/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-01-20 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 20 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Lachy> annevk, yeah, that twitter message is a good reason to retain <ol type>
  4. # [00:00] <zcorpan> annevk: i just did it myself -- wanted to see how it would look :)
  5. # [00:00] <annevk> I see :)
  6. # [00:00] <zcorpan> although it looks terrible in safari and firefox (because they don't support svg in content)
  7. # [00:01] <zcorpan> should i upload it?
  8. # [00:01] * Joins: doublec (n=Chris_Do@118-92-140-58.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  9. # [00:01] <zcorpan> i also got rid of fake-border
  10. # [00:01] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@169.222.9.224) ("Leaving")
  11. # [00:04] <takkaria> more feed readers need css sanitisers
  12. # [00:05] <Philip`> Lachy: http://philip.html5.org/tests/font/gentium-embedded.html
  13. # [00:06] <Philip`> Lachy: probably with http://www.sil.org/~gaultney/Gentium/ already installed on your system
  14. # [00:06] <Philip`> http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/render_download.php?site_id=nrsi&format=file&media_id=GentiumBasic_110&filename=GentiumBasic_110.zip in particular
  15. # [00:07] <Philip`> Lachy: In Opera 10 build 4125 on Linux, the whole text is rendered in Gentium
  16. # [00:07] <roc> zcorpan: we don't support what what?
  17. # [00:07] <Philip`> Lachy: whereas in Firefox 3.1 only the e/m/b/d letters are Gentium and the rest is default sans-serif, which is what I want it to be
  18. # [00:07] <Philip`> s/want/expect/
  19. # [00:08] <zcorpan> roc: css 'content'
  20. # [00:08] <Lachy> works for me
  21. # [00:09] <roc> zcorpan: er
  22. # [00:09] <Lachy> using Opera 10 Mac, build 6196
  23. # [00:09] <zcorpan> roc: e.g. :before { content:url(foo.svg) }
  24. # [00:09] <roc> oh, SVG images
  25. # [00:09] <roc> OK
  26. # [00:09] <annevk> zcorpan, sure
  27. # [00:09] <Lachy> it may be a bug an the older build that's now fixed
  28. # [00:09] <hsivonen> Philip`: WFM in Opera 10 on Mac
  29. # [00:09] <roc> yeah, that's next on my list
  30. # [00:09] <roc> but that should work in Webkit
  31. # [00:09] <Lachy> hsivonen, which build have you got?
  32. # [00:09] <zcorpan> annevk: http://simon.html5.org/dump/anne.html
  33. # [00:10] * Quits: kingryan (n=kingryan@c-24-5-77-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  34. # [00:10] <hsivonen> Lachy: 6166
  35. # [00:10] <annevk> oh, Firefox does do the hand?
  36. # [00:10] * Philip` tries twiddling the test a bit
  37. # [00:10] <annevk> oh wait, that's Opera
  38. # [00:11] <zcorpan> annevk: i changed the search form stuff a bit to make it look right
  39. # [00:11] <zcorpan> maybe i broke it in some other browser
  40. # [00:11] <Lachy> it could be a linux specific bug. Who else has linux here that can test the latest internal builds?
  41. # [00:11] <Philip`> Oh, how odd
  42. # [00:11] <Philip`> I don't actually have Gentium installed, as far as I can tell
  43. # [00:11] <Philip`> so my hypothesis was faulty
  44. # [00:11] <annevk> zcorpan, the logo is not updated?
  45. # [00:12] <annevk> uploaded
  46. # [00:12] <Philip`> so the question is: where is Opera getting the glyphs for all the other characters from? :-/
  47. # [00:12] <zcorpan> annevk: i haven't used sam's version of the logo
  48. # [00:12] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no) ("Leaving")
  49. # [00:12] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@c-98-203-230-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  50. # [00:14] <zcorpan> Philip`: maybe you have used a different webfont with the same name that opera cached?
  51. # [00:14] <Philip`> Oh
  52. # [00:14] <Philip`> I'm being stupid
  53. # [00:14] <Philip`> It's not actually using Gentium, it's just using something that looks very similar
  54. # [00:15] <Lachy> I have no idea what Gentium is. Is that the name of the font you're embedding?
  55. # [00:15] <Philip`> (Somehow it's picking "Bitstream Charter" as the fallback, and I have no idea why)
  56. # [00:15] <Philip`> Lachy: Yes - see the links I posted some minutes ago
  57. # [00:15] <Lachy> is Bitstream Charter a serif font?
  58. # [00:16] <Philip`> Yes
  59. # [00:16] <Lachy> ok. That is weird. It should be picking a sans-serif fallback font
  60. # [00:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: in case you are wondering, I do have Gentium installed
  61. # [00:17] * Joins: abarth (n=abarth@c-67-180-199-65.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  62. # [00:17] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tests/font/gentium-embedded-opera.png
  63. # [00:18] <zcorpan> annevk: the logo is uploaded... doesn't it work?
  64. # [00:18] <Philip`> It's more obvious now than when I initially had 1em text :-(
  65. # [00:18] <Lachy> Philip`, if you remove the @font-face, what fallback font does it use?
  66. # [00:18] <Philip`> Lachy: A sans-serif one
  67. # [00:19] <annevk> now it does
  68. # [00:20] <annevk> still usable in Firefox
  69. # [00:20] <annevk> guess I'll use it then just for fun
  70. # [00:21] <zcorpan> :)
  71. # [00:21] <annevk> though hopefully rubys can make the files somewhat smaller or maybe I should learn to use his tools + SVG
  72. # [00:21] <zcorpan> he uploaded a smaller version of the logo at least
  73. # [00:21] <Philip`> Hmm, fonts are fun - I have one which looks terribly ugly in Opera, but the spacing in the subsetted version is correct, whereas it looks pretty in Firefox but the subsetted version has all its characters overlapping
  74. # [00:22] <zcorpan> annevk: http://intertwingly.net/tmp/logo3.svg
  75. # [00:23] <annevk> k
  76. # [00:23] <annevk> will still do it "tomorrow" though
  77. # [00:23] * annevk is tired
  78. # [00:24] <zcorpan> that's ok
  79. # [00:24] <annevk> good :)
  80. # [00:24] <zcorpan> :)
  81. # [00:27] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  82. # [00:28] <Philip`> Aha, Firefox is happy when I fix the hdmx table
  83. # [00:28] <Philip`> which Opera presumably ignores
  84. # [00:29] <zcorpan> annevk: also, you might want to add AddType font/ttf .ttf
  85. # [00:29] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  86. # [00:31] <annevk> zcorpan, is anyone fixing the media type issue then?
