/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Feb 05 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:07] <takkaria> conway's game of life with canvas, looking quite cool:
  4. # [00:07] <takkaria> http://takkaria.org/life.html
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  6. # [00:09] <ehird> nice, but...
  7. # [00:09] <ehird> life cells don't "fade away" :_0
  8. # [00:09] <ehird> *:-)
  9. # [00:10] <ehird> takkaria: "Randomise' doesn't work
  10. # [00:11] <inimino> wfm
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  12. # [00:12] <inimino> nice demo
  13. # [00:12] <ehird> inimino: what browser?
  14. # [00:12] * slightlyoff notes that this could easily be done w/ a <table> or positioned <div>'s
  15. # [00:12] <inimino> firefox trunk
  16. # [00:13] <ehird> slightlyoff: yeah, if you want to wait until the heat death of the universe to watch a glider gun
  17. # [00:13] <slightlyoff> ehird: ??
  18. # [00:13] <ehird> slightlyoff: they're sloooooooow to update.
  19. # [00:13] <slightlyoff> ah, so this only looks right on FF
  20. # [00:13] <slightlyoff> (webkit nightlies don't do the fading)
  21. # [00:13] <ehird> ahhh
  22. # [00:14] * ehird tries FF
  23. # [00:14] <ehird> It's slower now, but actually works.
  24. # [00:14] <ehird> That is a plus.
  25. # [00:14] <slightlyoff> also busted on chrome
  26. # [00:15] <slightlyoff> looks right on opera
  27. # [00:16] <ehird> Setting fade rate = 1 makes it actually correct Life.
  28. # [00:16] <slightlyoff> (but the slider is busted there)
  29. # [00:16] <ehird> It's certainly doing *something* on WebKit, but it's not Life.
  30. # [00:16] <slightlyoff> ehird: heh
  31. # [00:18] <inimino> Life finds a way?
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  39. # [00:53] <Hixie> i hate that <applet> starts with an "a"
  40. # [00:53] <Hixie> it means that all alphabetical lists of embedded content elements start with an obsolete element.
  41. # [00:54] <roc> I've figured out what this normalization debate is about
  42. # [00:55] <roc> people want browsers to handle normalization, instead of other parts of the toolchain, because browsers "have to" obey Web standards and other tools don't
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  44. # [00:59] <Hixie> heh
  45. # [01:00] <othermaciej> what normalization debate is this?
  46. # [01:02] <Hixie> ww-style
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  50. # [01:10] <Hixie> with opera's announcement of their new scripting engine, i guess IE is the only one still using a JS engine from the last century
  51. # [01:11] <othermaciej> it will make JS performance shootouts just look laughable
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  54. # [01:22] <roc> where's this announcement?
  55. # [01:22] <wilhelm> http://my.opera.com/core/blog/2009/02/04/carakan
  56. # [01:23] <roc> sound good
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  89. # [02:38] <Hixie> heycam: regarding the style sheet, i really don't want to go there. historically, we've had problems whenever specs don't stick closely to the official style sheet (e.g. CSS1's marble background). It also dilutes the W3C brand if the specs have different styles. I would recommend instead asking the pubteam to update their styles, so that all specs could benefit, not just hmtl.
  90. # [02:39] <takkaria> http://takkaria.org/life.html works in Safari and Opera now
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  92. # [02:42] <Hixie> takkaria: what are the survival and birth lines?
