/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 11 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:13] <Hixie> hm, looks like it was a bug in my escaping code
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  11. # [01:17] <Dashiva> That sounds more like a place
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  31. # [03:45] * Hixie adds a new feature to the live dom viewer
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  38. # [04:36] <Hixie> ok i guess next up is html5/selectors interaction
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  172. # [06:54] <Hixie> zcorpan: IE supports 'transparent'?!
  173. # [06:56] <zcorpan> Hixie: yep
  174. # [06:56] <Hixie> wow
  175. # [06:56] <Hixie> i put your mail into my pile, i'll get to it probably later this month or next month, but i haven't forgotten it
  176. # [06:56] <Hixie> i'm about to start writing the section that deals with selectors
  177. # [06:56] <Hixie> i wonder where to put it
  178. # [06:57] <zcorpan> put it in a new section before rendering?
  179. # [06:58] <Hixie> that's what i was thinking, but it seems kinda weird to have such a small section be at such a high level
  180. # [06:58] <Hixie> i'm thinking a subsection at the end of 4 The elements of HTML
  181. # [06:59] <zcorpan> might be good, that'll probably get more attention by authors, too
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  188. # [07:38] <zcorpan> Hixie: "hr[align=left] { margin-left: 0; margin-right: auto; }" - why margin-left: 0?
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  190. # [07:44] <Hixie> zcorpan: consistency with the center case
  191. # [07:44] <Hixie> doesn't really matter, 0 is the default anyway
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  193. # [07:47] <zcorpan> it would override user styles
  194. # [07:48] <Hixie> oh, good point, that's another reason
  195. # [07:49] <zcorpan> why would you want to override user styles?
  196. # [07:49] <Hixie> author rules override user rules
  197. # [07:49] <Hixie> that's how css works
  198. # [07:49] <Hixie> if the author says align=left, then you align left
  199. # [07:50] <Hixie> if we didn't say margin-left: 0, you might end up centering
  200. # [07:51] <zcorpan> ok
  201. # [07:54] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  202. # [07:55] <zcorpan> Hixie: the spec doesn't say what to do when parsing a legacy color returns an error (for e.g. <hr color>)
  203. # [07:55] <Hixie> bummer. can you drop me a mail or file a bug?
  204. # [07:55] <zcorpan> sure
  205. # [07:55] <Hixie> thanks
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  210. # [08:07] <hsivonen> Sigh. alt thread rides again.
  211. # [08:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: there's still "body { color: black; background: white; }"
  212. # [08:12] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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  219. # [08:31] <Hixie> (oops, i forgot to checkin the last set of edits and my next checkin will be a mixed bag of stuff)
  220. # [08:32] <Hixie> zcorpan: that's right, no?
  221. # [08:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: my bad, sorry
  222. # [08:32] <Hixie> zcorpan: btw use the "save" link for future live dom viewer links
  223. # [08:34] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@c-98-203-230-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  224. # [08:34] <zcorpan> Hixie: no. consider this author rule: html { color:green; background:yellow }
  225. # [08:34] <Hixie> hm, i guess i'll have to define them as inital values then
  226. # [08:34] <Hixie> if you remind me in ten minutes i'll do it then
  227. # [08:35] * Quits: dave_levin_ (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  228. # [08:35] <zcorpan> if you remind me to remind you in ten minutes then i'll remind you :)
  229. # [08:35] <Hixie> :-)
  230. # [08:38] <Hixie> ok
  231. # [08:38] <Hixie> what was it again? :-)
  232. # [08:38] <Hixie> oh yes. colors.
  233. # [08:39] <Hixie> Ok, done that.
  234. # [08:42] * Joins: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
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  236. # [08:48] <zcorpan> Hixie: maybe an element with a tabindex attribute should also match :active?
  237. # [08:48] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  238. # [08:48] <Hixie> it can't really be activated?
  239. # [08:48] <Hixie> i wasn't sure what to do
  240. # [08:49] <zcorpan> you usually put elements in the tab order because they can be activated (with js)
  241. # [08:50] <Hixie> i guess
  242. # [08:55] <zcorpan> Hixie: typo:
  243. # [08:55] <zcorpan> + <dt><dfn> title="selector-read-write"><code>:read-write</code></dfn></dt>
  244. # [08:55] <Hixie> thx
  245. # [08:56] <zcorpan> hsivonen: v.nu doesn't catch the above mistake :)
  246. # [08:57] <hsivonen> what's the typo?
  247. # [08:57] <hsivonen> ooh
  248. # [08:58] <hsivonen> blame Hixie and SGML :-)
  249. # [08:58] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  250. # [08:58] <zcorpan> might be useful to look at pages that have > in data to see how often it is a mistake
  251. # [08:59] <zcorpan> (most people think it has to be escaped as &gt;)
  252. # [09:00] <Hixie> html5 has > unescaped in a huge number of cases
  253. # [09:02] * Parts: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
  254. # [09:05] <hsivonen> ap: is it within your power to make the Finder team normalize to NFC when they *export* text to clipboard?
  255. # [09:06] <ap> hsivonen: the most effective way to proceed would be for you to file a bug at http://bugreport.apple.com, and for me to track comments on it
  256. # [09:06] <hsivonen> ap: ok
  257. # [09:07] <hsivonen> ap: upon login attempt: "An error has occurred. Please report the error to Apple Inc. by emailing the error detail to devbugs@apple.com."
  258. # [09:07] <hsivonen> (no error detail)
  259. # [09:08] * hsivonen mails devbugs
  260. # [09:08] <ap> hsivonen: weird. that happened for me a few years ago, and devbugs@apple.com did help
  261. # [09:10] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Remote closed the connection)
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  263. # [09:11] * hsivonen tries to remember to file a bug against erroneous glyph assignment in Apple Symbols, too
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  272. # [10:07] <zcorpan> annevk5: xhtml compat is nice! don't kill it! :)
  273. # [10:07] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  274. # [10:09] <hsivonen> what's annevk5 killing?
  275. # [10:09] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-014.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk) ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  276. # [10:10] <Hixie> nothing to see there
  277. # [10:10] <Hixie> pay no attention to anne
  278. # [10:10] <Hixie> :-P
  279. # [10:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: table[frames=void] > tr > td
  280. # [10:11] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ah.
  281. # [10:12] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@122.160.12.230)
  282. # [10:13] <annevk5> *innocent*
  283. # [10:17] * Quits: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-86.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  284. # [10:19] <Lachy> Hixie, re http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0328.html - where in the spec does it say that input type=hidden can't be disabled?
