/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-09 / end

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  71. # [07:51] <hsivonen> Re: <legend>: I think we should just mint a new tag name--even if ugly. For example, <figcaption>.
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  74. # [08:24] <jruderman> <fignetwon>
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  107. # [12:01] <yecril71> If you put an immediate script after a deferred CSS,
  108. # [12:01] <yecril71> the script need not see the CSS.
  109. # [12:01] <yecril71> (and CSS can be deferred without warning).
  110. # [12:02] <yecril71> In order to provide for such a dependency,
  111. # [12:02] <yecril71> you can put the CSS-dependent code in the style element’s load handler.
  112. # [12:06] <yecril71> Why is createScript more appropriate than createElement("script")?
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  115. # [12:12] <Lachy> yecril71, what are you talking about?
  116. # [12:13] <annevk5> he doesn't post the mailing list but instead comments here
  117. # [12:14] <Lachy> it would be nice if he gave some context, like mentioning the thread or something
  118. # [12:14] <jgraham> Maybe he just didn't like the tumbleweed
  119. # [12:16] <yecril71> We do not have tumbleweed in Poland.
  120. # [12:17] <yecril71> The thread is Re: [whatwg] defer on style, depends
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  123. # [12:29] <yecril71> Unstyled content is ugly/unreadable in the following cases:
  124. # [12:29] <yecril71> * when the text contains formulas that cannot be displayed otherwise,
  125. # [12:30] <yecril71> * when the content uses custom fonts (e.g. when the language it is in is not supported by contemporary operating systems),
  126. # [12:31] <yecril71> * when it uses CSS for semantic images (bad, but necessary because MSIE is broken)
  127. # [12:31] * zcorpan looks at http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webforum.nu%2F and wonders whether the output would be more useful if the "downplayed errors" were implemented
  128. # [12:32] <virtuelv> hm
  129. # [12:32] <virtuelv> "Use alt text infotips to describe graphics."
  130. # [12:32] <yecril71> * when the author is HTML-incompetent (bad).
  131. # [12:32] <virtuelv> from MS HiG: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb545462.aspx?ppud=4
  132. # [12:34] <yecril71> The HTML5 specification is an example of a document that is actually better viewed without CSS.
  133. # [12:34] <yecril71> (At least, in MSIE).
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  135. # [12:37] <zcorpan> gsnedders: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Fspecs%2Fxml-stylesheet5 could you fix this? :P
  136. # [12:40] <zcorpan> Lachy: in the html5 reference it might be useful to list event handler attributes that are likely to be useful specifically for a certain element (e.g. those related to media elements)
  137. # [12:45] <zcorpan> ie8 finally has a menu item to disable stylesheets
  138. # [12:47] <Lachy> zcorpan, which attributes specifically?
  139. # [12:48] <Lachy> zcorpan, please file a bug or send mail http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=HTML%20WG&component=Developer%27s%20Guide
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  141. # [12:54] <yecril71> MSIE7 developer toolbar allows disabling CSS as well
  142. # [12:57] <Lachy> Do these events have associated on[event]="" content attributes? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#mediaevents
  143. # [12:57] <annevk5> yes
  144. # [12:57] <Lachy> I can't find them in the spec
  145. # [12:58] <annevk5> soon in a HTML 5 spec near you and such
  146. # [12:58] <Lachy> zcorpan, were they the attributes you're talking about?
  147. # [12:59] <Lachy> if so, then they will get included in the html5 reference once Hixie includes them in the spec.
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  149. # [13:19] <zcorpan> Lachy: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6475
  150. # [13:20] <zcorpan> Lachy: or you could take the other approach i thought of
  151. # [13:20] <zcorpan> i.e. listing the events that are fired
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  153. # [13:24] <Lachy> zcorpan, what's the other approach you thought of?
  154. # [13:25] <Lachy> oh, do you mean "listing the events that are fired" is the other approach?
  155. # [13:26] <zcorpan> yes
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  157. # [13:27] <annevk5> makes sense for HTML5 itself as well I think
  158. # [13:28] <annevk5> listing events that are dispatched
  159. # [13:28] <Lachy> if the spec lists those in the summary boxes, then that would be easier for my script to just extract them all
  160. # [13:49] <hsivonen> what's the 0xFDD0 to 0xFDEF range in Unicode for?
