/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-01-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 22 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:45] <annevk> hmm, wow, Google is down
  15. # [00:48] <roc> google.co.nz is up
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  17. # [00:49] <annevk> and it's over
  18. # [00:50] <jcranmer> how many corporations thought their networks were broken as a result?
  19. # [00:50] <annevk> though maybe not everything is up yet
  20. # [00:51] * annevk restarted his browser...
  21. # [00:51] <annevk> slightly worrisome
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  23. # [00:53] <annevk> actually, parts still seem down, e.g. reader and gmail
  24. # [00:53] <annevk> oh well, past bedtime anyway
  25. # [00:54] <roc> gmail's up for me
  26. # [00:54] <roc> maybe some datacenter blew up
  27. # [00:55] <jcranmer> with walls moving 6 inches?
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  34. # [01:18] <Philip`> http://fonts.philip.html5.org/
  35. # [01:19] <Philip`> Now with more exciting front-end
  36. # [01:19] <Philip`> and occasional ligature support, at least for cases like "ff" in the DejaVu fonts
  37. # [01:20] <Philip`> Also it violates the licences of some of the fonts, but please don't notice that
  38. # [01:20] <Philip`> Oh, and it adds IE support too
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  42. # [01:21] <Hixie> for the fonts that are available freely, it would be useful to be able to download the fonts so that the author can try them on his site
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  44. # [01:21] <Hixie> and it would be useful to be able to point the script at a site and have it fetch all the files and figure out what characters are needed
  45. # [01:21] <Hixie> by parsing the html and css and applying the css even :-)
  46. # [01:22] <takkaria> and executing the JS? :)
  47. # [01:22] <Hixie> sure!
  48. # [01:24] <Philip`> It wouldn't seem infeasible to let people specify an HTML file and a CSS class name, and have it extract the characters from that
  49. # [01:24] <Philip`> but I guess it's more important to have the basics working first, before adding fancy features like that :-)
  50. # [01:24] * Philip` fixes some bugs so now it should handle Unicode characters too
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  53. # [01:31] <Philip`> It's already much more useful than http://www.fontembedding.com/eot/ which just lets you take a perfectly good font and then limit it so it can only work on your own domain, and then gives you a "Unable to load DLL 'makeeot.dll': The specified module could not be found. (Exception from HRESULT: 0x8007007E)"
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  56. # [01:43] <Hixie> christ, as if xslt wasn't enough: http://www.xsharp.org/samples/
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  58. # [01:53] <roc> it might be better then XSLT if it doesn't pretend to not be a programming language
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  104. # [01:55] <roc> uh oh
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  164. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: about attributes that are new to HTML5, e.g., ping and sizes
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  166. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> Hixie: the HTML5 spec doesn't say anything about whether conformant UAs must expose those new attributes as properties, right?
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  168. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> I mean about supporting them in addition to generic methods; e.g, link.sizes in addition to just link.getAttribute('sizes')
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  170. # [04:09] <Lachy> MikeSmith, the spec lists sizes in the HTMLLinkElement interface
  171. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> ah, yeah, OK
  172. # [04:09] <Lachy> and ping in the HTMLAnchorElement interface
  173. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> I see
  174. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> what about the data-* attributes?
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  177. # [04:11] <Lachy> there's a dataset api http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-dataset
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  180. # [04:36] <heycam> annevk, (re event handler attribute definitions) yeah it would be good to have a common place that defines those
  181. # [04:36] <heycam> what does html5 have atm, EventListener or so? what makes that not enough?
  182. # [04:37] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#event-handler-attributes is what html5 has
  183. # [04:38] <Hixie> i don't think webidl is the right place for it
  184. # [04:38] <Hixie> dom events, maybe
  185. # [04:38] <heycam> yeah sounds like it
  186. # [04:39] <Hixie> i think it's fine to have it in html5 for now
  187. # [04:39] <heycam> Hixie, in that section: "The second way is as as an ..."
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  189. # [04:45] <Hixie> thanks
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  227. # [07:12] <zcorpan__> hmm, http://fonts.philip.html5.org/ doesn't work for me in opera now
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  229. # [07:16] <zcorpan__> and ie8
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  253. # [09:05] <hsivonen> Philip`: shouldn't CSS 'format' for .ttf be format("truetype") and format("opentype") for .otf?
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  259. # [09:42] <Philip`> hsivonen: Not really - the fonts are OpenType, and the OpenType spec says "OpenType fonts may have the extension .OTF or .TTF"
  260. # [09:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: do all of Firefox, Safari and Opera support CFF outlines on all their platforms?
  261. # [09:42] <Philip`> (or at least it says that for fonts with TrueType outlines)
  262. # [09:43] <Philip`> hsivonen: No idea, I've only been looking at TrueType-outline ones
  263. # [09:44] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-webfonts/#src
  264. # [09:44] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  265. # [09:44] <Philip`> zcorpan: Oops, looks like Opera only likes format("truetype") and not format("opentype")
  266. # [09:44] <hsivonen> how do I, as an author, tell if a font is "TrueType" or "TrueType Open"?
  267. # [09:44] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  268. # [09:46] <annevk> DOM Events would work, but that's not moving...
