/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-01 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Sun Feb 01 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  4. # [00:12] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-147-235.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  5. # [00:25] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  6. # [00:43] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  7. # [00:52] <Lachy> I updated the element summary template. http://lachy.id.au/temp/template.html
  8. # [01:09] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  9. # [01:10] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  10. # [01:11] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  11. # [01:17] * Quits: supergreg (n=Miranda@unaffiliated/supergreg) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  12. # [01:18] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  13. # [01:26] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  14. # [01:43] * Quits: tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  15. # [01:59] * Joins: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com)
  16. # [02:09] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-71-135-124-193.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
  17. # [02:20] <Lachy> I managed to write a simple python script using html5lib to read the spec source and find all the element summaries. Tomorrow, I should be able to extend the script to generate element summaries for the authoring guide
  18. # [02:21] <Hixie> neat
  19. # [02:21] <Hixie> let me know if you want me to do a POST to a particular url every time i do a commit
  20. # [02:21] <Hixie> that way you could have your spec autoregenerate when i update the spec
  21. # [02:21] <Lachy> yeah, it's a lot better than I had been doing, which involved a lot more manual work. This should at least spead up progress a lot
  22. # [02:23] <Lachy> you check in so frequently compared with me, and most of your changes won't affect the element summaries, so that wouldn't be worth the effort
  23. # [02:24] <Lachy> I would like some way to know that element summaries have changed, though, if possible, so I know I should regenerate that section.
  24. # [02:25] <Lachy> what do you think about the template design I linked above?
  25. # [02:25] <Lachy> any suggestions for improvement?
  26. # [02:40] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  27. # [02:47] <Hixie> the DOM interface part is going to be huge for some elements
  28. # [02:48] <Hixie> i dunno
  29. # [02:48] <Hixie> are the categories and suchlike going to be links?
  30. # [02:49] <Hixie> maybe the attributes and IDL should both just be <dl>s with name/definition pairs
  31. # [02:50] <karlcow> Lachy: feel free to share it somewhere ;) I mean the script
  32. # [02:50] <Lachy> yeah, they will all be linked once anolis generates them
  33. # [02:50] <Lachy> karlcow, it will be checked into CVS once it's finished
  34. # [02:50] <karlcow> cool
  35. # [02:51] <Lachy> Hixie, do you mean <dl><dt>Attributes <dd>attr1<dd>attr2 ... <dt>DOM Interfaces <dd>prop1<dd>prop2 ...</dl>?
  36. # [02:51] <Hixie> no
  37. # [02:51] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  38. # [02:51] <Lachy> or do you mean each attribute <dt>Attr <dd>description of attr
  39. # [02:51] <Hixie> the latter
  40. # [02:52] <Hixie> i was about to type an example but you got there first :-)
  41. # [02:52] * Joins: doublec (n=Chris_Do@118-92-147-136.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
  42. # [02:53] <Lachy> if each attribute was to have a description, I was considering using a table instead.
  43. # [02:53] <Hixie> that's fine too
  44. # [02:53] <Lachy> But then I'd need to write short summary descriptions for each attribute, though I wanted to avoid cluttering the summary boxes with too much information
  45. # [02:54] * Quits: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.22.19) (Remote closed the connection)
  46. # [02:54] <Lachy> hmm, maybe something like the comments for each attr in the HTML4 DTD would be ok. e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#edef-A
  47. # [02:56] <Hixie> just have the full descriptions there
  48. # [02:57] <Hixie> you'll probably have to split the attribute descriptions from the more meaty "how to use the element" text anyway
  49. # [02:58] * Quits: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com) ("Leaving.")
