/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-01-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jan 30 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * slightlyoff is now known as slightlyoff_afk
  4. # [00:04] * Parts: billmason (n=bmason@ip8.unival.com)
  5. # [00:13] <Lachy> for some reason, I'm not receiving any emails from Robert Burns that he's sending to the list. i'm only receiving Boris' replies. Is anyone else having the same problem?
  6. # [00:14] <Philip`> Lachy: Have you set up a filter to delete his mails?
  7. # [00:14] <Lachy> It looks like they're showing up in the archive, so I don't understand what's going on. They're not in my junk folder either, although I suppose that's where they belong anyway
  8. # [00:14] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-43-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  9. # [00:14] <Lachy> no, I don't delete any mails except spam, and he doesn't quite qualify as spam
  10. # [00:17] <Lachy> LOL :-D "you simply jump into the conversation with unrelated comments." - says the guy who jumps into a thread about dropping <a name=""> with ambiguous complaints about something else.
  11. # [00:17] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jan/0592.html
  12. # [00:21] <Hixie> Lachy: you left off the first part, which is why the apis would be useful
  13. # [00:21] <Hixie> > This specification is intended for producers of documents
  14. # [00:21] <Hixie> > intended to conform to the requirements it describes
  15. # [00:21] <Lachy> I know. I think the first part needs to be dropped
  16. # [00:21] <Lachy> or revised
  17. # [00:22] <Hixie> well i'm trying to avoid arguing about what i think the audience statement should be, and just review the draft based on what it is
  18. # [00:22] <Hixie> what it _should_ be is imho mostly up to the editor
  19. # [00:23] <Lachy> ok. I'll argue about the audience statement with Mike then, since it seems easier than getting him to drop the Relax NG schemas and regexs from the draft
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  26. # [00:41] * Hixie tries to work out what to do about the script execution model around page navigation
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  31. # [00:43] <Hixie> othermaciej: there's really no way i can get you to trade the massive complexity of multiple personality Window objects for the performance hit of cross-document script calls checking that the target code is still active?
  32. # [00:44] * Quits: rubys (n=rubys@216.239.45.19) ("Leaving.")
  33. # [00:44] <othermaciej> Hixie: well - given that we have the split window solution already implemented, and that it was quite a bit of work to validate its security properties, I don't find the complexity reduction to be much incentive
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  35. # [00:45] <othermaciej> Hixie: because we'll have to do a similar amount of work probably to make sure the new model works
  36. # [00:45] <othermaciej> so, given that it's also certain to be a significant performance hit, I'm not super enthusiastic about it
  37. # [00:45] <Hixie> othermaciej: Microsoft have teh opposite argument, so that one is pretty much a non-issue for me
  38. # [00:46] <othermaciej> Hixie: sure, I'm telling you why "massive complexity" does not count as a cost for the split Window solution
  39. # [00:46] <Hixie> (including the performance aspect, since i'm pretty sure multiple-window stuff has a perf hit elsewhere, e.g. page load)
  40. # [00:46] <Hixie> sure
  41. # [00:46] <othermaciej> also my understanding is that IE does something similar to split window, but I could be wrong
  42. # [00:46] <othermaciej> no, split window is not a hit to page load time
  43. # [00:46] <Hixie> not as far as i can tell
  44. # [00:46] <othermaciej> believe me we are very thorough about measuring these things
  45. # [00:46] <Hixie> they just turn off scripts
  46. # [00:46] <othermaciej> in fact it enabled us to implement some additional optimizations
  47. # [00:47] <Hixie> so is there any way i can get you to describe exactly what you do, in terms of the EcmaScript spec?
  48. # [00:47] <othermaciej> IE has orders of magnitude slower JS than anyone else, so I think their input on the importance of the perf hit is not credible
  49. # [00:47] <othermaciej> I can try to describe it
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  52. # [00:48] <Hixie> (re perf - that's not a politically tenable position for me to hold, unfortunately)
  53. # [00:48] <othermaciej> for the lifetime of any given frame, including a top-level frame, there is an "outer" Window object
  54. # [00:48] <othermaciej> for any given Document, there is an "inner" Window object
  55. # [00:49] <Hixie> do either of these map to the global object?
  56. # [00:49] <othermaciej> there is a one-to-one correspondence between browsing contexts and outer Window, and between Documents and inner window
  57. # [00:49] <othermaciej> the inner window acts as the global object
  58. # [00:49] <othermaciej> for purposes of the scope chain and in general providing the global scope
  59. # [00:49] <othermaciej> getting back to my narrative...