  269. # [09:46] * Joins: svl_ (n=chatzill@194.109.2.86)
  270. # [09:46] <annevk> And since we could invent some special type of interface... On the other hand, that might make Web IDL depend on HTML5 depending on how it's defined...
  271. # [09:47] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  272. # [09:48] <hsivonen> yay for SSL. fedorahosted.org's cert expired half an hour ago--blocking access to Liberation fonts
  273. # [09:48] <annevk> Hixie, where is it defined that things bubble from Document to Window?
  274. # [09:48] <jwalden> yay for fedorahosted.org and the provider of its cert, more correctly
  275. # [09:48] <annevk> Hixie, and if load is just dispatched on Window, how does document.onload work?
  276. # [09:50] * Quits: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@f051077041.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  277. # [09:50] <Philip`> zcorpan: I've changed it to lie about being format("truetype") now, so it seems to work in Opera
  278. # [09:51] <Philip`> zcorpan: It worked for me in IE8 before these changes, and still works, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't work for you
  279. # [09:52] <Philip`> hsivonen: As an author, you probably do what I do and assume you might as well say they're OpenType because that's a superset of TrueType, and then find it doesn't work in Opera and so say they're TrueType instead :-)
  280. # [09:52] <annevk> why do you use format() at all?
  281. # [09:53] <annevk> and please file bugs :)
  282. # [09:53] <Philip`> To stop browsers wasting time downloading formats they can't understand
  283. # [09:53] <annevk> and how do you make it work in IE?
  284. # [09:54] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  285. # [09:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: also, with Free fonts that have both .ttf and .otf available, I have no idea which one I should want except that CFF outlines don't work in Prince yet
  286. # [09:54] <Philip`> though it's not a very successful plan, because it results in IE downloading both 'foo.eot' and 'foo.ttf) format("truetype"), url(foo.eot'
  287. # [09:55] <Philip`> Oops, I mean 'foo.ttf) format("truetype"), url(foo.eot) format("embedded-opentype"'
  288. # [09:56] <hsivonen> so far, I've noticed that Firefox has superior ligature support compared to Opera and Safari on Mac
  289. # [09:56] <zcorpan> Philip`: oh, i had disabled "Font download" in ie
  290. # [09:56] <Philip`> annevk: By providing EOT files to IE
  291. # [09:56] <annevk> well yeah, that's clear by now :p
  292. # [09:56] <Philip`> zcorpan: I can imagine that would hamper its ability to download fonts :-)
  293. # [09:57] <zcorpan> Philip`: you can reduce the number of 404s by using conditional comments, but dunno about a css-only solution
  294. # [09:57] * Joins: aaronlev (n=chatzill@f051077041.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  295. # [09:58] <Philip`> zcorpan: Could that be done in a forward-compatible way?
  296. # [09:59] <Philip`> zcorpan: I want something that'll work in IE9 if they don't change their font support at all (so it needs a @font-face with the .eot, and with no format("...") because IE can't parse that), but will also work if they implement the new @font-face syntax and either do or don't add support for .ttf
  297. # [09:59] <hsivonen> still, my main concern is that TrueType rendering on Windows is so different from Mac and Linux that it'll be easy to create pages on Mac and Linux and have the page go unreadable on Windows
  298. # [10:01] <Philip`> hsivonen: Look at the FFF Tusj Bold example on my page - it's awful in Safari on Windows, differently awful in IE8 on Windows, even more broken in Opera on Linux, and works fine in Opera on Linux
  299. # [10:01] <zcorpan> Philip`: then i guess only by serving IE9 what you have now
  300. # [10:01] <zcorpan> which makes it all very crufty
  301. # [10:01] <Philip`> zcorpan: Indeed :-(
  302. # [10:03] <zcorpan> Philip`: "even more broken in Opera on Linux, and works fine in Opera on Linux" - i guess you meant windows for one of them? :)
  303. # [10:03] <Philip`> zcorpan: Oh
  304. # [10:03] <Philip`> zcorpan: No, I meant "Firefox" for the second one
  305. # [10:03] <zcorpan> ah
  306. # [10:04] <Philip`> Opera seems to only use the font for the "us" and "Bol" parts when rendering the font's name
  307. # [10:05] <Philip`> though it works fine with the original non-subsetted .ttf, so it could be the result of a bug in my code
  308. # [10:05] * Joins: aaronlev_ (n=chatzill@f051112009.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  309. # [10:06] <Philip`> hsivonen: Ligatures seem to work for me in Firefox on Linux and IE on Windows, and not in Opera on Linux or Safari on Windows
  310. # [10:07] <hsivonen> Philip`: my understanding is that Safari intentionally prefers speed over prettiness here
  311. # [10:08] <hsivonen> I think it's discriminatory to turn off ligatures for Latin while supporting them for some other scripts
  312. # [10:09] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  313. # [10:09] <Philip`> Preferring anything over prettiness seems contrary to the whole Mac culture :-)
  314. # [10:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: I thought ligatures made a big difference in othr scripts to the shape so the word looked totally wrong whereas in latin it is only a minor aesthetic difference that only matters at small font size
  315. # [10:10] <Philip`> hsivonen: It doesn't seem that discriminatory, since for Latin it just makes some character sequences look a bit better, while other scripts are entirely unreadable unless you have ligatures
  316. # [10:10] <jgraham> (totally wrong without ligatures)
  317. # [10:10] <Philip`> Oh, what jgraham said
  318. # [10:10] <Philip`> jgraham: Ligatures matter in Latin at large font sizes too
  319. # [10:10] <jgraham> Philip`: I thought they generally looked weird at large font sizes
  320. # [10:11] <jgraham> But maybe I am wrong
  321. # [10:11] <jgraham> (do you have nice examples?)