  285. # [10:19] <Hixie> #selector-enabled
  286. # [10:19] <Hixie> oh wait
  287. # [10:19] <Hixie> misread your question
  288. # [10:20] <Hixie> hm, i guess disabled does apply
  289. # [10:20] <Hixie> i'll fix :disabled
  290. # [10:21] <Lachy> ok, so the intention is still that neither :enabled or :disabled match hidden inputs?
  291. # [10:21] * Joins: fishd (n=Darin@nat/google/x-ef22403e914d62b6)
  292. # [10:21] <Hixie> yeah
  293. # [10:21] <Lachy> OK, I will go reopen our bug on the issue.
  294. # [10:24] <annevk5> cc me in case I am not
  295. # [10:25] <annevk5> it seems we also need to change our implementation of :indeterminate
  296. # [10:25] <Hixie> oh?
  297. # [10:25] <annevk5> the new rules make that Selector far less expensive I think
  298. # [10:26] <annevk5> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#relation ":indeterminate Matches radio form control elements when none of the radio buttons in their group are checked."
  299. # [10:26] <annevk5> I'm happy with not adding that back in for what it's worth
  300. # [10:28] <Hixie> ah
  301. # [10:28] <Hixie> yeah i just ignored wf2 when writing this new text
  302. # [10:28] <Hixie> didn't even look at the old text :-)
  303. # [10:28] <annevk5> :read-write and :read-only also changed
  304. # [10:29] <Hixie> yeah that was in response to feedback
  305. # [10:29] <Hixie> see the list
  306. # [10:29] <annevk5> is it really useful to have them apply to all elements and have them be influenced by disabled and such?
  307. # [10:29] <annevk5> k
  308. # [10:29] <Hixie> if you want it changed, change css3ui
  309. # [10:29] <Hixie> i'm just following the spec
  310. # [10:29] <Hixie> i agree the spec is dumb
  311. # [10:30] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@c-76-102-160-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  312. # [10:31] <annevk5> Hixie, grmbl
  313. # [10:31] <Hixie> indeed
  314. # [10:31] <annevk5> Hixie, :active also applies to disabled <input> controls at this point and only to <button> controls that are not disabled
  315. # [10:32] <Hixie> k, hold on
  316. # [10:33] <annevk5> just so that it's considered, :enabled should still apply to <link href> with .disabled set to true, right?
  317. # [10:33] <hsivonen> Is there a URI for a collection of Philip`'s ill-formedness accomplishments?
  318. # [10:34] <Hixie> annevk5: yes.
  319. # [10:34] <Hixie> annevk5: i was considering making :link/:enabled/etc only apply to <link> when the rel="" is a hyperlink and not a resource link, though
  320. # [10:34] <Hixie> (not gonna do it)
  321. # [10:34] <Hixie> (it'd be too expensive)
  322. # [10:34] <annevk5> (agreed)
  323. # [10:34] <Hixie> (would be cool though)
  324. # [10:35] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  325. # [10:35] <annevk5> (UAs scraping a wiki to figure out whether or not :link applies? :p )
  326. # [10:35] <Lachy> Hixie, why would it be cool? What problem would it solve?
  327. # [10:35] <Hixie> cool things rarely solve actual problems :-P
  328. # [10:35] <Lachy> ok
  329. # [10:35] <Lachy> then I'm glad you're not doing it
  330. # [10:36] <Hixie> it would be cool because it would make :link match <link rel=next> and other such things, which are links, but not <link rel=stylesheet>, which isn't a link the user would care about
  331. # [10:36] <Lachy> (it's arguable whether a user would care about <link rel=next> anyway)
  332. # [10:37] <Lachy> (given that few browsers have any UI for it)
  333. # [10:37] <Hixie> HEH
  334. # [10:38] <Hixie> er
  335. # [10:38] <Hixie> heh
  336. # [10:38] <Lachy> actually, I think Opera's mysterious Fast Forward button does
  337. # [10:38] * jgraham is still recovering from the loudness of the heh
  338. # [10:39] <Hixie> d'oh
  339. # [10:39] <Philip`> hsivonen: I wouldn't call them "accomplishments" - all I did was stick some U+FFFFs into query strings :-p
  340. # [10:39] <Hixie> i have caps-lock rebound to scroll-lock on this keyboard
  341. # [10:39] <Hixie> and my scroll-lock is right next to my f12
  342. # [10:39] <Hixie> which i hit a lot when on irc
  343. # [10:39] <Hixie> so i keep hitting capslock by mistake
  344. # [10:39] <Hixie> not sure where else to put capslock though
  345. # [10:40] * hsivonen has considered getting rid of capslock entirely
  346. # [10:40] <annevk5> it seems making the background-color initial value to be white rather than transparent would break an awful lot of pages
  347. # [10:40] <annevk5> that making*
  348. # [10:40] <Lachy> Hixie, what purpose does scroll lock have? Or do you just use it because it's a useless key that does nothing
  349. # [10:40] <Philip`> hsivonen: There isn't any collection that I'm aware of; the closest thing is http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/03/09/no-fury-like-dracon-scorned#comment-11442 which lists a few examples
  350. # [10:40] <jgraham> I alays try to disable capslock, except I am lazy at the moment because the Gnome UI seems to have lost the option
  351. # [10:41] <annevk5> Hixie, I think you want something else there, e.g. saying that you expect the canvas to be white and html { color:black }
  352. # [10:41] <Hixie> Lachy: none, hence why i use it for capslock
  353. # [10:41] <hsivonen> as far as key remapping goes, I still haven't found a way to introduce an Insert key onto my keyboard for testing Orca and NVDA
  354. # [10:41] <Hixie> annevk5: valid, fixing...
  355. # [10:41] <jgraham> Although it does have a bizzare number of capslock-related options
  356. # [10:41] <annevk5> Hixie, though CSS might already say that the canvas is white somewhere
  357. # [10:41] * annevk5 forgot
  358. # [10:41] <Philip`> Hixie: You could remap capslock onto the 'hold down shift' key sequence, and then you wouldn't have to spare an extra key for it
  359. # [10:41] <zcorpan> Hixie: is it useful to have :link and :visited match anything but <a href>?
  360. # [10:42] <zcorpan> <link> and <area> are display:none anyway
  361. # [10:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: sticky shift has slightly different semantics than capslock, though
  362. # [10:42] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, fair point
  363. # [10:42] * Hixie tries to remember how to unmap keys so that his useless capslock key turns into a useless scrolllock key again
  364. # [10:43] <Hixie> oh actually it's not scroll lock
  365. # [10:43] <Hixie> it's printscr/sysreq
  366. # [10:44] <zcorpan> Hixie: i usually remove the key altogether
  367. # [10:44] <Hixie> wow, i crashed my keyboard.