  60. # [00:49] <othermaciej> the outer window delegates all property and method access to the inner window
  61. # [00:49] * Hixie lets you explain it before asking further questions :-)
  62. # [00:50] <othermaciej> on navigation, the outer window's associated inner window is replaced with the one for the new current document
  63. # [00:50] <othermaciej> in the scope chain, you have the inner window
  64. # [00:50] <othermaciej> when you access "this" in global scope, or access the global "window" property, or in any other way reify a reference to the global object, you get the outer window
  65. # [00:50] <othermaciej> thus, any mechanism you use to get an actual object reference gives you a persistent one
  66. # [00:51] <othermaciej> but function scopes see their original defining global object in their scope chain
  67. # [00:51] <othermaciej> the inner window is the "true" global object, and the outer window is a persistent handle to whatever is the current global object for a given browsing context
  68. # [00:52] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@121.217.22.205) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  69. # [00:52] <othermaciej> the way this prevents exploits is that a function defined in a frame when the frame had a different document, but somehow persisted, sees the old global variables, not the new global variables
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  71. # [00:52] <othermaciej> unless it stored a reference to the outer window, but in that case, a security check applies
  72. # [00:52] <othermaciej> the kind of exploit this is trying to prevent is:
  73. # [00:52] <othermaciej> evil.com has a top-level document with a subframe, also on evil.com
  74. # [00:53] <othermaciej> the inner frame defines a function, and passes it to the outer frame
  75. # [00:53] <othermaciej> the attacker navigates the subframe to victim.com
  76. # [00:53] <othermaciej> in a naiive implementation of persistent global objects, the saved function has access to the global variables and document of victim.com
  77. # [00:54] <othermaciej> but split window prevents that, because the saved function sees the old global variables
  78. # [00:54] <othermaciej> I will also note, this kind of design makes it much easier to implement a back-forward cache
  79. # [00:54] <othermaciej> it greatly simplified our page cache implementation
  80. # [00:54] <Hixie> (the spec prevents it by refusing to run the function)
  81. # [00:54] <Hixie> so as far as i can tell, what you describe violates the EcmaScript spec
  82. # [00:54] <othermaciej> right - refusing to run the function is not a practical option, because it would require a security check at every JS-to-JS call boundary
  83. # [00:55] <Hixie> specifically section 10.2.1, which says the scope chain and |this| are the same object.
  84. # [00:55] <Hixie> are you in the ecmascript meeting by any chance?
  85. # [00:55] <othermaciej> the one happening today? no
  86. # [00:55] <othermaciej> but I can raise this issue with the ECMAScript group
  87. # [00:55] <Hixie> k
  88. # [00:55] <Hixie> that would be good
  89. # [00:55] <othermaciej> I'm not sure if the 'this' behavior is essential for compatibility
  90. # [00:55] <Hixie> since apparently i'm going to make HTML5 violate the spec
  91. # [00:55] <othermaciej> I know the fact that 'window' returns the outer reference is
  92. # [00:56] <Hixie> which window is the one with the Math object on it? outer or inner?
  93. # [00:56] <Hixie> and do any calls to outer just forward to the current inner?
  94. # [00:57] <othermaciej> inner is the one that really has a Math property - the outer forwards to the inner, so as far as anyone can observe, it also has a Math property pointing to the same object
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  96. # [00:57] <Hixie> does the outer object's prototype change dynamically? or does it just appear to have teh inner's prototype?
  97. # [00:57] <othermaciej> now you found something that I actually need to look up :-)
  98. # [00:57] <Hixie> heh
  99. # [00:57] <othermaciej> or better yet ask weinig
  100. # [00:57] <othermaciej> weinig: ayt?
  101. # [00:57] <weinig> yes
  102. # [00:58] <Hixie> rubys: i'm in the cafe btw
  103. # [00:58] <othermaciej> weinig: how does the prototype of the outer window work, with respect to split window?
  104. # [00:58] <weinig> othermaciej: it should not be visible to the user
  105. # [00:58] <othermaciej> weinig: does it change on navigation or is it just totally separate from the inner prototype?
  106. # [00:58] <othermaciej> weinig: ok
  107. # [00:58] <weinig> othermaciej: it should always reflect the prototype of the current inner window
  108. # [00:59] <othermaciej> so if you get the __proto__ property on the outer window, you get the current inner window's prototype?
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  110. # [00:59] <Hixie> weinig: so a = window.__proto__; navigate(); a !== window.__proto__ ?
  111. # [01:00] <Hixie> i guess i can spec this
  112. # [01:00] <Hixie> i've only rewritten this part of the spec about a dozen times so far
  113. # [01:00] <Hixie> :-)
  114. # [01:00] <weinig> Hixie: that should be the case
  115. # [01:00] <Hixie> k
  116. # [01:02] <Hixie> this is going to make the object returned by window look mighty hoopy in idl
  117. # [01:03] <Hixie> ok i'll do this later. time to find the js guys.
  118. # [01:03] <Hixie> bbl
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  129. # [02:23] <Lachy> It seems odd that no-one has responded on WSG to the question Steve asked about the language spec
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  131. # [02:32] <othermaciej> what question was that?
  132. # [02:37] <roc> Hixie: FWIW, AFAIK Gecko's scheme is exactly the same as what Maciej described
  133. # [02:39] <olliej> morning roc
  134. # [02:39] <roc> incorrect
  135. # [02:39] <olliej> or afternoon
  136. # [02:39] <olliej> :D
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  138. # [02:45] <Lachy> othermaciej, http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg38186.html
  139. # [02:46] <Lachy> and http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg38188.html
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  207. # [08:03] <zcorpan> hmm, <video controls>...
  208. # [08:03] <zcorpan> maybe the UA should eat click events when clicking on controls?
  209. # [08:03] <zcorpan> making the element effectively not interactive -- i.e. clicking on the video itself could follow links
  210. # [08:04] <zcorpan> although maybe we should wait for the captions stuff to be fleshed out
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  219. # [08:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: is there a difference between "special semantics" and "special requirements"?