  322. # [10:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: the word "Quirks" looks great in Linux Libertine in Firefox on Mac
  323. # [10:12] <hsivonen> not so great in Safari
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  327. # [10:12] <zcorpan> Philip`: for some reason opera seems to use the font on the index page instead of the generated font, or at least i get the glyphs for "ABCFTabcdjlosu123;" instead of those for "Testing abc"
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  333. # [10:13] <Philip`> jgraham: Try http://fonts.philip.html5.org/ and DejaVu Serif and "fluffily affable fish" in recent Firefox, and try changing the text size
  334. # [10:14] <Philip`> zcorpan: Oh, I guess it's possible that it's caching fonts by their internal name, or something
  335. # [10:15] <Philip`> zcorpan: (and all the subsetted fonts have the same name regardless of which characters are included in them)
  336. # [10:16] * Philip` sees that his font service is pretty slow for DejaVu fonts :-(
  337. # [10:21] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.42.56.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  338. # [10:22] <zcorpan> Philip`: i guess we should change that then if font subsetting is supposed to work (or everyone doing font subsetting needs to change the internal name)
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  340. # [10:25] <hsivonen> zcorpan: caching fonts by font name seems like a security hole
  341. # [10:25] * Quits: aaronlev (n=chatzill@f051077041.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  342. # [10:25] <hsivonen> zcorpan: an attacker can serve a font with misleading glyphs, have it stick into the cache and then wait for the user to navigate to another site using the font
  343. # [10:26] <hsivonen> the browser should instead generated Origin-scoped unpredictably random names for the fonts
  344. # [10:26] <hsivonen> *generate
  345. # [10:26] <zcorpan> hsivonen: the cache doesn't work cross origin
  346. # [10:26] <hsivonen> ah
  347. # [10:27] <zcorpan> actually i think it shouldn't work cross document
  348. # [10:27] <Philip`> zcorpan: I'm already intending to change my code to give a random meaningless name to each font, since the Open Font License doesn't let you use any of the words of the original font's name
  349. # [10:27] <Philip`> zcorpan: so I don't think it's a practical issue for me
  350. # [10:27] <zcorpan> Philip`: ok
  351. # [10:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: you could also just do an MD5 on the resulting font data
  352. # [10:27] <Philip`> zcorpan: but it does seem confusing and wrong if fonts are shared based on some internal details that the user might not ever see
  353. # [10:27] <hsivonen> that would give the same name to the same subset each time
  354. # [10:28] <Philip`> hsivonen: That would be hard, because the font's name is part of the font data :-)
  355. # [10:28] <jgraham> Philip`: That more or less meets my definition of ugly :) (I like the fl ff and fi ligatures at small font size but not at large font size)
  356. # [10:28] <Philip`> zcorpan: (as opposed to URL or something like that)
  357. # [10:28] <Hixie> annevk: only opera has document.onload
  358. # [10:28] <Hixie> annevk: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#events-and-the-window-object
  359. # [10:29] <Philip`> hsivonen: but md5(original-font-file + list-of-characters-in-subset) seems like it should work fine
  360. # [10:30] <Philip`> jgraham: Doesn't the non-ligatured version look uglier with its narrow separated 'f's? :-)
  361. # [10:31] <zcorpan> Philip`: yep, i'm filing a bug about it
  362. # [10:33] <Philip`> zcorpan: Okay, thanks
  363. # [10:33] <annevk> Hixie, I see
  364. # [10:34] <annevk> I updated http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML5_Presentations by the way, but I think it's far from complete
  365. # [10:34] <annevk> maybe I should ask on the blog if people want to contribute to it
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  367. # [10:35] <jgraham> Philip`: No, I think it looks better
  368. # [10:35] <jgraham> :p
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  370. # [10:44] * annevk finds http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/HTML4.0/comments.html
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  372. # [10:46] * Quits: pauld_ (n=pauld@92.40.1.20.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  373. # [10:49] <Philip`> "In printed form, the HTML 4.0 draft is about 265 printed pages long, and it still contains empty parts to be added later. Compared with the about 77 pages of HTML 2.0, this exhibits an intolerable trend." - seems like the trend is still continuing
  374. # [10:50] * Joins: webben_ (n=webben@nat/yahoo/session)
  375. # [10:55] <hsivonen> looks like Yucca has noticed the bogosity of the term 'internationalization' back then
  376. # [10:56] <hsivonen> 'Multilingual support should be labeled as such, or as language-specific support, not as "internationalization". (Typically, multilingualism is important for national documents, whereas most international documents use just English.) '
  377. # [10:57] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
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  379. # [10:59] <hsivonen> is the part about "Further replacements for EM might be something like the following: " serious and not demonstrating the absurdity of semantics?
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  381. # [11:03] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  382. # [11:12] <annevk> if you ignore the RDF bit http://www.w3.org/2005/Talks/05-steven-xtech/ could basically be a talk about HTML5 :)
  383. # [11:13] * Joins: othree (n=othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw)
  384. # [11:14] <hsivonen> annevk: not really. "As generic XML as possible: if a facility exists in XML, try to use that rather than duplicating it."
