/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Feb 10 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:40] * jwalden wonders if <input type=checkbox indeterminate> has been proposed yet
  15. # [00:40] <jruderman> annevk5: i heard that opera has some kind of protection against internet sites CSRFing intranet sites. are you guys willing to share a description of your algorithm and your experience with it?
  16. # [00:42] <Philip`> jwalden: It has been proposed, and then added to the spec
  17. # [00:42] <jwalden> hm
  18. # [00:42] <Philip`> jwalden: (See http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#checkbox-state )
  19. # [00:42] <Philip`> jwalden: Oh, except that's only a DOM attribute, not a content attribute, seemingly
  20. # [00:43] <Philip`> jwalden: but it's close enough :-)
  21. # [00:45] <jwalden> Philip`: I was specifically referring to the content attribute; it's come up in discussion of handling indeterminate in gecko, where a reviewer asked for a test to use static markup rather than dynamically changing it
  22. # [00:45] * jwalden shoots the attribute dual-definition
  23. # [00:45] <Philip`> jwalden: Ah, right
  24. # [00:46] <jwalden> and as far as I could tell from those various discussions, it was just "there isn't one" rather than "this is why there isn't one"
  25. # [00:47] <Philip`> IE doesn't support it as a content attribute
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  27. # [00:50] <Hixie> the spec just does what IE does
  28. # [00:50] <jwalden> sure, but when has that stopped anyone?
  29. # [00:50] <Hixie> (which by the way is pretty ridiculous)
  30. # [00:50] <Hixie> (e.g. it's actually a two-state checkbox even with indeterminate)
  31. # [00:50] <Hixie> (not a real three-state checkbox)
  32. # [00:51] <Hixie> (the indeterminate flag just hides the state in the UI)
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  34. # [00:52] <jwalden> I wonder how much form-submission code would get broken by serializing as name=indeterminate
  35. # [00:52] <jwalden> if any
  36. # [00:53] <Hixie> my intent is to not add new features if i can help it
  37. # [00:53] <Hixie> we have too much new stuff waiting for implementation already
  38. # [00:53] <jwalden> this is hardly that featureful, just bringing markup up to par with DOM properties
  39. # [00:54] <Hixie> there are literally hundreds of things on this scale that people are asking for
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  41. # [01:00] <Hixie> hasn't been much whining recently
  42. # [01:00] <Hixie> what's that about
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  48. # [01:19] <Lachy> I think the problem with figuring out how to improve the support for indeterminate checkboxes is that there aren't clear use cases to help determine whether or not submitting the indeterminate state to the server is necessary, or whether the state is merely something needed for UI
  49. # [01:19] <Lachy> I think the IE design is meant for UI-only use cases, not submission cases
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  51. # [01:43] <Hixie> indeed
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  55. # [02:25] <gsnedders> what does the s[i:j:k] syntax do in Python?
  56. # [02:26] <gsnedders> Ah, it changes the step
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  66. # [03:49] <weinig> annevk5: ping
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  74. # [04:56] <Hixie> woo, dreamhost use <canvas> in production!
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  77. # [05:02] <gsnedders> Man, ElementTree's handling of namespaces sucks
  78. # [05:03] <roc> <canvas> is spreading. IE might have to implement it
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  80. # [05:05] <Hixie> roc: i loved their announcement, too. something along the lines of "pretty graphs, except in IE".
  81. # [05:06] <roc> apparently IE8 standards-mode busts VML, so some of the <canvas> workarounds no longer work
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  86. # [05:20] <gsnedders> Man
  87. # [05:20] <gsnedders> (Man, I'm saying man too much)
  88. # [05:20] <gsnedders> The RFC index doesn't actually give any reference about _where_ to get the RFC.
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  103. # [06:47] <gsnedders> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-document-getelementsbyclassname — what's a class?
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  106. # [07:03] <Hixie> gsnedders: how do you mean?