  93. # [02:49] <takkaria> they control the conditions of the game
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  95. # [02:50] <takkaria> survival 2 and 3 means that grids with 2 or 3 neighbours survive
  96. # [02:50] <takkaria> birth 3 means that areas with three neighbours get reborn
  97. # [02:50] <takkaria> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-like_cellular_automaton
  98. # [02:51] <takkaria> there are all kinds of funky things you do
  99. # [02:51] <Hixie> ah, it's a count, ok
  100. # [02:51] <Hixie> i thought it was the direction, which confused me
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  102. # [02:52] <takkaria> setting everything to full and then turning some off gives a nice symmetry
  103. # [02:54] <Hixie> setting the survival to a high number only and birth to a low number only gives what looks like static
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  106. # [02:59] <Hixie> i wonder if larry wants <font> and <frameset> back too
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  109. # [03:32] * Hixie stares at the cliff that is defining how <frameset> works, and ponders how to climb it
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  112. # [03:37] <Hixie> wtf, mozilla does things in framesets differently based on quirks mode
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  117. # [03:58] <Philip`> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/att-0032/image006.jpg doesn't seem like especially appropriate UI
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  144. # [05:58] <heycam> Hixie, what about the scripts on the page (dfn.js, toc.js)?
  145. # [05:59] <heycam> also, what was it that prompted you to remove the styles from the w3c copy some months ago?
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  148. # [06:10] <Hixie> heycam: it seems highly unlikely that the w3c would allow me to put scripts on a page when those scripts could hijack user credentials
  149. # [06:11] <Hixie> heycam: i do not recall when the styles on the w3c copy were changed
  150. # [06:11] <Hixie> or why
  151. # [06:11] <Hixie> but in any case i really would much rather all of this was done w3c-wide than have html5 be special cased
  152. # [06:12] <heycam> Hixie, yeah i suppose those scripts could mess around with member-private webapps on w3.ogr
  153. # [06:12] <Hixie> they could snoop around staff-only mailing lists, too
  154. # [06:12] <heycam> right
  155. # [06:13] <heycam> so i don't think it's a matter of html5 being special cased
  156. # [06:13] <heycam> rather that the style requirements are loose enough that most specs have differing styles
  157. # [06:13] <heycam> (but with some commonality)
  158. # [06:14] <Hixie> if the styles are lacking so much that all the specs have to work around it, they should be changed
  159. # [06:15] <heycam> yes, most moderately complex specs do need to have some local styles to produce nice looking content
  160. # [06:15] <heycam> and it would be ideal if the site-wide styles handled these cases
  161. # [06:15] <heycam> but fixing that seems to be a much bigger job than changing this spec
  162. # [06:15] <heycam> basically to what it was like before
  163. # [06:16] <heycam> brb
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  165. # [06:16] <Hixie> i'm not looking for a quick fix, i'm looking for a good fix :-)
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  182. # [07:35] <Hixie> IE makes no sense
  183. # [07:35] <Hixie> <frameset cols="1.5*,1.5*">
  184. # [07:35] <Hixie> is treated the same as cols="1.5*,1*
  185. # [07:35] <Hixie> "
  186. # [07:35] <Hixie> decimals on the number of the last entry in the list are ignored
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  192. # [08:04] <jwalden> only the last, or anything beyond the first?
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  194. # [08:10] <Hixie> only the last
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  196. # [08:10] <Hixie> also, i can't believe i'm speccing framesets. what i jip.
  197. # [08:10] <Hixie> what a jip, even
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  199. # [08:15] * heycam wonders if "jip" is considered more un-PC than "gyp"
  200. # [08:16] <heycam> or if the evolution in spelling has made it different enough from "gypsy"
  201. # [08:17] <heycam> s/more/as/
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  203. # [08:17] <heycam> and s/than/as/ :)
  204. # [08:19] * jwalden resists getting into a discussion about slur-ish words or phrases no longer being offensive in that manner when basically nobody thinks about the connotation when they say it
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  207. # [08:28] <Hixie> my three-legged cat just brought in a big-ass dead crow.
  208. # [08:28] <Hixie> good times.
  209. # [08:30] <nessy> sounds like the house of a wizard
  210. # [08:41] <Hixie> a highly incompetent wizard, if these cats are anything to go by :-)
  211. # [08:41] <Hixie> they're ridiculously adorable, but they're not the most competent at the stereotypical wild cat behaviours
  212. # [08:41] <Hixie> to put it mildly
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  216. # [08:51] <Hixie> oh lord
  217. # [08:51] <Hixie> IE distinguishes between <frameset frameborder> and <frameset frameborder=>
  218. # [08:56] <hsivonen> Perhaps it's just me, but I see the Dreamweaver profile screenshots as arguments *against* profile.
