/?s=%ef%bf%bf
  409. # [23:40] <Lachy> zcorpan, Impact is a good choice
  410. # [23:57] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  411. # [23:59] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/2009/01/14-xhtml-minutes.html
  412. # [23:59] <hsivonen> "markbirbeck: we could produce a document that describes the rendering behavior of the various html document types (?)"
  413. # Session Close: Mon Jan 19 00:00:00 2009

The end :)