  107. # [07:04] <gsnedders> Hixie: "that have all the classes specified in that argument, having obtained the classes by splitting a string on spaces."
  108. # [07:04] <gsnedders> Hixie: But splitting what?
  109. # [07:04] <gsnedders> Hixie: I assume all @class on HTML elements
  110. # [07:04] <Hixie> the argument
  111. # [07:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: "that have all the classes"
  112. # [07:05] <Hixie> yes?
  113. # [07:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: How does an element have a class?
  114. # [07:05] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#classes
  115. # [07:06] * gsnedders realizes he missed the paragraph two paragraphs below
  116. # [07:06] * gsnedders is dumb, again
  117. # [07:07] <gsnedders> Ignore feedback from me at 5am in the morning in the future :)
  118. # [07:07] <Hixie> k :-)
  119. # [07:09] * gsnedders will live to regret that statement, probably
  120. # [07:10] <gsnedders> Yay! I have a refer file which has all RFCs in it.
  121. # [07:11] <gsnedders> There are some rather obvious bugs, though
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  156. # [09:51] <annevk5> jruderman, you just left but in case you read the logs I suppose I can figure out if we want to share that today
  157. # [09:52] <annevk5> weinig, I am here now, haven't checked my e-mail yet though in case you e-mailed your question
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  162. # [10:05] * Hixie replies to an mpt e-mail and a jgraham e-mail from nov 2004
  163. # [10:05] * hsivonen finishes editing the normalization wiki page
  164. # [10:05] * mpt is glad he's still alive to read the reply :-)
  165. # [10:05] <annevk5> Hixie, there is no base URL concept in HTML5 that I can use here?
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  167. # [10:06] <Hixie> annevk5: as far as i can tell, the behavior you are describing is not one that anything in html5 has
  168. # [10:06] <annevk5> I wonder how to make it work in such a way that it will also work in Web Workers
  169. # [10:07] <annevk5> I suppose I have to provide a hook for Web Workers
  170. # [10:09] <ap> hsivonen: what's the URL for the normalization wiki page? I don't see it mentioned in the logs
  171. # [10:09] <hsivonen> ap: http://esw.w3.org/topic/I18N/CanonicalNormalization
  172. # [10:09] <ap> thx
  173. # [10:10] <Hixie> annevk5: yeah just add a hook that says "if the XMLHttpRequest object's constructor is not on a Window object, then the /XMLHttpRequest base URI/ is defined by another specification." or some such
  174. # [10:11] <annevk5> the problem is that currently it is wrong
  175. # [10:11] <annevk5> because currently it only has a base URL once constructed
  176. # [10:11] <annevk5> it needs to change so that the interface object has an associated base URL
  177. # [10:14] <annevk5> e.g. in case the interface object gets copied across Windows before any object creation takes place
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  180. # [10:14] <jgraham> Interesting, it turns out that what I said in 2004 isn't entirely stupid
  181. # [10:15] <annevk5> "H:TML" is confusing
  182. # [10:16] <hsivonen> annevk5: the full title is long and I want to avoid expressions like "Mike's document" and "Hixie's document"
  183. # [10:17] <Hixie> i don't really think "The Markup Language" is the least ambiguous of names, but I'm not really sure what a better name would be
  184. # [10:18] <annevk5> it looks like a qname
  185. # [10:18] <hsivonen> annevk5: your imagination has been dirtied by XML!
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  187. # [10:33] <Hixie> annevk5: should cssom be in charge of firing onresize and onscroll events?
  188. # [10:35] <annevk5> CSSOM View maybe, yeah
  189. # [10:35] <annevk5> though maybe not for this revision of that document
  190. # [10:35] <Hixie> is there an ETA on the revision that would include this?
  191. # [10:35] <Hixie> (for planning purposes)
  192. # [10:37] <annevk5> 2015?