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  233. # [09:58] <annevk> ooh fun, we're back to @profile
  234. # [09:58] <annevk> and around it goes
  235. # [10:03] <takkaria> I find it kinda sad that rsayre is talking about things being "no worse than the status quo"
  236. # [10:04] <hsivonen> rel=profile misses the point by a mile
  237. # [10:04] <Hixie> so uh, can anyone explain what noresize does exactly on a <frame> element?
  238. # [10:04] <hsivonen> Swedish mile, even :-)
  239. # [10:04] <hsivonen> (Swedish one being longer than English)
  240. # [10:05] <annevk> Hixie, presumably it prevents the user from resizing the frame
  241. # [10:05] <annevk> Hixie, but it's been a while since I loved frames and knew all the details :)
  242. # [10:05] <Hixie> which frames, exactly? it seems to affect more than just the borders around the frame.
  243. # [10:06] <annevk> sorry
  244. # [10:06] <Hixie> lord, html4 is so bad
  245. # [10:06] <Hixie> "When present, this boolean attribute tells the user agent that the frame window must not be resizeable"
  246. # [10:06] <Hixie> there's a must!
  247. # [10:06] <Hixie> i've no idea what the must means, but there is one!
  248. # [10:06] <Hixie> an implementation requirement, no less
  249. # [10:06] <annevk> http://www.htmlcodetutorial.com/frames/_FRAME_NORESIZE.html
  250. # [10:07] <Hixie> (...for rendering)
  251. # [10:07] <annevk> guess you can't implement HTML4 on top of a table then
  252. # [10:07] <annevk> or what was that joke again?
  253. # [10:07] <Hixie> i already read that page
  254. # [10:07] <Hixie> and no, a table can't resize anything
  255. # [10:07] <Hixie> so that's fine
  256. # [10:07] <Hixie> it still complies
  257. # [10:08] * Joins: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-86.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  258. # [10:09] * Hixie tries to get IE to let him resize a frame, any frame, so that he can test which frames IE doesn't let him resize when he sets the attribute
  259. # [10:10] <Lachy> Hixie, IIRC, noresize prevents the user from moving any frame border surrounding that frame.
  260. # [10:10] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cframeset%20cols%3D%221*%2C2*%2C1*%22%3E%3Cframe%20src%3Ddocument%3E%3Cframeset%20rows%3D%221*%2C1*%22%3E%3Cframe%20src%3Ddocument%3E%3Cframeset%20cols%3D%221*%2C1*%22%3E%3Cframe%20src%3Ddocument%3E%3Cframe%20src%3Ddocument%3E%3C%2Fframeset%3E%3C%2Fframeset%3E%3Cframe%20src%3Ddocument%3E%3C%2Fframeset%3E
  261. # [10:10] <Hixie> Lachy: it seems to affect other borders too, especially in the case of nested framesets
  262. # [10:10] <Hixie> it may be that i decide that's a bug i'm going to ignore, though
  263. # [10:12] <Lachy> which other borders? In my tests, it only affected borders of that frame itself
  264. # [10:12] <Hixie> (nsFrameSetFrame.cpp has some pretty ridiculous code)
  265. # [10:12] <Hixie> Lachy: let's see
  266. # [10:13] <Hixie> Lachy: first, in IE, none of the borders in that example resize for me at all.
  267. # [10:14] <Hixie> oh, hm, no, i think you're right (testing webkit here)
  268. # [10:14] <Hixie> ok
  269. # [10:14] <Lachy> I'm testing Firefox and Opera
  270. # [10:14] <Lachy> Opera seems to be having trouble dealing with frames in live dom viewer
  271. # [10:14] <Lachy> I got it to crash
  272. # [10:15] <Lachy> gotta go, back soon.