  87. # [00:31] <zcorpan> annevk: dunno
  88. # [00:32] * annevk tried, didn't get enough support and got distracted
  89. # [00:33] <zcorpan> currently it's text/plain
  90. # [00:33] <annevk> I mean fixing the media type issue in browsers
  91. # [00:34] <annevk> I know it's broken on my server, I didn't specify anything at all
  92. # [00:35] <annevk> I wonder why Larry moved the Origin thread from WebApps to the HTML WG :/
  93. # [00:35] <annevk> I also wonder why he claims that the W3C cannot introduce new headers and protocols, they can
  94. # [00:39] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  95. # [00:39] <annevk> lol http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/reminder-opera
  96. # [00:44] <Philip`> Is there a way to disable spellchecking in <p contenteditable> in Firefox and Opera?
  97. # [00:44] <Philip`> (The red underlines are ugly)
  98. # [00:44] <annevk> spellcheck="no" in Firefox?
  99. # [00:45] <Philip`> Doesn't seem to work
  100. # [00:45] <annevk> oh, I thought they had that implemented
  101. # [00:45] <Philip`> Maybe only on form fields?
  102. # [00:46] <annevk> maybe :)
  103. # [00:46] <zcorpan> Philip`: iirc, the spellcheck implementation predated contenteditable in firefox
  104. # [00:47] * Philip` is using the latest FF3.1 nightly
  105. # [00:47] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  106. # [00:49] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  107. # [00:50] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  108. # [00:52] <roc_> spellcheck should work with contenteditable I thought
  109. # [00:54] <Philip`> I must be doing something stupid because I still get wavey red lines
  110. # [00:56] <annevk> maybe it's spellcheck="false" ?
  111. # [00:56] * annevk isn't sure about the exact syntax
  112. # [00:56] <Philip`> I tried that too
  113. # [00:56] <annevk> ah, it's "off"
  114. # [00:57] <annevk> just like autocomplete I suppose
  115. # [00:58] <annevk> did Microsoft invent both autocomplete and contenteditable?
  116. # [00:58] <roc_> I think we must have broken it somehow
  117. # [00:59] <Philip`> data:text/html,<p contenteditable spellcheck="off">Slartibartfast
  118. # [00:59] <Philip`> underlines in red in FF
  119. # [00:59] <Philip`> and also in Opera 10 once I click on the text
  120. # [00:59] <roc_> yeah, something's busted
  121. # [01:04] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  122. # [01:07] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  123. # [01:13] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  124. # [01:27] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@c-98-203-230-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  125. # [01:29] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-ad7ddf0b8036ecaa)
  126. # [01:34] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
  127. # [01:36] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-4-107.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  128. # [01:38] <roc_> hmm
  129. # [01:38] <roc_> I am the stupidest person in the world
  130. # [01:38] * roc_ is now known as roc
  131. # [01:39] <roc> spellcheck="true" does not turn off spellcheck in Firefox trunk
  132. # [01:39] <roc> spellcheck="false" does
  133. # [01:39] <roc> (and it works with contenteditable)
  134. # [01:43] * Hixie receives spam with the subject line "Make a living on Google"
  135. # [01:43] <Hixie> i think i have that covered
  136. # [01:44] <Philip`> roc: data:text/html,<p contenteditable spellcheck="false">Slartibartfast still gives me a wavey red line
  137. # [01:45] <Philip`> ...at least in Gecko/20090119 Shiretoko/3.1b3pre
  138. # [01:48] <Hixie> Lachy: i think it's reasonable to assume that copy and paste is part of the problem statement, because that's a user-facing interface.
  139. # [01:49] <Hixie> Lachy: "i want to expose a way to have the user copy content from one document, paste it into my text editor, and have my text editor automatically generate the bibliographic entry" seems like a reasonable request.
  140. # [01:50] <Lachy> Hixie, that one is a copy and paste issue. But the other two about getting contact information from a web page into an address book, and getting an email from webmail into a native client, aren't copy and paste issues
  141. # [01:50] <Lachy> at least, they don't have to be
  142. # [01:51] <Hixie> sure
  143. # [01:56] <roc> Philip`: OK, it looks like spellcheck only works on "body" to control contenteditable spellchecking for the entire document :-(
  144. # [01:59] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  145. # [02:02] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  146. # [02:06] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  147. # [02:08] <Philip`> http://fonts.philip.html5.org/
  148. # [02:08] <Philip`> Seems to work in at least FF3.1 and Opera 10
  149. # [02:08] <Philip`> (It's pretty limited and buggy, but at least it can handle simple ASCII characters for a few fonts)
  150. # [02:09] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@cm-84.208.153.202.getinternet.no) (No route to host)
  151. # [02:13] * Joins: hallvors (n=hallvord@softbank221089079197.bbtec.net)
  152. # [02:16] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Remote closed the connection)
  153. # [02:16] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  154. # [02:19] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  155. # [02:21] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  156. # [02:25] <Hixie> rubys: i'm confused. what text about 'origin' are we discussing removing anyway?
  157. # [02:26] <Hixie> i thought the whole problem was that there was no definition and we needed an ID for one
  158. # [02:37] <Lachy> Hixie, based on the Origin thread, I assumed there was a specific section about Origin that was being moved out of the spec and into an ID. Is that not the case?
  159. # [02:37] <Lachy> perhaps I should look at the spec...
  160. # [02:37] <Hixie> i don't know
  161. # [02:37] <Hixie> nobody seems to have said what they are discussing
  162. # [02:37] <Lachy> wouldn't it be section 5.3 or 5.3.1?