  50. # [02:59] <Lachy> maybe. it depends how much I need to write for each attribute description
  51. # [02:59] <Lachy> if it's a lot, then it's not really going to fit in the space too well
  52. # [02:59] <Hixie> on the web the space is infinite :-)
  53. # [03:00] <Hixie> i wouldn't worry too much about having the right template
  54. # [03:00] <Hixie> once you've got descriptions for a dozen elements or two, you'll have a much better idea of what you have to put in the template
  55. # [03:02] <Lachy> reload the template and take a look now
  56. # [03:07] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-71-135-124-193.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
  57. # [03:08] * Joins: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  58. # [03:13] * jwalden wonders if the HTTP spec will ever sanction use of Set-Cookie, WWW-Authenticate, and Proxy-Authenticate as they are actually used
  59. # [03:13] * Quits: doublec (n=Chris_Do@118-92-147-136.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("ChatZilla 0.9.79-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  60. # [03:14] <Lachy> wtf? Sam incorrectly defined the meaning of a strawman http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jan/0688.html and then Leif incorrectly pointed out something isn't a strawman, either by it's real definition, nor Sam's http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0000.html
  61. # [03:14] * jwalden suspects not, based on http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/129
  62. # [03:52] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  63. # [04:18] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  64. # [04:22] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  65. # [05:16] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  66. # [05:16] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-42-25.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  67. # [05:42] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-198-197.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  68. # [06:02] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@124-168-1-1.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  69. # [06:03] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  70. # [06:19] <Hixie> Lachy: i was surprised to see sam's suggestion of actually having people call each other out; it'll be interesting to see how such an approach fares
  71. # [06:19] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  72. # [06:19] <Hixie> Lachy: the attribute side looks good; i still think the idl side should use a similar technique instead of webidl
  73. # [06:34] <heycam> hey Hixie i'm here for a bit
  74. # [06:34] <Hixie> hey
  75. # [06:34] <Hixie> two things
  76. # [06:35] <Hixie> 1 - when you have a moment, i would appreciate your feedback on the WindowProxy section in the spec
  77. # [06:35] <heycam> k i'll have a look during the week
  78. # [06:35] <Hixie> (it's very short)
  79. # [06:36] <Hixie> 2 - we have to say that the "this" keyword in JS at the global scope returns the WindowProxy object instead of the actual global object
  80. # [06:36] <heycam> uh oh
  81. # [06:36] <Hixie> i'm unsure whether it's best to say this in WebIDL, with the JS binding stuff, or if we should say it in HTML5, in a JS-specific section
  82. # [06:36] <Hixie> (or in ES 3.x, but they probably don't want a forward dependency on html5)
  83. # [06:37] <heycam> so it's a violation of es3?
  84. # [06:37] <heycam> i haven't looked much into the whole split window thing: is it that "this" at the global scope returns one object, while a different object is in the scope chain?
  85. # [06:41] <heycam> as to whether it's more appropriate in web idl or html5, dunno
  86. # [06:41] <heycam> guess i'll need to look at what exactly it entails
  87. # [06:42] <Hixie> yeah it's a violation of es 3.1
  88. # [06:42] <Hixie> yes, the top object in the scope chain is the global object (the Window object for that script's Document)
  89. # [06:42] <Hixie> and the .window, this, etc, attributes all return a WindowProxy object
  90. # [06:44] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@210.229.158.64)
  91. # [06:44] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@207-118-25-126.dyn.centurytel.net)
  92. # [06:45] <heycam> so perhaps it needn't be a violation, it's just that evaluating the contents of a <script> is done with some extra futzing of this/scope chain, rather than being whatever a global code execution says in ES
  93. # [06:46] <heycam> in web idl, i don't say anything about what object is the global object, or what happens when a top level script is executed
  94. # [06:46] <heycam> i just say what properties exist on the global, and what their functionality is, etc.
  95. # [06:46] <Hixie> html5 mentions what the global object is, without mentioning its importance to js
  96. # [06:47] <heycam> would you want an explicit hook for html5 to define what's the global object?
  97. # [06:47] <heycam> (an explicit hook in web idl that is?)
  98. # [06:47] <Hixie> i'm ok with the current text, but i'm also very happy to make it explicit, sure
  99. # [06:47] <Hixie> if we do add such text, we can add text to make |this| different at the same time
  100. # [06:48] <Hixie> see a recent e-mail on whatwg about this for some background, btw
  101. # [06:48] <Hixie> from bz i think
  102. # [06:53] <heycam> so this behaviour is the same when executing a <script> as when, say, firing an event listener?
  103. # [06:57] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-198-197.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  104. # [06:57] <heycam> maybe web idl should have a definition for executing a script with a particular object in the scope chain?
  105. # [06:58] <heycam> i see the definition for "The script settings determined from the node" seems pretty generic
  106. # [06:58] <heycam> would you imagine this split window thing would be applicable to other languages?
  107. # [06:58] * heycam wonders why some <dfn>s are italicised now
  108. # [07:00] <heycam> it'd be nice if whatwg@whatwg.org mails had an Archived-At header, like w3.org lists
  109. # [07:00] <Hixie> sorry, had a real life distraction
  110. # [07:00] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-198-197.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  111. # [07:01] <Hixie> yes, the behavior is the same for all scripts, javascript:, <script>, event handlers, whatever. Though event handlers already have an explicit definition of the scope chain somewhere in html5.