  220. # [08:32] <Hixie> yes, but that doesn't mean i used them correctly :-)
  221. # [08:32] * Hixie checkes
  222. # [08:33] <Hixie> i think my point with <bdo> being different was that dir="" is actually required on <bdo>, hence it's a requirement
  223. # [08:33] <Hixie> but i'll change it
  224. # [08:34] <zcorpan> i'm fine either way i was just wondering about the destinction :)
  225. # [08:34] <Hixie> changed
  226. # [08:36] <zcorpan> if you'll forgive me for making more comments on editorial stuff: void click(); // shadows HTMLElement.click() uses <code> instead of <span>
  227. # [08:36] <Hixie> yeah, i have a note on that somewhere
  228. # [08:36] <Hixie> arguably it's intentional, too :-)
  229. # [08:38] <zcorpan> but looks weird :)
  230. # [08:38] <zcorpan> especially since i have a user stylesheet for html5 that makes <code> smaller
  231. # [08:39] <Hixie> heh
  232. # [08:39] <Hixie> that's silly :-P
  233. # [08:39] <zcorpan> there's a silly opera bug that makes <code> be 16px instead of 13px if you specify font-size:inherit as you do
  234. # [08:40] <zcorpan> and i like 13px
  235. # [08:44] * Joins: Mau`werk (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  236. # [08:45] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
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  242. # [08:54] <Hixie> zcorpan: that's not a bug.
  243. # [08:55] <Hixie> zcorpan: why would you want the font size to not match surrounding text?
  244. # [08:57] * Quits: dimich_ (n=dimich@72.14.224.1)
  245. # [08:58] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  246. # [09:02] * Joins: doublec (n=Chris_Do@124.6.218.34)
  247. # [09:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: because monospaced fonts looks larger than normal text
  248. # [09:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: browsers have a default of 16px for normal text and 13px for monospace for a reason
  249. # [09:08] <Hixie> yeah, i hate it and always set them both to 16px
  250. # [09:09] <Hixie> drives me batty that all monospace text is tiny compared to the rest
  251. # [09:09] <zcorpan> well i guess you're different than most :)
  252. # [09:09] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  253. # [09:14] * Quits: doublec (n=Chris_Do@124.6.218.34) ("ChatZilla 0.9.79-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  254. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> I also crank up mu monospace font size
  255. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> my
  256. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> the default is way too small
  257. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> I still am very skeptical that it aligns with what typical users want
  258. # [09:19] <zcorpan> (i've changed font for monospace that looks bigger than curier new so it's way too big for my taste at 16px)
  259. # [09:24] * Parts: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
  260. # [09:25] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
  261. # [09:25] * zcorpan adds html[lang="en-US-x-hixie"] .status { margin-left:-2px !important } to his user stylesheet and finds the result satisfying
  262. # [09:28] * annevk agrees with Hixie on monospace font size
  263. # [09:29] * Hixie wonders what on earth .status matches
  264. # [09:29] <Hixie> is that the things on the side
  265. # [09:29] <zcorpan> Hixie: yeah
  266. # [09:29] <Hixie> are they overlapping something?
  267. # [09:29] <zcorpan> no but they are touching the text exactly, i'd like *some* space between
  268. # [09:30] * Hixie wonders how many e-mails his last checkin will produce
  269. # [09:34] <gsnedders> Hixie: semantics be damned.
  270. # [09:35] <Hixie> oh not that one
  271. # [09:35] <Hixie> i mean the next one
  272. # [09:38] <annevk> Hixie, the note that suggests event handler attributes cannot be specified on the body element seems wrong, they can, but they do not listen to events dispatched at the body element
  273. # [09:40] <zcorpan> Hixie: i have a comment about the checkin!
  274. # [09:41] <zcorpan> Hixie: s/PUBLIC/SYSTEM/
  275. # [09:41] <Hixie> annevk: no, those even handler attributes can't
  276. # [09:41] <Hixie> zcorpan: thanks
  277. # [09:42] <annevk> why not? <body onload="">... works
  278. # [09:42] <Hixie> that's not the event handler attribute for <body> though
  279. # [09:42] <Hixie> it's the Window one
  280. # [09:43] <annevk> yeah, but it is specified on <body>
  281. # [09:45] * annevk reads minutes of yesterday's call
  282. # [09:45] <Hixie> sure, but the ones that are listed are the _element_ event handler attributes
  283. # [09:45] <annevk> o_O
  284. # [09:47] <annevk> "<masinter> new features shouldn't be added until they are agreed"
  285. # [09:49] <zcorpan> Hixie: did you consider about:blank?
  286. # [09:49] <Hixie> yes
  287. # [09:49] <zcorpan> do you consider it more misleading than about:legacy-compat?
  288. # [09:50] <Hixie> about:blank has all kinds of baggage already
  289. # [09:51] <zcorpan> so? :)
  290. # [09:51] <zcorpan> (i'm not arguing for it i'm just wondering why you rejected it)
  291. # [09:51] <Hixie> i've learnt to avoid dragging in baggage in the interests of not creating new things
  292. # [09:51] <Hixie> it almost always ends of being more complicated later
  293. # [09:52] <zcorpan> ok
  294. # [09:55] <Hixie> ok bed time
  295. # [09:55] <Hixie> nn
  296. # [09:57] <zcorpan> nn
  297. # [09:59] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  298. # [09:59] * annevk tries to go through e-mail
  299. # [10:00] <annevk> it's like it's March-May 2007 again, christ
  300. # [10:16] <annevk> olliej, twitter is not the best place for rants :p
  301. # [10:16] <olliej> me? rant?