  163. # [02:38] <Lachy> hmm, maybe not
  164. # [02:39] <Hixie> that's about scripting
  165. # [02:39] <Hixie> not the http header
  166. # [02:40] <Lachy> hsivonen said here that he'd discussed it with you http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jan/0210.html
  167. # [02:42] <Lachy> I see. The spec mentions XXX-Origin header in several places throughout the spec. But there doesn't seem to be anywhere that actually defines it. Now I'm confused too
  168. # [02:43] <abarth> politics makes my head hurt :(
  169. # [02:47] * Quits: hallvors (n=hallvord@softbank221089079197.bbtec.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  170. # [02:48] * weinig is now known as weinig|food
  171. # [02:51] * Quits: abarth (n=abarth@c-67-180-199-65.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("Leaving")
  172. # [03:07] * weinig|food is now known as weinig
  173. # [03:27] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@g228078011.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  174. # [03:27] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  175. # [03:37] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  176. # [03:39] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.177)
  177. # [03:43] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  178. # [03:56] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  179. # [04:17] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-41-195.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  180. # [04:18] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  181. # [04:21] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  182. # [04:51] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  183. # [04:53] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  184. # [04:56] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@58.187.20.140)
  185. # [04:59] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-24-130-144-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  186. # [05:03] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  187. # [05:31] * Joins: harig (i=opera@121.245.59.246)
  188. # [05:49] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  189. # [05:53] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  190. # [05:56] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  191. # [06:14] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@pool-71-246-220-112.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  192. # [06:20] <heycam> annevk, http://twitter.com/waka/status/1132138169
  193. # [06:26] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  194. # [06:29] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) ("bye")
  195. # [06:33] * Quits: harig (i=opera@121.245.59.246) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  196. # [06:57] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  197. # [06:59] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-69-90.dynamic.amis.net)
  198. # [07:00] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  199. # [07:01] * Joins: harig (i=opera@219.64.78.68)
  200. # [07:21] * Parts: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-69-90.dynamic.amis.net)
  201. # [07:37] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-4-107.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("sex break")
  202. # [07:40] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp195.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  203. # [07:55] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  204. # [08:08] * Joins: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.11)
  205. # [08:26] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  206. # [08:28] * Joins: deane (n=opera@121.98.190.61)
  207. # [08:30] * Joins: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  208. # [08:36] <Hixie> i wish webkit had an upload progress bar
  209. # [08:38] * Joins: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  210. # [08:45] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-188-211.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  211. # [08:51] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  212. # [09:19] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@cm-84.208.153.202.getinternet.no)
  213. # [09:19] <annevk> roc, also note that the spec says the values should be "on" and "off"...
  214. # [09:20] <annevk> roc, so maybe Chrome and Gecko do different things here?
  215. # [09:20] <roc> which spec? Ian's old spec doesn't
  216. # [09:20] <roc> http://www.damowmow.com/playground/spellcheck.txt
  217. # [09:22] <annevk> ah, but an even older one does: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-June/006762.html
  218. # [09:22] <annevk> sorry for the confusion
  219. # [09:27] <annevk> http://twitter.com/nlothian/statuses/1131828648
  220. # [09:27] <annevk> (worth a read)
  221. # [09:29] * annevk wonders if @color-profile is implemented
  222. # [09:32] <Philip`> http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/2009/01/19/where-memes-go-to-die/ (#7)
  223. # [09:33] <deane> annevk: you may already have seen this, but: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0075.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0077.html
  224. # [09:36] <annevk> I hadn't
  225. # [09:36] * annevk is not following public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf
  226. # [09:37] * annevk thinks the voting Ian referred to would be in the HTMLWG, not the WHATWG
  227. # [09:55] * Joins: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-86.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  228. # [09:56] <deane> yeah, Manu has it wrong, in fact the whole RDFa issue is a result of misinformation and misunderstandings, we wouldn't have this issue of RDFa deployment if the W3C admited publicly that only a handfull of people are using XHTML
  229. # [10:04] <deane> ...That way we wouldn't end up with specs that can't be implemented.
  230. # [10:09] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  231. # [10:09] <annevk> no big deal
  232. # [10:10] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@f051195131.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  233. # [10:11] <deane> It's no big deal as long as everyone knows that HTML5 doesn't have an obligation to suport all these unimplementable specs
  234. # [10:11] <annevk> well, there is disagreement over that
  235. # [10:12] <annevk> and I think we've yet to establish who is right
  236. # [10:16] <danbri> deane, which spec re rdfa are you thinking is unimplementable?
  237. # [10:18] <deane> danbri: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/
  238. # [10:20] <danbri> that's 'rdfa in xhtml'; nobody is asking HTML5 to be XML-only. So I think this leaves the door open for figuring out which bits of it could be re-built on top of html5 without too much trauma
  239. # [10:20] <danbri> eg. a profile without using curies
  240. # [10:21] <deane> how can you implement a spec that is XHTML only, when there's only about one hundred people in the world using XHTML
  241. # [10:22] <danbri> this conversation isn't feeling very collaborative. i'm trying to talk to you about finding a version of that design which *is* implementable in html5...
  242. # [10:23] <deane> if you have to alter the spec to be usable in text/html, then the whole should be altered since the web is text/html, therefore the spec has no value
  243. # [10:24] <danbri> "if ... then .... therefore ...."
  244. # [10:24] * danbri thinks
  245. # [10:24] <danbri> nope, you've lost me.
  246. # [10:24] <danbri> one more time?
  247. # [10:24] <deane> start again from scratch
  248. # [10:24] <danbri> i spent some time yesterday talking with henri, and looking at existing rdfa parser behaviour
  249. # [10:25] <deane> specs need to be written from scratch to suit text/html
  250. # [10:25] <danbri> idea was to find something that was close to what those parsers expect (i tested 6); and close to what could be done in html5 with no ugliness
  251. # [10:26] <deane> sure, so we are really starting from scratch then, right?
  252. # [10:26] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@cm-84.208.153.202.getinternet.no) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  253. # [10:26] <danbri> the rdfa spec tries to be a design that can be bound to specific concrete carrier languages (svg, atom, xhtml, ...)