  112. # [07:01] <heycam> so the only diff is the replacement of the scope chain object with some other object (the "inner" window)
  113. # [07:01] <Hixie> do other languages have a global object, even?
  114. # [07:01] * heycam shrugs
  115. # [07:02] <heycam> gotta go, bbl
  116. # [07:02] <Hixie> k
  117. # [07:02] <Hixie> later
  118. # [07:02] <Hixie> thanks
  119. # [07:04] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  120. # [07:06] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-198-197.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  121. # [07:38] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  122. # [08:38] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  123. # [08:42] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  124. # [08:42] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@210.229.158.64) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  125. # [08:53] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@c-24-8-217-41.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  126. # [09:30] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  127. # [10:00] * Joins: mlpug (n=user@a88-115-168-225.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  128. # [10:01] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-76-190.dynamic.amis.net)
  129. # [10:07] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L929b.l.pppool.de)
  130. # [10:10] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  131. # [10:16] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@207-118-25-126.dyn.centurytel.net)
  132. # [11:03] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  133. # [11:55] * Quits: mlpug (n=user@a88-115-168-225.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  134. # [12:08] * Quits: olliej_ (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  135. # [12:22] * Joins: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.21.63)
  136. # [12:35] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-147-235.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  137. # [12:36] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-147-235.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Remote closed the connection)
  138. # [12:40] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  139. # [12:59] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  140. # [13:33] * jgraham has parts of html5lib limping along in python 3
  141. # [13:34] <jgraham> Like enough to do html5lib.parse(b"<html></html>) but not enough to deal with the possibility of passing in a file object with the encoding set but the wrong error handling mode
  142. # [13:34] <jgraham> Which I don't really know how to deal with apart from saying "don't do that"
  143. # [13:36] <jgraham> This is, of course a distraction and I should really be concentrating on the MathML + SVG stuff but it is quite a fun distraction
  144. # [13:39] <takkaria> it's interesting. when it came to data interchange, people first jumped on XML for it. now they're jumping on RDF-in-XML
  145. # [13:39] <takkaria> I wonder if there's going to be an abstraction over that at some point, too
  146. # [14:22] * Joins: supergreg (n=Miranda@8.80-203-29.nextgentel.com)
  147. # [14:42] <gsnedders> Is it bad that Safari's lack of regex in it's find box is annoying
  148. # [14:42] <gsnedders> *its
  149. # [14:42] <gsnedders> ?
  150. # [14:52] <Lachy> gsnedders, I don't know of any browser that supports regex searching
  151. # [15:37] <gsnedders> Does anyone have any data about how common different character sets are?
  152. # [15:40] <karlcow> Lachy: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/6534 something like this maybe?
  153. # [15:43] <Lachy> karlcow, thanks
  154. # [15:47] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L929b.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  155. # [16:13] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  156. # [16:14] <hsivonen> http://video.dld-conference.com/watch/dTMYg3z?t=dld09 at 20 minutes
  157. # [16:19] <Philip`> gsnedders: Do you mean something like http://philip.html5.org/data/charsets.html ?
  158. # [16:19] <gsnedders> Philip`: yes
  159. # [16:19] <Philip`> gsnedders: I don't think anyone has any data like that
  160. # [16:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: That data there should be enough to work from
  161. # [16:20] <Philip`> Oh, right, I have data like that - that was convenient
  162. # [16:21] <gsnedders> Philip`: :P
  163. # [16:21] <gsnedders> I'd be interested in a bigger less bias sample, though
  164. # [16:21] <gsnedders> (Seeming dmoz is bias towards English)
  165. # [16:22] <Philip`> I don't think the concept of "less bias" exists
  166. # [16:22] <Philip`> You can just choose the direction in which you want the bias to be
  167. # [16:22] <Philip`> Ooh, a blizzard
  168. # [16:23] <Philip`> (dmoz is definitely biased towards English, and I think it's also biased towards western European)
  169. # [16:24] <Philip`> (so it's really bad for e.g. Chinese sites)
  170. # [16:25] <Philip`> *.uk: 161279 pages
  171. # [16:25] <Philip`> *.de: 295359
  172. # [16:25] <Philip`> *.jp: 119322
  173. # [16:25] <Philip`> *.cn: 7582
  174. # [16:25] <jcranmer> .zh?