  368. # [10:44] <Hixie> oh i remember why i had capslock bound to this key now
  369. # [10:45] <Hixie> it's because i'd rebound that key elsewhere, and then turned it into a macro for command-tab
  370. # [10:45] <Hixie> so now if i miss my f12 key instead of getting caps lock, i'll end up in a different app
  371. # [10:45] <Hixie> oh well
  372. # [10:46] * hsivonen has mapped two key for tab, one for each hand
  373. # [10:46] <Lachy> zcorpan, Opera matches <link href=""> and <area href=""> with :link and :visited. It may be useful with selectors API, even if its not so useful with CSS
  374. # [10:46] <zcorpan> Lachy: oh we do? can we click <link>s too?
  375. # [10:47] <annevk5> "not when using proper tools"
  376. # [10:47] <annevk5> "writing proper tools is non-trivial"
  377. # [10:47] <annevk5> -> problem
  378. # [10:47] <Lachy> zcorpan, I don't understand the question
  379. # [10:47] <hsivonen> Philip`: OK. I ended up referring to http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/03/09/no-fury-like-dracon-scorned#comment-11442 via www-archive indirection
  380. # [10:48] <zcorpan> Lachy: if you make a <link> visible and have content, does clicking it make opera follow the link?
  381. # [10:48] * jgraham successfully locates the GUI option to disable capslock
  382. # [10:48] <Lachy> I don't know
  383. # [10:49] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  384. # [10:49] <zcorpan> hsivonen: interesting, which is the other key you have mapped to tab?
  385. # [10:49] <Lachy> zcorpan, no, that doesn't work
  386. # [10:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I've mapped what used to be caps lock to tab, and I have mapped what used to be right-hand ctrl to tab
  387. # [10:50] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok
  388. # [10:51] <Hixie> i don't have a right-hand control anymore
  389. # [10:51] <Hixie> my right hand modifiers are alt, command, and shift
  390. # [10:51] <Lachy> why is there even a need to disable caps lock? It's useful on rare occasions and it's not that hard to avoid pressingit
  391. # [10:51] <Hixie> (and left hand are shift, control, and command)
  392. # [10:52] <Hixie> Lachy: no need, i just needed the key for another purpose (one-key command-tab so i don't have to stretch my hand to hit that combination)
  393. # [10:52] * Joins: pauld (n=pauld@host217-43-109-26.range217-43.btcentralplus.com)
  394. # [10:52] <jgraham> Lachy: It is the single most pointless key on the keyborad
  395. # [10:52] <Hixie> (i was getting hand strain from it)
  396. # [10:52] <Hixie> jgraham: it's high up there, but it's at least third, maybe fourth
  397. # [10:52] <jgraham> For me it causes problems far more than it solves them
  398. # [10:52] <jgraham> So it has negative value
  399. # [10:52] <jgraham> Whereas others just have no value
  400. # [10:53] <Lachy> Hixie, you said before that you had it mapped to scroll lock, and now you're saying it's Cmd+Tab?
  401. # [10:53] <Hixie> Lachy: my caps lock key is mapped to print screen (i thought it was scroll lock, but i was mistaken), and the print screen function is mapped to a macro that hits command-tab
  402. # [10:53] * jgraham wonders what Hixie has F12 doing
  403. # [10:54] <Hixie> f12 inserts a line in my irc window so i know how far i've read
  404. # [10:54] <Hixie> (and in emacs, it brings up the shell)
  405. # [10:54] <jgraham> Interesting
  406. # [10:57] <Hixie> (i also rebound the "international" key to command-tilde)
  407. # [10:59] <Lachy> what's the "international" key?
  408. # [11:01] <Hixie> it's labelled "| \ Insert", dunno what it is
  409. # [11:01] <Hixie> (i have another key with "| \" on the other side)
  410. # [11:02] <Lachy> I've never seen a key labelled like that. What keyboard layout do you have?
  411. # [11:02] <Lachy> obviously it's not a standard US layout
  412. # [11:02] <zcorpan> Hixie: the margin collapse thing is still wrong because the margins are 0 even when there's a border (and so the margins cannot collapse with each other)
  413. # [11:02] <zcorpan> Hixie: on body, th, td
  414. # [11:02] <Hixie> lachy: standard US qwerty/dvorak dual label kineses advantage
  415. # [11:02] <Hixie> kinesis
  416. # [11:04] <annevk5> Hixie, the initial value of the color property is also not expected to be black; e.g. <span style=color:green><span>this is green</span></span>
  417. # [11:05] <hsivonen> Lachy: the "international key" also appears on typical European PC keyboard hardware
  418. # [11:05] <hsivonen> i.e. there's a key there
  419. # [11:05] <Hixie> annevk5: color is inherited
  420. # [11:05] <hsivonen> but the U.S. layout makes it a duplicate of the backslash key
  421. # [11:06] <Lachy> Hixie, this one? http://www.fentek-ind.com/kinesis_dvorak.gif
  422. # [11:06] <Lachy> although I don't see any key labelled "| \ Insert"
  423. # [11:06] <hsivonen> Lachy: the international key is the one to the left of left arrow on that chart
  424. # [11:06] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah
  425. # [11:07] <Hixie> Lachy: next to ~` and <- and ->
  426. # [11:07] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think annevk5 is saying that per css, color's initial value is 'inherit', but per html5 it's instead 'black'
  427. # [11:07] <Hixie> zcorpan: anne is wrong then. no property has initial value 'inherit'
  428. # [11:07] <Lachy> oh, that's just the backslash key. Why are you calling it the "international" key?
  429. # [11:07] <Hixie> the backslash key is the one above the right shift
  430. # [11:08] <Hixie> below the question mark / forward slash key
  431. # [11:08] <Hixie> (and the question mark / forward slash key is the backslash key on the qwerty layout)
  432. # [11:09] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok, but still, the initial value of background-color is transparent
  433. # [11:09] <Hixie> wow i just had the hardest time typing qwerty, despite actually now being on a qwerty keyboard
  434. # [11:09] <Hixie> zcorpan: already fixed
  435. # [11:09] <zcorpan> ok
  436. # [11:10] <Lachy> ok, so the international key which is labelled with "| \" on the left, doesn't actually type | or \?
  437. # [11:10] <Hixie> it does on the US standard layout, but on european layouts, e.g., it would do something else
  438. # [11:10] <Hixie> depending on the layout
  439. # [11:10] <Hixie> it's basically an extra key for layouts that ned another key
  440. # [11:10] <Hixie> many US keyboards don't physically have this key
  441. # [11:10] * Parts: jwalden (n=waldo@c-76-102-160-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  442. # [11:10] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@c-76-102-160-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  443. # [11:11] <Lachy> ok, here's a standard slightly less confusing european layout http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/51/3049331182291562/www.info.apple.com/images/kbase/304933/304933_08b.gif
  444. # [11:12] <annevk5> ah you're right
  445. # [11:12] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  446. # [11:12] <annevk5> maybe we should just change the initial value to 'black'
  447. # [11:12] <annevk5> in css3-color or so
  448. # [11:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: how do I find out if a script has done "crazy modifications" without always doing thread synchronization in the AAA and without keeping crazy state in the tree?