  254. # [10:27] <danbri> binding to a non-xml language is more of a stretch; since you need to invent or avoid having a ns abbreviation mechanism
  255. # [10:27] <danbri> most of the dicussion to date has been around this re-inventing a ns prefixing mechanism
  256. # [10:27] <danbri> the idea we explored yesterday was about avoiding one by always using full URIs
  257. # [10:28] <danbri> ie. a compromise that might not be what either 'side' wants but which can still be useful
  258. # [10:29] <deane> I can understand that, but, not many people are using xhtml, most people using svg in the future will be using it in text/html which has no support for namespaces
  259. # [10:31] <deane> ...and people using xhtml in the future will be using xhtml5, not xhtml1, so unfortunately that spec we mentioned has no real value
  260. # [10:31] <danbri> so would you agree it was useful for me to spend my yesterday trying out rdfa tool support for a namespaces-free profile of rdfa?
  261. # [10:31] <deane> I think that's a step forward
  262. # [10:32] <danbri> notes are in http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2009/rdfa/tests/readme.txt if you're interested
  263. # [10:32] <danbri> unfortunately it seems the parsers mostly work on the html5 no-ns version, but so long as they find a magic hack, xmlns:http="http:"
  264. # [10:33] <danbri> henri said it's easier to make the validator tolerate this than to have it check real use of xml namespaces; but i hope we can approach from the other side too, and have rdf parsers not look for it
  265. # [10:34] <danbri> this would give a copy-and-paste-friendly profile of rdfa: subsets which, with some care, could be copy/pasted between html5 and xhtml5/atom/svg docs
  266. # [10:34] <danbri> (obviously you'd need to stick to pretty bland markup to avoid tripping up on other things, but that's life)
  267. # [10:38] <deane> has the RDFa crowd got any demo pages showing what they think RDFa could look like in a html5 page? I don't understand what the need is for namespaces or pseudo non xml namespaces
  268. # [10:40] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  269. # [10:41] <deane> actually, I don't think I've seen a concrete proposal put forward from the RDFa guys, I saw something about adding six attributes
  270. # [10:42] <danbri> see t5 and t6 examples in http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2009/rdfa/tests/
  271. # [10:42] <danbri> those are what i was testing parsers with; one has xhtml boilerplate, the other htm5
  272. # [10:43] <danbri> and http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2009/rdfa/tests/g2.html is one that breaks henri's current validation demo for html5+rdfa-minus-curies, cos it uses rev=
  273. # [10:43] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-4-107.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  274. # [10:44] <danbri> hi MikeSmith
  275. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> danbri: hej
  276. # [10:44] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  277. # [10:47] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-71-202-163-211.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  278. # [10:49] * Philip` encounters a bug in the Font::TTF library
  279. # [10:50] <Philip`> which is surprising because I thought it'd take much less than a day to find one
  280. # [10:50] * Quits: doublec (n=Chris_Do@118-92-140-58.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("ChatZilla 0.9.79-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  281. # [10:57] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-39e152cb2a8f411f)
  282. # [10:58] * Philip` encounters a second bug in the Font::TTF library
  283. # [10:58] <Philip`> It's not going so well now :-(
  284. # [11:00] <annevk> have you tried error handling yet?
  285. # [11:00] * Quits: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.11) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  286. # [11:02] <Philip`> What kind of error handling?
  287. # [11:02] <annevk> dunno, wrong tables, wrong set of bytes, etc.
  288. # [11:03] * Joins: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.11)
  289. # [11:03] <Philip`> No - I'm just assuming the input is an approximately correct font
  290. # [11:05] * Joins: ap_ (n=ap@195.239.126.12)
  291. # [11:05] <annevk> maybe I don't understand what you're doing
  292. # [11:07] * Quits: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.11) (Nick collision from services.)
  293. # [11:07] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  294. # [11:08] <Philip`> I'm doing http://fonts.philip.html5.org/
  295. # [11:09] <annevk> ah, cool
  296. # [11:09] <annevk> I thought you were testing font interpreters
  297. # [11:10] <Philip`> That's just a side-effect of trying to view fonts in browsers
  298. # [11:11] <gsnedders> Philip`: Trying a multi-byte character doesn't work well.
  299. # [11:12] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-39e152cb2a8f411f) ("Lost terminal")
  300. # [11:13] <Philip`> gsnedders: I just want ASCII to work first :-)
  301. # [11:18] <Philip`> Currently I just want to be able to load a particular font and save it again, without it mysteriously stopping working in Firefox even though I can't see any non-trivial differences in the files
  302. # [11:21] * Parts: deane (n=opera@121.98.190.61)
  303. # [11:25] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  304. # [11:26] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  305. # [11:27] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  306. # [11:29] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  307. # [11:30] <Philip`> Hmm, turns out that Firefox (or whatever font library it uses on Linux) is sensitive to the ordering of the tables, which is probably violating the TTF spec
  308. # [11:32] <Philip`> ...or maybe it isn't?
  309. # [11:32] <Philip`> I'm confused :-(
  310. # [11:33] <Philip`> Oh, yes, I was confused
  311. # [11:33] * Philip` curses checksums that he forgot to update
  312. # [11:37] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-d65176ee8ad6faec)
  313. # [11:39] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-97-132.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  314. # [11:44] * Quits: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no) ("Ex-Chat")
  315. # [11:45] <roc> we use Freetype and Pango on Linux
  316. # [11:47] <Philip`> They seem to be working fine, and it's just my code that's being stupid
  317. # [11:48] * Joins: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no)
  318. # [11:50] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-188-211.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  319. # [11:54] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-4-107.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("sex break")
  320. # [11:59] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  321. # [11:59] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  322. # [12:14] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@cm-84.208.153.202.getinternet.no)
  323. # [12:21] * Philip` decides to adopt a policy of not supporting fonts with CFF outlines, because he's lazy and doesn't care enough
  324. # [12:33] <annevk> rubys, oops, duh
  325. # [12:34] * annevk should do something simple, like breaking his blog in all but beta browsers, while sick
  326. # [12:35] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  327. # [12:35] <Dashiva> You could make your blog all red and add lots of "comrade".
  328. # [12:36] <annevk> http://barslecht.nl/weblog/
  329. # [12:36] <annevk> en ook de homepage http://barslecht.nl/
  330. # [12:37] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  331. # [12:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: bummer. Wouldn't it be nice to support the Computer Modern Unicode family, which makes it possible to get the beloved LaTeX look on the Web
  332. # [12:42] <jcranmer> "[Put "almost" in front of most words in the following.]