  193. # [10:38] <annevk5> I don't really know, I want to work out XHR and CORS
  194. # [10:38] <annevk5> I suppose alternatively it could be included and it would just sit longer in WD status
  195. # [10:38] <annevk5> I don't really mind WD status, but some people do
  196. # [10:39] <Hixie> i can work with 2015, sure
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  198. # [10:40] <Hixie> (you don't have a timetable for when things like xhr will be done?)
  199. # [10:40] <annevk5> I did, but then HTML5 raised the bar
  200. # [10:41] <Hixie> heh
  201. # [10:41] <Hixie> well html5's timetable has been pretty well established for several years now, you should have expected changes :-)
  202. # [10:41] <annevk5> also, implementors are not really helping that much (apart from when ap was still reviewing) so it's hard to figure out how much is still to be done
  203. # [10:42] <Hixie> ah
  204. # [10:42] <Hixie> you'll get better at estimating it with more experience i expect
  205. # [10:42] <Hixie> took me years to get an idea of how long it would take
  206. # [10:42] <annevk5> but now it is mainly figuring out how to deal with the base URL issue and event loops for XHR 1
  207. # [10:42] <annevk5> for XHR 2 it depends on when the File Upload stuff gets done
  208. # [10:43] <Hixie> yeah i have a bunch of stuff waiting on file upload
  209. # [10:44] <Hixie> i think it's ridiculous that after years of people complaining about how html5 wasn't going to be ready for them in time, html5 is now blocking on other specs
  210. # [10:44] <annevk5> CORS is done, apart from non-normative details and server requirements and potential feedback from implementors
  211. # [10:44] <Hixie> cool
  212. # [10:45] <hsivonen> annevk5: so CORS will use Origin regardless of how the more general ID goes?
  213. # [10:45] <annevk5> hsivonen, there are three known implementations of CORS that use Origin and will ship soonish
  214. # [10:45] <annevk5> hsivonen, of which one at least has indicated it cannot be possibly changed
  215. # [10:45] <hsivonen> annevk5: ok.
  216. # [10:45] <annevk5> hsivonen, not counting Chrome here
  217. # [10:46] <annevk5> hsivonen, so I guess that although I appreciate the discussion on the HTTP WG mailing list, it's pretty much a done deal
  218. # [10:48] <Hixie> someone should tell the http group
  219. # [10:48] <Hixie> (not it!)
  220. # [10:48] <annevk5> "not it!"?
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  223. # [10:49] <annevk5> I'm not sure they care much for reality, but I suppose I can give it try if the discussion surfaces again
  224. # [10:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: as in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT8uiT_rZ5k ?
  225. # [10:51] <Hixie> "not it" is an idiomatic english expression meaning "i decline to volunteer for the responsibility that has most recently been put on the table"
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  227. # [10:51] <annevk5> heh
  228. # [10:51] <annevk5> I love Borat
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  233. # [10:56] <annevk5> time to go to work o_O
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  240. # [11:31] <annevk5> so when describing use cases for CORS, would it be wrong to mention XMLHttpRequest, <eventsource>, @font-face, <?xml-stylesheet?>, XBL, etc. explicitly?
  241. # [11:32] <Hixie> no?
  242. # [11:32] <Hixie> why would it?
  243. # [11:32] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  244. # [11:33] <annevk5> ta, not sure
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  251. # [11:57] <Hixie> zcorpan: yt?
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  253. # [11:58] <Hixie> zcorpan: have you tested http://simon.html5.org/specs/html-color-attributes against IE by giving it random strings and checking the computed values?
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  268. # [13:07] <Hixie> how can we work out the computer value of css properties in IE8?
  269. # [13:08] <Hixie> oh currentStyle
  270. # [13:08] <Hixie> not runtimeStyle
  271. # [13:09] * jmb^ is now known as jmb
  272. # [13:11] <annevk5> the DreamHost thingie was "Pretty graphs unless $browser eq 'IE'."