  449. # [11:13] <jgraham> Lachy: The Apple idea of what constitutes a non_US english keyboard layout is different to anyone else's idea
  450. # [11:15] <annevk5> Hixie, a/canvas's/canvas'/ ?
  451. # [11:16] <Hixie> hsivonen: pass an assertion along to the main thread, and rewind if the assertion fails (it rarely will)
  452. # [11:16] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  453. # [11:16] <Lachy> jgraham, aside from the Cmd key, isn't it close enough?
  454. # [11:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: in that case, I'd have to keep around enough state to be able to rewind
  455. # [11:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: keeping around that state as seldom as </script> occurs is OK, keeping it for many token boundaries is less so
  456. # [11:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: that's pretty much how i feel about your alternative suggestion :-)
  457. # [11:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: you want everyone to keep this state instead of just you, to be able to do something that doesn't seem particularly useful in the first place :-)
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  459. # [11:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: I agree that it probably doesn't make sense to spec it without there being a demo implementation showing benefit
  460. # [11:20] <jgraham> Lachy: It moves a bunch of the punctuation around compared to the standard en-GB keyboard
  461. # [11:20] <Hixie> it's not like you have to keep much state to rewind anyway
  462. # [11:20] <Hixie> just the position in the input stream, and what data was inserted into the stream after the assertion (which can be done by annotating insertions with an age)
  463. # [11:21] <Hixie> just include that information with the assertion
  464. # [11:21] <Hixie> and have the main thread include it when it complains
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  468. # [11:43] <annevk5> Hixie, HTMLInputElement still does not have width and height DOM attributes
  469. # [11:48] <Hixie> fixed
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  472. # [12:02] <annevk5> so it's not legal to write <table><tr> in HTML or it is and I'm misunderstanding the writing section?
  473. # [12:08] <Lachy> annevk5, it is legal because the tbody element's start tag is optional
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  484. # [12:49] <annevk5> funny
  485. # [12:49] <annevk5> "the tools will save us" on google gives "XML.com: XML on the Web Has Failed" as top 3 result
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  488. # [12:53] <hsivonen> hah
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  492. # [13:22] <yecril71> The Scroll Lock key toggles the Scroll Lock mode.
  493. # [13:22] <yecril71> A fictional language cannot be invented; art is not an invention.
  494. # [13:23] <yecril71> And a fictional language cannot be used, except by fictional characters; once it is used, it stops being fictional.
  495. # [13:25] <yecril71> I hope non-interactive documents will be readable and have a similar organization in various browsers.
  496. # [13:25] <yecril71> (organisation = visual layout)
  497. # [13:26] <yecril71> Otherwise, HTML cannot be used for publishing and authors will have to stay with PDF.
  498. # [13:27] <yecril71> (I admit it is far from the Web Applications trend)
  499. # [13:29] * hendry wonders if there is already a tool to split up a large HTML file into seperate HTML files (with next/prev). Want to chunk an HTML book.
  500. # [13:30] * Joins: zalan (n=kvirc@dsl5400EDD3.pool.t-online.hu)
  501. # [13:30] <yecril71> Split on H2 or what?
  502. # [13:31] <hendry> yecril71: split on 1000 lines or something I was thinking
  503. # [13:31] <jgraham> hendry: Philip` just wrote a custom script for splitting the HTML5 spec
  504. # [13:31] <yecril71> 1000 lines no good, the user will be lost.
  505. # [13:32] <hendry> jgraham: ah cool, could you point me to the source? or Philip` ?
  506. # [13:32] * Quits: annevk5 (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  507. # [13:32] <hendry> yecril71: these are project Gutenberg ebooks. HTML formatting is not great. I think I am probably better off with text.
  508. # [13:33] * Joins: annevk5 (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  509. # [13:33] <hendry> yecril71: and using `split` and wrap it in some HTML.
  510. # [13:35] <jgraham> hendry: I guess I can do something like
  511. # [13:35] <yecril71> If they are in HTML, I would count top-level elements, not lines
  512. # [13:35] <jgraham> Philip`: ^
  513. # [13:35] <hsivonen> hendry: I'm curious: what kind of reading environment needs splitting? A device with 64 MB of RAM handles unsplit Gutenberg ebooks unsplit
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  518. # [13:36] <yecril71> I think, whatever the hardware is, the software should be smart enough to handle that somehow.
  519. # [13:36] <hendry> hsivonen: this HTC device running Pocket IE seems to have issues with 200K files.
  520. # [13:36] * Joins: annevk5 (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  521. # [13:36] <hsivonen> hendry: you need a better browser :-)
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  523. # [13:38] <hendry> hsivonen: i don't have too much choice as this widget runtime uses that browser control. :-) so you read ebooks eh? How do you 'bookmark' the page you're on?
  524. # [13:38] <yecril71> The bookmarks should already be there.
  525. # [13:39] <hendry> yecril71: explain?
  526. # [13:39] <hsivonen> hendry: I try to avoid quitting the browser and failing that, remembering which chapter I was in
  527. # [13:39] <yecril71> Headers have identifiers, these identifiers constitute bookmarks you can use.
  528. # [13:39] <yecril71> You can discover them by looking at the table of contents.
  529. # [13:40] <yecril71> Failing that, remember a key phrase and perform a text search.
  530. # [13:40] <Philip`> hendry: http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/browse/trunk/spec-splitter/spec-splitter.py
  531. # [13:41] <killerboy> hello
  532. # [13:41] <Philip`> hendry: but that's very much designed for HTML5, not for general-purpose use
  533. # [13:41] <Philip`> hendry: (and it splits on <h2>s and a custom list of elements IDs, not on page size)
  534. # [13:41] <yecril71> The assignment is trivial once you have the DOM.
  535. # [13:41] <jgraham> A good ebook reader would allow you to easilly resume from an arbitary point
  536. # [13:41] <hendry> Philip`: thanks and understood
  537. # [13:42] <killerboy> i'd like to know who can read localStorage. Is access domain based, and if such, what about ISP which give you names like: http://www.ispdomain.com/~mysite/
  538. # [13:43] <Philip`> I keep my place in ebooks by printing them out and using a scrap of paper as a bookmark
  539. # [13:43] <annevk5> killerboy, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/structured-client-side-storage.html#cross-directory-attacks
  540. # [13:45] <killerboy> hmm, isn't path based access possible?