  333. # [12:42] <jcranmer> "
  334. # [12:42] <jcranmer> okay...
  335. # [12:42] <jcranmer> The almost consistent almost DOM almost criteria is almost necessary but almost not almost not almost sufficient.
  336. # [12:44] <hsivonen> almost things like xml:lang take more than almost effort to support
  337. # [12:47] <annevk> but that would not have been the case if we could have put it in the XML namespace, right?
  338. # [12:49] <annevk> so many things are slightly broken because of design decision made in the past; makes me wonder what our mistakes are
  339. # [12:50] <annevk> according to olliej <canvas> should have had a Path object from the beginning, anything else?
  340. # [12:57] <hsivonen> annevk: when XML was specced, there were markup languages with attribute lang
  341. # [12:57] <hsivonen> and id
  342. # [12:57] <hsivonen> so the right way would have been to reserve the names id and lang in XML if cross-vocabulary ids and langs were considered important
  343. # [12:57] <annevk> oh yeah, no doubt they made lots of mistakes when speccing XML
  344. # [12:58] <annevk> but I'm sort of past the idea of getting that fixed (apart from maybe xml:id)
  345. # [12:58] <hsivonen> one of the mistakes being adding Namespaces to the XML layer instead of making it an RDF layer problem
  346. # [12:59] <hsivonen> if the damage done to XML is any indication, we should avoid adding CURIEs to HTML
  347. # [12:59] <annevk> (reasonable people would say here: I disagree)
  348. # [12:59] <hsivonen> SVG and MathML should get rid of xml:id, in my opinion
  349. # [12:59] <hsivonen> both have pre-existing id that works well enough
  350. # [13:00] <annevk> that would be a start, yes
  351. # [13:00] <annevk> as for CURIEs, they seem to hard to author to me
  352. # [13:00] <annevk> but I can also see that having to register short names to be used as prefix is a non-starter for many RDF folks
  353. # [13:01] <annevk> though maybe there is some middle way
  354. # [13:01] <annevk> where you either use a predefined prefix or just use the full URI
  355. # [13:01] <hsivonen> one of the fundamental problem that RDF-the-model has is that it uses URIs as identifiers and URIs are too long
  356. # [13:01] <annevk> that would at least survive under copy & paste
  357. # [13:02] <hsivonen> so RDF has had various syntaxes created for it
  358. # [13:02] <hsivonen> and the syntaxes (except N-Triples, yay for N-Triples) try to somehow make the length of the URIs disappear
  359. # [13:03] <hsivonen> but instead of making things simpler and shorter, the RDF serializations always create more cruft and complication when they try to make URIs shorter
  360. # [13:03] <hsivonen> so in time each serialization is declared as sucky, a new one is created and around we go again
  361. # [13:04] <annevk> has it been established that the URL length is the main issue with the serializations?
  362. # [13:04] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247)
  363. # [13:04] <annevk> or the abbreviation mechanism
  364. # [13:05] <annevk> or are there other reasons why e.g. one might not like RDF/XML?
  365. # [13:06] <hsivonen> annevk: RDF serializations in practice if they abbreviate URIs want to have more than one URI prefix in scope, so just declaring a base won't work
  366. # [13:07] <annevk> yeah, but they allow for multiple abbreviations
  367. # [13:07] <hsivonen> annevk: and, yes, if you consider how other serializations of the same family differ from N-Triples, one of the main things they tend to address is URI length
  368. # [13:07] <annevk> ok
  369. # [13:07] <hsivonen> annevk: I mean, if you have an abbreviation mechanism, you can't use the one that works for HTML (i.e. base plus relative)
  370. # [13:08] <hsivonen> without being able point to one of many active bases
  371. # [13:09] <annevk> "Furthermore, experience in the wild (notably with SVG) shows that as soon as you have two versions a non-negligible subset of all documents start being labelled with the wrong version, meaning you now have a lot of useless metadata on your hands."
  372. # [13:09] * annevk wonders when berjon will let go of the angle brackets :)
  373. # [13:10] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah, we can address that though, e.g. give <html> a prefix attribute or some such
  374. # [13:10] <annevk> but the main problem then is copy & paste
  375. # [13:12] <hsivonen> annevk: nope, there are more problems left even in that case: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-January/018283.html
  376. # [13:14] <annevk> I don't think "Negative savings in syntax length when I given prefix is only used a couple of times in a file." is correct
  377. # [13:14] <annevk> as typically those URLs are long
  378. # [13:14] <hsivonen> ok, s/couple of times/once/
  379. # [13:15] <annevk> prefix="x:{url}" is 10 characters plus 2 characters each time you use it
  380. # [13:15] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  381. # [13:15] <annevk> well ok :)
  382. # [13:16] <annevk> but yeah, those concerns seem valid, although using registered prefixes instead requires maintaining a massive table of RDF vocabularies
  383. # [13:16] <annevk> but I'm not sure if you suggested something like that
  384. # [13:18] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  385. # [13:20] * Joins: davidhund (n=davidhun@dhund.xs4all.nl)
  386. # [13:24] * Joins: davidhund_ (n=davidhun@dhund.xs4all.nl)
  387. # [13:24] * Quits: davidhund (n=davidhun@dhund.xs4all.nl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  388. # [13:27] <Philip`> hsivonen: Computer Modern would indeed be nice; if I don't decide this project is a waste of time that nobody cares about and give up on it, I suppose CFF support would be a worthwhile thing to add in the future
  389. # [13:28] * Philip` has no idea if "CFF" is the right term to use, but that's the name of the OpenType table that the offending fonts store glyph data in
  390. # [13:33] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-d65176ee8ad6faec) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  391. # [13:36] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-55-106.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  392. # [13:43] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@cm-84.208.153.202.getinternet.no) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  393. # [13:46] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  394. # [13:51] <zcorpan> annevk: is it a problem to have a massive table of rdf vocabularies?