  175. # [16:26] <Philip`> *.zh: 36
  176. # [16:27] <Philip`> Whoops
  177. # [16:27] <Philip`> That's because '.' was a regexp
  178. # [16:27] <Philip`> If I make it \. then there's 0
  179. # [16:27] <Philip`> (The other numbers don't change much)
  180. # [16:28] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yeah, that's my problem.
  181. # [16:28] <gsnedders> What's ZH?
  182. # [16:28] <annevk> hsivonen, interesting
  183. # [16:29] * myakura thinks those *.jp sites are years old
  184. # [16:29] <annevk> hsivonen, didn't know he was CEO of CC
  185. # [16:29] <annevk> (that Flash player they are using is also really cool btw)
  186. # [16:30] <Philip`> gsnedders: Alexa's list might be better, since it's got ~20K for *.cn (and similar for *.jp and *.uk)
  187. # [16:31] <gsnedders> Philip`: But do you have data for that? :P
  188. # [16:31] <Philip`> gsnedders: (though it only lists sites rather than pages, so it's entirely biased towards the initial entry pages)
  189. # [16:32] <Philip`> gsnedders: No, but you could easily download the list and then download a few thousand .cn pages and search them for patterns :-)
  190. # [16:39] <karlcow> Philip`: there would be benefit of having separate sets for different countries. I had this discussion with blooberry about the mama too.
  191. # [16:40] <karlcow> The issue is how to create these sets
  192. # [16:41] <Philip`> karlcow: The problem is that it would encourage comparison between datasets, and comparisons are very dangerous because you're usually comparing the bias of the samples rather than real differences
  193. # [16:41] <karlcow> There is also all the invisible Web. The one behind passwd or intranets
  194. # [16:42] <karlcow> Philip`: yes indeed, you have to always give the context of your studies, plus a bit of error calculations.
  195. # [16:42] <karlcow> There is nothing *true* in sample surveys, just giving you hints but not certainty
  196. # [16:43] * karlcow has suddenly a big wave of astrophysical studies and research coming back to his head
  197. # [16:44] <blooberry> With publicly available sets, the burden of determining the set is pretty much off the entity that is doing the analysis. Any other set requires a lot of extra legwork, both in getting and describing the additional URLs, examining its bias. Not to say that publicly available sets don't have bias, it is just that they are more easily documented.
  198. # [16:45] <annevk> can someone quickly tell me whether the character that e.g. &euml; represents can have multiple Unicode representations?
  199. # [16:45] <annevk> e.g. its own character and one using two characters that combine into one?
  200. # [16:45] <Philip`> karlcow: Error calculations don't seem especially helpful here - I can say "(4.56+/-0.07)% of pages in dmoz.org have property P" based on the sample size, but that says nothing meaningful about other data sets (e.g. dmoz.org yesterday or tomorrow, or some other selection of pages)
  201. # [16:47] <karlcow> Philip`: again context… and calculation of confidence depending on your data set.
  202. # [16:48] <gsnedders> annevk: What is euml?
  203. # [16:48] <annevk> data:text/html,&euml;
  204. # [16:48] <gsnedders> annevk: Yes, it has at least two representations
  205. # [16:48] <annevk> thx
  206. # [16:49] <karlcow> U+000EB
  207. # [16:49] <gsnedders> karlcow: Yeah, I could find that. I don't however know Unicode codepoints off the top of my head. :)
  208. # [16:50] * karlcow neither
  209. # [16:56] <blooberry> So, is there a way to use available URL sets that is both reproduceable and has the ability to improve the set in ways that are statistically meaningful?
  210. # [16:56] <karlcow> ah the combining diaresis is 0308
  211. # [16:56] <karlcow> and the diaresis is 00A8
  212. # [16:57] <karlcow> blooberry: as a downloaded set or as an accessible set ?
  213. # [16:57] * karlcow will have to explain that
  214. # [16:59] <karlcow> an URL set is "biological". It changes in time, because of the nature of the Web. So for example to compare the results of two different tools, we need a downloaded dated set of URIs and their content (and metadata going with it)
  215. # [17:00] <blooberry> karlcow: *nodding agreement*
  216. # [17:01] <karlcow> Then there is the quality of the set… and here same kind of issues than in astrophysics when I was doing star fields research. At a point you have to select the stars, because if you pick up randomly, you get many interesting stats, but not really usable in a scientific way
  217. # [17:02] <blooberry> What if you balance it between selected and random?