  385. # [11:15] <annevk> oh right, I should've mentioned excluding that line too
  386. # [11:15] <annevk> though actually I think we have
  387. # [11:15] <annevk> we are using SVG and MathML rather than inventing new vector and math markup
  388. # [11:15] <annevk> we encourage people to use xml:lang and xml:base in the XML serialization
  389. # [11:16] <annevk> though maybe I'm twisting things too much now :)
  390. # [11:17] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  391. # [11:17] <hsivonen> xml:base might be a bit mistake, but I guess it's too late to get rid of it now
  392. # [11:17] <Hixie> xml:base makes sense in machine-generated xml environments
  393. # [11:17] <Hixie> it's a pain on the web
  394. # [11:18] <hsivonen> actually, xml:base is just one of the many things that flow out of the problem of URIs being too long
  395. # [11:20] <Hixie> not really
  396. # [11:20] <Hixie> doesn't matter how long urls are, sometimes relative urls are a good thing
  397. # [11:22] <Hixie> uncs are pretty terse, and they'd still need xml:base if you generated compound documents from unrelated bits
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  402. # [12:02] <annevk> my weblog no fails to render properly in all stable releases of browsers
  403. # [12:02] <annevk> zen
  404. # [12:02] <annevk> s/no/now/
  405. # [12:03] <virtuelv> also "SVG sucks"
  406. # [12:03] <annevk> thanks to zcorpan, rubys, and Robbert Broersma
  407. # [12:04] <zcorpan> oooh
  408. # [12:04] <virtuelv> annevk: you should've used a web font
  409. # [12:04] <annevk> virtuelv, I use two
  410. # [12:04] <virtuelv> not in the logo?
  411. # [12:04] <annevk> how's that?
  412. # [12:05] <annevk> name me a font that can render the logo :)
  413. # [12:05] <annevk> (Weblog 4.2 is rendered using a normal font though)
  414. # [12:05] <virtuelv> annevk: make your own :D
  415. # [12:06] <annevk> I think using SVG is cheaper ;)
  416. # [12:06] <hsivonen> annevk: SVG fonts!
  417. # [12:07] * Quits: VeXocide (i=vexocide@snail.stack.nl) ("Lost terminal")
  418. # [12:07] <virtuelv> there's also something odd about an image of Mandrake next to a screenshot from Ubuntu
  419. # [12:07] <virtuelv> you should replace it with a trace of Mark Shuttleworth
  420. # [12:07] <virtuelv> svg, of course
  421. # [12:07] <annevk> you can do that on your own blog ;)
  422. # [12:08] <virtuelv> meh, neh
  423. # [12:08] <virtuelv> I'll keep the orange to annoy a co-worker
  424. # [12:09] <Hixie> svg fonts from the html would be a pretty awesome way to do it
  425. # [12:09] <Hixie> if you want things to not work
  426. # [12:09] <Hixie> :-)
  427. # [12:09] <zcorpan> annevk: what did Robbert Broersma do, btw?
  428. # [12:09] <annevk> that actually works in Safari and Opera I think, might even be in Safari 3.1
  429. # [12:09] <annevk> zcorpan, making the menu in CSS ages ago
  430. # [12:10] <zcorpan> annevk: ah ok
  431. # [12:10] <annevk> though he hadn't done the font embedding hting
  432. # [12:10] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host81-130-11-234.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  433. # [12:11] <annevk> it seems Opera requires a reload for SVG images loaded through the content property when the content property is applied to an element?
  434. # [12:11] <annevk> o_O
  435. # [12:12] <annevk> also, the daddy font doesn't work in Opera 10 but does in non-branched stuff
  436. # [12:12] <annevk> hmm
  437. # [12:12] <zcorpan> annevk: seems to work for me
  438. # [12:13] <zcorpan> oh wait
  439. # [12:13] <zcorpan> yeah i get the first bug
  440. # [12:14] <annevk> the font thing might be Linux only
  441. # [12:16] <zcorpan> annevk: should i file a bug for the reload thing?
  442. # [12:17] <annevk> please
  443. # [12:21] <annevk> zcorpan, it seems to be a bug for 'content' on ::after as well
  444. # [12:21] <annevk> zcorpan, so it's slightly less weird I suppose
  445. # [12:28] <zcorpan> it just doesn't happen for daddy.svg?
  446. # [12:33] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  447. # [12:33] <annevk> zcorpan, it does
  448. # [12:33] <annevk> at least, when I tested again in core-2.3...
  449. # [12:35] <zcorpan> weird, doesn't happen for me
  450. # [12:42] <Lachy> annevk, why doesn't Opera 10 render the web font for the left navigation menu?
  451. # [12:42] <Lachy> it looks like only webkit is getting that right
  452. # [12:42] <annevk> might be a Mac issue
  453. # [12:42] <annevk> it does on Linux
  454. # [12:42] <Lachy> ok. I'll try windows
  455. # [12:45] <Philip`> Someone ought to write a web browser that isn't rubbish
  456. # [12:45] <Philip`> If you could write a web page and it would actually work, that'd be a great step forward
  457. # [12:45] <Lachy> Philip`, we're hiring if you would like to help with that :-)
  458. # [12:47] <Philip`> Lachy: Sadly I've got a PhD I need to finish first, which will keep me occupied for the next couple of years :-)
  459. # [12:48] <Lachy> what topic are you doing your PhD on?
