/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-01-27 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 27 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  4. # [00:06] <Hixie> i love when i'm trying to work out what i should spec in some edge case and the browser i use to find out what The Platform does today... crashes
  5. # [00:08] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  6. # [00:11] <gsnedders> Hixie: So, I take it you decide to not copy that behaviour, then?
  7. # [00:12] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-0c603d391693764a) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  8. # [00:13] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  9. # [00:39] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64) ("Leaving")
  10. # [00:41] <annevk> http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/?p=977#comment-176228
  11. # [00:42] * Joins: doublec (n=Chris_Do@202.0.36.64)
  12. # [00:47] <Lachy> MikeSmith, yt?
  13. # [00:48] <MikeSmith> yeah
  14. # [00:48] <Lachy> it looks like all you did to write the audience section was to move the vague, overly broad statement from the scope section to a new audience section. That doeesn't make it any less vague or overly broad
  15. # [00:49] <Hixie> it's no broader than html5's, the problem now is just that the spec itself is far too narrow to match the given audience statement
  16. # [00:50] <Lachy> MikeSmith, is there a public CVS repo for your spec
  17. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> Lachy: No. That's an issue with hosting anything on www.w3.org. Which is why I think dev.w3.org is better
  18. # [00:59] <MikeSmith> I guess I need to just move it over to dev.w3.org
  19. # [01:00] <MikeSmith> and I need to push for getting some more horsepower behind dev.w3.org to address that problems that systeam has pointed out
  20. # [01:00] * heycam wonders what specs dev.w3.org has
  21. # [01:01] <Lachy> heycam, lots from WebApps, HTML, and CSS WGs
  22. # [01:01] <heycam> as in speed/memory, not which web specifications :)
  23. # [01:01] <Lachy> oh
  24. # [01:01] <Hixie> you gotta admit, that was an ambiguous query :-P
  25. # [01:02] <heycam> yeah =)
  26. # [01:02] <MikeSmith> I don't know what kind of machine it is, but I think it's extremely low-spec
  27. # [01:03] <MikeSmith> I think it started out as just being a place to publicly manage the source for a couple of tools
  28. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> But it then evolved to a lot more from there
  29. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> As these kinds of things tend to do.
  30. # [01:06] <Lachy> MikeSmith, can't they just move it to the same set of servers that they run w3.org from?
  31. # [01:06] <annevk> nn
  32. # [01:07] <Hixie> nn
  33. # [01:10] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  34. # [01:17] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-3e50611912804475)
  35. # [01:19] <MikeSmith> Lachy: Yeah, I would think the Web interface to the dev stuff could be hosted on the same machines as www.w3.org, just using virtual hosting
  36. # [01:19] <MikeSmith> I would suspect that's already been considered and rejected for some reason, but maybe not
  37. # [01:19] <MikeSmith> I'll ask.
  38. # [01:20] <Philip`> I know exactly nothing about any of this, but I don't see why a simple caching proxy wouldn't solve most of the load problems from people requesting the latest version of the spec
  39. # [01:24] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  40. # [01:35] <Lachy> yay, someone contacted me about taking over the about: URI spec.
  41. # [01:38] <Hixie> wtf i broke the websocket spec script
  42. # [01:38] <Hixie> without touching any relevant parts
  43. # [01:48] <roc> Mmmm, RDF-Video. The video can just encode the semantics of what's happening, and the browser can construct a rendering from that. That would get really great compression too.
  44. # [02:01] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.203.15.188)
  45. # [02:03] <Hixie> roc: it'd be interesting to ask pixar what the ratio is from assets to final rendered bitmap, and how many minutes it takes before you do in fact get compression
  46. # [02:06] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  47. # [02:10] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  48. # [02:16] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  49. # [02:16] <MikeSmith> speaking of video, Sun seems to be pretty serious about their OMS Video project
  50. # [02:16] <MikeSmith> at least it appears that they are investing serious money to do patent review (or whatever it's called) for everything in the spec
  51. # [02:17] <MikeSmith> and their goal seems to be to make it at least as good as H.264
  52. # [02:17] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  53. # [02:18] <MikeSmith> the money at stake around licensing costs is really significant
  54. # [02:18] <Lachy> MikeSmith, that's the same goal of Theora and Dirac, isn't it?
  55. # [02:19] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I suppose so
  56. # [02:20] <Lachy> I guess it's good to see more free alternatives, along with Ogg, Matroska, Theora, Dirac and Vorbis. Though having too many competing technologies can be someone counter productive
  57. # [02:20] <Lachy> *somewhat
  58. # [02:21] <MikeSmith> I think the cases where having competing technologies is productive far outnumber the cases where it's not.
  59. # [02:22] <MikeSmith> at least over the long term
  60. # [02:22] <Lachy> eek, they're also doing Project DReaM :-( http://www.openmediacommons.org/
  61. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> one big goal of any serious codec effort should be to get widspread support for at the hardware level on devices, particularly mobile devices and other constrained devices
  62. # [02:23] <Lachy> I think in the video market, there have been far too many competing technologies, which probably had a lot to do with patents and each vendor wanting to control the market
  63. # [02:24] <Lachy> that's why we still today have few interoperable codecs and container formats supported between the major media players
  64. # [02:24] <rubys> is the root problem vendors wanting control or competition?
  65. # [02:26] <Lachy> the root is probably vendors wanting control, since that creates a lot of competiton from other vendors wanting control
  66. # [02:26] <rubys> +1
  67. # [02:26] <rubys> ironically, the solution to such problems is often *more* competition instead of less.
  68. # [02:26] <Lachy> although, choice can be good. Different codecs are optimised for different situations
  69. # [02:27] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  70. # [02:27] <Lachy> just like we have PNG, GIF and JPG for different types of images, the video container formats and codecs are good for different uses
  71. # [02:28] <rubys> PNG probably wouldn't exist if it weren't for (now expired) patent concerns
  72. # [02:28] <Lachy> like Ogg, I think, is good for streaming, whereas Matroska is good as a general purpose container format
  73. # [02:28] <Lachy> PNG is superior to GIF in many ways, including lossless compression and transparency, so it probably would
  74. # [02:29] <rubys> I'm not so sure. Supperior design is an outcome of what competition produces, but if GIF were "good enough", there might not have been such an effort.
  75. # [02:30] <Lachy> in fact, the usefulness of GIF has shrunk significantly, especially in light if APNG being slowly adopted
  76. # [02:31] <rubys> And yet, GIF will likely be around for as long as RSS 2.0 is. <ducks> :-)
  77. # [02:31] <Lachy> sure, healthy competition is good. The problem is the unhealthy competition stifled by patents
  78. # [02:31] <Lachy> RSS 2.0? Is that crap still around?
  79. # [02:31] <rubys> In abundant quantities.
  80. # [02:32] <Lachy> it's use should die out over the next decade or so as CMSs get upgraded
  81. # [02:32] <Lachy> does WordPress support Atom out of the box yet?