  273. # [10:16] <Hixie> yeah it crashed for me early on and i didn't go back :-)
  274. # [10:16] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  275. # [10:17] <annevk> like anyone cares if <frameset> makes a browser crash
  276. # [10:17] <annevk> we call it a feature
  277. # [10:18] <Hixie> crashes are often security bugs, and are at the very least denial of service bugs
  278. # [10:19] <Hixie> woohoo, i finished speccing frames
  279. # [10:21] * Joins: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-76-102-160-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  280. # [10:23] <annevk> your sarcasm detector is in need of sleep :)
  281. # [10:23] <Hixie> :-P
  282. # [10:23] <Hixie> i blame frames
  283. # [10:26] <annevk> wow, does Dreamweaver really use "browse" for profile="", that's funny
  284. # [10:27] * Quits: webben_ (n=webben@dip5-fw.corp.ukl.yahoo.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  285. # [10:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: <font> isn't obsolete for ideological reasons, it's obsolete because it leads to media-dependent page design.
  286. # [10:30] <Hixie> (which leads to a poor user experience)
  287. # [10:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: you get the same design unless you can send media independence ninjas to remove a font color picker from every authoring tool starting with dreamweaver and word
  288. # [10:32] <Hixie> that's why <font> was allowed for wysiwyg uas for a whole
  289. # [10:32] <Hixie> people (including you) didn't like that approach
  290. # [10:32] <Hixie> s/whole/while/
  291. # [10:32] <hsivonen> I didn't, yes.
  292. # [10:32] <hsivonen> But it's not like people who don't use GUI tools would do <font face> instead of CSS these days
  293. # [10:32] <Hixie> right now the state of the art in editor UA design unfortunately doesn't really have answers for writing accessible media-independent documents.
  294. # [10:33] <hsivonen> so I think it's unlikely that allowing wysiwygism as conforming would regress non-wysiwyg authoring practices
  295. # [10:33] <Hixie> i wish i could share your optimism
  296. # [10:33] <annevk> making <font> conforming would make many people upset
  297. # [10:34] <annevk> in whatever form you pick
  298. # [10:34] <hsivonen> annevk: yes
  299. # [10:34] <annevk> as it is now only a few people complain
  300. # [10:34] <annevk> that's not really good criteria though :)
  301. # [10:34] <hsivonen> annevk: so is the policy for HTML4 features checking the level of complaints?
  302. # [10:35] <Hixie> that isn't the criteria for any feature, as far as i'm concerned
  303. # [10:36] <jwalden> annevk: dunno if you can answer, but why doesn't 10a1 include <video> support? there was a test build way back that did support it, and I was surprised to see it gone when I picked up 10a1 recently
  304. # [10:37] <annevk> jwalden, our test build only had the simple features, not the advanced API
  305. # [10:37] <jwalden> ah
  306. # [10:37] <annevk> jwalden, we are in process of completing our implementation though and it will likely be in the one after 10 though you never know :)
  307. # [10:37] <jwalden> I can understand that, wanting to do it right rather than halfway
  308. # [10:38] <jwalden> cool
  309. # [10:39] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  310. # [10:40] * virtuelv quite liked the idea of training an army of media/device independence ninjas
  311. # [10:49] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  312. # [10:58] <annevk> http://code.google.com/p/es-operating-system/
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  316. # [11:00] <Hixie> i'm mostly down to form controls now
  317. # [11:00] <Hixie> but i guess i'll do those tomorrow
  318. # [11:00] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-0c7a76a0b4803241)
  319. # [11:04] <annevk> Hixie, wouldn't blockquote, figure { margin:1em 40px } be better?
  320. # [11:05] <annevk> seems to me <section> also needs margin:1em 0 or equivalent
  321. # [11:05] <Lachy> hmm, Rob's suggesting the use of aural stylesheets. I wasn't aware that there were any implementations of those in screen readers.
