/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Feb 14 00:00:01 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:27] <heycam`> Hixie, checking for it in CSSOM?
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  10. # [00:36] <Hixie> heycam`: CSSOM wouldn't expose this as far as i can tell
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  13. # [00:36] <Hixie> heycam`: since 'transparent' is the default
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  15. # [00:52] <heycam`> but transparent wouldn't be the default if it weren't supported, would it?
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  17. # [00:55] <Philip`> Wouldn't it be treated as #00a000 if the keyword wasn't supported, or something like that?
  18. # [00:56] <Hixie> oooh, good point
  19. # [00:56] <Philip`> Compare http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cbody%20bgcolor%3Dtransparent%3E vs http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cbody%20bgcolor%3Dtransparenx%3E
  20. # [00:56] <Hixie> indeed
  21. # [00:56] <Hixie> ok
  22. # [00:56] <Philip`> In IE6, the former looks white, the latter looks #0000e0
  23. # [00:57] <Hixie> so can anyone think of a way in which browsers differe in their handling of <body bgcolor=""> (empty) and <body bgcolor="transparent">?
  24. # [00:59] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Ehtml%7Bbackground%3Ablue%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20bgcolor%3D%22transparent%22%3E
  25. # [00:59] <Philip`> In IE6 it looks white
  26. # [00:59] <Philip`> (whereas bgcolor="" looks blue)
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  29. # [01:02] <Hixie> well making it map to body { background: transparent; } isn't going to solve that problem...
  30. # [01:05] <Philip`> I see quite a number of pages with bgcolor=transparent
  31. # [01:06] <Philip`> mostly on table elements, not body
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  33. # [01:06] <Philip`> but http://windows.radified.com/ has it on body
  34. # [01:06] <gsnedders> Can someone try emailing me@gsnedders.com?
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  37. # [01:17] <Hixie> Philip`: can you find a difference between bgcolor="" and bgcolor="Transparent" on <table>?
  38. # [01:17] <Hixie> the bgcolor=transparent on that site seems useless
  39. # [01:18] * Hixie risks getting even more hated by the rdf community
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  43. # [01:23] <Philip`> Hixie: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Etr%7Bbackground%3Ayellow%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20bgcolor%3Dblue%3E%0D%0A%3Ctable%3E%3Ctr%3E%3Ctd%20bgcolor%3D%22%22%3EA%3Ctd%20bgcolor%3Dtransparent%3EB%3C%2Ftable%3E
  44. # [01:23] <Philip`> That's not table, but it's close :-)
  45. # [01:23] * gsnedders throws Hixie some hatred
  46. # [01:28] <Philip`> (http://philip.html5.org/data/bgcolor-transparent.txt is all the bgcolor="transparent"s that I see)
  47. # [01:28] <Philip`> (and http://philip.html5.org/data/bgcolors.txt is counts of total occurrences of values)
  48. # [01:29] * Philip` sees a bgcolor="#(hex code here)"
  49. # [01:29] <gsnedders> Philip`: Can you get the latter list ignoring all conforming values
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  51. # [01:30] <Philip`> gsnedders: I don't know what's conforming
  52. # [01:30] <Philip`> gsnedders: but you could easily work it out and filter the list yourself :-)
  53. # [01:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: See: HTML 5
  54. # [01:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: No, I'm lazy.
  55. # [01:30] <gsnedders> :)
  56. # [01:30] <Philip`> gsnedders: Me too :-p
  57. # [01:30] <gsnedders> I know :P
  58. # [01:30] <gsnedders> I knew it was in vain.
  59. # [01:31] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe I should have sorted the bgcolor list in a proper ordering rather than whatever fancy English collation it's doing by default
  60. # [01:32] * Philip` uploads a new version of bgcolors.txt, now with all the #s grouped together, which is much more sensible
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  62. # [01:35] <Hixie> Philip`: what does IE do with that test case?
  63. # [01:36] <gsnedders> A double-backflip while whistling the Star Spangled Banner?