  460. # [12:48] <Philip`> It's some kind of network routing stuff
  461. # [12:55] <annevk> zcorpan, weird indeed, because now it does load again...
  462. # [12:57] <zcorpan> annevk: now i could reproduce the :after bug in opera 10
  463. # [12:58] * zcorpan confused
  464. # [13:00] * Joins: VeXocide (i=vexocide@snail.stack.nl)
  465. # [13:01] <annevk> cc rune and let him figure it out? :)
  466. # [13:01] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host81-130-11-234.in-addr.btopenworld.com) ("Gone for a burton")
  467. # [13:02] <Lachy> annevk, the menu font works on windows, so it must be a Mac bug
  468. # [13:02] * jgraham likes the way that Philip` is so vauge about his PhD
  469. # [13:03] <Philip`> jgraham: That's because I don't really know what I'm doing :-p
  470. # [13:04] <zcorpan> Philip`: or because you can figure it out when you start working on it?
  471. # [13:04] <Philip`> zcorpan: I've been working on it for a year already :-)
  472. # [13:04] <zcorpan> Philip`: ah. how far have you come?
  473. # [13:05] * jgraham found that a lot of his PhD was thinking of cool things that would be useful then finding that they were too hard to actually do so doing easier but less cool things instead
  474. # [13:06] <jgraham> Also PhD-related protip: never ask PhD students how far thay have got.
  475. # [13:07] <Philip`> I'm working as part of a smallish group (about six people), so mostly I've been learning what other people have been doing and writing some code to make things work and planning what I ought to spend the next couple of years working on :-)
  476. # [13:07] <jgraham> (If you don't understand why go waste an afternnon reading Piled Higher and Deeper sometime)
  477. # [13:07] <jgraham> http://www.phdcomics.com/
  478. # [13:10] <annevk> Lachy, can you file it, since you have a Mac and all? :)
  479. # [13:11] <annevk> my Macbook is elsewhere atm
  480. # [13:11] <Lachy> ok, I'll add it to my list of other bugs I really need to get filed today
  481. # [13:13] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
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  483. # [13:21] <annevk> Opera's fallback for 'content' is also screwed I notice, but I think it might be per the current draft, but not per the agreed upon changes to the current draft
  484. # [13:21] <annevk> might be correct*
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  487. # [13:29] <Hixie> nn
  488. # [13:29] <annevk> g'night
  489. # [13:40] <Lachy> what's the best way to make a test case for a web font that relies on the correct rendering of the downloaded font, and still make it clear what the result should look like?
  490. # [13:41] <Lachy> should I just include an image of the font in the TC for testers to compare it with?
  491. # [13:41] <hsivonen> Lachy: depends on how complex the determination of "correct" is
  492. # [13:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: for mere @font-face presence checking, you could use the Ahem trick Hixie used for Acid 3
  493. # [13:43] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  494. # [13:45] <annevk> Lachy, does it rely on correct rendering? you could e.g. say "The following two lines should have different fonts" "line 1" "line 2" first styled with font-family:custom,serif and the second with font-family:serif
  495. # [13:45] <zcorpan> Philip`: you could make the bogus 404 url redirect to the eot (or make a copy of the eot file with the bogus file name)
  496. # [13:45] <annevk> for correct rendering a screenshot would be best I suppose
  497. # [13:45] <zcorpan> Philip`: basically the same idea as http://annevankesteren.nl/2005/10/ie-import-hack
  498. # [13:48] * annevk reads that post again and almost gets upset again by the comments
  499. # [13:49] <annevk> aah, a fresh Firefox nightly renders the fonts for the menu and heading correct, but it doesn't do any of the content property thingies
  500. # [13:50] <annevk> and thanks to the new style rules for the search form it no longer overflows, but I think that's a bug with the new style rules :)
  501. # [13:50] <annevk> (i.e. not something that was fixed)
  502. # [13:51] <zcorpan> annevk: that would be min-width on body
  503. # [13:53] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host81-130-11-234.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  504. # [13:53] <hsivonen> annevk: is there any UA that renders your new blog heading correctly?
  505. # [13:53] <annevk> Opera 10 alpha after a refresh
  506. # [13:54] <annevk> though maybe only on non-Mac platforms
  507. # [13:54] <hsivonen> I see. Refrest fixed your name but "Weblog 4.2" is still ugly
  508. # [13:54] <hsivonen> *Refresh
  509. # [13:55] <annevk> yeah, apparently that font doesn't work well on Mac yet
  510. # [13:55] <hsivonen> annevk: some weird TTF tables?
  511. # [13:55] <hsivonen> or lack thereof?