  82. # [02:32] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("Leaving")
  83. # [02:32] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  84. # [02:33] <rubys> yes, but it is hidden and isn't the default
  85. # [02:34] <rubys> your feed is apparently atom produced by wordpress...
  86. # [02:34] <rubys> http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Flachy.id.au%2Flog%2Ffeed
  87. # [02:35] <Lachy> yeah, cause I installed the Atom plugin a long time ago
  88. # [02:36] <Lachy> In fact, I only used RSS for a very brief period during my blog's lifetime. It was atom 0.3 originally before finally moving to 1.0
  89. # [02:47] * Quits: doublec (n=Chris_Do@202.0.36.64) ("ChatZilla 0.9.79-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  90. # [02:49] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64)
  91. # [02:49] * Quits: tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  92. # [02:54] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  93. # [03:17] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  94. # [03:19] <Lachy> wow, Giovanni's reasons for wanting the spec modularised are the exact opposite of why I don't. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2009Jan/0066.html
  95. # [03:20] <Lachy> "Yes, but it is easier to read only the page containing the feature I want, then to search an heavy and difficult document, with the features I need spreaded all across and concept I may not have any idea what they mean."
  96. # [03:20] <Lachy> whereas I find the monolithic document signifcantly easier and less time consuming than trying to work out which spec, or even which page of the multipage version, I need to look at first
  97. # [03:24] <Hixie> yeah me too
  98. # [03:24] <Hixie> i hate multipage specs
  99. # [03:24] <Hixie> but we have a multipage html5 spec, anyway
  100. # [03:24] <Hixie> and soon apparently we'll have two!
  101. # [03:24] <jcranmer> I prefer multipage
  102. # [03:24] <jcranmer> actually, I prefer PDF
  103. # [03:24] <Hixie> we have that too :-)
  104. # [03:24] <Lachy> the only thing I don't like about the single page spec is the TOC script you have running on it is slow
  105. # [03:24] <jcranmer> but multipage means it's not loading a gazillion-thick page
  106. # [03:24] <Hixie> Lachy: really?
  107. # [03:25] <Hixie> Lachy: that's odd
  108. # [03:25] <Hixie> Lachy: it should be blazing fast
  109. # [03:25] <Lachy> yeah, it takes a few seconds to load in which my browser is frozen
  110. # [03:25] <Hixie> Lachy: you sure you don't mean the issue marker script?
  111. # [03:25] <Lachy> I only started noticing the delay afrter you added the TOC script
  112. # [03:25] <Hixie> there's four scripts in the html5 spec right now
  113. # [03:25] <Hixie> dfn, issues, toc, and updates
  114. # [03:25] <Lachy> but it could be the issue marker script
  115. # [03:25] <Hixie> the only slow one should be the issues one
  116. # [03:25] <Hixie> (er, status, not issues)
  117. # [03:26] <Hixie> reload now and see if it is faster
  118. # [03:26] <Lachy> PDF specs are even worse than multipage spaces
  119. # [03:26] <Lachy> *specs
  120. # [03:27] <Lachy> they're only useful if you have the insane desire to waste a ream of paper
  121. # [03:28] <Hixie> still slow?
  122. # [03:29] <Lachy> woah. the PDF is up to 718 pages now :-)
  123. # [03:31] <takkaria> I hope the HTML 5 spec gets published in paper form at some point
  124. # [03:31] <Lachy> does the TOC script run last?
  125. # [03:31] <takkaria> I want to up my carbon footprint a bit since I don't own a car
  126. # [03:31] <Hixie> Lachy: yes
  127. # [03:32] <Lachy> ok. make it run first. Let the status script go last if it takes the longest
  128. # [03:32] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  129. # [03:32] <Lachy> that way I can see if the TOC script is really causing the problem, or if the TOC has loaded and I still get problems
  130. # [03:33] <Hixie> i'm changing the way i run the scripts
  131. # [03:33] <Lachy> I'm also getting a script error: initAnnotations is not defined
  132. # [03:33] <Hixie> yeah i commented out the status script
  133. # [03:33] <Hixie> so if you were still seeing it slow, then it's not that
  134. # [03:33] <Lachy> ok
  135. # [03:36] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  136. # [03:37] <Hixie> how is it now?
  137. # [03:38] <Lachy> better
  138. # [03:38] <Hixie> pity
  139. # [03:38] <Hixie> the scripts aren't running at all right now :-)
  140. # [03:38] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  141. # [03:39] <Lachy> I noticed
  142. # [03:40] <Hixie> how about now
  143. # [03:41] <Lachy> it's fine
  144. # [03:42] <Hixie> cool
  145. # [03:42] <Lachy> the TOC script is missing still. Was that the culprit?
  146. # [03:42] <Hixie> it is?
  147. # [03:43] <Hixie> wfm
  148. # [03:43] <Lachy> doesn't wfm
  149. # [03:43] <Hixie> error console?
  150. # [03:44] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.222) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  151. # [03:44] <Lachy> works after I cleared my cache.
  152. # [03:45] <Hixie> weird
  153. # [03:45] <Lachy> that's the second time my cache has caused problems for me today. I wonder what's going on with it
  154. # [03:45] <Lachy> maybe my profile has degraded and I need to create a fresh one
  155. # [03:46] <Lachy> there's still a small delay though, but it's not too bad
  156. # [03:47] <Hixie> ok food time. bbiab.