  541. # [13:45] <annevk5> no
  542. # [13:45] <killerboy> and why not ;-)
  543. # [13:45] <annevk5> because you can circumvent it as the spec says
  544. # [13:45] <killerboy> how is it possible to circumvent it?
  545. # [13:45] <killerboy> some examples?
  546. # [13:46] <annevk5> e.g. inserting an <iframe> with a different path on the same domain and then running a script in that context
  547. # [13:46] <killerboy> ok
  548. # [13:46] <killerboy> but same problem with domains isn't it?
  549. # [13:47] <killerboy> why you cannot treat paths as "long domains" and use same solution as for domains
  550. # [13:47] <annevk5> no, <iframe>s have a cross-origin restriction
  551. # [13:48] <annevk5> so it's a different problem
  552. # [13:48] <annevk5> (or no problem, depending on how you look at it)
  553. # [13:48] <killerboy> so you can add this restriction and make it path based, but add some tag to iframe, to turn it off etc.
  554. # [13:49] <killerboy> or something similar
  555. # [13:49] <annevk5> I'd suggest you first get a basic understanding of the Web security model before trying to change it
  556. # [13:49] <killerboy> ok
  557. # [13:49] <annevk5> well, more than basic would probably be good :)
  558. # [13:49] <killerboy> some links?
  559. # [13:50] <annevk5> whatwg.org/html5 defines a bunch of it
  560. # [13:50] <killerboy> ok
  561. # [13:50] * Philip` doesn't remember having ever seen a decent description of what the Web security model actually is
  562. # [13:50] <killerboy> i'll come back after reading
  563. # [13:52] <jgraham> Philip`: I thought it was defined to be "duct tape and string"
  564. # [13:52] <annevk5> killerboy, cool!
  565. # [13:52] <Philip`> Mostly I've just seen that it's complex and fragile and poorly designed, and nobody is willing to make it worse in any way, and it's very hard to make it better in some ways without making it worse in other ways, so nothing much ever changes
  566. # [13:53] <annevk5> Philip`, e.g. http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/ is a pretty major change
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  568. # [13:53] <hsivonen> was Same Origin in Netscape 2.0 or was it added later?
  569. # [13:54] <Philip`> annevk5: Since the first draft was almost four years ago and it's still not a feature I can use today, I'll interpret that as evidence that changing the security model is very hard :-)
  570. # [13:56] <annevk5> indeed :)
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  573. # [14:15] <annevk5> hsivonen, per https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Same_origin_policy_for_JavaScript it was 2.0
  574. # [14:15] <hsivonen> annevk5: thanks
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  578. # [14:31] * gsnedders waves
  579. # [14:34] <takkaria> heh
  580. # [14:34] <takkaria> in my Logic lectures at the moment, we're doing axiomatic proofs
  581. # [14:35] <takkaria> I wanted to shout "Fear the axiomatic proof!"
  582. # [14:35] <killerboy> is it ##logic channel ;-) ?
  583. # [14:35] <annevk5> takkaria, lol, the moment you said axiomatic proofs I looked up http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1041735552&count=1
  584. # [14:36] <takkaria> :)
  585. # [14:37] <Philip`> How can a non-axiomatic proof be a proof at all?
  586. # [14:38] <Philip`> It's kind of hard to do anything unless you're starting with some axioms
  587. # [14:38] <takkaria> if you have a system that uses natual deduction instead of axioms you can
  588. # [14:38] <annevk5> haha: http://www.google.com/search?q=axiomatic+proof
  589. # [14:38] <killerboy> takkaria, :-)
  590. # [14:40] <killerboy> annevk5, i've read security related parts of html5
  591. # [14:40] <gsnedders> takkaria: What are you doing at uni?
  592. # [14:40] <killerboy> all it says is that it's domain based
  593. # [14:41] <Philip`> takkaria: Hmm, I appear to know nothing about that :-(
  594. # [14:41] <takkaria> gsnedders: philosophy
  595. # [14:42] <annevk5> killerboy, it's origin based
  596. # [14:42] <killerboy> annevk5, which is domain based
  597. # [14:42] <gsnedders> takkaria: That's what I thought. I guess logic has an effect on that. :)
  598. # [14:42] <killerboy> +scheme etc...
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  600. # [14:43] <killerboy> +port, +certificates, and other additional data
  601. # [14:43] <takkaria> gsnedders: formal logic is pretty much inseperable from western philosophy as of the early twentieth century
  602. # [14:43] <killerboy> takkaria, if you're interested in logic, come to ##logic, you're welcomed
  603. # [14:44] <annevk5> now combine that with the fact that it has been like that since Netscape 2.0 and try to comprehend that making it path based at this point just because localStorage does not work on shared hosting providers that use directories is not going to happen
  604. # [14:44] <takkaria> gsnedders: the most prominent western philosophers from 1880-1930 or so were also logicians and mathematitians
  605. # [14:44] <takkaria> killerboy: hm, I may do
  606. # [14:44] <killerboy> takkaria, which year of philo?
  607. # [14:45] <takkaria> killerboy: second
  608. # [14:46] <killerboy> annevk5, i understand that. you might remember this line: <killerboy> hmm, isn't path based access possible? <annevk5> no
  609. # [14:46] <killerboy> annevk5, maybe we used "possible" in different meanings
  610. # [14:47] <killerboy> takkaria, ok
  611. # [14:48] <annevk5> killerboy, ok
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  614. # [15:06] <Philip`> hsivonen: Does it count as a bug whenever nu.validator.htmlparser.tools.XML2XML produces output that is not well-formed XML?
  615. # [15:06] <Philip`> e.g. when the input is <?xml version="1.1"?><x xmlns:x=""/>
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  623. # [15:36] <killerboy> was canvas influenced by postscript?
  624. # [15:36] <annevk5> ask Apple :)
  625. # [15:37] <annevk5> but I think that might be the case
  626. # [15:38] <Philip`> killerboy: I'd guess PDF is part of the chain that led to the canvas API
  627. # [15:38] <killerboy> it's because function names are similar :-)
  628. # [15:39] <Philip`> killerboy: like maybe PS -> PDF -> Quartz -> canvas, or something, though I know very little about anything but the last of those stages, so maybe I'm totally wrong
  629. # [15:39] <killerboy> ok
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  631. # [16:00] <hsivonen> Philip`: yes, it counts as a bug. I was relying on the XML parser enforcing input XML 1.0-compliance. I guess one can't trust any third-party code.
  632. # [16:01] <annevk5> to wit, that is XML 1.0 compliant
  633. # [16:02] <hsivonen> umm. XML 1.0 plus Namespaces in XML 1.0
  634. # [16:02] <annevk5> that's not what I meant, but I'm wrong
  635. # [16:02] <annevk5> even in 5th edition xmlns:x="" is incorrect
  636. # [16:03] <Philip`> hsivonen: Does the parser ever claim to be an XML 1.0 parser?