  322. # [11:07] <annevk> I thought Emacspeak did
  323. # [11:09] * jgraham wonders how many users emacsspeak actually has
  324. # [11:10] <jgraham> Although I guess there might be a strong correlation with people interested in reading the HTML5 spec
  325. # [11:13] <Lachy> the other issue is that letting authors specify aural presentation isn't likely to end up with great results because the vast majority have very little understanding of the concepts involved and are unlikely to know enough to specify appropriate values
  326. # [11:14] <Lachy> it's better to leave such things to the experienced people developing the text to speech systems
  327. # [11:14] <jgraham> Indeed.
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  332. # [11:36] * gsnedders finally bothers to install Py3
  333. # [11:38] * Joins: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-0e36b06d144c760e)
  334. # [11:39] * Joins: hallvors (n=hallvord@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  335. # [12:05] <jgraham> gsnedders: For any good reason?
  336. # [12:13] <annevk> I'm not really sure what to tell RB. XML does codepoint comparison, not Unicode Normalization, period. See all XML parsers...
  337. # [12:17] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
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  340. # [12:23] <jgraham> annevk: Pointer? Can you just ask him for proof by example? e.g. make a testcase and show how expat, libxml2, etc act?
  341. # [12:23] <jgraham> See if he can find any library that does normalization?
  342. # [12:24] <annevk> he's arguing from his interpretation of the Unicode spec...
  343. # [12:24] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0149.html
  344. # [12:24] <Lachy> annevk, I wouldn't even bother trying to convince him.
  345. # [12:24] <annevk> it's like debating the semantics of HTML4 tables with him, I've the feeling
  346. # [12:25] <annevk> yeah, wasn't planning spending more time on this one, apart from maybe asking the XML Core WG, though maybe zcorpan can do that now :)
  347. # [12:26] <Lachy> when did zcorpan join the XML Core WG?
  348. # [12:26] <jgraham> Lachy: This week. Yesterday maybe?
  349. # [12:27] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
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  351. # [12:28] <zcorpan> hmm, i thought display:table would be a nice default style for <figure>
  352. # [12:28] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  353. # [12:29] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
  354. # [12:32] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cstyle%3Efigure%20%7B%20display%3Atable%3B%20margin%3A0%2040px%20%7D%20figure%20%3E%20div%20%7B%20text-align%3Acenter%20%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3EFoo%20bar%20baz%3C%2Fp%3E%0D%0A%3Cfigure%3E%3Cimg%20src%3Dimage%3E%3Cdiv%3EFoo%20bar%20baz%3C%2Fdiv%3E%3C%2Ffigure%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3EFoo%20bar%20baz%3C%2Fp%3E
  355. # [12:36] <Lachy> zcorpan, styling figure with display:table and legend with display:table-caption has some nice benefits, like being able to set caption-side too
  356. # [12:36] <zcorpan> Lachy: having display:table-caption by default makes it always appear on top by default
  357. # [12:37] <zcorpan> unless there's a rule figure > legend:last-child { caption-side:bottom }
  358. # [12:38] <annevk> maybe display:inline-block ?
  359. # [12:38] <zcorpan> annevk: for figure?
  360. # [12:38] <annevk> ja
  361. # [12:38] <zcorpan> i wouldn't expect it to render inline with other text...
  362. # [12:41] <zcorpan> actually it would maybe be nice if figure shrink-wrapped ignoring the <legend>
  363. # [12:41] <zcorpan> because i think usually the legend is no wider than the figure
  364. # [12:45] <annevk> maybe figure { width:min-intrinsic }
  365. # [12:45] <annevk> or whatever the latest version is
  366. # [12:52] * heycam ponders the significance of the destinations listed on http://70.32.90.124/images/ajira_boardpass.jpg
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  370. # [12:54] <annevk> http://tantek.com/log/2006/06.html#d17t2231 via http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/02wdn/slides
  371. # [13:19] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
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  373. # [13:36] * Quits: webben (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-5f2062b15f7d9674) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  374. # [13:48] <myakura> it's kinda surprising, but rather interesting to see that <h1> isn't closed by <p> in webkit http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api/disposition-of-comments.html
  375. # [13:49] <myakura> or html5 defines so?