  302. # [10:17] * Quits: webben (n=webben@91.84.189.161) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  303. # [10:19] <olliej> annevk: :p
  304. # [10:19] <olliej> annevk: better?
  305. # [10:21] <olliej> annevk: ooh
  306. # [10:21] <olliej> annevk: workers?
  307. # [10:21] <olliej> whoops
  308. # [10:21] * olliej fails to remember you wouldn't be allowed to say
  309. # [10:21] * olliej continues the wait for next beta
  310. # [10:29] * olliej is now known as fakeolliej
  311. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> ah, March-May 2007
  312. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> the nostalgia...
  313. # [10:33] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  314. # [10:34] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-236.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  315. # [10:36] <annevk> fakeolliej, :p
  316. # [10:36] <annevk> "As usual, Boris, you're unable to listen to what others are saying." RB is such a nice fellow
  317. # [10:40] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-153c17b51f522725)
  318. # [10:43] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  319. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> annevk: when somebody complains about communication with Boris, you do have to wonder where the communication problem really is
  320. # [10:44] * zcorpan wonders whether it's worthwhile to point out on the list that there's http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/bookmarklets/reveal-comments available
  321. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> given that Boris conducts himself in discussions with quite a bit of genuine tact
  322. # [10:46] <zcorpan> when i find myself communicating with RB, i ususally stop digging
  323. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> I'd think most people would judge Boris to be a pretty good example of how to conduct onself in standards discussions
  324. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> me, on the other hand...
  325. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> I wonder if I might be the person in the group hated by the broadest range of participants
  326. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> and not just hated by one particular set of partisans
  327. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> maybe we should have a poll: Who do you hate the most? Who's the biggest problem in the group?
  328. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> with a binding resolution that whoever wins, he gets voted off the island
  329. # [10:54] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I thought Mr Last Week already did that
  330. # [10:55] <jgraham> At least I see Ben Millard around a lot less these days
  331. # [10:55] * jgraham notes that he has nothing against Ben and in fact came second in that "poll" himself
  332. # [10:55] <annevk> MikeSmith, ooh, could do a Battle Royale with all controversial standards guys; Larry, Ian, Roy, ... :p
  333. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> Steel Cage Death Match
  334. # [10:56] * annevk still has to see part two
  335. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, I saw that poll. I don't really understand why MLW is taking shots at you and Ben
  336. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> jgraham: or actually, why I wasn't included
  337. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> perhaps MLW considers me an interloper here
  338. # [10:58] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I think you are not percieved as one of Hixie's groupies. Whereas I follow him around on all his world tours.
  339. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> ah
  340. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> I think of myself as a Hixie groupie
  341. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> at least if Hixie had a fan club, I would join
  342. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> especially if group membership came with stickers I could put on my lunchbox
  343. # [11:01] <jgraham> You get a free copy of "Hixie sings the Blues"
  344. # [11:01] <jgraham> (not avaliable in shops)
  345. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> I guess some migh consider me a more of a Judas among the disciples, rather than a Luke the Beloved Physician
  346. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> jgraham: and you and annevk would be the Boanerges
  347. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> btw, there are some who believe that it wasn't Jesus that died on the cross, but actually Judas
  348. # [11:09] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: surely the Bible can't be wrong
  349. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: if you think it's wrong, the solution is to fork it with changes to the parts you don't agree with
  350. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> that's what some big religions have done
  351. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> like the part of the bible that originally said, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God"
  352. # [11:14] * Joins: webben_ (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-089dae17124684a3)
  353. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> some "bibles" change that to not say "the Word was God"
  354. # [11:15] <zcorpan> oh i might just do that. though i'm not sure what impact it would have with my relationship with my gf. considering that there have been wars over religion it's perhaps not the best thing to do after all
  355. # [11:15] <Lachy> zcorpan, is one of you theistic and the other atheist?
  356. # [11:15] <Lachy> I assume you'd be the atheist, if that's the case
  357. # [11:16] <zcorpan> i'd rather say i'm agnostic
  358. # [11:17] <Lachy> ok, good enough
  359. # [11:18] <jgraham> Lachy: Harsh
  360. # [11:19] <Lachy> harsh?
  361. # [11:20] <annevk> "good enough"
  362. # [11:20] <zcorpan> Lachy: btw, why do you assume i'm not theistic?
  363. # [11:21] <jgraham> Lachy: I suppose you could just have meant your guess was good enough, but it sounded like you were implying that being religious as not good enough
  364. # [11:21] <Lachy> zcorpan, cause you seem smart enough to not be
  365. # [11:21] <zcorpan> Lachy: are you implying that my gf is not smart?
  366. # [11:21] <Lachy> I don't know you're gf.