  273. # [13:11] <Hixie> hm, zcorpan's algorithm doesn't seem to be right
  274. # [13:12] <Hixie> fails in about 13% of cases
  275. # [13:12] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/color-attributes/001.html
  276. # [13:12] <annevk5> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/color-attributes/ has tests
  277. # [13:12] <Hixie> (12% rather)
  278. # [13:15] <annevk5> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/color-attributes/the-algorithm/ does seem to use random strings
  279. # [13:19] <zcorpan> Hixie: it doesn't match ie when the input is in the format "#rgb"
  280. # [13:19] <Hixie> hm
  281. # [13:19] * Hixie pokes around
  282. # [13:19] <zcorpan> Hixie: we changed it to support pages that were written against ie pocket/firefox/safari
  283. # [13:24] <Hixie> no i get fails for other things too
  284. # [13:24] <Hixie> e.g. #3
  285. # [13:27] * Hixie gets more debug output
  286. # [13:28] <zcorpan> -> #030000 ?
  287. # [13:28] <Hixie> hm actually the problem is the way i'm reading the colors
  288. # [13:29] <zcorpan> oh yeah, currentStyle is weird in ie
  289. # [13:29] <Hixie> it's saying #3 => #300 instead of #030000
  290. # [13:29] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-195-131.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  291. # [13:29] <Hixie> i wonder how to get around that
  292. # [13:30] <zcorpan> use <body bgcolor> and document.bgColor
  293. # [13:30] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  294. # [13:30] <Hixie> they serialise differently?
  295. # [13:30] <zcorpan> yes
  296. # [13:30] <Hixie> ok that's just fucked up
  297. # [13:31] <annevk5> though please spec document.bgColor as just reflecting the string value
  298. # [13:31] <Hixie> send feedback
  299. # [13:31] <zcorpan> annevk5: document.bgColor should take css into account
  300. # [13:31] <Hixie> (if it isn't already done)
  301. # [13:31] <annevk5> zcorpan, for compat with sites?
  302. # [13:31] <zcorpan> annevk5: think so but not sure
  303. # [13:32] <annevk5> I believe Opera doesn't do it
  304. # [13:33] <zcorpan> oh right we don't
  305. # [13:33] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  306. # [13:33] <zcorpan> nor do webkit and firefox
  307. # [13:33] <zcorpan> so i guess it's ok
  308. # [13:37] <Hixie> wtf
  309. # [13:37] <Hixie> i think i should do this tomorrow when i'm awake
  310. # [13:37] <Hixie> IE should have a label on the side
  311. # [13:37] <Hixie> "do not operate while drowsy"
  312. # [13:38] <annevk5> zcorpan, much rather have them as simply reflecting the DOMString than some interaction with the CSSOM
  313. # [13:40] <Hixie> zcorpan: http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/color-attributes/001.html shows some failures i don't think you are expecting
  314. # [13:40] <Hixie> nn
  315. # [13:40] <zcorpan> nn
  316. # [13:40] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  317. # [13:42] * zcorpan also has http://simon.html5.org/test/html/rendering/color-attributes/
  318. # [13:48] <hsivonen> I should probably file the hyphenation issue away as an example of a case of claims of internationalization needs gone too far, but we are able to recognize it because German and Swedish are more familiar to us.
  319. # [13:49] <hsivonen> which leaves the question of how many claims about the needs of unfamiliar (to us) languages have gone way beyond what's needed into the what might be nice to have department
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  323. # [14:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: Correctly distinguishing between "nice to have" and "needed" is a generally difficult problem (and, I guess, people who are good at it, or even just get it right once, can become rather rich and/or famous)
  324. # [14:01] <jgraham> e.g. AIUI, HTML has rather a lot less features than earlier hypertext systems but it turns out they were not needed
  325. # [14:02] <hsivonen> Aside: I can't find a single non-normalizing text input method among the ones that ship with Leopard
  326. # [14:02] <hsivonen> although I'm not quite sure about Tibetan
  327. # [14:02] <jgraham> So it's not really a problem specific to i18n
  328. # [14:03] <hsivonen> jgraham: no, but with i18n it is too easy for people to portray they pet feature requests as something that others are under a moral imperative to implement to remove discrimination
  329. # [14:03] <hsivonen> s/they/their/
  330. # [14:03] <jgraham> hsivonen: Indeed.
