/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-01-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jan 25 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:26] <Hixie> jruderman: what's document.load()?
  5. # [00:28] <jruderman> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/document.load i guess
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  7. # [00:35] <Hixie> oh, dom3 l&s should be ignored :-)
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  12. # [00:41] <hendry> http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pixies/2008/04/28/crops_question_pixie.jpg
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  14. # [00:52] <jruderman> Hixie: i noticed that html5 defines a few quirks mode behaviors. are you going to try to define most/all of them?
  15. # [00:52] <jruderman> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Mozilla_Quirks_Mode_Behavior
  16. # [00:52] <jruderman> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=475191 made me wonder
  17. # [00:55] <jruderman> oh "Some obsolete legacy attributes parse colors in a more complicated manner."
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  19. # [00:56] <Hixie> the idea is for the spec to be a complete description of how to implement a user agent (web browser, command line tool, search engine, whatever) in a manner that is compatible with existing content
  20. # [00:56] <karlcow> jruderman: there was partial implementation of DOM 3 Load and Save in Firefox, opera betas and Konqueror in… 2005 at least if I remember correctly
  21. # [00:56] <Hixie> so that no implementor ever feels the need to do anything not in the spec for compatibility
  22. # [00:57] <karlcow> the products implementing it were Xerces, X-Hive, pxdom
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  24. # [00:58] <jruderman> Hixie: so a quirk shared by all modern browsers is likely to get included
  25. # [00:58] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/2003/10/DOM-Level-3-LS-implementations.html
  26. # [01:00] <Philip`> jruderman: I believe zcorpan looked at quirks-mode colour parsing a while ago
  27. # [01:01] <Philip`> jruderman: http://simon.html5.org/test/html/rendering/color-attributes/ and http://simon.html5.org/specs/html-color-attributes might be relevant
  28. # [01:03] <Hixie> jruderman: yeah. and hopefully the browsers will all converge on one set of (standardised) quirks
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  30. # [01:06] <jruderman> Philip`: nice, thanks
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  84. # [13:50] <gsnedders> Hmm… Coding, or "The Time Traveller's Wife"…
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  86. # [14:43] <Philip`> gsnedders: I suggest playing games instead
  87. # [14:58] <Philip`> Every time I think my font stuff is working, I find more brokenness :-(
  88. # [14:59] <Philip`> Currently a font containing just "i" fails to draw the character's dot in Firefox on Linux
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  91. # [15:15] <hsivonen> sigh. font-variant: small-caps; interaction with @font-face is borked in Gecko, WebKit and Presto
  92. # [15:17] <Philip`> Ooh, I made a font that crashes Firefox
  93. # [15:17] <Philip`> (on Linux)
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  95. # [15:39] <Philip`> ...though interestingly it crashes when the text is 2em, but not when it's 1em
  96. # [15:40] <wilhelm_> Feel free to send me a list of the webfonts issues you find in Presto, and I'll follow up.
  97. # [15:44] <hsivonen> wilhelm_: Presto seems to have a bug analogous to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=475240
  98. # [15:44] <hsivonen> (WebKit, too.)
  99. # [15:44] <hsivonen> the test case isn't great, since it depends on another bug being present (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=458634)
  100. # [15:48] <hsivonen> test case now fixed
  101. # [15:48] <wilhelm_> Thanks.
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  109. # [17:09] <Philip`> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0080.html - "we were on a presentational-markup-purge kick for a while a few years ago." - hmm, does that mean they don't really mind presentational markup now?
  110. # [17:14] <Lachy> perhaps it means that some are starting to realise that a overzealous separation of semantics and presentation doesn't really solve any problems and can make the resulting language impractical in some cases
  111. # [17:26] <Philip`> It's really confusing writing code containing Hebrew/Arabic text, because my text editor likes replacing "{" and "(" with "}" and ")" when they're adjacent to RTL text
  112. # [17:31] <Philip`> roc: I see that Firefox isn't clever enough to handle "i<span style=color:red>&#x300;</span>" correctly :-(
  113. # [17:37] * Joins: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  114. # [17:40] <Lachy> Philip`, that depends what you consider to be the correct rendering.
  115. # [17:41] <Lachy> at least Firefox combines them correctly, even if it doesn't get the color right. Opera gets the color correct, but doesn't combine them
  116. # [17:41] <Philip`> Lachy: Clearly it should be an &igrave; but the accent should be red
  117. # [17:42] <Lachy> if that's possible to implement, then sure.
  118. # [17:43] <Philip`> I don't care about whether it's possible to implement
  119. # [17:43] <Philip`> That's just an implementation detail
  120. # [17:44] <Philip`> Actually I'd be pretty surprised if it really was possible to implement
  121. # [17:45] <Lachy> it depends if it gets rendered as two separate glyphs overlayed on each other, or whether it gets rendered as the single i with grave character
  122. # [17:49] <Philip`> In the font I'm testing with, the font contains instructions that say i followed by combining-grave should cause the i to be replaced with a dotless-i glyph, and then gives instructions on how to position the combining-grave relative to the dotless-i
  123. # [17:50] <Philip`> which I suppose wouldn't make it as impossible to implement as it would be if i plus combining-grave was replaced with a single i-grave glyph which is composed of the dotless-i glyph and the grave glyph
  124. # [17:50] <Philip`> (which I think is what some other fonts do)
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  126. # [18:26] <Philip`> Hmm, excellent - IE8 appears to render ligatures when my content is on a remote server, but fails to do so when exactly the same content is on my local server
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  136. # [19:22] <roc> a lot of fonts have precomposed forms for common accented characters
  137. # [19:24] <roc> but you're right, we don't style the parts differently even when we could.