  367. # [11:22] <jgraham> Lachy: Which I wouldn't say in public, because it is probably doesn't help anyone
  368. # [11:22] <jgraham> (and I say this as a pretty hardcore atheist)
  369. # [11:24] <Lachy> jgraham, I think I've made it quite clear in the past that I have no respect for religion and I have no problem with insulting it publicly
  370. # [11:25] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-153c17b51f522725) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  371. # [11:25] <jgraham> Lachy: I have no problem with discussing it publically but insulting things that people really believe in, even if you think that belief is woefully misguided, is almost never a good strategy
  372. # [11:25] <zcorpan> Lachy: afaict whether one ends up being theistic has more to do with one's parents' religious view than one's smartness
  373. # [11:25] <jgraham> zcorpan: Statistically that is true
  374. # [11:26] <Lachy> jgraham, that's the BS argument that confuses respecting people's right to believe whatever they want with respecting what they believe
  375. # [11:27] <jgraham> Lachy: No it's not. I don't respect what a lot of people believe. I also don't think telling them that they're an idiot because they believe it is a good way to get them to change their minds
  376. # [11:28] * Quits: webben_ (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-089dae17124684a3) (Remote closed the connection)
  377. # [11:28] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-9869489f457e324f)
  378. # [11:28] <Lachy> zcorpan, in most cases yeah, but in general, people who tend to think more logically and/or scientifically about things, tend to move away from religion
  379. # [11:28] <Lachy> I didn't say anyone was an idiot!
  380. # [11:29] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  381. # [11:33] * annevk can't wait for lastweekinhtml5 to exploit that one o_O
  382. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> I hope Lachy understands there's a difference between not having any respect for religion and not having any respect for people who have strong religious beliefs.
  383. # [11:37] <annevk> http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/2009/01/lachy-appointed-what-wg-emmisary-to.html that was quick
  384. # [11:38] <zcorpan> ooh the first time i'm mentioned
  385. # [11:38] <zcorpan> i wondered what it would take
  386. # [11:40] <jgraham> zcorpan: If you like the fame I can make pretend aspersions against your gf's character just to get you publicity ;)
  387. # [11:40] <zcorpan> jgraham: no thanks
  388. # [11:42] * Joins: doublec (n=Chris_Do@124.6.218.127)
  389. # [11:42] <jgraham> Ah well, making up things could have been so much fun. Nevermind :)
  390. # [11:43] <zcorpan> you can make up things about me, though, if you find it amusing
  391. # [11:44] <jgraham> No, I guess it's much easier to make up things about myself. Less chance of actually offending anyone :)
  392. # [11:44] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  393. # [11:45] * zcorpan hardly ever takes offence even when offence is intended
  394. # [11:45] <Lachy> to clarify my previous statment, there's a difference between guessing someone's religious views based on their intelligence, and guessing someone's intelligence based on religious views. I did the former, not the latter
  395. # [12:09] <zcorpan> hmm, i wonder whether <input type=color value=...> should use the parsing rules in http://simon.html5.org/specs/html-color-attributes or not
  396. # [12:12] <Lachy> zcorpan, no, probably not
  397. # [12:13] <Lachy> because that would effectively mean normalising the value before submitting, which shouldn't be done
  398. # [12:14] <zcorpan> the spec already does that
  399. # [12:14] <zcorpan> "The value sanitization algorithm is as follows: If the value of the element is a valid simple color, then set it to the value of the element converted to lowercase; otherwise, set it to the string "#000000"."
  400. # [12:18] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  401. # [12:20] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-9869489f457e324f) (Remote closed the connection)
  402. # [12:20] <annevk> would make authoring tools more complex
  403. # [12:20] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-47bdfd2958625fd8)
  404. # [12:21] <zcorpan> you mean there would be authoring tools needing the parsing algorithm for <input type=color> but not other colors?
  405. # [12:22] <zcorpan> the spec only uses the parsing rules for this requirement: "the user agent should allow the user to change the color ..."
  406. # [12:23] <zcorpan> which wouldn't apply to an authoring tool afaict
  407. # [12:24] <annevk> when importing a document and representing the current color value an authoring tool would need to parse it
  408. # [12:24] <annevk> afaict this is the only place where you can validly put a color value
  409. # [12:25] <zcorpan> *shrug*
  410. # [12:29] <zcorpan> i would expect such an authoring tool would like to parse legacy color values too to be useful
  411. # [12:32] * Quits: doublec (n=Chris_Do@124.6.218.127) ("ChatZilla 0.9.79-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  412. # [12:40] <Lachy> annevk, how do you think I should resolve this issue about the term "node's subtree"? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0256.html
  413. # [12:40] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc4-flee1-0-0-cust339.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  414. # [12:42] <BenMillard> jgraham, I'm currently without funding for continuing the work I did during 2008 and 2007, so there's little I can contribute for now.
  415. # [12:43] <BenMillard> jgraham, I like how Last Week characterises me as a "Smithers"; he's cool.
  416. # [12:43] <zcorpan> BenMillard: who, mr. Last Week or Smithers?