  637. # [16:04] <hsivonen> Philip`: in my defense, my serializer meets its spec. but my choice of SAX event generator doesn't. So you win.
  638. # [16:04] <hsivonen> good question
  639. # [16:04] <Philip`> hsivonen: But your serialiser's spec seems to be "if you give it input that won't result in ill-formed output, then it will serialise to well-formed output" :-p
  640. # [16:06] <gsnedders> Yay! Now building index of RFCs from XML index in less than two seconds.
  641. # [16:06] <hsivonen> Philip`: the spec is that text content, attribute values and PI data are considered untrusted but namespace mappings, element names, attribute names and PI targets are considered trusted
  642. # [16:06] <gsnedders> (from a local copy of the XML index — doing it with urllib2 and getting the index takes around five minutes :P)
  643. # [16:06] <hsivonen> Philip`: also, namespace mappings are not required
  644. # [16:06] <hsivonen> Philip`: so in this case, a namespace mapping is fed to the serializer and the mapping is trusted
  645. # [16:08] <hsivonen> Philip`: it seems that SAXParserFactory is silent on XML version
  646. # [16:10] <hsivonen> let this be evidence that XML 1.1 is Trouble
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  648. # [16:14] <Dashiva> Who is the picture of in the latest lastweek?
  649. # [16:14] <hsivonen> Philip`: it turns out that SAX makes detecting the situation pretty annoying, too.
  650. # [16:15] <hsivonen> Dashiva: Hixie
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  652. # [16:19] <killerboy> thanks for all, bye
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  656. # [16:21] <gsnedders> Ah, without glasses.
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  660. # [16:25] <hsivonen> what does the following sentence mean? "That the world has been doing evil while processing XML as a browser format (MSIE and Mozilla being potentially the biggest actors) is not debatable anymore and justifies fully the lack of widespreadness."
  661. # [16:26] <annevk5> I have no idea; I was also wondering how we obscure prossing models in browsers
  662. # [16:26] * Philip` didn't understand it when he first read
  663. # [16:26] <gsnedders> Where is that from?
  664. # [16:27] <hsivonen> gsnedders: www-tag
  665. # [16:27] <Philip`> (nor any subsequent times I read it)
  666. # [16:28] <annevk5> s/prossing/processing/ (maybe this is how)
  667. # [16:30] <jcranmer> lemme try to understand it
  668. # [16:31] <jcranmer> a. The world has been doing evil
  669. # [16:31] <jcranmer> a.1 This evil is processing XML as a browse format
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  671. # [16:31] <jcranmer> a.2 MSIE and Mozilla are potentially the biggest actors
  672. # [16:31] <jcranmer> b. This fact is not debatable anymore
  673. # [16:32] <jcranmer> c. This fact also justifies why it has failed to become widespread
  674. # [16:32] <jcranmer> although the antecedent of the last it eludes me
  675. # [16:32] * pauld_ is now known as pauld
  676. # [16:32] <hsivonen> jcranmer: so is "the world" or "MSIE and Mozilla" doing evil?
  677. # [16:32] <annevk5> I'm guessing he meant that XML did not became widespread because browsers processed it as HTML and not as XML and the fault lies with Mozilla/MSIE
  678. # [16:33] <jcranmer> I'm guessing "the world" == browser vendors, primarily "MSIE and Mozilla"
  679. # [16:33] <hsivonen> but Mozilla does process XML as XML
  680. # [16:33] <annevk5> I'm taking several leaps here of course
  681. # [16:34] <annevk5> hsivonen, I'm guessing he wanted XHTML as text/html to be processed as XML too
  682. # [16:34] <annevk5> (if anyone really wants to know they should ask the person who wrote it, to be clear)
  683. # [16:36] <hsivonen> annevk5: I think the blame for text/html handling lies largely on the W3C itself and O'Reilly
  684. # [16:37] <annevk5> yeah, the old HTML WG decided that
  685. # [16:37] <annevk5> I'm glad they did
  686. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: why O'Reilly?
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  689. # [16:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: when Netscape/Mozilla made the decision, O'Reilly xml.com was already serving ill-formed XHTML as text/html
  690. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> ah
  691. # [16:42] <Dashiva> Which side of the draconian debate was O'Reilly on?
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  702. # [17:24] * annevk5 figures out how to read the Web IDL ECMAScript binding part on "Operations"
  703. # [17:24] * annevk5 is glad he's not writing that specification
  704. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> has anybody used Yahoo BrowserPlus much?
  705. # [17:48] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-67-180-35-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  706. # [17:49] * Philip` refrains from mentioning how even if XOM guaranteed well-formed output, it could result in DOS attacks when, say, your web site stores the visitors' IP addresses in an SQL database, and then appends the IP values as text nodes when generating a document to display to another user
  707. # [17:49] <Philip`> ...e.g. in a wiki-type situation
  708. # [17:50] <Philip`> ...and then the user tricks your system by sending an X-Forwarded-For header with invalid bytes in it, which your code treats as the user's IP address and stores in the database
  709. # [17:50] <Philip`> ...and when you try to construct a XOM tree for subsequent users, you get a fatal exception because of those invalid bytes
  710. # [17:52] <Philip`> (At least it's better than using string concatenation, where you'll probably get an XSS attack rather than a DOS attack)
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  712. # [17:53] <annevk5> haha
  713. # [17:53] * annevk5 blogged it
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  715. # [17:57] <hsivonen> what was the meeting where W3C decided to stop working on HTML? in 2000 or thereabouts
  716. # [17:57] <Philip`> annevk5: It's only a bug, it's not that exciting really :-p
  717. # [17:58] <annevk5> last XML {day} was also just a bug
  718. # [17:59] <Philip`> annevk5: That one wasn't that exciting really either :-)
  719. # [17:59] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  720. # [17:59] <annevk5> indeed, my blog is not that exciting :)
  721. # [17:59] <annevk5> just a blog after all
  722. # [18:00] * Parts: annevk5 (n=annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  723. # [18:02] <hsivonen> has MS ever acknowledged the disbanding of the IE team after IE6?
  724. # [18:02] <hsivonen> or is the official story that they were working on IE7 all along?
  725. # [18:03] <Philip`> hsivonen: Is there a sensible reason why you output &#xD; for \r in comments, instead of just dropping the character or outputting a space or something?