  138. # [19:25] <roc> still, the most important thing is that the combining marks be combined properly, which we do get right while other browsers (with the possible exception of IE?) do not.
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  142. # [19:54] <Philip`> roc: IE doesn't seem to combine them properly - it draws an i with a dot and the accent
  143. # [19:55] <Philip`> As far as I can tell, WebKit pre-composes the combining marks with the previous character into a single codepoint before passing it to the font renderer
  144. # [19:55] <Philip`> (at least in cases like i-grave where there is a pre-composed codepoint it can use)
  145. # [19:57] <Philip`> (and at least on OS X; it seems to just go crazy on Windows)
  146. # [19:58] <olliej> Philip`: have you filed bugs? :D
  147. # [19:58] <gsnedders> olliej: Of course not :P
  148. # [19:59] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  149. # [19:59] <Philip`> olliej: No, I've just moaned on IRC :-)
  150. # [20:00] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tests/font/combining-chars.html
  151. # [20:00] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tests/font/combining-chars-safari-win.png
  152. # [20:00] <Philip`> are the problem, I think
  153. # [20:01] <Philip`> so I suppose I should stop being so lazy, and just file the bug :-)
  154. # [20:14] <Philip`> Oh, it works in WebKit nightlies
  155. # [20:19] <olliej> Philip`: victory!
  156. # [20:30] <Philip`> olliej: Don't think you'll get away with it that easily!
  157. # [20:32] <olliej> dammit
  158. # [20:32] <olliej> i had such hope :D
  159. # [20:35] * annevk wonders if CSS defines rendering for i<span style=position:absolute;top:100px>&#x300;</span>
  160. # [20:35] * annevk assumes it does not
  161. # [20:37] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/tests/font/combining-chars-2.html - now what's all that about?
  162. # [20:38] <Philip`> In Safari on Windows, all the hashes in the second line have vanished
  163. # [21:26] <annevk> http://webbackplane.com/mark-birbeck/blog/2009/01/rdfa-means-extensibility o_O
  164. # [21:27] <annevk> "The WHATWG for example are pursuing a much more monolithic approach with HTML5; they see no need for extension points, since the language itself will cover everything."
  165. # [21:29] <annevk> He doesn't even explain what the concerns are with the RDF approach, just some musings on that the microformats and WHATWG community are against it
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  167. # [21:32] <Dashiva> adding a footer element to a language takes time, and requires jumping through all sorts of hoops (...) But adding a footer role value takes no time at all, and you don't need to ask anyone.
  168. # [21:34] <Dashiva> How to reconcile this with "we need namespaces for everything to avoid collisions"
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  171. # [21:43] <takkaria> hm, Drupal is incorporating RDFa
  172. # [21:43] <takkaria> with faux-namespaces
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  177. # [23:02] <Dashiva> Two lastweek entries in a row without references to bodily functions, oh ho
  178. # [23:26] <Philip`> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7850173.stm - "... The disk, which was mislaid in December by courier firm TNT, contained names, salaries, national insurance numbers and bank account numbers. But the British Council said the data could not be accessed as the disk was securely encrypted."
  179. # [23:27] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64)
  180. # [23:27] <Philip`> It seems pretty silly to complain about people losing data when the data was encrypted
  181. # [23:27] <Philip`> because the whole point of encryption is that it doesn't matter if other people end up with a copy of your data
  182. # [23:28] <Philip`> and if you complain anyway, you remove the PR incentive for people to use encryption
  183. # [23:28] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  184. # [23:30] <danbri> there's some pretty lame encryption around though
  185. # [23:32] <danbri> & there are tools like http://www.softsea.com/review/Zip-Key.html if the encryption uses a lame password
  186. # [23:32] <Philip`> I suppose that's a good point
  187. # [23:33] <Philip`> but it seems the more reliable solution is to make sure you have decent encryption and decent passwords, rather than attempting to stop humans losing discs
  188. # [23:33] <Philip`> but then the encryption process has to be set up and maintained by humans, who will probably do it wrong
  189. # [23:33] <Philip`> We should just get rid of humans
  190. # [23:34] <Philip`> and as a bonus there wouldn't be any people whose data you could store and then lose
  191. # [23:42] <annevk> there's a fallacy in there somewhere
  192. # [23:42] <hsivonen> so many @font-face bugs in so many browsers :-(
  193. # [23:47] * Philip` has given up trying to make his test page work on OS X without crashing
  194. # [23:47] <Dashiva> hsivonen: They're outsourcing the QA
  195. # [23:47] <Dashiva> (to you)
  196. # [23:52] <Philip`> Oh, and now Firefox is rendering the word "Deja" with no dot on the j :-/
  197. # [23:52] <Philip`> (s/Firefox/Pango/ probably)
  198. # [23:52] * Quits: roc (n=roc@222-152-171-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
  199. # [23:52] <Philip`> Seems like there's a lot of cases where the OpenType spec doesn't prohibit weird things, but implementations break if you do those weird things
  200. # [23:52] <Philip`> e.g. if you have empty glyph-classes
  201. # [23:54] <hsivonen> we need OpenType5, clearly
  202. # [23:59] <Philip`> Or we need to only have experts producing OpenType files
  203. # Session Close: Mon Jan 26 00:00:00 2009

The end :)