  395. # [13:51] <zcorpan> we have a massive table of entities
  396. # [13:51] <annevk> shepazu, "<shepazu> definitely wrt URLs" HTML5 does not ignore IETF standards for URIs or IRIs, it just defines pre-processing when they are encountered within HTML attributes. According to e.g. Larry that is acceptable
  397. # [13:52] <annevk> zcorpan, hsivonen e-mail points it out as something that would be annoying, I don't feel strongly either way
  398. # [13:52] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  399. # [13:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Entities aren't open-ended. there's a new RDF vocabulary born every minute
  400. # [13:53] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok
  401. # [13:56] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ietf-w3c/2009Jan/0003.html has a long discussion on HTML5 by danc, shepazu, some IETF folks, etc.
  402. # [14:07] * Quits: othree (n=othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  403. # [14:08] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  404. # [14:16] <takkaria> and people want RDFa because of decentralised extensibility
  405. # [14:17] <takkaria> make a table of URLs and no-one will want it anymore. :)
  406. # [14:18] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-a45253f6f89a7bfc)
  407. # [14:19] <Philip`> Oh no, I forgot about ligatures :-(
  408. # [14:32] * Quits: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-86.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008121623]")
  409. # [14:33] * Joins: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-86.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  410. # [14:35] <jgraham> takkaria: Indeed. It seems like you could have a canonical table and allow people to use short prefixes from the table if they want. ALthough I guess there are problems if you want to append to the table and clients need to update
  411. # [14:36] <hsivonen> like I said, all attempts to hide the length of URIs lead to more complexity
  412. # [14:38] <rubys> hsivonen: are you up for helping me think through a thought experiment on this subject? I'm not sure what the outcome is, but it might be worth exploring...
  413. # [14:39] <hsivonen> rubys: perhaps later this week, not today or tomorrow
  414. # [14:40] <rubys> ok
  415. # [14:43] * Joins: othree (n=othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw)
  416. # [14:44] * Quits: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-86.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008121623]")
  417. # [14:45] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  418. # [14:46] * Quits: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  419. # [14:49] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  420. # [14:55] <Dashiva> Another "we should force implementors to implement what we want" post
  421. # [14:56] * Joins: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.10)
  422. # [14:56] * Quits: ap_ (n=ap@195.239.126.12) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  423. # [14:56] <takkaria> my brother made an amusing comment on identifying everything with URIs
  424. # [14:57] * Joins: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-86.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  425. # [14:57] <takkaria> "makes me understand why we don't identify ourselves with genealogies anymore"
  426. # [14:58] <Philip`> Did people ever identify themselves with genealogies, other than in Tolkien?
  427. # [14:59] <Dashiva> Vikings
  428. # [14:59] <takkaria> the bible has a fair bit of it too
  429. # [14:59] <takkaria> anyway, I thought it was worth sharing, regarldess of factual accuracy. :)
  430. # [15:01] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  431. # [15:02] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-55-106.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  432. # [15:02] <jgraham> If only you had shared in in the form of an RDF triple we could have merged it with other humerous remarks
  433. # [15:03] <takkaria> jokes are not well representable in RDF, sadly
  434. # [15:03] <Dashiva> I propose using http://irc.whatwg.org/2009/01/20/13/55/52/0 to denote the statement
  435. # [15:04] <Philip`> I once heard a humerous remark from my fibula
  436. # [15:05] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-9-158.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  437. # [15:05] <Dashiva> This? http://dashiva.net/img/humerus.jpg
  438. # [15:09] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-97-132.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  439. # [15:09] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-8357e61d6101c3e0)
  440. # [15:15] <zcorpan> Hixie: s/with and height/width and height/ (in the img section)
  441. # [15:16] <jgraham> If jokes can't be represented in RDF, how will the film "Short Circuit" ever become reality? Clearly we need a solution for the use case of making friends with robots
  442. # [15:17] <Dashiva> Surely robots will find RDF itself funny enough :P
  443. # [15:24] <zcorpan> Hixie: is http://www.libpr0n.com/tests/frames/004/004.html invalid? (i get the same result in opera, firefox, ie8 and safari)
  444. # [15:35] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-78-121.dynamic.amis.net)
  445. # [15:56] <Lachy> oh no. The doctype thread is degrading into a versioning debate again :-(
  446. # [15:56] * Lachy adds that to my list of threads to not respond
  447. # [16:05] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-78-121.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  448. # [16:10] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-65-29.dynamic.amis.net)
  449. # [16:10] <annevk> you can probably use the http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/emotion/XGR-emotionml/ vocabulary to express humor in RDF
  450. # [16:13] <annevk> brucel suggested Mr Last Week might be Hixie gone schizophrenic, as in Fight Club :p
  451. # [16:13] * Joins: brucel (n=brucel@92-236-128-204.cable.ubr10.smal.blueyonder.co.uk)
  452. # [16:14] * jgraham already suggested My Last Week was in fact Hixie
  453. # [16:15] * Philip` fixes a bug that probably caused gsnedders to see multi-byte characters not working
  454. # [16:15] <Philip`> (Characters like â are typically stored as composite glyphs, so I need to recurse into those to work out which component glyphs need to be included too, and then renumber them all)
  455. # [16:16] <Philip`> (This all seems like a bit of a pain really)
  456. # [16:18] <annevk> maybe that's why nobody has done it yet ;)
  457. # [16:20] <annevk> meanwhile Last Week has a "follow your leader" post http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/2009/01/stark-choice-for-html5-and-future-of.html :p
  458. # [16:20] <Philip`> But it's not a lot of pain, so someone else should have already spent a few days doing the same kind of thing
  459. # [16:20] <Philip`> (but not that I can find anywhere)
  460. # [16:21] <Philip`> (and anyway it's more fun to rewrite it)
  461. # [16:24] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  462. # [16:29] * Quits: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no) (Remote closed the connection)
  463. # [16:30] * Philip` finds that Opera does really crazy things, like using entirely the wrong font for some paragraphs
  464. # [16:32] * Joins: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no)
  465. # [16:37] <Philip`> It seems to pretty much ignore the font-family <-> src mapping in the CSS, and just make up its own mapping
  466. # [16:37] <Lachy> Philip`, file some bugs
  467. # [16:39] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-65-29.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  468. # [16:39] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-65-29.dynamic.amis.net)
  469. # [16:40] <Philip`> Oh, how annoying, it works correctly if I upload the fonts somewhere
  470. # [16:40] <Philip`> Oh, maybe it's just a stale cache
  471. # [16:41] * Quits: davidhund_ (n=davidhun@dhund.xs4all.nl) ("... Ik heb wel iets beters te doen :-)")