  218. # [17:02] <karlcow> I guess the balanced set helps you to test the quality of the random
  219. # [17:03] <karlcow> s/balanced/selected/
  220. # [17:16] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L929b.l.pppool.de)
  221. # [17:20] <karlcow> the selected set helps you to test hypothesis in a controlled environment. For example, new Web sites released by Web agencies (recent contracts) to see what are the new professional practices.
  222. # [17:22] <karlcow> on a Japanese only set and on a few years, we could also see for example if people are switching to utf-8 or not.
  223. # [17:22] <karlcow> without necessary knowing if it's a local choice or a constraints of the tools to produce Web sites.
  224. # [17:24] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@nat/apple/x-cf8b7c2f4b3eee75)
  225. # [17:24] <karlcow> blooberry: did you play with different user agent strings for the MAMA, faking the string to see the variability?
  226. # [17:28] <blooberry> That's been on my list of things to do. I played around with it once with the Alexa Top 1000 and had interesting results, but they were hard to interpret.
  227. # [17:28] <blooberry> I've never come up with the perfect way to compare the results between UA strings.
  228. # [17:28] <blooberry> I kept finding different things that were variable between versions.
  229. # [17:32] <blooberry> I pulled content using the latest UAs from Opera, FF, and MSIE, as well as the forthcoming Opera UA, as well as a UA called "foo" for comparison. 8-}
  230. # [17:34] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  231. # [17:36] <karlcow> blooberry: hehe. The Power of Foo! known by old monks in China for generations. They tackle issues on bad Web pages.
  232. # [17:37] <blooberry> yes, they are the experts in Kung Foo
  233. # [17:38] <blooberry> I found that I had to ignore both IMG references and hyperlink HREFs, because many sites randomize the arguments for them to aid tracking...it just makes the analysis job harder. ;-}
  234. # [17:40] <blooberry> At a certain point I was really wondering if what I was deleting was too crucial to throw away. I'm not sure of the answer to that.
  235. # [18:19] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  236. # [19:06] * Joins: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-76-190.dynamic.amis.net)
  237. # [19:06] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-76-190.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  238. # [19:21] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  239. # [19:25] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  240. # [19:27] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  241. # [19:56] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) ("leaving")
  242. # [19:56] * Joins: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  243. # [20:16] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@m290f36d0.tmodns.net)
  244. # [20:19] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L929b.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  245. # [20:20] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de)
  246. # [20:46] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@m290f36d0.tmodns.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  247. # [20:59] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@m290f36d0.tmodns.net)
  248. # [21:07] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@m290f36d0.tmodns.net) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  249. # [21:12] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  250. # [21:26] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-147-235.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  251. # [21:40] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@124-168-1-1.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  252. # [21:43] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@203-217-88-114.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  253. # [22:07] <Lachy> Looks like some people involved with HTML4All have started creating their own HTML spec http://html4all.org/mailman/archives/list_html4all.org/2009-February/001038.html
  254. # [22:07] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  255. # [22:12] <gsnedders> I'm just confused trying to read the wiki draft
  256. # [22:16] * Hixie looks to see if they have any good ideas worth taking into html5
  257. # [22:23] <Lachy> my script to generate the element summaries for the authoring guide is working well, though it's not quite finished
  258. # [22:24] <karlcow> they called it "4.1"
  259. # [22:24] <gsnedders> 5 > 4.1. EOF;
  260. # [22:24] <gsnedders> :P
  261. # [22:24] <karlcow> gsnedders: and you want candies with that?
  262. # [22:25] <gsnedders> karlcow: Nah, not really
  263. # [22:25] <gsnedders> karlcow: A minion that could write an English essay for me would be nice though
  264. # [22:25] <karlcow> or maybe an enhancer, because it seems there is an issue with the length of your thing
  265. # [22:26] <Lachy> gsnedders, do you know how I can use the html5lib serialiser to pretty print the output from my script?
  266. # [22:27] <Lachy> or at least print it in a way that doesn't insert new lines everywhere
  267. # [22:27] <gsnedders> Lachy: Not off the top of my head
  268. # [22:27] <Lachy> I'm using the example provided here http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/wiki/UserDocumentation#Serialization_of_Streams
  269. # [22:28] <Lachy> but it seems the print statement adds a LF after every line. Is there a way to stop that?