  376. # [13:49] <annevk> Validator.nu does that too
  377. # [13:50] <myakura> interesting.
  378. # [13:50] <annevk> seems correct per HTML5 on first glance
  379. # [13:51] <jgraham> html5 changed here recently
  380. # [13:51] <zcorpan> ie nests the p
  381. # [13:51] <zcorpan> jgraham: i thought that was about nested headings
  382. # [13:53] * annevk changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  383. # [13:53] <jgraham> zcorpan: Oh, you could be right
  384. # [13:53] * zcorpan fails to see where http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api/disposition-of-comments.html has <h1><p>
  385. # [13:55] <zcorpan> myakura: ah, it has <h1></h2>
  386. # [13:55] <zcorpan> myakura: the </h2> should close the h1
  387. # [13:56] <zcorpan> surprising that webkit fails to do so :)
  388. # [13:56] <myakura> zcorpan: :)
  389. # [14:15] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
  390. # [14:23] <Lachy> oh, I'll fix that
  391. # [14:23] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  392. # [14:24] <Lachy> fixed
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  398. # [14:50] <Philip`> "Reducing keystrokes helps with legibility of the code" - that's why Perl is so much more legible than Python
  399. # [14:55] <myakura> compares "getElementsBy*******" to "$"
  400. # [14:55] <myakura> yeah that makes sense :)
  401. # [14:59] <jgraham> The proposal seems to have the rather significant disadvantage of being incompatible with DOM and CSS
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  407. # [15:56] <annevk> is making requirements on servers useful?
  408. # [15:56] <annevk> i guess it's the same as author reqs
  409. # [15:56] <annevk> opinions?
  410. # [15:58] <Lachy> annevk, in which spec?
  411. # [15:58] <Lachy> I'm guessing you mean in CORS
  412. # [16:00] <annevk> yes
  413. # [16:00] <Lachy> sometimes it's appropriate to specify server requirements, depending on the circumstances
  414. # [16:00] * Quits: hallvors (n=hallvord@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  415. # [16:00] <Lachy> HTTP specifies server requiements, for instance
  416. # [16:00] <annevk> i guess i'll just do it and see what happens
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  421. # [16:28] <hsivonen> annevk: the Origin draft specifies requirements on servers, FWIW
  422. # [16:29] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  423. # [16:30] * Joins: billmason (n=bmason@ip102.unival.com)
  424. # [16:30] <annevk> yeah, I'm doing it too now
  425. # [16:32] <annevk> still need to say that UAs actually need to use the ABNF for parsing and such
  426. # [16:33] <annevk> and fix a bunch of other non-normative things :/
  427. # [16:34] <annevk> i don't really like non-normative stuff; it's hard to tell whether it's correct
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  429. # [16:36] * hsivonen wonders if Google Latitude has anything to do with the Jaiku team and whether it works together with Yahoo! FireEagle
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  433. # [16:41] <hsivonen> I wonder if Philip TAYLOR realizes that my native language isn't invariant under Unicode normalization
  434. # [16:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: Writing from the ground new code; need stuff only in 2.6+, so may as well go for 3
  435. # [16:49] <Lachy> I wonder if anyone has done a study to see how many class names and IDs use non-ASCII characters, and if any, how many of those potentially suffer from normalisation issues
  436. # [16:51] <Lachy> Philip`, http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/index appears to be broken. Is there a more updated version of that survey that's isnt broken?
  437. # [16:51] <gsnedders> jgraham: How are you getting on with html5lib and Py3?