  512. # [13:55] * annevk is a font noob
  513. # [13:55] <annevk> Lachy will find a bug so supposedly I'll find out when they debug it :)
  514. # [13:56] <annevk> s/find a bug/file a bug/
  515. # [13:56] <annevk> duh
  516. # [14:00] <Philip`> Lachy: You could make the downloaded font a serif one, and the page's default font a sans-serif one, and say "This line should have a serif font", and hope the testers understand what that means
  517. # [14:00] <hsivonen> annevk: I disagree about the gracefulness of the degradation of the blog title
  518. # [14:00] <Philip`> http://www.webfonts.info/wiki/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7 seems a nice way of testing specific font-rendering features
  519. # [14:01] <hsivonen> annevk: "Kesteren" is virtually unreadable in Firefox 3.0.x
  520. # [14:01] <Philip`> (The font is set up so that e.g. the string "ab" is treated as a ligature and rendered as "liga [tick]" if it's working correctly)
  521. # [14:02] <hsivonen> why is "TEST" blinking in Firefox?
  522. # [14:02] <hsivonen> annevk: whoa! you actually used text-decoration: blink!!!
  523. # [14:03] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-69-101.dynamic.amis.net)
  524. # [14:03] <annevk> hsivonen, with graceful I meant that you can read the content, not that the heading is necessarily usable
  525. # [14:03] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  526. # [14:04] <Philip`> zcorpan: I currently like the idea of having people download the font files and copy them onto their own web server, which should be as easy as possible and shouldn't involve setting up redirects or crazy filenames
  527. # [14:04] <annevk> ah yeah, the text-decoration effect only works in Firefox, guess no browser gets it right then :D
  528. # [14:04] <hsivonen> in my pending redesign, I'm using CSS generated content with a PUA character for <hr>s. Is that theoretically pure enough or are PUA chars always theoretically wrong?
  529. # [14:05] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de)
  530. # [14:05] <annevk> seems to me that stuff inside CSS shouldn't matter
  531. # [14:05] <hsivonen> the result is OK without CSS or with CSS when @font-face is supported
  532. # [14:05] <hsivonen> but it doesn't with CSS without @font-face
  533. # [14:06] <annevk> I gave up on making that combination work
  534. # [14:06] <annevk> quite fast
  535. # [14:06] <annevk> my criteria was that it had to be usable, not pretty
  536. # [14:10] <annevk> it's a CSS problem, just as with different fonts, you want to apply a different set of CSS rules when 'content' fails to apply, but you can't
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  539. # [14:15] <zcorpan> seems webkit doesn't apply the font for daddy.svg when used in 'content'
  540. # [14:16] <zcorpan> the 'find' button is also misplaced for some reason
  541. # [14:17] <annevk> simonw once had this CSS series called "CSS ain't Rocket Science"
  542. # [14:18] * Philip` sees CORE-17018 already exists about format("opentype") in Opera
  543. # [14:18] <hsivonen> annevk: you should also use some rounded corners :-)
  544. # [14:19] <Philip`> annevk: You should write your entire page upside-down, and then use CSS Transformations to turn it round again
  545. # [14:22] <annevk> in half a year or so I'll add some transforms and transitions
  546. # [14:22] <annevk> to increase the menu buttons for instance
  547. # [14:22] <annevk> hsivonen, they are passe :p
  548. # [14:23] <hsivonen> annevk: passé or not, you could use some dotted rounded corners. they don't work right in any of the top 4 browsers
  549. # [14:23] <hsivonen> double works in Gecko but sucks in WebKit
  550. # [14:24] <annevk> under the assumption layout developers want my blog to render correctly? :)
  551. # [14:25] <hsivonen> of course
  552. # [14:26] <zcorpan> hsivonen: if you go too far ahead then they'll ignore the whole thing :)
  553. # [14:32] * Quits: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no) (Remote closed the connection)
  554. # [14:34] <Lachy> I don't understand this font bug. The fonts work on http://fonts.philip.html5.org/ but not when I download them and load them from localhost
  555. # [14:35] <annevk> do fonts work from localhost at all?
  556. # [14:37] * Joins: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no)
  557. # [14:37] <Lachy> They should. I'm running Apache, not just using file:///
  558. # [14:38] * Quits: pergj (n=pergj@home.kvaleberg.no) (Client Quit)
  559. # [14:38] <annevk> k
  560. # [14:40] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de) (Remote closed the connection)
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  563. # [14:49] <Lachy> it seems to be either falling back to some sans-serif font that looks a lot like Helvetica, or it is using Helvetica with a narrower letter-spacing
  564. # [15:00] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@118-92-158-39.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("Leaving")
  565. # [15:03] <Philip`> Lachy: Try checking Apache's access_log to see if the fonts are actually being downloaded?
  566. # [15:04] <Lachy> ok, I'll have to find out where they're stored
  567. # [15:04] <Philip`> Lachy: Also, are these the fonts which are used on the index page there, or the fonts that are generated when you click the button?