  157. # [04:12] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  158. # [04:20] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  159. # [04:27] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  160. # [04:36] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  161. # [04:40] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  162. # [04:40] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  163. # [04:55] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  164. # [04:58] * Joins: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-164-175.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  165. # [05:02] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  166. # [05:03] * Parts: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  167. # [05:05] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@ool-182f8118.dyn.optonline.net)
  168. # [05:06] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  169. # [05:12] * Joins: harig (i=opera@219.64.76.38)
  170. # [05:16] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-154-49.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  171. # [05:16] <Lachy> Hixie, the browsing-context-or-keyword definition doesn't allow "()" as a valid value. The parentheses appear to be used only for grouping, and I think it indicates that target="" is a valid value
  172. # [05:17] <Lachy> but I could be wrong. I find the syntax to be confusing too
  173. # [05:17] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  174. # [05:17] <Hixie> that's what i mean
  175. # [05:17] <Hixie> "" is not valid
  176. # [05:18] <Lachy> oh, from your email, it looked like you through target="()" was a valid value
  177. # [05:18] <Lachy> but this just proves that the syntax is confusing :-)
  178. # [05:18] <Hixie> yeah well
  179. # [05:19] <Hixie> no disagreement there
  180. # [05:20] <Lachy> it's fine for people who need such formalisms for developing tools like validators, but definitely not for average authors
  181. # [05:21] <Lachy> woah, I didn't realise that Mike had copied the first paragraph of the Audience section in HTML5 verbatim into his draft till just now
  182. # [05:21] <Lachy> I thought it was something he had written in the scope section before. That's why I wanted to see the CVS revisions so I could check what the previous draft said
  183. # [05:22] <Hixie> ah
  184. # [05:24] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  185. # [05:26] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  186. # [05:26] * Quits: sicking (n=chatzill@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  187. # [05:26] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230)
  188. # [05:48] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  189. # [05:48] * Joins: doublec_ (n=chris@118-92-158-39.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  190. # [05:49] * Quits: dolske_ (n=dolske@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  191. # [05:52] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  192. # [05:52] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  193. # [05:54] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  194. # [05:54] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  195. # [05:54] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
  196. # [05:57] * doublec_ is now known as doublec
  197. # [06:05] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  198. # [06:10] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-41-195.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  199. # [06:10] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  200. # [06:11] * Quits: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-164-175.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  201. # [06:11] * Quits: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  202. # [06:11] * Quits: othree (n=othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  203. # [06:11] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-221-38-162.rmo.bellsouth.net) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  204. # [06:12] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  205. # [06:12] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  206. # [06:12] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  207. # [06:12] * Quits: jgraham (n=jgraham@web22.webfaction.com) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  208. # [06:13] * Joins: wilhelm (i=wilhelm@trivini.no)
  209. # [06:13] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@ool-182f8118.dyn.optonline.net) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  210. # [06:13] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  211. # [06:13] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  212. # [06:13] * Quits: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  213. # [06:13] * Quits: wilhelm_ (i=wilhelm@trivini.no) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  214. # [06:13] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  215. # [06:13] * Quits: gpy (i=gpy@193.138.219.74) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  216. # [06:13] * Quits: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  217. # [06:13] * Joins: gpy_ (i=gpy@193.138.219.74)
  218. # [06:13] * Joins: [YaaL] (i=yaal@hell.pl)
  219. # [06:14] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@118-92-158-39.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  220. # [06:14] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  221. # [06:14] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  222. # [06:14] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@people.mozilla.com)
  223. # [06:14] * Joins: kinetik_ (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  224. # [06:14] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  225. # [06:14] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@118-92-158-39.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  226. # [06:14] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  227. # [06:14] * Quits: kinetik_ (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  228. # [06:14] * Quits: syp (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  229. # [06:14] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@webvm.net) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  230. # [06:14] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  231. # [06:14] * Joins: syp (n=syp@128.178.82.67)
  232. # [06:15] * Joins: hendry (n=hendry@89.16.172.32)
  233. # [06:15] * Joins: othree (n=othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw)
  234. # [06:15] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  235. # [06:15] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  236. # [06:15] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  237. # [06:15] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  238. # [06:15] * Quits: Yudai (n=Yudai@p02fed3.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  239. # [06:15] * Joins: Yudai (n=Yudai@121.2.254.211)
  240. # [06:15] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au) (Client Quit)
  241. # [06:15] * Quits: Yudai (n=Yudai@121.2.254.211) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  242. # [06:15] * Quits: syp (n=syp@128.178.82.67) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  243. # [06:15] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  244. # [06:15] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=wakaba@59.162.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  245. # [06:15] * Quits: deltab (n=deltab@82-36-30-34.cable.ubr02.smal.blueyonder.co.uk) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  246. # [06:15] * Joins: Yudai (n=Yudai@p02fed3.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp)
  247. # [06:16] * Quits: Yudai (n=Yudai@p02fed3.kngwnt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  248. # [06:16] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  249. # [06:16] * Quits: harig (i=opera@219.64.76.38) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  250. # [06:16] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  251. # [06:16] * Quits: raspberry-lemon (n=lemon@raspberry-style.net) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  252. # [06:16] * Joins: deltab (n=deltab@82.36.30.34)
  253. # [06:16] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  254. # [06:16] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  255. # [06:16] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  256. # [06:16] * Quits: deltab (n=deltab@82.36.30.34) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  257. # [06:16] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@118-92-158-39.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  258. # [06:16] * Quits: [YaaL] (i=yaal@hell.pl) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  259. # [06:16] * Quits: gpy_ (i=gpy@193.138.219.74) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  260. # [06:16] * Quits: wilhelm (i=wilhelm@trivini.no) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  261. # [06:16] * Quits: didymos (i=jho@rapwap.razor.dk) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  262. # [06:16] * Quits: hsivonen (n=hsivonen@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  263. # [06:16] * Joins: holst (i=jho@rapwap.razor.dk)
  264. # [06:17] * Joins: deltab (n=deltab@82.36.30.34)
  265. # [06:17] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@89.16.172.32) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  266. # [06:17] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  267. # [06:17] * Quits: ginger (n=nessy@124-168-148-77.dyn.iinet.net.au) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  268. # [06:17] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-732e3899056eff53) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  269. # [06:17] * Quits: Hixie (i=ianh@trivini.no) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  270. # [06:18] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  271. # [06:18] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  272. # [06:18] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@modemcable202.32-81-70.mc.videotron.ca) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  273. # [06:18] * Quits: fishd (n=Darin@nat/google/x-13fc087bd0bd1aac) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  274. # [06:18] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h116-000-163-146.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  275. # [06:19] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-148-77.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  276. # [06:19] * Joins: fishd (n=Darin@nat/google/x-3ebdd3f38370be6c)
  277. # [06:19] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  278. # [06:19] * Quits: xcombelle (n=chatzill@AToulouse-158-1-117-213.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  279. # [06:19] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-236.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  280. # [06:19] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  281. # [06:19] * Quits: jcranmer (n=jcranmer@remote.csl.tjhsst.edu) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  282. # [06:20] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  283. # [06:20] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@118-92-158-39.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  284. # [06:21] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  285. # [06:21] * Joins: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h116-000-163-146.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp)