  331. # [14:04] <hsivonen> I become *very* skeptical about i18n "needs" when I learned what pet features of a handful of linguistics were paraded as needs of Finnish orthography in international committees
  332. # [14:07] <annevk5> to be honest, I don't think it's worth changing anything here; doing it at the equality checking level seems way to complex and doing it during parsing will most likely break scripts
  333. # [14:08] <annevk5> and doing it for a handful CSS identifiers as fantasai suggested in some issue she filed is also way too much complexity for very little gain
  334. # [14:09] <hsivonen> annevk5: if there indeed are still non-normalizing Vietnamese input methods on Windows, I do think it would be worthwhile to change them to behave like the OS X Vietnamese input method
  335. # [14:10] <jgraham> Having not read everything about the selectors thing, it seems like normalizing everything in the parser could have worked if that design was chosen from the start but now the right solution is probably to do nothing
  336. # [14:11] <hsivonen> fwiw, normalizing in the encoding decoder is the sane thing to do in the case of converting Windows-1258 to UTF-*
  337. # [14:11] <annevk5> jgraham, that would have averse affect if you had both NFD and NFC XML documents (which is possible)
  338. # [14:11] <annevk5> s/had/have/
  339. # [14:11] <zcorpan> hmm i get ie8 to hang by just doing a seach-in-page
  340. # [14:11] <annevk5> s/affect/effects/
  341. # [14:11] <annevk5> wow
  342. # [14:12] <jgraham> annevk5: What would have adverse effects?
  343. # [14:13] * Philip` likes it when he can dump a bunch of bytes into a system and get pretty much the same bytes out again, and gets confused and unhappy when there's all sorts of fancy transformations going on in the middle
  344. # [14:13] <annevk5> normalizing the CSS document to NFC would cause it to no longer function with an NFD XML document
  345. # [14:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: I doubt that people who use XML as a surrogate for ASN.1 would like running normalization at all in their XML processors
  346. # [14:14] <annevk5> and congrats for finding more typos :)
  347. # [14:15] * zcorpan fails to find failures in http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/color-attributes/001.html that he wasn't expecting
  348. # [14:16] <jgraham> annevk5: You would have to normalise everything, HTML, CSS, XML, (ECMAScript should already be normalised although there are ways to break that)
  349. # [14:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: do actual ECMAScript implementations normalize e.g. function names upon compilation?
  350. # [14:18] <jgraham> hsivonen: It is unclear to me what the ASN.1 problem is, how bad the problem is, and whether it's worse than the current problem
  351. # [14:18] <jgraham> hsivonen: Dunno. Will test
  352. # [14:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: the ASN.1 problem is using XML as a message format in distributed computing and wanting marshalling and unmarshalling to be *fast*
  353. # [14:19] <hsivonen> in which case it's probably a bad idea to use XML at all, but...
  354. # [14:22] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  355. # [14:23] <annevk5> jgraham, ECMAScript should not be normalized
  356. # [14:23] <annevk5> jgraham, there's an authoring requirement that ECMAScript is written in NFC, but that's all there is to it
  357. # [14:23] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  358. # [14:23] <annevk5> jgraham, I'd be fine with adding such an authoring requirement to CSS, HTML, and XML if that solves it for i18n
  359. # [14:24] <jgraham> annevk5: Hmm, I guess you can read the spec that way
  360. # [14:24] <jgraham> I had read it as "the text should be normalized to NFC when it is converted to UTF-16"
  361. # [14:24] <jgraham> but there's not much to support my reading
  362. # [14:25] <jgraham> Mind you there's not much I can see to support the idea that non-UTF-16 text can be used as source at all
  363. # [14:25] <annevk5> "Conforming ECMAScript implementations are not required to perform any normalisation of text, or behave as though they were performing normalisation of text, themselves."