  568. # [15:05] <Philip`> Lachy: If it's Linuxish then it's probably /var/log/apache/access_log
  569. # [15:05] <Philip`> s/apache/apache2/
  570. # [15:05] <Lachy> I downloaded one of the fonts you're using on the page
  571. # [15:06] <Lachy> but my TC is using Anne's font though
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  586. # [16:52] <Philip`> Lachy: Okay - I was just thinking you might need to be careful when downloading the fonts used on the index page, since they're gzipped regardless of whether your UA sends Accept-Encoding
  587. # [16:53] <Philip`> (I should probably set up mod_gzip properly instead)
  588. # [16:53] <Lachy> Philip`, I used wget to download it. I assume it would have unzipped it for me
  589. # [16:55] * Joins: VeXocide (i=vexocide@snail.stack.nl)
  590. # [16:56] <Philip`> $ wget http://fonts.philip.html5.org/indexfonts/3a3846bc220dd7f0aadb8b12d839e6f4.ttf
  591. # [16:56] <Philip`> $ file 3a3846bc220dd7f0aadb8b12d839e6f4.ttf
  592. # [16:56] <Philip`> 3a3846bc220dd7f0aadb8b12d839e6f4.ttf: gzip compressed data
  593. # [16:56] <Philip`> $ gzip -cd 3a3846bc220dd7f0aadb8b12d839e6f4.ttf|file -
  594. # [16:56] <Philip`> /dev/stdin: TrueType font data
  595. # [16:56] <Philip`> So, wget doesn't unzip it for you
  596. # [16:57] <Philip`> Those filenames are a bit ugly, really
  597. # [17:00] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp195.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  598. # [17:04] <Lachy> why do you use such ugly file names?
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  601. # [17:09] <Philip`> Lachy: I needed something unique, so I just used an MD5 of the font name and the included characters
  602. # [17:10] <Philip`> Lachy: and it would be a bad idea to use the original font's filename, because then the subsets would get confused with each other and with the original
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  608. # [17:27] <hsivonen> Philip`, Lachy: it seems gzip works as a copying deterrent after all :-)
  609. # [17:28] <Philip`> hsivonen: But it only deters competent users who know about wget, not normal users who would paste the URL into their browser, so it's not a hugely effective deterrent :-p
  610. # [17:29] <Philip`> ...at least when it's just HTTP gzip compressed transmission
  611. # [17:29] <Philip`> If the actual files were distributed as compressed data, over an uncompressed HTTP transmission, then it would indeed be more effective :-)
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  615. # [17:40] <Lachy> Philip`, it works in WebKit when I unzip the file.
  616. # [17:40] * Joins: fishd (n=Darin@nat/google/x-c784a3fd9cee7e7d)
  617. # [17:43] <Lachy> That test partially works in Opera too, except only some of the letters rendered using that font.
  618. # [17:45] <Lachy> oh, Opera has trouble rendering strings comprising all 26 letters in the right font, though it works better if I put in a few spaces
  619. # [17:47] <Lachy> ah, I see. once Opera hits a character not included in the web font, it won't revert back to that font for subsequent letters until after a space
  620. # [17:49] * Quits: svl_ (n=chatzill@194.109.2.86) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  621. # [17:50] * Philip` hopes the sensible thing to do with Apple Advanced Typographic tables in fonts is simply to delete them, as an attempt to promote cross-platformness
  622. # [17:50] <Lachy> Philip`, are the font files you're serving from that page completely valid, or are they likely to contain errors?
  623. # [17:50] <Lachy> I mean the ones you're using, not the copies the generator will spit out
  624. # [17:51] <Philip`> (and keep the OpenType tables which allow similar functionality, and are supported on Windows and Linux and apparently at least partly on OS X, so hopefully the world will converge on that)
  625. # [17:51] <Philip`> Lachy: The ones on the index page are spat out by the generator too
  626. # [17:51] <Philip`> Lachy: so they're likely to have similar bugs
  627. # [17:51] <Lachy> ok. Is there a font validator somewhere?
  628. # [17:52] <Philip`> Use the font and write some text, and if it looks okay then it's valid enough :-)
  629. # [17:52] <Philip`> I'm not aware of any tools that do any kind of comprehensive checking
  630. # [17:53] <Lachy> ok. Perhaps someone (you!) should develop one, so we can help reduce the occurrence of erroneous fonts occuring on the web once webfonts take off
  631. # [17:53] <Philip`> but I'm pretty sure the subsetted fonts I'm generating are buggy
  632. # [17:54] <Lachy> which tool are you using to generate them?
  633. # [17:54] <Philip`> It doesn't seem so useful to have a validator for fonts since they're all generated by software, so there won't be millions of people introducing millions of syntax errors
  634. # [17:55] <Philip`> I'm using the Font::TTF Perl module, plus a load of custom code that strips out lots of glyphs and then tries to update all the internal references to be consistent
  635. # [17:55] <Lachy> having validators will still allow people to check that the fonts their tools are generating are valid and will help the developers of those tools find and fix bugs
  636. # [17:56] <gsnedders> Lachy: Assuming the validator works correctly
  637. # [17:56] <Lachy> and it will also help browser vendors diagnose bugs
  638. # [17:56] <Lachy> Validators should exist for image and video formats too.
  639. # [17:57] <Lachy> (I did find one for MP4 once, but it cost thousands of dollars and was aimed at the pro market)
  640. # [17:59] <jgraham> gsnedders: BTW Black Box Recorder (music)
  641. # [17:59] <gsnedders> jgraham: What?