  270. # [22:29] * karlcow wonders if they built it from scratch or they if took the source of html 5 and changed some of the things
  271. # [22:29] <gsnedders> karlcow: Parts are from html5 (run through tidy and converted to XHTML 1.0 Strict), others are from scratch, as far as I can tell
  272. # [22:29] <Lachy> ah, it works if I use: "print item," The comma must suppress the LF
  273. # [22:30] <karlcow> that gives now html5, html 4.1, html6, hmm what else
  274. # [22:30] <karlcow> gsnedders: ah. thanks
  275. # [22:30] <gsnedders> Lachy: You probably want to just write to file directly
  276. # [22:31] <karlcow> http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/Inaugural_Members
  277. # [22:31] * Parts: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-76-190.dynamic.amis.net)
  278. # [22:31] <Lachy> gsnedders, I figured if I write to standard output, then I can eventually just pipe it to other scripts that incorporate those summaries into the main document
  279. # [22:31] <gsnedders> Lachy: import sys
  280. # [22:32] <gsnedders> Lachy: sys.stdout.write(item)
  281. # [22:32] * gsnedders shrugs
  282. # [22:33] <karlcow> hmmm mainly rob http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/Special:Recentchanges
  283. # [22:34] <karlcow> at least Rob does all the wiki edits
  284. # [22:34] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  285. # [22:35] <Lachy> gsnedders, thanks
  286. # [22:35] <Lachy> Hixie, this is the output from my script so far http://lachy.id.au/temp/template.html
  287. # [22:36] <gsnedders> Because authors love IDL!
  288. # [22:36] <Lachy> gsnedders, I need to do something better with the IDL, eventually
  289. # [22:36] <Hixie> Lachy: looks familiar :-P
  290. # [22:36] <Lachy> I just have to figure out what and how. For now, it's easier to just stick it in there as-is as a placeholder
  291. # [22:36] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-2009010213 [Firefox 3.2a1pre/20090201020604]")
  292. # [22:37] <Lachy> Hixie, it should. My script just steals all the content from the script and reformats it
  293. # [22:37] * Joins: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de)
  294. # [22:37] <Hixie> :-)
  295. # [22:38] <karlcow> http://code.google.com/intl/fr/search/#q=%22import%20html5lib%22
  296. # [22:39] <karlcow> http://search.koders.com/default.aspx?s=%22import+html5lib%22&btn=&la=%2A&li=%2A
  297. # [22:40] <karlcow> hmm beautifulsoup not a lot of results either http://search.koders.com/default.aspx?s=%22import+BeautifulSoup%22&btn=&la=%2A&li=%2A
  298. # [22:41] <gsnedders> It doesn't even include Anolis! :'(
  299. # [22:56] <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#the-html-vocabulary-and-apis
  300. # [22:59] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  301. # [23:00] <Lachy> karlcow, as you requested yesterday, the script to generate the element summaries is now in CVS http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/utils/
  302. # [23:00] <Lachy> see elements.py and elements.template.html
  303. # [23:02] <karlcow> excellent
  304. # [23:02] <karlcow> lachy++
  305. # [23:03] <Philip`> Lachy: "print item," prints a space at the end, which probably isn't what you want
  306. # [23:04] <Lachy> Philip`, ok. I changed it to sys.stdout.write() as gsnedders suggested anyway
  307. # [23:05] <Philip`> (Ooh, the ground is covered in snow, for the first time since ages and ages ago)
  308. # [23:06] <Philip`> karlcow: Your searches will miss people writing "from BeautifulSoup import ..."
  309. # [23:08] * Joins: webben (n=webben@91.84.14.159)
  310. # [23:12] <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#the-html-vocabulary-and-apis now has category descriptions, and appropriate links from each element summary
  311. # [23:14] * Quits: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.21.63) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  312. # [23:14] * Joins: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.21.63)
  313. # [23:14] <karlcow> Philip`: indeed.
  314. # [23:16] * Quits: olliej (n=oliver@c-67-164-125-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  315. # [23:19] * Joins: heycam` (n=cam@124-168-33-158.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  316. # [23:20] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  317. # [23:21] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@203-217-88-114.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  318. # [23:28] <gsnedders> gsnedders top tip: remember the syrup when making flapjack.
  319. # [23:29] <gsnedders> It doesn't work when you forget it
  320. # [23:30] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  321. # [23:31] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@124-168-33-158.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  322. # [23:38] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-014.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk)
  323. # [23:43] * Quits: annevk (n=annevk@213.52.39.8) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  324. # [23:53] * Joins: olliej (n=oliver@nat/apple/x-eafc60171c09b306)
  325. # [23:54] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  326. # [23:55] <olliej> yoyo all
  327. # Session Close: Mon Feb 02 00:00:00 2009

The end :)