  364. # [14:26] <annevk5> and "The text is expected to have been normalised to Unicode Normalised Form C"
  365. # [14:27] <annevk5> at best it's optional (which is exactly "best", it's bad)
  366. # [14:27] <jgraham> annevk5: In my mind I was making a distinction between "the ecmascript implementation" and "the rest of the web browser" where "the ecmascript engine" does nothing to text and "the rest of the web browser" converts it to UTF-16 NFC
  367. # [14:27] <annevk5> not exactly*
  368. # [14:28] <annevk5> jgraham, I see
  369. # [14:31] <jgraham> Anyway it seems that real browsers do not match my interpretation
  370. # [14:32] <jgraham> So add ECMAScript to my previous list
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  375. # [15:03] <hsivonen> https://build.mozilla.org/tryserver-builds/2009-02-09_03:22-hsivonen@iki.fi-try-d7edc484a05/ might be of interest to those who have asked about HTML5 Gecko builds
  376. # [15:03] <hsivonen> (layout notification perf still sucks, though)
  377. # [15:04] <ap> hsivonen: one way to get non-NFC text on Mac OS X is to paste a file name from Finder into editable content in browser
  378. # [15:05] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  379. # [15:05] <ap> hsivonen: I want to add normalization to most pasting/dragging code paths in WebKit, but there will still be edge cases, not to mention other browser engines
  380. # [15:08] <hsivonen> ap: the exposure of HFS+ internal representation in various places in quite annoying
  381. # [15:08] <hsivonen> ap: including byte-oriented file system APIs
  382. # [15:26] <takkaria> hsivonen: oo, an OS X build
  383. # [15:30] <jgraham> hsivonen: Still crashes on startup for me :(
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  387. # [15:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: crashes on startup for me too (on win32)
  388. # [15:38] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-73-122.dynamic.amis.net)
  389. # [15:40] <zcorpan> hsivonen: also with a fresh profile
  390. # [15:42] <annevk5> wfm, cool
  391. # [15:43] <annevk5> Ubuntu FTW!
  392. # [15:48] * jgraham also had Ubuntu
  393. # [15:56] <annevk5> did you unzip it in some random dir and then just run it from there without any other Firefox installation running?
  394. # [15:56] <annevk5> (and with that random dir being empty)
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  399. # [16:08] <jgraham> annevk5: Yes
  400. # [16:12] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  401. # [16:12] <annevk5> weird
  402. # [16:12] <Philip`> jgraham: Are you running it in a way that makes it attempt to open the profile manager on startup?
  403. # [16:12] <Philip`> (I think I had problems with that when I tried it ages ago)
  404. # [16:13] <jgraham> Philip`: Oh yeah, I had forgotten that
  405. # [16:13] <jgraham> What is the magic option?
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  407. # [16:14] <Philip`> jgraham: "-p profilename" or something, maybe?