  417. # [12:44] <BenMillard> zcorpan, Smithers :)
  418. # [12:44] <zcorpan> Lachy: i use "context node" pretty much the same way in http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core
  419. # [12:44] <BenMillard> but actually I think Last Week is cool too
  420. # [12:45] <Lachy> zcorpan, yeah, I'm not changing the term context node
  421. # [12:45] <BenMillard> Smithers is the only normal yet interesting character in The Simpsons, imho
  422. # [12:46] <Lachy> I tried looking up how xpath used the term and what made it so incompatible with the way I'm using it, but the xpath spec isn't really clear about it
  423. # [12:47] <Lachy> as far as I can tell, the definitions are, at least conceptually, relatively compatible with each other
  424. # [12:48] <zcorpan> i don't see the problem even if they were in conflict
  425. # [12:48] <zcorpan> it's a different spec
  426. # [12:49] <Lachy> yep
  427. # [12:54] <BenMillard> jgraham, when "Display all headings" is ticked in Table Inspector output, removing margins from the header information within each cell makes the output significantly more compact vertically.
  428. # [12:55] <BenMillard> jgraham, amounts to adding this: .__tableparser_heading_title {margin: 0;} .__tableparser_heading_list {margin: 0;}
  429. # [12:57] <BenMillard> jgraham, removing this fixes a "horizontal scrollbar to nowhere" in Firefox 2: h1 { width:100%; }
  430. # [12:58] <BenMillard> jgraham, oh and the -1 from the end of the margin property
  431. # [13:00] <zcorpan> BenMillard: who cares about firefox 2? :P
  432. # [13:00] <BenMillard> zcorpan, jgraham will if he cares about me. :)
  433. # [13:01] <BenMillard> jgraham, this makes header information within the active cell red so can be told apart from the green highlight: .__tableparser_active_cell .__tableparser_heading_container {background-color: #fcc;}
  434. # [13:06] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  435. # [13:09] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc4-flee1-0-0-cust339.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  436. # [13:14] <Lachy> I think the least disruptive change I can make to address the selectors-api issue is changing "node's subtree" to "node's subtrees"
  437. # [13:17] * Joins: hallvors (n=hallvord@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  438. # [13:25] <annevk> Lachy, how is it done for getElementsByClassName?
  439. # [13:26] <annevk> Lachy, seems to me that API would have the same issue, unless I'm missing something
  440. # [13:29] <zcorpan> if you only use the term once or twice you can probably use the expansion in place of the term - i did that initially for web dom core but there are quite some places where i use it so it got a bit verbose
  441. # [13:31] * zcorpan might be thinking about something else than what annevk is discussing
  442. # [13:33] <annevk> I thought there was a problem with "subtree"
  443. # [13:33] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments-3023.html#standards seems like an argument against XHTML...
  444. # [13:34] <Lachy> annevk, getElementsByClassName() does it by saying "... excluding any elements that are not descendants of the HTMLElement object on which the method was invoked." http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-getelementsbyclassname
  445. # [13:35] <annevk> I think I had that too originally
  446. # [13:35] <Lachy> but I'd rather not make such major changes to the normative prose at this stage. That risks introducing errors
  447. # [13:36] <annevk> the previous published draft still had wording to that effect
  448. # [13:38] <zcorpan> annevk: you mean xhtml is not a widely deployed standard/format?
  449. # [13:38] <Lachy> which one? The Nov 14 draft similar to the editor's draft
  450. # [13:38] <annevk> though you seem to define subtree already so I'm not sure what the issue is
  451. # [13:38] <annevk> zcorpan, right, i.e. IE doesn't do it
  452. # [13:38] <annevk> Lachy, the previous one
  453. # [13:39] <Lachy> ah, yeah. I changed that because there were some issues with it and wanted to make it simpler. I can't remember what exactly the problems were though.
  454. # [13:40] * zcorpan looks at appendix a of the tag finding
  455. # [13:41] * zcorpan notes that html5's appendices aren't marked as A, B, etc
  456. # [13:42] <zcorpan> gsnedders: maybe you should generate that if there's a class="appendix" or something?
  457. # [13:43] <Lachy> HTML5 doesn't have appendices
  458. # [13:43] * Joins: billyjackass (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-1-231.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  459. # [13:43] <annevk> Lachy, it seems you now just moved parts to a definition so whether it's simpler depends on how many levels of indirection you like
  460. # [13:44] <zcorpan> Lachy: "There are also a couple of appendices, defining rendering rules for Web browsers and listing areas that are out of scope for this specification."
  461. # [13:44] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-64-72.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Nick collision from services.)
  462. # [13:44] <Lachy> oh, I didn't realise they were considered appendices
  463. # [13:44] * billyjackass is now known as MikeSmith
  464. # [13:45] <zcorpan> actually they're numbered as normal sections, but Index, References and Acknowledgements aren't
  465. # [13:46] <zcorpan> which are clearly appendices
  466. # [13:47] <Lachy> indirection is good in this case because the terms used are relatively easy to understand without looking at the explicit definitions
  467. # [13:48] <Lachy> and it also avoids too much repetition
  468. # [14:00] * zcorpan wonders whether a validator should complain if <meta http-equiv=content-language> and <html lang> don't match
  469. # [14:01] <Lachy> it depends if they're slightly distinct meaning is preserved, or whether they mean the same thing now
  470. # [14:01] <Lachy> s/they're/their/
  471. # [14:02] <Lachy> Content-Language is non-conforming in HTML5 anyway
  472. # [14:02] <zcorpan> Lachy: still, if they don't match, chances are one of them is wrong
  473. # [14:03] <Lachy> I suppose it could be a useful warning to provide in addition to complaining about the use of content-language
  474. # [14:04] <zcorpan> content-language sets the "document-wide default language" while <html lang> sets "the primary language for the element's contents and for any of the element's attributes that contain text"
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  479. # [14:53] <annevk> http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/2009/01/mission-accomplished.html is he saying we became too soft? :)
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  483. # [15:08] <Lachy> wow, now with his mission accomplished, does that mean he's done with his trolling?