  472. # [16:41] <Philip`> Hmm, yes, that was it
  473. # [16:47] <takkaria> oh, heh, I'm on the list for who could be the biggest smeghead
  474. # [16:47] <takkaria> win
  475. # [16:49] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
  476. # [16:51] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  477. # [16:52] * Joins: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  478. # [16:52] * Joins: billmason (n=bmason@ip8.unival.com)
  479. # [16:54] * Quits: harig (i=opera@219.64.78.68) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  480. # [16:58] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp195.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  481. # [17:01] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@203-217-73-65.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  482. # [17:01] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  483. # [17:03] * Parts: brucel (n=brucel@92-236-128-204.cable.ubr10.smal.blueyonder.co.uk)
  484. # [17:06] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  485. # [17:08] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  486. # [17:19] * Joins: mookid (i=mookid@ROFL.name)
  487. # [17:22] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  488. # [17:27] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  489. # [17:35] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-71-202-163-211.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  490. # [17:37] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de)
  491. # [17:45] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva) (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  492. # [17:48] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-61c50824599fefe2)
  493. # [17:48] * Joins: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@1.84-48-51.nextgentel.com)
  494. # [18:06] * gsnedders realizes it's actually impossible to do footnotes, pretty much
  495. # [18:07] * Parts: BenMillard (n=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  496. # [18:08] <jgraham> gsnedders: Try taking off your shoes
  497. # [18:16] * Quits: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-86.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  498. # [18:18] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  499. # [18:23] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  500. # [18:27] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  501. # [18:33] <danbri> humm http://www.whitehouse.gov/ is xhtml served as text/html
  502. # [18:34] <gsnedders> Because serving XHTML as text/html is really helpful when you want to move to real XHTML!
  503. # [18:34] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  504. # [18:35] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@f051195131.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  505. # [18:35] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com) (Client Quit)
  506. # [18:36] <Philip`> All you need is to wait until IE supports XHTML, and then flip your web server's big red switch labelled "application/xhtml+xml", and the world will become many times zazzier than before!
  507. # [18:53] * Philip` marvels at the ligatures now visible in the word "fluffiest"
  508. # [18:53] * Philip` doesn't marvel so much at the completely broken spacing in "التلفون"
  509. # [18:54] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  510. # [19:10] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@17.244.18.191)
  511. # [19:11] * Joins: eric_carlson__ (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-56718aa009e565fd)
  512. # [19:12] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-8357e61d6101c3e0) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  513. # [19:12] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  514. # [19:27] * Quits: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@17.244.18.191) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  515. # [19:29] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  516. # [19:30] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Remote closed the connection)
  517. # [19:31] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  518. # [19:33] <Philip`> Hmm
  519. # [19:34] <Philip`> My multipage splitter script has an instance of curl which has been attempting to downloading the spec for 21 days and 19 hours
  520. # [19:36] <rubys> sweet, not only is whitehouse.gov well-formed, it also has a number of links to feeds. Atom feeds. :-)
  521. # [19:36] <gsnedders> Philip`: Hmm… Has it started getting a response yet?
  522. # [19:37] <Philip`> rubys: It'd be more impressive if the feeds weren't 0 bytes in length
  523. # [19:37] <rubys> http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whitehouse.gov%2Ffeed%2Fblog.aspx
  524. # [19:38] * rubys is not thrilled with '.aspx'
  525. # [19:38] <gsnedders> 'Your feed appears to be encoded as "utf-8", but your server is reporting "US-ASCII"' — ergh.
  526. # [19:38] <gsnedders> And duplicate IDs.
  527. # [19:38] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-55e4ca6440e9a31e)
  528. # [19:39] <rubys> Content-Type: text/xml
  529. # [19:39] <gsnedders> Yeah, I was guessing that was the cause of the first error
  530. # [19:39] <rubys> ewwww.... *all* of the ids are the same.
  531. # [19:39] <Philip`> gsnedders: No, but it's dumped a hundred megabytes of progress bar into my log file
  532. # [19:39] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@c-67-180-39-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  533. # [19:40] <gsnedders> rubys: At least it means it's easier to work around, having duplicate IDs in the feed at the same time
  534. # [19:40] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yay :\
  535. # [19:41] <rubys> time for a blog entry. :-)
  536. # [19:41] * gsnedders should blog more :)
  537. # [19:42] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  538. # [19:44] <karlcow> http://www.legacy.com/SeattleTimes/DeathNotices.asp?Page=LifeStory&PersonId=122901048
  539. # [19:44] <karlcow> Norbert Hannes Mikula
  540. # [19:45] <karlcow> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-sgml-wg/1997Feb/0054.html
  541. # [19:46] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@f051195131.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  542. # [19:47] * aroben|away is now known as aroben
  543. # [19:57] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  544. # [19:57] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  545. # [19:58] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-188-211.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  546. # [20:11] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@guest-225.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  547. # [20:14] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("Ex-Chat")
  548. # [20:14] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.244.18.191)
  549. # [20:15] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-e0bb42fbdfb15045)
  550. # [20:15] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
  551. # [20:16] * Quits: eric_carlson__ (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-56718aa009e565fd) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  552. # [20:32] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.244.18.191) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  553. # [20:32] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@guest-225.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  554. # [20:33] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
  555. # [20:33] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  556. # [20:34] <Philip`> Ooh, excellent
  557. # [20:35] <Philip`> If I use a combining diacritic in a line of text that uses @font-face, then Safari 3.1 scrunches up all the characters from the whole line on top of each other
  558. # [20:35] <Philip`> but only when I run from a local web server, not when I upload it to somewhere else :-/
  559. # [20:35] <Philip`> (even after I empty my cache)
  560. # [20:35] <Dashiva> charset thing?