  286. # [06:22] * Joins: hsivonen (n=hsivonen@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi)
  287. # [06:22] * Joins: jcranmer (n=jcranmer@remote.csl.tjhsst.edu)
  288. # [06:22] * Joins: jgraham (n=jgraham@web22.webfaction.com)
  289. # [06:22] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@people.mozilla.com)
  290. # [06:22] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@modemcable202.32-81-70.mc.videotron.ca)
  291. # [06:23] * Joins: wilhelm (i=wilhelm@trivini.no)
  292. # [06:24] * Joins: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  293. # [06:24] * Joins: Yudai (n=Yudai@121.2.254.211)
  294. # [06:24] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-164-175.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  295. # [06:24] * Joins: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  296. # [06:24] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230)
  297. # [06:24] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-236.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk)
  298. # [06:24] * Joins: syp (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch)
  299. # [06:24] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  300. # [06:24] * Joins: hendry (n=hendry@webvm.net)
  301. # [06:25] * Joins: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@1.84-48-51.nextgentel.com)
  302. # [06:27] * Joins: Hixie (i=ianh@129.241.93.37)
  303. # [06:29] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  304. # [06:29] * Quits: syp (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  305. # [06:29] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  306. # [06:29] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  307. # [06:29] * Quits: jgraham (n=jgraham@web22.webfaction.com) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  308. # [06:29] * Quits: jcranmer (n=jcranmer@remote.csl.tjhsst.edu) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  309. # [06:29] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  310. # [06:29] * Quits: fishd (n=Darin@nat/google/x-3ebdd3f38370be6c) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  311. # [06:29] * Quits: deltab (n=deltab@82.36.30.34) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  312. # [06:29] * Quits: holst (i=jho@rapwap.razor.dk) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  313. # [06:29] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  314. # [06:29] * Quits: othree (n=othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  315. # [06:29] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  316. # [06:29] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  317. # [06:29] * Quits: drry (n=drry@it17.opt2.point.ne.jp) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  318. # [06:29] * Quits: Philip` (n=philip@xvm-11-39.ghst.net) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  319. # [06:29] * Quits: campd (n=dave@li5-166.members.linode.com) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  320. # [06:29] * Joins: jcranmer (n=jcranmer@198.38.16.161)
  321. # [06:29] * Joins: syp (n=syp@128.178.82.67)
  322. # [06:29] * Joins: fishd (n=Darin@nat/google/x-f3a08d196aaa19ad)
  323. # [06:29] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@63.245.208.169)
  324. # [06:30] * Joins: BenMillard (n=cerbera@86.4.129.84)
  325. # [06:30] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  326. # [06:31] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-236.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  327. # [06:31] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  328. # [06:31] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-164-175.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  329. # [06:31] * Quits: hendry (n=hendry@webvm.net) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  330. # [06:31] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  331. # [06:31] * Quits: BenMillard (n=cerbera@86.4.129.84) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  332. # [06:31] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@63.245.208.169) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  333. # [06:31] * Quits: syp (n=syp@128.178.82.67) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  334. # [06:31] * Quits: fishd (n=Darin@nat/google/x-f3a08d196aaa19ad) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  335. # [06:31] * Quits: jcranmer (n=jcranmer@198.38.16.161) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  336. # [06:31] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  337. # [06:31] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  338. # [06:31] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  339. # [06:31] * Quits: Yudai (n=Yudai@121.2.254.211) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  340. # [06:31] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@modemcable202.32-81-70.mc.videotron.ca) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  341. # [06:31] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  342. # [06:31] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@118-92-158-39.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  343. # [06:31] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-148-77.dyn.iinet.net.au) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  344. # [06:31] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-136-52-180.range86-136.btcentralplus.com) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  345. # [06:31] * Quits: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  346. # [06:31] * Quits: mookid (i=mookid@ROFL.name) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  347. # [06:31] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  348. # [06:31] * Quits: Hixie (i=ianh@129.241.93.37) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  349. # [06:31] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  350. # [06:31] * Quits: VeXocide (i=vexocide@snail.stack.nl) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  351. # [06:31] * Quits: theanxy (n=wzajac@student.agh.edu.pl) (grisham.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  352. # [06:32] * Disconnected
  353. # [06:32] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  354. # [06:32] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  355. # [06:32] * Joins: raspberry-lemon (n=lemon@raspberry-style.net)
  356. # [06:33] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@modemcable202.32-81-70.mc.videotron.ca)
  357. # [06:33] -verne.freenode.net:#WHATWG- *** Notice -- TS for #WHATWG changed from 1233034052 to 1164523374
  358. # [06:33] * Joins: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@1.84-48-51.nextgentel.com)
  359. # [06:33] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-42-25.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  360. # [06:33] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  361. # [06:33] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-236.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk)
  362. # [06:33] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-164-175.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  363. # [06:33] * Joins: hendry (n=hendry@webvm.net)
  364. # [06:33] * Joins: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  365. # [06:33] * Joins: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h116-000-163-146.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp)
  366. # [06:33] * Joins: Simetrical (n=Simetric@cpe-72-229-28-14.nyc.res.rr.com)
  367. # [06:33] * Joins: othree (n=othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw)
  368. # [06:33] * irc.freenode.net changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  369. # [06:34] * Joins: Yudai (n=Yudai@121.2.254.211)
  370. # [06:34] * Joins: fishd (n=Darin@nat/google/session)
  371. # [06:34] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@118-92-158-39.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  372. # [06:34] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230)
  373. # [06:34] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  374. # [06:34] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  375. # [06:34] * Joins: jgraham (n=jgraham@web22.webfaction.com)
  376. # [06:34] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@people.mozilla.com)
  377. # [06:34] * Joins: syp (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch)
  378. # [06:35] * Joins: Hixie (i=ianh@trivini.no)
  379. # [06:35] * Joins: VeXocide (i=vexocide@131.155.140.131)
  380. # [06:35] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  381. # [06:36] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  382. # [06:36] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc4-flee1-0-0-cust339.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  383. # [06:36] * Joins: mookid (i=mookid@ROFL.name)
  384. # [06:37] * Joins: JohnResig (n=JohnResi@74.201.254.36)
  385. # [06:39] <BenMillard> now that krijnh is here to log it, IE8 RC1 available: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/01/26/internet-explorer-8-release-candidate-now-available.aspx
  386. # [06:39] * Joins: campd (n=dave@li5-166.members.linode.com)
  387. # [06:42] * Joins: wilhelm (i=wilhelm@trivini.no)
  388. # [06:43] * Joins: takkaria (n=takkaria@isparp.co.uk)
  389. # [06:43] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc4-flee1-0-0-cust339.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  390. # [06:43] * Joins: jmb (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  391. # [06:43] * Joins: YaaL (i=yaal@hell.pl)
  392. # [06:43] * Joins: gpy (i=gpy@193.138.219.74)
  393. # [06:44] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-41-195.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  394. # [06:44] * Quits: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  395. # [06:44] * Joins: didymos (i=jho@rapwap.razor.dk)
  396. # [06:44] * Joins: jcranmer (n=jcranmer@remote.csl.tjhsst.edu)
  397. # [06:44] * Joins: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  398. # [06:44] * Joins: Philip` (n=philip@xvm-11-39.ghst.net)
  399. # [06:45] * Joins: theanxy (n=wzajac@student.agh.edu.pl)
  400. # [06:46] * Joins: sicking (n=chatzill@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  401. # [06:47] * Joins: hsivonen (n=hsivonen@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi)
  402. # [06:54] * Joins: harig (i=opera@219.64.76.38)
  403. # [07:07] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-9919bce0823f050f)
  404. # [07:38] <Hixie> what do you call the function that's the first function in a call stack? that is, the one that started everything?
  405. # [07:38] <Hixie> in particular in JS
  406. # [07:38] <Hixie> would be "the program" in a process stack trace
  407. # [07:38] <takkaria> God
  408. # [07:38] <Hixie> s/stack trace/call stack/
  409. # [07:44] <heycam> "top execution context" is a phrase in ECMA-232
  410. # [07:45] <heycam> syntactically, the name of the production is "Program"
  411. # [07:46] <heycam> oops sorry, "top execution context" refers to one most recently put on the stack
  412. # [07:50] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@118-92-158-39.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("Leaving")
  413. # [07:51] <heycam> hmm djokovic retired
  414. # [07:59] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  415. # [08:01] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp195.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  416. # [08:17] <Hixie> heycam: might not be the Program (e.g. from could be a callback)
  417. # [08:22] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  418. # [08:23] <heycam> Hixie, top call?