  726. # [18:03] <Philip`> hsivonen: (Anything is going to cause data loss, but &#xD; seems a weirder thing to pick than the alternatives)
  727. # [18:03] <hsivonen> Philip`: the reason is code reuse, and yes, you've found a bug
  728. # [18:04] <Philip`> hsivonen: (particularly since "--" is written as "- -", not "-&#xwhatever;")
  729. # [18:04] <Philip`> hsivonen: Ah, okay
  730. # [18:04] <Philip`> hsivonen: (It affects PIs too)
  731. # [18:04] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  732. # [18:06] * Joins: zcorpan___ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-203-80.bredband.comhem.se)
  733. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: it was 1998
  734. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/future/
  735. # [18:06] * Quits: svl (n=chatzill@a194-109-2-86.dmn.xs4all.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  736. # [18:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
  737. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> workshop somewhat ironically (in hindsight) titled "Shaping the Future of HTML"
  738. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> lots more history stuff at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/history
  739. # [18:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
  740. # [18:08] <hsivonen> (I'm writing the history part for my HTML5 lecture)
  741. # [18:10] <Philip`> MikeSmith: That Future thing doesn't sound much like XHTML
  742. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: please make any updates to that page if you find anything to add to it
  743. # [18:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: OK
  744. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> Philip`: maybe the right Future has not arrived yet
  745. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> or maybe that workshop actually caused an alternate universe to spring into existence -- one where everything it working just as envisioned by the participants
  746. # [18:14] <Philip`> (I suppose it sounds somewhat like XHTML2, though)
  747. # [18:15] <Philip`> Clearly the problem was that Mozilla and Google didn't participate in that workshop
  748. # [18:15] * Joins: zalan (n=kvirc@dsl5400EDD3.pool.t-online.hu)
  749. # [18:16] <Philip`> I can't imagine why they thought it was unimportant they could simply ignore it
  750. # [18:16] <Philip`> s/was/was so/
  751. # [18:23] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt)
  752. # [18:25] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/future/papers/roconnor.html - <?IS10744:arch name="HTML 5.0" public-id="-//W3C//NOTATION HTML 5.0 ARCHITECTURE//EN" dtd-public-id="-//W3C//DTD HTML 5.0//EN" doc-elem-form="HTML"> - yeah, I think I prefer <!doctype html>
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  755. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: maybe you can do a comparative analysis of RDF, XSD, and Architectural Forms
  756. # [18:28] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: In terms of how horrible they are? :)
  757. # [18:30] <Philip`> http://web.archive.org/web/20010606223122/www.sisu.se/~william/Papers/Image6.gif - wow
  758. # [18:31] <Dashiva> That's so... 90s
  759. # [18:33] <Philip`> I don't remember the 90s being that bad
  760. # [18:34] <Lachy> LOL, "The transition to supporting HTML architectures can be made easier by allowing user agent support to be optional" (from that HTML 5.0 paper Philip` linked to)
  761. # [18:35] <Lachy> I just wonder how intentional lack of support can make any transition easier
  762. # [18:35] <Dashiva> "Most authors will validate their documents against the HTML DTD since it provides enough structure."
  763. # [18:36] <Philip`> http://datapeak.net/images/Windows-95-Start-Button.png - even Win95 had nice 3Dish buttons and full-colour background images
  764. # [18:36] * Joins: webben_ (n=webben@nat/yahoo/x-010c6fb4ea6f3255)
  765. # [18:36] <Philip`> There's no excuse for using dark cyan as your primary UI colour
  766. # [18:36] <Dashiva> That's more like win3.11 days
  767. # [18:37] <Dashiva> Early 90s then :)
  768. # [18:37] <Philip`> But that screenshot was from 1998
  769. # [18:37] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.158)
  770. # [18:37] <Dashiva> Legacy software
  771. # [18:37] <Philip`> and the developers can't have kept it alive from the early 90s up until 1998 without tearing their eyeballs out
  772. # [18:38] <Dashiva> Maybe they're color blind?
  773. # [18:39] <Philip`> Does colour blindness give you the ability to read horrendously dithered logos?
  774. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> I'm looking forward to the day where people look back on the history of HTML5 and make smartass comments about what idiots we all were.
  775. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> wait, people are doing that already
  776. # [18:39] <Dashiva> We're ahead of the curve
  777. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> so we are way ahead of the curve
  778. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> damn, we even think the same things at the same time
  779. # [18:40] <Lachy> you idiots!
  780. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> HTML5 borg collective
  781. # [18:40] <gsnedders> Another thing I'd like in html5lib: some way to indent a whole tree nicely
  782. # [18:40] <Dashiva> The vast #whatwg hivemind
  783. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: postprocess it through xmllint --format --html
  784. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> if's it html
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  786. # [18:42] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: How does that cope with optional tags? Does it just parse it and serialize it? If so, libxml2's serializer has issues
  787. # [18:42] <Philip`> Lachy: That wasn't a smartass comment, that was just hurtful and abusive :'-(
  788. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: dunno
  789. # [18:43] <Lachy> Philip`, :-)
  790. # [18:43] <Philip`> Does it indent <pre> and <textarea> contents too?
  791. # [18:43] <Dashiva> Philip`: How do you think XHTML sites feel when you push invalid content on them?
  792. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> Philip`: probably
  793. # [18:45] <mpt> Dashiva, jaundiced
  794. # [18:45] <Philip`> Dashiva: They are relieved to be free from the burden of publishing large quantities of information, and happy to sit back and relax in the warm yellow glow
  795. # [18:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: But I use WebKit based browsers! :'(
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  797. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> "I repeat B.S again." is an interesting statement
  798. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> maybe we should have a rule that anybody working on standards related to browser technologies should have to work at a browser project for 3 months or something
  799. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> doing QA and responding to bug reports
  800. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> like military service
  801. # [18:55] <mpt> Do user interface bug reports count?
  802. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> mpt: they count for half
  803. # [19:00] <Philip`> Is 3 months long enough for people to stop saying "RESOLVED INVALID: your page is ugly tag soup and doesn't validate, you should fix it before complaining about bugs" in response to every report?
  804. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> Philip`: that's what we have the electric shocker for
  805. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> all part of the plan
  806. # [19:02] <mpt> That was part of the original plan for Mozuki
  807. # [19:02] <mpt> If pages didn't validate, style sheets would be ignored
  808. # [19:03] <mpt> I don't think anyone ever used that browser, though
  809. # [19:03] <Dashiva> What about @style?
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  811. # [19:08] <sicking> hsivonen, ping
  812. # [19:13] <Philip`> mpt: http://web.archive.org/web/20000817010453/http://www.infidels.org/~meta/mozuki/ ?
  813. # [19:14] * Philip` fails to find any more information on it
  814. # [19:15] <mpt> That's the one!
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  817. # [19:29] <Philip`> hsivonen: Is there a sensible reason why processingInstruction adds a space at the end if 'data' ends in '?'?