  561. # [20:37] <Philip`> Oh
  562. # [20:37] <Philip`> Oops
  563. # [20:37] <Philip`> Probably because it's being served as text/plain on the remote server
  564. # [20:39] <Philip`> Oh, that's not it, the font is now application/octet-stream on both
  565. # [20:41] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-9-158.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  566. # [20:42] <Philip`> Oh, right, I'm still just being an idiot
  567. # [20:42] <Philip`> since the version on the remote web server pointed to a non-existent URL for the font
  568. # [20:44] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  569. # [20:48] <Philip`> Could someone say what http://philip.html5.org/tests/font/combining-chars.html looks like in a recent Safari on OS X?
  570. # [20:50] <takkaria> ooks fine to me
  571. # [20:50] <takkaria> in Safari 3.2.1
  572. # [20:50] <takkaria> same text on different lines in different fonts
  573. # [20:51] <rubys> second line looks like a smaller font
  574. # [20:53] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  575. # [20:53] <rubys> http://intertwingly.net/tmp/combining-chars.png
  576. # [20:53] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@ip565f6edb.direct-adsl.nl)
  577. # [20:54] * Quits: raspberry-lemon (n=lemon@raspberry-style.net) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  578. # [20:54] <Philip`> Okay, thanks
  579. # [20:54] <Philip`> I get http://philip.html5.org/tests/font/combining-chars-safari-win.png
  580. # [20:54] <Philip`> which is suboptimal from a readability perspective
  581. # [20:55] <Dashiva> But can you live with it?
  582. # [20:55] * rubys chuckles
  583. # [20:56] <Philip`> I tend not to use many combining diacritics in my daily writing, so I suppose it's not *that* much of a problem
  584. # [20:56] * Quits: sicking__ (n=chatzill@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  585. # [20:57] * takkaria is happy that he started blackholing html5-related mail at teh beginning of the month
  586. # [20:57] * Joins: xcombelle (n=chatzill@AToulouse-158-1-125-171.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  587. # [21:00] <Philip`> Hmph, I tried replacing the offending characters in my test page with the text "(Safari sucks)", and it turns out that one of my test fonts implements ')' as an upside-down '(', which reveals that my font subsetter has another bug and breaks the '(' :-(
  588. # [21:01] <Philip`> Uh
  589. # [21:01] <Philip`> ...breaks the ')' :-(
  590. # [21:02] <Philip`> ...except in Opera, which doesn't use the font's glyphs for either '(' or ')'
  591. # [21:03] <Philip`> ...Oh, sorry, that's just it caching too much again
  592. # [21:06] <gsnedders> Is there any way to hide the first and last characters of a string using CSS?
  593. # [21:07] * Philip` discovers http://www.fontembedding.com/eot/
  594. # [21:07] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  595. # [21:09] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@modemcable114.185-200-24.mc.videotron.ca) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  596. # [21:10] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  597. # [21:12] * Joins: raspberry-lemon (n=lemon@raspberry-style.net)
  598. # [21:12] * Quits: ap (n=ap@195.239.126.10)
  599. # [21:14] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-a45253f6f89a7bfc) (Remote closed the connection)
  600. # [21:14] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-a39eb7eec7cdf737)
  601. # [21:15] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  602. # [21:15] <roc> gsnedders: for the first, you might be able to use first-letter if you're really lucky
  603. # [21:16] <gsnedders> roc: first char. is punctuation, so I'd get that matching the first two chars. fun.
  604. # [21:16] <roc> Then, I guess, no
  605. # [21:17] <gsnedders> The only vaguely possible suggestion I've got involves XSLT. Yay.
  606. # [21:18] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@modemcable202.32-81-70.mc.videotron.ca)
  607. # [21:18] * dave_levin is now known as dave_levin|away
  608. # [21:19] <roc> that's not CSS
  609. # [21:20] <gsnedders> No, it isn't.
  610. # [21:20] <gsnedders> I also don't want to learn XSLT for this.
  611. # [21:21] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@ip565f6edb.direct-adsl.nl)
  612. # [21:35] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no)
  613. # [21:35] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-188-211.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  614. # [21:40] * dave_levin|away is now known as dave_levin
  615. # [21:40] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-188-211.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  616. # [21:48] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-2009010213 [Firefox 3.2a1pre/20090119020412]")
  617. # [21:48] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  618. # [21:53] <Philip`> Now I can convert my subsetted fonts into EOT so they work in IE
  619. # [21:54] <Philip`> which I suppose is a good thing, even if EOT is evil, because otherwise nobody will use these fonts when they don't work in IE
  620. # [22:00] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  621. # [22:00] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  622. # [22:00] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-188-211.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  623. # [22:05] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.244.18.191)
  624. # [22:06] * Joins: eric_carlson__ (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-832b4afc4523fd85)
  625. # [22:06] * Quits: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-e0bb42fbdfb15045) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  626. # [22:23] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  627. # [22:24] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.244.18.191) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  628. # [22:24] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  629. # [22:28] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  630. # [22:29] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64)
  631. # [22:30] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  632. # [22:36] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.244.18.191)
  633. # [22:36] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64) ("Leaving")
  634. # [22:40] * Joins: doublec (n=Chris_Do@202.0.36.64)
  635. # [22:49] * Joins: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  636. # [22:51] * Quits: eric_carlson__ (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-832b4afc4523fd85) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  637. # [23:12] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-67a2f52b6b20c446)
  638. # [23:12] <hsivonen> there's something wrong with a favicon when its weirdness makes it to the BBC News front page: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7839744.stm
  639. # [23:14] * Joins: sicking (n=chatzill@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  640. # [23:17] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  641. # [23:18] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  642. # [23:19] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.177)
  643. # [23:25] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@f051195131.adsl.alicedsl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.1b3pre/20090118145850]")
  644. # [23:28] <Philip`> hsivonen: Seeing the last entry on that page ("I wanted to show someone using their hands to open the BBC and see inside."), I guess they didn't learn from http://www.flickr.com/photos/qwghlm/529967993/
  645. # [23:29] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.244.18.191) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  646. # [23:32] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  647. # [23:34] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@203-217-73-65.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  648. # [23:36] <jruderman> heh, BBC itself has a terrible favicon
  649. # [23:39] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  650. # Session Close: Wed Jan 21 00:00:00 2009

The end :)