  161. # [13:50] <hsivonen> other than eye of the basilisk, of course
  162. # [13:51] <hsivonen> fun, fun, fun. 0xFDD0 to 0xFDEF is allowed in XML 1.0 but gets special treatment in HTML5 NCR expansion
  163. # [14:17] <jgraham> hsivonen: I guess you already know this but the Unicode standard is pretty vauge about the purpose of that range. It just says they are "non character code points" that happen to be inside a block of arabic characters for historic reasons
  164. # [14:18] <jgraham> It seems like XML is wrong per unicode if it allows these characters:
  165. # [14:18] <jgraham> "Applications are free to use any of these noncharacter code points internally but should
  166. # [14:18] <jgraham> never attempt to exchange them
  167. # [14:18] <jgraham> "
  168. # [14:19] <zcorpan> something that xml 1.0 6th ed should fix?
  169. # [14:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the XML Core WG has knowingly not fixed this
  170. # [14:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: but has instead put an informative note about the state of affairs in XML
  171. # [14:20] <hsivonen> In my opinion, general-purpose specs like XML shouldn't try to limit data flow except for U+0000
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  173. # [14:21] <hsivonen> that is, I don't see broadening the set of ill-formed streams solving Real Problems
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  175. # [14:27] <takkaria> heh, the issues graph hsays that Hixie will be finished with email as of this Christmas
  176. # [14:27] <jgraham> Does anyone know what a * means in the Simple_Uppercase_Mapping field of UnicodeData.txt?
  177. # [14:28] <jgraham> Or am I miscountin again...
  178. # [14:29] <jgraham> Oh, I think I can't count
  179. # [14:45] <gsnedders> zcorpan: libxml serializer bug, I think. Using html5lib and it is fine
  180. # [14:45] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  181. # [14:46] * jgraham promises to upgrade pms.net "Real Soon Now"
  182. # [14:48] <gsnedders> jgraham: What does it use? What parser and serializer?
  183. # [14:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: I has a whole pile of "advanced options" basically all the ones that anolis supports from the command line
  184. # [14:49] <annevk5> XML does not do Unicode Normalization either...
  185. # [14:51] <hsivonen> annevk5: the problem statement for the normalization thread should probably be written in terms of ability to type natural-language words instead of defining the problem in terms of the concept of normalization
  186. # [14:51] <hsivonen> for example, the fi ligature or the ohm sign are pretty irrelevant to enabling other natural languages on the same level as English
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  189. # [14:53] <annevk5> I think I'll wait for the result of that wiki project and then see where this is going
  190. # [14:54] <hsivonen> I don't want to get into a wiki edit war. I guess I'll add an alternative problem statement to the wiki alongside the current one at some point.
  191. # [14:54] <annevk5> and meanwhile object to adding anything regarding it to CSS specifications may someone suggest that (fantasai did raise some issues with proposed solutions I do not agree with)
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  199. # [15:30] <Dashiva> The listserv needs better AI. It should recognize that it's received the same message to both @lists.whatwg.org and @whatwg.org.
  200. # [15:32] <Lachy> people should just stop sending to @lists.whatwg.org, and use @whatwg.org only
  201. # [15:32] <Dashiva> That would be nice, but we know how well educating people works ;)
  202. # [15:33] <Lachy> of course, the education system works perfectly. So what's the problem? ;-)
  203. # [15:35] <Lachy> which mail in particular was received twice? I don't see any
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  214. # [16:02] <beowulf> whatwg types, do you think it's important for students studying web design to be able to write html to standard?
  215. # [16:03] <annevk5> sort of depends on whether they actually wanna write code or just design, no?
  216. # [16:03] <jgraham> I don't really understand what "studying web design" means
  217. # [16:04] <jgraham> Like, practially what does such a course cover
  218. # [16:05] <Dashiva> Lachy: Maybe your client removes duplicates. It was smylers' on style
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  230. # [16:53] <hsivonen> annevk5: did you see my alternative normalization problem statement? did it make sense?
  231. # [16:54] <annevk5> yes and yes
  232. # [16:54] <hsivonen> good
  233. # [16:55] <annevk5> I would love to hear actual developer feedback on this issue rather than theoretical arguments
  234. # [16:56] <hsivonen> I would love to hear actual Vietnamese etc. Web developer feedback
  235. # [16:56] <annevk5> indeed, it's not like the internet is brand new there although it is used less most likely
  236. # [16:58] <annevk5> people at work said that they never heard this was a problem for e.g. Chinese and Japanese
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  238. # [16:58] <hsivonen> annevk5: this problem doesn't apply to Chinese and Japanese to any noticeable extent
  239. # [16:59] <annevk5> k, I wonder why Richard lists them then
  240. # [16:59] <hsivonen> (even though it is possible to dig up a case where you could construct a case that applies to Chinese; see example given by Rob Burns)
  241. # [17:00] <hsivonen> In theory, the issue applies to European languages and Korean all the time, but in practice the input methods normalize, so it's not a problem in practice
  242. # [17:01] <hsivonen> aside: the European and Korean markets would reject using NFD for interchange so hard, that it's not even debatable to use anything but NFC if one wants one normalization form to rule them all
  243. # [17:02] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  244. # [17:02] <annevk5> what does for Chinese and Japanese, does that go for Arabic as well?