  642. # [17:59] <jgraham> Bands you should lsten to. Black Box Recorder
  643. # [17:59] <gsnedders> ah
  644. # [18:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: http://se.youtube.com/watch?v=FP-2VLQEv4c
  645. # [18:01] <zcorpan> http://browsershots.org/http://annevankesteren.nl/
  646. # [18:03] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  647. # [18:04] <Philip`> http://www.adobe.com/devnet/opentype/afdko/ includes TTX, which converts fonts to an XML format, which can be useful for debugging
  648. # [18:06] * Philip` is attempting to more comprehensively look through all the interesting OpenType tables, to work out which ones he really needs to process and which can just be ignored or dropped
  649. # [18:06] <Philip`> and then I should be more confident that I'm producing correct output
  650. # [18:06] <Philip`> (The main problem is forgetting to update all the references to glyphs that have been removed)
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  652. # [18:08] <gsnedders> Philip`: n00b
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  656. # [18:11] <Philip`> gsnedders: If you want to read http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/gsub.htm and let me know exactly how to keep everything consistent when some glyphs are removed, please feel free :-)
  657. # [18:12] <gsnedders> Nah
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  659. # [18:17] <gsnedders> Oh shit.
  660. # [18:18] <gsnedders> I said I'd do one thing for Hixie by today.
  661. # [18:19] <Philip`> One thing in particular, or just any thing?
  662. # [18:20] * jgraham starts humming 'I'd do anything' or whatever that song from 'Oliver' is called
  663. # [18:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: Anolis template
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  696. # [20:33] <Hixie> gsnedders: i think i have an idea for how to do cross-spec references btw
  697. # [20:33] <takkaria> any opera people around?
  698. # [20:33] <Hixie> without having to load both specs
  699. # [20:33] <gsnedders> Hixie: How?
  700. # [20:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: and: email.
  701. # [20:34] <Hixie> just have a declaration mechanism that "imports" some names
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  706. # [21:00] <Hixie> Lachy: yt?
  707. # [21:00] <Hixie> annevk: yt?
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  710. # [21:04] <annevk> am now
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  712. # [21:13] <takkaria> annevk: do you know who deals with the applications for jobs at opera?
  713. # [21:13] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0059.html I hope no market leader will ever attempt to natively support XHTML2; that'll become a huge mess to sort out
  714. # [21:14] <annevk> takkaria, HR department
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  717. # [21:16] <annevk> takkaria, they'll pass it along to the appropriate people who will then get back to you (I think it works like that more or less)
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  719. # [21:18] <takkaria> right, ta
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  722. # [21:28] * gsnedders has one slight issue wrt applying to Opera
  723. # [21:28] <gsnedders> I don't know if I'm going to take a gap year or not; if I don't I could get a summer internship, if I do I could try and get a job for nearer a year
  724. # [21:29] <annevk> you can apply for a summer internship and if you like it and we like you stay for a year
  725. # [21:29] <dglazkov> gsnedders: apply to Google :)
  726. # [21:29] <annevk> that sentence requires another you and a comma, but you get the idea
  727. # [21:30] <gsnedders> annevk: If I take a gap year, I really need to be around in the UK running off to places all the time in September, which makes it rather not sensible to start before Oct.
  728. # [21:31] <gsnedders> dglazkov: And quite how low are my chances at getting a job without a degree? :)
  729. # [21:31] <annevk> gsnedders, planes exist for a reason
  730. # [21:31] <dglazkov> gsnedders: a degree of what? ;)
  731. # [21:32] <gsnedders> annevk: Yeah, but taking, say, four weeks off might not make me popular :)
  732. # [21:32] <gsnedders> dglazkov: Oh, I dunno. A university one? :)
  733. # [21:32] <Lachy> Hixie, yo
  734. # [21:32] <annevk> gsnedders, it doesn't seem like a huge deal to me
  735. # [21:33] <annevk> gsnedders, finished your internship, go home, and then come back again later to work on something else...
  736. # [21:33] <dglazkov> universities are just deprecated facilities for teaching young people about procrastination and the value of borrowing someone else's work :)
  737. # [21:33] <gsnedders> annevk: Also, I'm not really meant to apply for the internship until I'm enrolled in a uni course :P
  738. # [21:33] <hsivonen> hmm. the deadline for comments on CSS3 Web Fonts is 2002-08-30
  739. # [21:34] <gsnedders> dglazkov: But pretty much everything in this industry requires a degree :(
  740. # [21:34] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Think you can make that, then?
  741. # [21:34] <dglazkov> gsnedders: :(
  742. # [21:35] <Philip`> hsivonen: Perhaps you want http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/ instead? :-)
  743. # [21:35] <annevk> hsivonen, it's being moved back to WD
  744. # [21:35] <annevk> hsivonen, and you want the URL Philip` points out
  745. # [21:35] <hsivonen> thanks
  746. # [21:36] <gsnedders> annevk: Also, if I take a gap year, it'd be nice to have a couple of months at the start to try and do all these damned things I keep saying I'll do
  747. # [21:42] <gsnedders> (If anyone wants to hire me for Oct–Aug/Sep, let me know :P)
  748. # [21:42] <annevk> gsnedders, so start later, or convince someone at Opera to pay for it :)
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  750. # [21:44] <gsnedders> annevk: A fair amount of the things it is almost certain that Opera wouldn't :)
  751. # [21:45] <Hixie> ok time to get ready. bbl.
  752. # [21:46] <annevk> gsnedders, it almost seems like you don't want to apply
  753. # [21:47] <Philip`> gsnedders: I'll hire you, as long as you don't expect any financial compensation for your time
  754. # [21:47] <gsnedders> annevk: I'm indecisive :P
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The end :)