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  486. # [15:25] <jgraham> "Good Luck With That"
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  490. # [15:36] <Dashiva> "maciejellian" wasn't so bad
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  492. # [15:39] <Dashiva> The mission accomplished might also mean "It will soon dawn on me that firing back was easy, but bringing lasting change will take decades"
  493. # [15:43] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Jan/0143.html is interesting
  494. # [15:44] <annevk> hsivonen, ^^ you might like it
  495. # [15:45] <hsivonen> annevk: do you mean because V.nu fails to start if iana.org is unreachable? or because I don't subscribe to "follow your nose"? other reason?
  496. # [15:47] <annevk> "follow your nose" mostly and on a broader level it seems an argument against RDF and using URLs as identifiers
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  498. # [15:49] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, Larry's opinion goes pretty starkly against the established stance of the TAG
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  503. # [16:07] <annevk> all the respect for the i18n crowd, but recommending Unicode case-insensitive matching for effectively program identifiers and now Unicode Normalization does not do them credit, imo
  504. # [16:08] * zcorpan wonders whether i18n people have made comments on ecma262
  505. # [16:09] * zcorpan notes that ecma262 says in various places that it expects javascript source to have been normalized to nfc before reaching the interpreter
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  507. # [16:10] * jgraham has never understood if or how that happens
  508. # [16:11] <annevk> should be easy to test, ECMA allows variables with Unicode characters in them
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  518. # [16:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is it possible to mark only the attribute instead of the whole tag when there's a message about an attribute in v.nu?
  519. # [17:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: not with the current infrastructure
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  521. # [17:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: are you only keeping track of the locations of each parse event?
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  523. # [17:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes
  524. # [17:03] <zcorpan> hsivonen: couldn't you ad-hoc reparse the tag in the extract to find the attribute again?
  525. # [17:04] <zcorpan> but maybe it's too ugly a solution and more trouble than it's worth :)
  526. # [17:05] <zcorpan> http://www.whitehouse.gov/copyright/ has rdfa
  527. # [17:06] <zcorpan> <a rel="cc:attributionURL" property="cc:attributionName" xmlns:cc="http://creativecommons.org/ns#" href="http://www.whitehouse.gov">Whitehouse.gov</a>
  528. # [17:07] <jgraham> It also has <meta keywords=""> with a long list os misspellings of Barack Obama
  529. # [17:11] <jcranmer> including Barack Osama?
  530. # [17:15] <jgraham> Sadly, no
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  535. # [17:24] <Philip`> It also has <link href="file:///C:\Temp\msohtml1\11\clip_filelist.xml" rel="File-List" /> in a content-free Word document pasted into the middle
  536. # [17:25] * zcorpan just realized that tip #1 in http://blog.whatwg.org/styling-ie-noscript applies to firefox 2 as well
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  538. # [17:49] <Dashiva> How will Roy find his name attribute if we split out everything about conforming documents to a new text?
  539. # [17:50] <jgraham> Dashiva: He seems to think it should be conforming
  540. # [17:51] <Dashiva> Replace it with some other attribute or element that's obsoleted yet supported then
  541. # [17:52] <jgraham> On a different but related note, the discussion about whether h:tml should discuss the conformance properties of URIs seems like exactly the sort of hole that is likely to open up if we split tightly intertwingled things into seperate specs
  542. # [17:54] <karlcow> Dashiva: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/index/elements.html D O
  543. # [17:54] <jgraham> Dashiva: Presumably Roy believes that all the things he wants to know about should be conforming and everything else should be swept away under the rug
  544. # [17:54] * karlcow has to go
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  554. # [18:29] <Dashiva> Philip`, you have to do something about your namesake
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  560. # [18:41] <Philip`> If he's suggesting that because the WHATWG is a source of feedback that may result in creation of new drafts/sections and the feedback may not be seen by all the members of the WG and the editors might not say the feedback came from there, therefore it must be shut down ...
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  562. # [18:41] <Philip`> he should probably also suggest that the W3C Team be shut down for the same reasons
  563. # [18:41] <Philip`> as well as the rest of the web
  564. # [18:41] <Philip`> and also all forms of non-computer communication
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  567. # [18:42] <Philip`> A better suggestion is to not shut down any of those things, but just to make sure editors notify the group about where feedback came from if it wasn't directly from the group and resulted in new drafts/sections
  568. # [18:45] <hsivonen> sigh. I guess replying would be pointless if he doesn't see that my point wasn't about venue but about the inspectability of feedback
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  570. # [18:49] <Philip`> hsivonen: You did say "... feedback the whole group isn't seeing", and feedback anywhere other than public-html is going to not be seen by the whole WG; did you mean something more like "... feedback the whole group isn't able to see (even if they expend a bit of effort and visit some other web sites and mailing lists)"?