  408. # [16:16] <jgraham> Ah, that kindof works
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  411. # [16:19] <jgraham> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cb%3E%3Ci%3E%3Cp%3Efoo%3C%2Fb%3E%3C%2Fi%3E seems to have broken rendering
  412. # [16:20] * Joins: starjive (i=beos@213-66-216-93-no30.tbcn.telia.com)
  413. # [16:31] <weinig> annevk5: hey, I was curious what the reasoning behind the table with a caption exception in the getClientRects algorithm was
  414. # [16:33] <annevk5> legacy iirc
  415. # [16:33] <annevk5> these APIs originate with IE
  416. # [16:34] <annevk5> roc would be the best person to ask :)
  417. # [16:35] <annevk5> jgraham, hmm yeah
  418. # [16:36] <annevk5> hsivonen, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cb%3E%3Cp%3Efoo%3C%2Fb%3E is a more minimal version of jgraham's bug
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  421. # [16:43] <zcorpan> hmm doing firefox.exe -p default worked for me :)
  422. # [16:47] * weinig annevk5: nods
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  436. # [17:17] <annevk5> in the GNOME Terminal, is there a "clear" that removes all text so that when I scroll up after an operation I hit the place where I invoked "clear" rather than going back in history
  437. # [17:18] <jgraham> annevk5: What do you mean "go back in history"? Are you scrolling through your input history or just scrolling up the screen?
  438. # [17:18] <jgraham> s/screen/output/
  439. # [17:19] <Philip`> annevk5: Do you mean something like the "clear" command?
  440. # [17:20] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-73-122.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  441. # [17:20] <annevk5> Philip`, yes
  442. # [17:20] <annevk5> jgraham, scrolling up the output
  443. # [17:21] <Philip`> annevk5: I suggest using the "clear" command, then
  444. # [17:21] <jgraham> Philip`: But clear (in gnome-terminal at least) just places the existing output further up in the scroll history, it doesn't remove it
  445. # [17:21] <jgraham> If that makes sense
  446. # [17:21] <annevk5> Philip`, I know about clear, it doesn't work as I want
  447. # [17:22] * jgraham doesn't really know how to refer to the total amount of output that one can scroll over
  448. # [17:22] * jgraham wonders if there is an easy way to make a suicidal subprocess in Python
  449. # [17:23] <takkaria> jgraham: "buffer", I believe
  450. # [17:23] <jgraham> Specifically I want something that will automatically kill itself after some timeout if it didn't already die but without having to do proc.wait()
  451. # [17:24] <jgraham> (which means that killableprocess.py isn't itself quite enough afaict)
  452. # [17:24] <jgraham> takkaria: Ah, yes, that would be it
  453. # [17:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: I cherry-picked a patch that was supposed to address one startup crash on intrepid
  454. # [17:26] <jgraham> annevk5: You can do Terminal - Reset and Clear in the menu, if that helps
  455. # [17:26] <hsivonen> It runs for me on Windows 7
  456. # [17:26] <jgraham> hsivonen: It worked after I didn't go through the profile manager
  457. # [17:26] <jgraham> the codepath startup -> profile manager -> running instance seems to be the broken one
  458. # [17:27] <hsivonen> apparently the crash at startup also happens with fresh profile on the Mozilla servers. I wonder why it works for me.
  459. # [17:27] <annevk5> jgraham, "reset" is a command
  460. # [17:27] <annevk5> thanks
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  462. # [17:28] <annevk5> it keeps input history and resets output
  463. # [17:28] <annevk5> neato
  464. # [17:29] <hsivonen> jgraham, annevk5: the foofoo case looks like the DOM and the CSS render tree get out of sync. I have no idea why. I'll investigate. thanks
  465. # [17:29] <Philip`> annevk5: "reset" doesn't seem to clear the scrollback history, at least in Konsole
  466. # [17:29] <Philip`> so it's not really any different to "clear"
  467. # [17:29] <annevk5> Philip`, it's different in GNOME Terminal
  468. # [17:30] <Philip`> (except that reset is more helpful if e.g. you've catted a binary file and it's messed up all the terminal output state)
  469. # [17:30] * annevk5 actually tested it
  470. # [17:31] <Philip`> annevk5: I'm not doubting you, just wondering if it's a terminal-dependent thing, which apparently it is, so that's okay now :-)
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  478. # [17:53] <hsivonen> doesn't crash for me on Windows XP, either
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  480. # [17:58] <gsnedders> Man, this really isn't fun :\
  481. # [17:59] <gsnedders> <http://www.w3.org/2002/01/tr-automation/tr.rdf> is crazy
  482. # [18:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: Doesn't RDF make consuming arbitary data foolproof, even if you have no idea what the semantics of the data are?