  818. # [19:29] <Philip`> (i.e. processingInstruction("foo", "?") becomes <?foo ? ?> instead of <?foo ??>)
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  820. # [19:32] <annevk5> hober, dude, there's no 1998 XHTML namespace
  821. # [19:41] <Philip`> annevk5: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22www.w3.org%2F1998%2Fxhtml - some people disagree
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  824. # [19:42] <annevk5> that's awesome
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  826. # [19:52] * mpt is momentarily confused as to why annevk5 isn't annevk6n
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  828. # [19:52] <annevk5> http://twitter.com/WoollyMittens/statuses/1199866236 ?
  829. # [19:52] <annevk5> mpt, what's the n?
  830. # [19:53] <mpt> annevk5, the last letter, as in i18n and l10n
  831. # [19:54] <annevk5> :)
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  833. # [19:58] <hober> annevk5: yeah, I was just repeating what larry said in his email. s/8/9/g.
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  847. # [20:32] <roc> hsivonen: I don't know what you mean by "official"
  848. # [20:33] <roc> but various Microsoft employees have acknowledged it in public statements
  849. # [20:33] <roc> I'm not aware of anyone trying to pretend they were working on IE7 all along
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  856. # [20:45] <millam> Anybody here working on video and media elements (related to accessibility in particular) that I can yak with?
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  892. # [22:31] <Hixie> holy crap microsoft just licensed the IE logo as creative commons non-commercial by-attribution share-alike
  893. # [22:32] <Philip`> It's just a shame it's 17x17, not 16x16 :-)
  894. # [22:32] <virtuelv> Hixie: sauce?
  895. # [22:32] <Hixie> turns out i don't need it anymore either
  896. # [22:32] <Hixie> :-)
  897. # [22:34] <Philip`> virtuelv: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0240.html
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  899. # [22:36] <Philip`> In response to a message which isn't on public-html yet: Microsoft's test feedback cycle appears to be an awful lot slower than the usual approach where I comment on IRC to the person who wrote the test and they fix it
  900. # [22:38] <Lachy> it's too bad the share-alike licence makes it unusable in the spec too
  901. # [22:39] <Lachy> well, maybe it doesn't. It may just mean you can't use a more restrictive licence than share-alike
  902. # [22:39] <Philip`> That's better than the other icons, which don't come with any licensing information whatsoever
  903. # [22:45] <heycam> i wonder if showing it as less than full opacity is considered a derivative
  904. # [22:46] <heycam> *at less
  905. # [22:48] <Lachy> aargh, I wish that namespace issue in the HTMLWG would just be closed already. There's little point even discussing the issue further, since there is absolutely no technical justification for us using an alternative namespace.
  906. # [22:49] <Lachy> but it's nice to see Rob blatantly ignoring technical arguments again
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  908. # [22:53] <yecril71> Windows Help used green for hyperlinks, and so did the Macintosh port.
  909. # [22:53] <yecril71> QuickView.
  910. # [22:53] <Lachy> yecril71, it would be nice to have some context for your comments
  911. # [22:54] <yecril71> > Every color browser I have ever heard of back to the dawn of the Web uses blue for links.
  912. # [22:54] <Lachy> link?
  913. # [22:55] * Joins: doublec (n=chris@202.0.36.64)
  914. # [22:55] <Lachy> or at least a subject line
  915. # [22:55] <yecril71> Re: [whatwg] [html5] Rendering of interactive content
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  917. # [22:55] <yecril71> Admittedly, neither was a Web browser, of course.
  918. # [22:58] <virtuelv> windows help, while a hypertext system isn't HTML either
  919. # [22:58] <virtuelv> (isn't/wasn't, I don't know much about Microsoft after windows 2000, or thereabouts)
  920. # [22:59] <yecril71> It is blue now :-)
  921. # [22:59] <Lachy> virtuelv, the old windows help with green links wasn't. But they've since replaced it with HTML based help, now with blue links.
  922. # [23:00] * yecril71 envies virtuelv
  923. # [23:02] <yecril71> And AppleGuide had it blue too
  924. # [23:02] * heycam remembers writing horrible RTF and compiling to .hlp files many moons ago...
  925. # [23:03] * Philip` remembers not writing Windows help files, because he could never figure out how to do it or what tools he needed
  926. # [23:03] * yecril71 concurs to heycam
  927. # [23:04] <virtuelv> speaking of hypertext
  928. # [23:04] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@corp-246.mountainview.mozilla.com)
  929. # [23:04] <virtuelv> I'm a bit curious why no one ever made a hypertext-based text adventure
  930. # [23:05] <virtuelv> zork-as-html
  931. # [23:05] <svl> virtuelv: I've seen several back in the late 90s
  932. # [23:06] <svl> http://www.bradthegame.com/
  933. # [23:06] <svl> (some nsfw text a couple of clicks in)
  934. # [23:07] <virtuelv> neat idea
  935. # [23:08] <virtuelv> I still enjoy typing blindly as well, though
  936. # [23:11] <svl> Also http://www.versificator.co.uk/hamlet/ and http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/2662/highmess.html
  937. # [23:12] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.17.181)
  938. # [23:13] <svl> (and undoubtedly hundreds of others, but those are examples of the main three ways of controlling a game; plus of course most classics like zork and h2g2 have been ported to javascript and java and flash and ... implementations)
  939. # [23:14] * Quits: weinig_ (n=weinig@17.203.15.158) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  940. # [23:16] * Quits: smedero (n=smedero@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
  941. # [23:21] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  942. # [23:25] * Quits: kingryan (n=kingryan@adsl-99-27-42-97.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  943. # [23:31] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.17.181)
  944. # [23:33] * Quits: yecril71 (n=giecrilj@piekna-gts.2a.pl)
  945. # [23:35] <sicking> Hixie, ping
  946. # [23:42] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  947. # [23:44] * ojan is now known as ojan|eseidel
  948. # [23:52] * Quits: zalan (n=kvirc@dsl5400EDD3.pool.t-online.hu) ("KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/")
  949. # [23:55] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.17.181)
  950. # [23:55] <Hixie> sicking: pong
  951. # [23:58] <sicking> Hixie, so, this whole feedback from DOM into parser thing
  952. # [23:58] <Hixie> yeah
  953. # [23:58] <sicking> Hixie, what is the purpose of it? Why do we need to do different things depending on if there are children or not?
  954. # [23:59] <Hixie> it's residual style handling
  955. # [23:59] <sicking> Hixie, i tried to make some tests in the HTML5 livedom thing, but i couldn't figure out when having children made a difference
  956. # [23:59] <sicking> Hixie, do you have an example?
  957. # [23:59] <Hixie> let's see if i can construct one
  958. # Session Close: Thu Feb 12 00:00:00 2009

The end :)