  419. # [08:23] <heycam> i think that's what some JS engines might call it
  420. # [08:24] * Joins: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.18.213)
  421. # [08:26] <Hixie> i just called it the "first script"
  422. # [08:26] <Hixie> can always rename it later
  423. # [08:30] * Joins: xcombelle (n=chatzill@AToulouse-158-1-117-213.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  424. # [08:30] * Joins: psa (n=yomode@71.93.19.66)
  425. # [08:39] * Hixie stares at this case that bz wants fixed:
  426. # [08:39] <Hixie> 1) Setting location.href of an about:blank iframe to a javascript: URI that then sets window.location to a relative URI.
  427. # [08:41] * Hixie considers making the answer be "throw an HEADACHE_CAUSED_BY_AUTHOR_ERR" exception
  428. # [08:43] * Joins: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  429. # [08:46] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  430. # [09:03] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.41)
  431. # [09:24] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  432. # [09:28] <Hixie> good lord about:blank has a lot of magic
  433. # [09:28] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  434. # [09:32] * Quits: xcombelle (n=chatzill@AToulouse-158-1-117-213.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 2.0.0.20/2008121709]")
  435. # [09:43] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  436. # [10:05] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  437. # [10:06] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  438. # [10:07] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.57.69.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  439. # [10:11] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  440. # [10:16] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@c-67-164-70-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  441. # [10:25] * Joins: pauld_ (n=pauld@92.40.173.9.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  442. # [10:27] * Quits: sverrej (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230) (Connection timed out)
  443. # [10:29] * Joins: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-86.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  444. # [10:41] * Joins: pauld__ (n=pauld@92.40.117.188.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  445. # [10:42] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  446. # [10:42] <Hixie> the last few days' worth of checkins are all courtesey of private e-mails from bz containing just links to bugzilla bug comments
  447. # [10:43] <Hixie> such inoccuous-looking e-mails
  448. # [10:44] * Quits: pauld__ (n=pauld@92.40.117.188.sub.mbb.three.co.uk) (Client Quit)
  449. # [10:47] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.57.69.sub.mbb.three.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  450. # [10:48] <Hixie> nn
  451. # [10:52] <annevk> nn
  452. # [10:58] * Quits: pauld_ (n=pauld@92.40.173.9.sub.mbb.three.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  453. # [11:03] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp195.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  454. # [11:05] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  455. # [11:07] <zcorpan> hmm, doesn't html5 expose event handler attributes on HTMLDocument?
  456. # [11:10] <annevk> Hixie's claim is that e.g. document.onload only works in Opera
  457. # [11:11] <zcorpan> but that's because the load event doesn't bubble through document
  458. # [11:11] <zcorpan> not because document.onload doesn't exist
  459. # [11:12] <zcorpan> document.onclick seems to work everywhere?
  460. # [11:12] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203) (Remote closed the connection)
  461. # [11:12] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cscript%3Edocument.onclick%20%3D%20function(e)%20%7B%20w(e)%20%7D%3C%2Fscript%3E
  462. # [11:13] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@77.163.243.203)
  463. # [11:14] <annevk> yeah, I don't think that problem is really solved
  464. # [11:14] * zcorpan files a bug
  465. # [11:18] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-164-175.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  466. # [11:30] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host81-130-11-234.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  467. # [11:38] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@118-92-158-39.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  468. # [11:41] <annevk> zcorpan, do you have IE8?
  469. # [11:41] <annevk> zcorpan, any chance you can test if both overflow-x and overflow-y still work or if they only work with a prefix?
  470. # [11:41] <annevk> (if someone else here can do it, great!)
  471. # [11:42] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  472. # [11:44] <virtuelv> annevk: when were you going to Oslo again?
  473. # [11:46] <annevk> mañana
  474. # [11:47] <annevk> but late, so I'll see you Thursday
  475. # [11:51] <zcorpan> annevk: they work (in RC1)
  476. # [11:53] <zcorpan> -ms-overflow-x only works in IE8 mode
  477. # [11:53] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  478. # [11:54] <zcorpan> unprefixed version works in quirks, IE7 and IE8 mode
  479. # [11:55] <zcorpan> hmm maybe i should test their almost standards mode some time
  480. # [11:56] <zcorpan> window.onerror is null in ie8
  481. # [11:57] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
  482. # [11:57] <zcorpan> what's the reason for having onerror be undefined again?
  483. # [11:57] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  484. # [11:57] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230)
  485. # [12:00] <annevk> thanks
  486. # [12:00] * annevk e-mails the CSS WG
  487. # [12:00] <annevk> zcorpan, I don't think there was one in particular
  488. # [12:08] <hsivonen> do Safari, Chrome and Opera have something like chardet?
  489. # [12:08] <hsivonen> if they do have it, do they deliberately not have UI for it?
  490. # [12:08] <hsivonen> I wonder if Firefox could get away with having chardet always on without UI for turning it off
  491. # [12:10] <annevk> we have heuristics for determining the encoding, if that is what you mean
  492. # [12:10] <hsivonen> annevk: that's what I mean
  493. # [12:11] <jgraham> Does anyone have any idea where ubuntu hides the python pstats module these days?
  494. # [12:11] <hsivonen> annevk: so the heuristics are always part of the HTTP, BOM, meta, heuristics chain?
  495. # [12:12] <hsivonen> without UI for changing the chain to HTTP, BOM, meta, windows-1252?
  496. # [12:13] * jgraham discovers it is in python-profiler in multiverse despite being part of the stdlib
  497. # [12:13] <hsivonen> jgraham: non-free?
  498. # [12:14] <annevk> I'm not sure I understand encoding UI
  499. # [12:14] <hsivonen> It would be interesting to know if encoding UI is still strictly necessary
  500. # [12:14] <jgraham> annevk: Does anyone?
  501. # [12:15] * jgraham guesses many browsers could reduce their encoding UI by 95%
  502. # [12:15] <hsivonen> Safari is pretty reduced, but they opted to have UI for encodings
  503. # [12:17] <jgraham> hsivonen: It seems like pstats has an odd license which probably makes it non-free indeed (but I did not think that Ubuntu were religious about such things)
  504. # [12:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think the level of religiosity depends on how generally visible and useful a package is
  505. # [12:30] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  506. # [12:38] <zcorpan> http://svn.codetalks.org/repos/trunk/tools/ARIA-DTDs/
  507. # [12:38] * jgraham swears out load as he notices html5lib on the contents list of http://diveintopython3.org/
  508. # [12:39] <jgraham> I guess that means a Python 3 port would be a good idea
  509. # [12:41] * heycam discovers that 'apt-get install git' doesn't install the right thing
  510. # [12:43] <krijnh> "This site is optimized for Lynx just because fuck you."