  483. # [18:01] <gsnedders> I looked at one RDF lib for Python, and pretty much concluded, "WTF is this on about?"
  484. # [18:01] <gsnedders> I don't want a fucking graph. I want the data in that file.
  485. # [18:02] <hsivonen> gsnedders: the data is a graph. there's no tree. these aren't the droids you are looking for.
  486. # [18:02] <Philip`> It looks like a very tree-shaped graph
  487. # [18:02] <gsnedders> Touché Philip`.
  488. # [18:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: Curiously I did exactly the same thing with exactly that file last time you were working on this :)
  489. # [18:03] <Dashiva> They hide the non-tree links to fool you
  490. # [18:03] <annevk5> it looks suitable for line by line processing :)
  491. # [18:03] <Philip`> gsnedders: Can't you just use regular expressions?
  492. # [18:03] <gsnedders> Philip`: Hey, the XML parsing isn't the issue.
  493. # [18:03] <gsnedders> What's in <FirstEdition> seems more or less random
  494. # [18:04] <jgraham> Although I think I didn't mind the graphiness so much.
  495. # [18:04] <hsivonen> gsnedders: XML-data is self-describing
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  497. # [18:05] <gsnedders> What the… XML went from /REC-xml to /xml/
  498. # [18:05] <gsnedders> so doc:version-of doesn't even work
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  500. # [18:05] <hsivonen> gsnedders: does it work if you reference URIs and follow redirects?
  501. # [18:06] <jgraham> I think I got hung up on the fact that rdflib seemed to want me to learn sparql just to access any data
  502. # [18:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: Me too
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  504. # [18:07] <gsnedders> hsivonen: It doesn't actually redirect, it just treats them as identical
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  506. # [18:13] <gsnedders> Also, if I just want to get what the current undated TR is, using doc:versionOf won't always work because of PERs
  507. # [18:16] <annevk5> hsivonen, seems you ended up in a wiki edit war :/
  508. # [18:16] <hsivonen> annevk5: yeah
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  529. # [19:34] <yecril71> The preferred image resolution can go as media option in Content-Type.
  530. # [19:34] <yecril71> (i.e. in Accept)
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  615. # [20:30] <gsnedders> heh
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  705. # [22:09] <hober> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Feb/0040.html
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  707. # [22:17] <Philip`> Hmm, Google says to use 301 redirects if you're moving your site, but what are you meant to do if you can't set up 301 redirects?
  708. # [22:18] <Philip`> (All I can do is upload static HTML files)
  709. # [22:18] <Lachy> Philip`, which hosting service are you using that only allows static HTML?
  710. # [22:19] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64)
  711. # [22:19] <Lachy> are you sure you can't upload a .htaccess file or some PHP or python scripts, or something?
  712. # [22:19] <gsnedders> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ — That needs a validating parser :(
  713. # [22:21] <Philip`> Lachy: My ISP's one, which hasn't really changed since at least 1996, except for increasing the disk quota to 20MB
  714. # [22:22] * dimich|away is now known as dimich
  715. # [22:22] <Philip`> Lachy: Scripting is limited to a choice of 4 CGI scripts (count, imagemap, mailform, testform)
  716. # [22:23] <Lachy> have you actually tried using a .htaccess file? What happens?
  717. # [22:23] <Philip`> Lachy: I have tried it; nothing happens
  718. # [22:23] <Lachy> ok
  719. # [22:24] <Philip`> (Seemingly the server is running thttpd)
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  736. # [23:33] <Hixie> zcorpan left last night after saying he didn't find any of the failures unexpected
  737. # [23:33] <Hixie> but he didn't say why!
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  740. # Session Close: Wed Feb 11 00:00:00 2009

The end :)