  571. # [18:51] <hsivonen> Philip`: good point
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  573. # [18:58] * jgraham suggests that very few people in "the group" see all the feedback on public-html either due to the volume
  574. # [18:58] <jgraham> Or simply due to the fact that many of the subscribed people aren't that interested
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  580. # [19:12] <Lachy> hsivonen, I wouldn't have bothered replying. The other Philip has been complaining about the existence of the WHATWG for a while and it seems quite typical of him to bring it up on seemingly unrelated topics
  581. # [19:16] <Lachy> besides, the way I interpreted your message was that even if the proposal was based on a WHATWG suggestion, or even any other public forum, it would still be nice to disclose that to the HTMLWG when submitting the proposal
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  607. # [20:32] <Hixie> wow apache actually finally removed the content type
  608. # [20:33] <Philip`> Now we just need to wait infinitely long until all deployed servers are upgraded
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  611. # [20:40] <Lachy> Hixie, do you mean it no longer sends a Content-Type header for unknown files?
  612. # [20:40] <Lachy> as of which version?
  613. # [20:41] <Dashiva> And how many linux distros will override it? :)
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  615. # [20:42] <Lachy> sicking, re http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jan/0661.html - the decision process isn't as bad as Rob's trolling makes it sound.
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  617. # [20:44] <Lachy> sicking, it's just that people who often fail to make persuasive arguments tend misdirect their anger towards Hixie, rather than actually listening and doing something to strengthen their position
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  626. # [21:15] <Hixie> the header of this page is longer than many of my actual pages http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/58958/notices/712181/recent=10;category=corp-insolvency-general;subcategory=moratorium-force
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  630. # [21:25] <Lachy> I decided to try out Habari as a replacement for WordPress, but it doesn't look like it's going to meet my needs
  631. # [21:25] <Lachy> I think my options are back down to writing a custom made CMS
  632. # [21:29] * dimich|lunch is now known as dimich
  633. # [21:29] <Philip`> Hixie: It doesn't seem an entirely fair comparison, since your pages don't attempt to provide the same data
  634. # [21:29] <gsnedders> Lachy: What "needs"?
  635. # [21:30] <Lachy> better control over the URL structure
  636. # [21:30] <gsnedders> ah
  637. # [21:30] <gsnedders> Yeah, it really doesn't have that
  638. # [21:30] <Lachy> if there are plugins for that, then that would be good
  639. # [21:30] * gsnedders sez ask in #habari
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  641. # [21:32] <Philip`> In terms of use cases for RDFa, has anyone pointed at something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_scraping and said RDFa makes it much easier for consumers (in the cases where producers are cooperating by marking up the data appropriately)?
  642. # [21:32] <Lachy> gsnedders, how much do you know about habari?
  643. # [21:32] <gsnedders> Lachy: A fair bit
  644. # [21:32] <gsnedders> Lachy: Still, #habari is a better chance than here :)
  645. # [21:32] <Lachy> on freenode?
  646. # [21:32] <gsnedders> Lachy: yeah
  647. # [21:33] <Lachy> I just don't want to start asking n00b questions in a developer channel
  648. # [21:33] <gsnedders> Lachy: It is the support channel too
  649. # [21:33] <Lachy> ah, ok
  650. # [21:42] <weinig|food> Hixie: do you have a second to give me your take on https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23651
  651. # [21:43] * weinig|food is now known as weinig
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  653. # [21:48] <Hixie> weinig: what do you want me to comment on?
  654. # [21:50] <weinig> Hixie: sorry, is a single retry a failure?
  655. # [21:50] <Hixie> weinig: if it's loaded from cache, on the reference hardware, then yes
  656. # [21:50] <weinig> Hixie: ok
  657. # [21:51] <Hixie> test 69 really shouldn't ever need to skip though, if it's loading from cache
  658. # [21:58] <weinig> Hixie: it is not clear to me why it is expected that relative speed of loading those 7 documents should be faster than running the javascript to get to test 69
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  662. # [22:13] <Hixie> weinig: they should load in zero time :-)
  663. # [22:15] <weinig> Hixie: caching is not magical
  664. # [22:15] <weinig> Hixie: it still might have to hit the disk
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  678. # [23:14] <Hixie> weinig: javascript isn't magical either :-)
  679. # [23:14] <Hixie> weinig: is the js really running faster than the disk can?
  680. # [23:15] <weinig> Hixie: it seems in some cases that may be happening
  681. # [23:16] <weinig> Hixie: but it looks like another issue was the reporter was doing a cached load in such a way that forced the resource to revalidated and reload
  682. # [23:16] <weinig> Hixie: if you don't use the reload button to do the cached load, the problem never happens
  683. # [23:17] <weinig> Hixie: though in general, I am not sure why cache behavior should even be a factor in acid3
  684. # [23:24] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-42-25.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  685. # [23:25] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  686. # [23:28] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  687. # [23:30] * Quits: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  688. # [23:39] <takkaria> hm, mnot seems to be missing the point on the Origin header
  689. # [23:40] <takkaria> I'm pretty sure adam has said "referer can not be used to protect against CSRF attacks, and here's why" about five times now
  690. # [23:59] <Lachy> wtf? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jan/0668.html - Does it not seem a little hypocritical to be complaining so vehemently about a very minor semantic issue with <a>, and then suggest a workaround blatenly using the <ins> element for a semantically dubious purpose?
  691. # Session Close: Sat Jan 31 00:00:01 2009

The end :)