  245. # [17:03] <jgraham> hsivonen: I thought it applied to Japanese because of emphasis dots or something. Although I don't know why one would put an emphasis dot in an identifier
  246. # [17:03] <jgraham> Oh, wait there's no NFC
  247. # [17:03] <jgraham> for that
  248. # [17:03] <jgraham> ignore me
  249. # [17:03] <hsivonen> annevk5: I haven't studied the applicability of the issue to Arabic vowels
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  251. # [17:04] <hsivonen> annevk5: but Arabic--in theory--has presentation forms, but then presentation forms equivalence is unaddressed for English, too
  252. # [17:06] <jgraham> hsivonen: Do you know why unicode has seperate codepoints corresponding to presentation forms? That was news to me until recently and it seems rather insane
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  254. # [17:07] <hsivonen> jgraham: presentation forms that have distinct code points in legacy encodings (such as MacRoman for fi and fl ligatures) have distinct code points in Unicode
  255. # [17:07] <jgraham> hsivonen: OK, I guessed it would be something like that. Is it now considered a mistake?
  256. # [17:07] <jgraham> (not that that helps of course)
  257. # [17:07] <hsivonen> jgraham: by whom? :-)
  258. # [17:08] <jgraham> hsivonen: Popular opinion amongst unicode people :)
  259. # [17:08] <hsivonen> jgraham: dunno
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  261. # [17:11] <annevk5> sounds like a mistake
  262. # [17:11] <hsivonen> annevk5: depends on your round trippability requirements
  263. # [17:11] <annevk5> fair point
  264. # [17:12] <hsivonen> today, of course, there's less need to round trip, since one can pretty much always output UTF-8
  265. # [17:12] * jgraham wonders if "the characters are converted one by one" in the ECMAScript spec is intended to mean "the characters are converted without reference to conditional mappings in SpecialCasings.txt"
  266. # [17:14] <jgraham> Which seems like a weird optimization because it only applies to one character in toLowerCase, none in toUpperCase, but breaks about half the time in toLocaleLowerCase in the cases where that function makes a difference
  267. # [17:15] <jgraham> s/SpecialCasings/SpecialCasing/
  268. # [17:15] <jgraham> and I guess s/breaks/produces incorrect results/
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  274. # [17:43] <jgraham> Hmm, there are more cases where it would make a difference to do things right
  275. # [17:51] <jgraham> (but they have to do with normalization)
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  303. # [19:15] <yecril71> MSIE and Firefox support deferring scripts now.
  304. # [19:15] <yecril71> I would not regard these as a "minority of browsers".
  305. # [19:15] <jcranmer> IE 5, 6, 7, or 8?
  306. # [19:18] <yecril71> I think all of them, although I am sure of 6+
  307. # [19:18] <yecril71> deferring is MS’s invention.
  308. # [19:19] <Lachy> yecril71, defer was in HTML4
  309. # [19:20] <yecril71> (indeed, better support for defer was the reason I joined WHATWG)
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  311. # [19:20] <Lachy> that seems like quite a small reason
  312. # [19:21] * yecril71 admits
  313. # [19:22] <yecril71> Hixie’s invited me from Bugzilla
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  344. # [21:13] <gsnedders> Goddamn you Python and your broken indecision about Unicode!
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  414. # [21:20] <jwalden> holy splitmeisters Batman!
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  501. # [22:12] <yecril71> Python is only a tool, and its only merit is that it is fashionable.
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  507. # [22:21] <yecril71> I think two-way bandwidth negotiation for streaming media would be a good thing.
  508. # [22:22] <yecril71> But I do not think this has anything to do with HTML.
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  522. # [22:53] * Philip` notes that the BBC iPlayer has a very simple but seemingly perfectly adequate bandwidth negotiation technology: there's a button that says "Play high quality" (with a tooltip saying it requires "a fast internet connection, at least 1Mbps")
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  524. # [22:56] * gsnedders wonders whether the F1 will be on iPlayer…
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  551. # Session Close: Tue Feb 10 00:00:00 2009

The end :)