  511. # [12:50] <annevk> krijnh, the funny thing is that at the top it talks about a color not supported by Lynx at all :p
  512. # [12:50] <annevk> well, actually, the next sentence makes that funny as it implies Mark never looked at anything but Lynx
  513. # [12:50] <krijnh> Yeah, I just search up for 'fuck' and noticed your comment :)
  514. # [12:51] <krijnh> Next time I should search for 'fuck' before I say something :)
  515. # [12:59] <Lachy> wow, about:blank has been submitted to IETF now. http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/staging/draft-holsten-about-uri-scheme-00.txt - I wasn't expecting that to be done so quickly, especially cause Joseph listed me as an editor
  516. # [13:00] <Lachy> looks like he took what I wrote and combined it with what he had and submitted it without even letting me review the changes
  517. # [13:01] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-056826995425aa70)
  518. # [13:03] <Philip`> Lachy: Does "submitted to the IETF" mean anything more than "uploaded to their web servers as a temporary storage location for early drafts"?
  519. # [13:05] <Lachy> I don't know
  520. # [13:06] <Lachy> I have no experience with the IETF submission process
  521. # [13:06] <hsivonen> Don't submitters need to promise something about rights?
  522. # [13:06] <Lachy> I don't know
  523. # [13:09] <xydyx> hsivonen: what should I do about "Bad MD5 hash for http://archive.apache.org/dist/xerces/j/Xerces-J-bin.2.9.1.zip."
  524. # [13:10] <hsivonen> xydyx: first you should check if the server gave you a 404 page or somethinga along those lines instead of a zip file
  525. # [13:11] <xydyx> it's a zip, 6952959 bytes
  526. # [13:12] <hsivonen> xydyx: hmm. that's interesting
  527. # [13:12] <xydyx> ETag: "cb4e73-6a17ff-43a2388b9ffc0"
  528. # [13:13] <hsivonen> it has the right length
  529. # [13:13] <xydyx> firefox only downloaded 4923392 bytes
  530. # [13:15] <Philip`> Works fine for me in wget, with MD5 a0e07ede1c3bd5231fe15eae24032b2e
  531. # [13:15] <xydyx> wget got the whole file, I'll try replacing build.py with localhost
  532. # [13:16] <Philip`> You should be able to just copy the downloaded file into build/dependencies, I think
  533. # [13:16] <Philip`> and then build.py won't try downloading it again
  534. # [13:17] <Philip`> Uh, build/../dependencies
  535. # [13:23] <xydyx> that works, thanks
  536. # [13:27] <hsivonen> I also get the right md5 with curl
  537. # [13:27] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  538. # [13:31] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-056826995425aa70) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  539. # [13:34] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@modemcable202.32-81-70.mc.videotron.ca) ("O public road, I say back I am not afraid to leave you, yet I love you, you express me better than I can express myself.")
  540. # [13:42] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  541. # [13:45] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de)
  542. # [13:56] * Joins: hallvors (n=hallvord@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  543. # [13:57] <zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/dom/event-handler-attrs/initial-value.html
  544. # [13:58] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  545. # [14:06] * Quits: harig (i=opera@219.64.76.38) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  546. # [14:06] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-60c9f32c20390a80)
  547. # [14:07] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  548. # [14:12] * Quits: doublec (n=chris@118-92-158-39.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("Leaving")
  549. # [14:27] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/mid/1c8dbcaa0901270455y2b5a1f09w67df621cdce86b1a@mail.gmail.com
  550. # [14:28] * annevk was hoping that was over
  551. # [14:29] <jgraham> "It will all be over when you're dead"
  552. # [14:30] <annevk> the problem is, I'm 22
  553. # [14:31] <hsivonen> I was hoping no one would stir that issue until the group working on ATAG came up with a suggestion on what they want tools to do
  554. # [14:31] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host81-130-11-234.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  555. # [14:31] <jgraham> Curiously the first verse of the song I was quoting ends "Is it wicked not to care when you've wasted many hours talking endlessly to anyone who's there", which seems curiously apropos
  556. # [14:35] <jgraham> hsivonen: In Gez's list the consumer side of that question is addressed ("with no alt UAs have to guess which results in gibberish") but not the producer side ("in the absence of a human who cares and understands the issue well enough the producer has to guess which often results in authoratitive gibberish")
  557. # [14:35] <hsivonen> Gez's comment form doesn't do Unicode
  558. # [14:36] <xydyx> ./ant warns "You must set JAVA_HOME environment variable to point to the directory where your JDK is installed."; but the build goes on with heaps of errors then fails
  559. # [14:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: have you let him know?
  560. # [14:37] <hsivonen> zcorpan: only by leaving comments with broken characters
  561. # [14:37] <hsivonen> xydyx: you need to set JAVA_HOME
  562. # [14:38] <xydyx> I know, but I have to scroll up a lot to see the message
  563. # [14:38] <hsivonen> xydyx: yeah, the build script sucks in many ways
  564. # [14:38] <annevk> Lachy, it seems better to not make about: depend on HTML5 as I do not think it is needed
  565. # [14:38] * Philip` wonders to what extent the mathematical syntax used in theoretical computer science is determined by the availability of nice-looking symbols in LaTeX
  566. # [14:41] <Lachy> annevk, if it's going to define about:blank returns a text/html document, shouldn't it reference something?
  567. # [14:41] <annevk> there's a text/html RFC
  568. # [14:41] <annevk> which HTML5 will update in due course
  569. # [14:42] <Lachy> ok. Reply to my mail about that on the list to let Joseph know
  570. # [14:42] <annevk> sure, it just seems that without dependency on unstable drafts getting an RFC out there is considerably easier
  571. # [14:42] <annevk> it can always be updated later once everything is in place
  572. # [14:43] * hallvors notes that about:blank must be a document in quirks mode with no whitespace in body except for a BR tag.. or something like that :-p
  573. # [14:44] <zcorpan> hallvors: why quirks mode?
  574. # [14:45] <hallvors> we've got bugs when editors set designMode on and apply CSS, apparently quirksmode is/was expected .. ;-]
  575. # [14:45] <hallvors> I think
  576. # [14:45] <xydyx> hsivonen: checking for "JAVA_HOME" not in os.environ in buildAll or buildJing should work
  577. # [14:45] <hallvors> but that's from memory so I may be plain wrong. Perhaps it was the other way around, even.
  578. # [14:46] <annevk> you're right, though zcorpan discovered another potential fix
  579. # [14:46] <annevk> but quirks mode seems safer
  580. # [14:48] <zcorpan> hallvors: i only recall one bug (which didn't actually use css but the result was "broken" because of p's default margins)
  581. # [14:49] <zcorpan> how would they apply css to about:blank?
  582. # [14:50] <zcorpan> oh by inserting elements with script
  583. # [14:50] <hsivonen> xydyx: thanks. recorded http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=439
  584. # [14:51] <zcorpan> annevk: we might have to do change default block anyway to make google people happy
  585. # [14:51] <hallvors> zcorpan: probably the P margin issue I was thinking of..