  438. # [16:52] <Philip`> Lachy: Oops, that shouldn't be broken
  439. # [16:53] <Philip`> Oh, yes it should
  440. # [16:53] <Philip`> Well, it wasn't directly intentional
  441. # [16:54] <Philip`> (I turned off Postgres because I didn't think I was using it for anything and wanted to save memory)
  442. # [16:54] <Philip`> Lachy: It should work now
  443. # [16:55] <Lachy> Philip`, does that one have all the most recent data, despite having 2007-07-17 in the URL?
  444. # [16:55] <Philip`> Lachy: No, it has data from 2007-07-17
  445. # [16:56] <Lachy> where's the latest one?
  446. # [16:56] <Philip`> Lachy: See e.g. the first paragraph
  447. # [16:56] <Philip`> Lachy: It's not online
  448. # [16:56] <Lachy> oh, I thought you had published more recent data
  449. # [16:56] <Philip`> (That online database thing is unscalable when I have 130K pages)
  450. # [16:56] <Lachy> that doesn't appear to have collected any data on class and id values
  451. # [16:56] <jgraham> gsnedders: html5lib seems to mostly work in python 3 for some definition of mostly which means "all the bits I cared enough to get working and only if you don't do certian things like try to pass it a file not opened in binary mode"
  452. # [16:57] <Philip`> Lachy: I've published random bits of data, a few indexed at http://philip.html5.org/data.html and the rest just mentioned on IRC or mailing lists
  453. # [16:57] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-4be6ff9bbae4ed70)
  454. # [16:57] <Philip`> Lachy: I could get a list of class and id attribute values from my latest data fairly easily
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  456. # [16:58] <Lachy> ok, I'm specifically looking for an answer to my previous question about non-ASCII values and potential normalisation issues
  457. # [16:59] <Philip`> Lachy: It would probably be hard to get meaningful results, since I don't have many pages from interesting languages
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  459. # [17:01] <Lachy> ok
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  479. # [18:36] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe making an XML file containing an <attribute uri="..." element="..." name="..." value="..."/> for every single attribute in all my pages wasn't the bestest idea ever
  480. # [18:37] <Philip`> since the output file is about 5GB
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  484. # [18:42] <Philip`> Hooray for gzip
  485. # [18:42] <Philip`> Now only ~300MB, and only takes about thirty seconds to grep
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  494. # [18:53] <Philip`> Lachy: Out of 130K pages, I see 277 with non-ASCII id values, and 260 with non-ASCII class values
  495. # [18:54] * Philip` checks whether any of his code is silently normalising stuff
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  500. # [19:07] <rubys1> "The server at wiki.whatwg.org is taking too long to respond." -- anybody else see this?
  501. # [19:07] <takkaria> aye
  502. # [19:08] * rubys1 is now known as rubys
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  504. # [19:09] <yorick> why isn't event.dataTranfer available during a dragover event?
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  506. # [19:16] * Philip` finds that his code wasn't normalising stuff, but he was forgetting to decode the input as UTF-8 before testing whether it was normalised
  507. # [19:16] <Philip`> Lachy: As far as I can see, all of the non-ASCII id and class values are in NFC
  508. # [19:17] <Philip`> (Some are also in NFD, and NFKC, and NFKD, but they're all still NFC too)
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  515. # [19:30] <Philip`> Lachy: http://philip.html5.org/data/non-ascii-class-values.txt / http://philip.html5.org/data/non-ascii-id-values.txt
  516. # [19:32] <Philip`> (Obvious problems are the lack of data for most interesting languages, and frequent encoding detection failures)
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  575. # [23:46] * Hixie considers defining the rendering section using xbl
  576. # [23:48] * Quits: mstange (n=markus@buntes215.wohnheim.uni-kl.de) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-2009010213 [Firefox 3.2a1pre/20090201020604]")
  577. # [23:51] <Lachy> Hixie, for which elements would you need XBL?
  578. # [23:51] <Hixie> <details>, all the form controls...
  579. # [23:51] <Lachy> ok
  580. # Session Close: Fri Feb 06 00:00:00 2009

The end :)