  586. # [14:53] * Philip` wonders why Firefox requires 20% of his CPU just to display the "an upgrade is available" box
  587. # [14:53] <annevk> zcorpan, yeah, though quirks mode stays safer :)
  588. # [14:53] <zcorpan> annevk: standards mode is nicer :)
  589. # [14:54] <jgraham> zcorpan: WWhen did we ever get to do something nice in HTML?
  590. # [14:54] <annevk> zcorpan, you mean no quirks mode :p
  591. # [14:54] <zcorpan> jgraham: true... otoh, interop is nice and if we change we have interop
  592. # [14:58] <Philip`> annevk: I think you mean "slightly fewer quirks mode"
  593. # [14:59] <annevk> Philip`, not found
  594. # [14:59] <Philip`> If you removed all the quirks, HTML wouldn't even be HTML any more, it'd be an entirely different language
  595. # [15:02] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@modemcable202.32-81-70.mc.videotron.ca)
  596. # [15:04] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-148-77.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  597. # [15:21] * Joins: xcombelle (n=chatzill@AToulouse-158-1-117-213.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  598. # [15:39] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-65-193.dynamic.amis.net)
  599. # [15:47] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-2009010213 [Firefox 3.2a1pre/20090125021431]")
  600. # [16:08] * Joins: rubys1 (n=rubys@17.sub-75-194-128.myvzw.com)
  601. # [16:08] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  602. # [16:12] * Quits: hallvors (n=hallvord@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  603. # [16:13] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-136-52-180.range86-136.btcentralplus.com)
  604. # [16:19] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-133-212.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  605. # [16:21] * Quits: rubys1 (n=rubys@17.sub-75-194-128.myvzw.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  606. # [16:34] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host81-130-11-234.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  607. # [16:39] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472529 (Web Sockets)
  608. # [16:44] * gsnedders hasn't got into Imperial
  609. # [16:45] * zcorpan should read the whole thread before replying :(
  610. # [16:48] * annevk reminds himself to not reply to trivial questions because everyone else does it too
  611. # [16:51] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-136-52-180.range86-136.btcentralplus.com)
  612. # [16:59] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-133-212.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  613. # [17:00] * Joins: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-0.dynamic.amis.net)
  614. # [17:06] * Joins: scotfl (n=scotfl@S0106001b114f914a.ss.shawcable.net)
  615. # [17:06] * Quits: scotfl (n=scotfl@S0106001b114f914a.ss.shawcable.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  616. # [17:06] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  617. # [17:12] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-65-193.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  618. # [17:14] * Joins: rubys1 (n=rubys@12.130.116.93)
  619. # [17:19] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-136-52-180.range86-136.btcentralplus.com)
  620. # [17:20] * Joins: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  621. # [17:20] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  622. # [17:21] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-4db6f424e3b8dd5d)
  623. # [17:32] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-0.dynamic.amis.net)
  624. # [17:33] * Parts: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-0.dynamic.amis.net)
  625. # [17:33] * jgraham is sure that making hundreds of megabytes of LaTeX a dependency for python-matplotlib is overkill
  626. # [17:34] <Philip`> You should use Gentoo, then you could set USE=-latex and it wouldn't need those dependencies
  627. # [17:35] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-0.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  628. # [17:38] * Joins: dfjoerg (n=joerg@www.ostsee-abc.de)
  629. # [17:41] <dfjoerg> jgraham: can you fix setup_base.py? package_dir should be 'src', not 'src/'
  630. # [17:42] <dfjoerg> jgraham: the latter fails on windows
  631. # [17:42] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  632. # [17:44] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de)
  633. # [17:46] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-4db6f424e3b8dd5d)
  634. # [17:49] <jgraham> dfjoerg: Yes, but not right now. I guess I can do it in an hour or so
  635. # [17:49] * jgraham thought that got fixed once before
  636. # [17:50] <dfjoerg> no need to hurry, just wanted to see it fixed for the next release
  637. # [17:54] * Quits: xcombelle (n=chatzill@AToulouse-158-1-117-213.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  638. # [17:56] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-ea44376daa697c91)
  639. # [17:59] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  640. # [18:00] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host81-130-11-234.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  641. # [18:08] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  642. # [18:08] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  643. # [18:08] * Joins: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-0.dynamic.amis.net)
  644. # [18:15] * zcorpan hates dom events
  645. # [18:15] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  646. # [18:19] * Quits: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-86.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  647. # [18:30] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host81-130-11-234.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  648. # [18:32] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-68-0.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  649. # [18:32] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  650. # [18:34] * gsnedders sighs
  651. # [18:34] <gsnedders> YouTube's new RSS feeds are invalid
  652. # [18:35] <rubys1> url?
  653. # [18:35] <gsnedders> http://www.youtube.com/rssls
  654. # [18:36] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@c-67-180-38-119.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  655. # [18:36] <gsnedders> <author> containing username
  656. # [18:38] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  657. # [18:38] <rubys1> http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgdata.youtube.com%2Ffeeds%2Fbase%2Fvideos%2F-%2Fmonkey%3Fclient%3Dytapi-youtube-browse%26v%3D2
  658. # [18:39] <rubys1> drop alt=rss
  659. # [18:43] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  660. # [18:49] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-77-123.dynamic.amis.net)
  661. # [18:50] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.203.15.188)
  662. # [18:53] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-69-181-81-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  663. # [18:59] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  664. # [19:00] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  665. # [19:00] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  666. # [19:01] * Joins: dimich_ (n=dimich@72.14.227.1)
  667. # [19:02] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-221-38-162.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  668. # [19:02] <Philip`> LVM scares me
  669. # [19:02] <Philip`> The problem is that I only want to use it once every six months or so, so I never really learn how it works
  670. # [19:03] <Philip`> but then occasionally I want to expand a disk onto a RAID volume and don't want to accidentally destroy all my data
  671. # [19:20] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  672. # [19:22] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  673. # [19:35] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host81-130-11-234.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  674. # [19:38] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  675. # [19:40] * Philip` discovers a 32GB partition, and has no idea where it came from or who made it
  676. # [19:40] <Philip`> (and it doesn't seem to be mounted anywhere)
  677. # [19:41] <dfjoerg> secret pr0n collection of your gf?
  678. # [19:41] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  679. # [19:42] <Philip`> No, it's my work computer :-p
  680. # [19:42] <Philip`> and I don't think the sysadmins would store that kind of thing on random users' machines
  681. # [19:47] * Quits: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  682. # [19:48] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  683. # [19:49] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  684. # [20:00] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L97ab.l.pppool.de)
  685. # [20:02] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  686. # [20:04] * Joins: dolske_ (n=dolske@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  687. # [20:05] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@c-76-122-175-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
  688. # [20:05] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@17.244.18.65)
  689. # [20:11] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  690. # [20:12] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@guest-225.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  691. # [20:17] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.227.1)
  692. # [20:22] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.203.15.188) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  693. # [20:32] * Parts: rubys1 (n=rubys@12.130.116.93)
  694. # [20:33] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no)
  695. # [20:34] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.65.188.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  696. # [20:42] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@92.40.65.188.sub.mbb.three.co.uk)
  697. # [20:44] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@guest-225.mountainview.mozilla.com) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  698. # [20:44] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  699. # [20:44] * Quits: dolske_ (n=dolske@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  700. # [20:45] * Joins: dolske_ (n=dolske@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  701. # [20:48] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  702. # [20:54] * Joins: xcombelle (n=chatzill@AToulouse-158-1-44-91.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  703. # [20:57] <Philip`> Hmph, silly dmoz.org having 11667 URLs from newadvent.org
  704. # [20:58] <Philip`> vs 13010 from wikipedia.org
  705. # [21:01] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  706. # [21:02] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.222)
  707. # [21:05] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  708. # [21:06] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@modemcable202.32-81-70.mc.videotron.ca) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  709. # [21:10] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@17.203.15.188)
  710. # [21:16] * Quits: eric_carlson_ (n=ericc@17.244.18.65) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  711. # [21:26] * Joins: kangax (n=kangax@74.201.136.194)
  712. # [21:27] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-60c9f32c20390a80) (Connection timed out)
  713. # [21:32] * maikmerten is now known as maik|afk
  714. # [21:32] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  715. # [21:44] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@aixd3.rhrk.uni-kl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-2009010213 [Firefox 3.2a1pre/20090125021431]")
  716. # [21:48] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-148-77.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  717. # [21:52] * Joins: aboodman2 (n=aboodman@nat/google/x-33d7b84366d519ce)
  718. # [21:53] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no) ("Leaving")
  719. # [22:06] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  720. # [22:08] * Quits: maik|afk (n=maikmert@L97ab.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  721. # [22:11] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-77-123.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
  722. # [22:12] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64)
  723. # [22:19] * Joins: alyoshka (n=anime4ch@74.93.182.234)
  724. # [22:23] <alyoshka> for some reason I had trouble getting to this channel, so I asked a question on W3C's html-wg irc channel, but this channel is more active usually, so I guess I can ask here and the message on html-wg can be ignored
  725. # [22:23] <alyoshka> What is the <figure><legend> supposed to look like by default? does it look like the <fieldset><legend> or does it have the caption(legend) at the bottom like the classic photography style?
  726. # [22:24] <Hixie> we don't know yet
  727. # [22:24] <Hixie> :-)
  728. # [22:25] <alyoshka> uhh...that leaves me with a problem on how to fix it in older browsers.lol
  729. # [22:26] <alyoshka> well, is there any special behavior that current graphical browsers don't have for it? Last time I checked, there wasn't, but maybe I need to look again
  730. # [22:27] <alyoshka> I always imagined it looking like an inline-block element with the caption under the image
  731. # [22:42] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-42-25.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  732. # [22:44] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-9ddc0ee9ed44ea6f)
  733. # [22:51] <Hixie> alyoshka: it should be block-level, but yeah, other than that that's basically it
  734. # [22:51] <Hixie> alyoshka: probably legend above if the legend is at the top, and below otherwise
  735. # [22:52] <Hixie> you could center the resource and the legend, too
  736. # [22:52] * Philip` 's web page collection is far too old :-(
  737. # [22:52] * Philip` tries downloading another hundred thousand
  738. # [22:53] <Hixie> so probably, like: figure, figure > legend { text-align: center; margin: 0 auto; display: block; }
  739. # [22:54] <alyoshka> OK, makes sense
  740. # [22:56] <alyoshka> for default settings. and I figure the legend would be more of plain text rather than the way <fieldset><legend> works
  741. # [22:56] <Hixie> yeah, no default borders or anything
  742. # [22:59] <alyoshka> what about <details><legend>? no borders, but just open/close action for all contents, right?
  743. # [23:01] <alyoshka> <details><legend>You don't...</legend> want to know the details</details> would render "You don't..." without a style by default except maybe looking like a hyperlink?
  744. # [23:06] <Hixie> are you familiar with the Mac OS X "disclosure triangle" widget?
  745. # [23:07] <Hixie> that's what I had in mind when speccing <details>
  746. # [23:14] <alyoshka> um, I think I know what you're talking about, Gnome has the same thing too (if I understood what you're talking about)
  747. # [23:14] <alyoshka> I'm primarily a KDE user tho
  748. # [23:15] <ap> Hixie: hmm, is noupdate event no longer dispatched in the main resource was loaded from cache? is this intentional?
  749. # [23:16] <Hixie> ap: not sure, send e-mail -- i'm looking at this stuff this afternoon
  750. # [23:16] <ap> k
  751. # [23:19] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
  752. # [23:21] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  753. # [23:28] * Quits: xcombelle (n=chatzill@AToulouse-158-1-44-91.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 2.0.0.20/2008121709]")
  754. # [23:40] * Joins: wakaba (n=wakaba@59.162.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  755. # [23:41] <Hixie> so does anyone know what IE8's "clickjacking protection" consists of?
  756. # [23:43] <alyoshka> apparently it's a tag a developer puts in the document that prevents IE8 from ever framing the page
  757. # [23:44] <Hixie> i was hoping for someone who knew what the "tag" was :-)
  758. # [23:46] <heycam> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=475530 claims it's actually the "X-I-Do-Not-Want-To-Be-Framed-Across-Domains" header
  759. # [23:47] <heycam> should be simple to test, i guess
  760. # [23:47] * Quits: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.41)
  761. # [23:48] <Hixie> that doesn't solve clickjacking, unless you consider "not having a car" to be a solution to "it's possible for someone to break into my car"
  762. # [23:48] <Hixie> if it is what they did, though, i'm amused -- that was originally a Google proposal on the WHATWG list
  763. # [23:49] <heycam> and presumably a strawman header name
  764. # [23:50] * Philip` 's new download storage format is sufficiently less dumb that his old format that it now takes 15 seconds to scan through 130K pages, rather than ten minutes
  765. # [23:51] <alyoshka> such a funny name for the header
  766. # [23:51] <Philip`> ...although I appear to have a page which sends the Validator.nu parser into either an infinite or a very slow loop
  767. # [23:51] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0132.html "Most RDFa parsers are able to handle broken XHTML" ...
  768. # [23:51] <alyoshka> I hate having pages that needed to have something pasted in them every time
  769. # [23:52] <alyoshka> one reason I hated the XHTML doctypes
  770. # [23:52] <alyoshka> it's very easy to get a typo when typing that into the page, so I would usually paste it
  771. # [23:53] <Philip`> Hixie: Who needs parsing specs when you can just pass everything through Tidy or whatever other tool you happen to have lying around?
  772. # [23:53] <alyoshka> but with the header it's more important not to make a typo, since it actually does something, unlike the doctype
  773. # [23:56] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-57-120.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  774. # [23:58] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  775. # [23:59] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-57-120.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  776. # Session Close: Wed Jan 28 00:00:00 2009

The end :)