  64. # [01:36] * gsnedders hopes that's the correct reference
  65. # [01:36] <Hixie> btw the live dom viewer now has a "save" button that gives you a "short" url
  66. # [01:36] <Hixie> feel free to use it
  67. # [01:37] <Philip`> Hixie: The A cell has a yellow background, the B cell has a blue background (i.e. matching the body background)
  68. # [01:38] <Hixie> oh lordy
  69. # [01:38] <Hixie> that's... uh... non-trivial to emulate
  70. # [01:38] <Hixie> luckily the other browsers don't do it...
  71. # [01:39] <Philip`> Hixie: If I use the short URLs, and then your server crashes or is shut down and the short URL database is lost, then the whole future of humanity will be denied the knowledge of my tests
  72. # [01:39] <Hixie> it's true
  73. # [01:40] <Hixie> i can expose the database if you like... :-)
  74. # [01:40] <Philip`> whereas if I paste the long URL into IRC then it'll be copied into lots of people's private logs, and the web logs and caches and suchlike
  75. # [01:40] <Philip`> thus saving our grandchildren from such deprivation of knowledge
  76. # [01:40] <Hixie> fair enough :-)
  77. # [01:41] <Philip`> Hixie: Nah, exposing it would probably just be a waste of time :-p
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  83. # [02:21] <Hixie> Philip`: if you still have IE open, do you see anything indicating that it treats text="transparent" or link="transparent" on <body> any different than ""?
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  87. # [02:24] <Philip`> Hixie: Yes
  88. # [02:24] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Ehtml%7Bcolor%3Ared%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20text%3Dtransparent%3ETest - text is black
  89. # [02:25] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Ehtml%7Bcolor%3Ared%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20text%3D''%3ETest - text is red
  90. # [02:26] <Hixie> so what, IE uses "transparent" as a magic keyword that just does something random? :-/
  91. # [02:27] <Hixie> screw it, i'm just gonna make "transparent" and "" do the same thing, none of the other browsers do these crazy things
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  103. # [02:50] <Philip`> Hixie: Sounds reasonable :-)
  104. # [02:51] * Philip` finds that his wireless router has apparently vanished so he can no longer access the internet, and therefore goes to bed
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  180. # [10:46] <annevk42> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2821&to=2822 :)
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  184. # [11:22] * jgraham will fix pms.net now
  185. # [11:22] <jgraham> He said hopefully
  186. # [11:40] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lbcb6.l.pppool.de)
  187. # [11:40] * jgraham totally can't get pimpmyspec.net to crash by removing parameters
  188. # [11:53] <jgraham> Where ia Philip` when you want something broken?
  189. # [11:57] <Philip`> In bed
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  191. # [12:22] <gsnedders> In the real world, what SVG DOCTYPE should I use?
  192. # [12:24] <yecril71> Reminder: MSIE allows src="about:..." for doc="..."
  193. # [12:40] <hsivonen> gsnedders: none
  194. # [12:40] <hsivonen> gsnedders: DTDlessness FTW!
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  196. # [13:21] <gsnedders> hsivonen: k
  197. # [13:22] <Philip`> gsnedders: Use the SVG5 doctype, <!DOCTYPE svg>
  198. # [13:22] <gsnedders> :D
  199. # [13:23] <jgraham> gsnedders: BTW the only change I made to stop pms.net with html5lib was in anolis code
  200. # [13:24] <jgraham> Although I guess I might have broken it...
  201. # [13:24] <gsnedders> jgraham: patches welcome :)
  202. # [13:24] <jgraham> *crashing
  203. # [13:24] <jgraham> gsnedders: Shall I just make my repo of anolis public so that you can oull changes at your lesiure?
  204. # [13:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: that would be an easier solution :)
  205. # [13:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: Provided you actually commit to it
  206. # [13:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: Have you commited your changes to the web ui yet?
  207. # [13:28] <jgraham> gsnedders: http://hg.hoppipolla.co.uk/hgwebdir.cgi/anolis/
  208. # [13:28] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes, I committed the changes but all as one big bundle
  209. # [13:43] <heycam`> gsnedders, recommended is not to use a doctype
  210. # [13:43] * heycam` sleeps
  211. # [13:47] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
  212. # [13:54] * hsivonen found a MUST-level inpompatibility between XHTML2 and HTML5: fragment id support
  213. # [13:56] * hsivonen finds this gem in XHTML2: "Note that this specification does not generally specify the behavior of conforming implementations when presented with non-conforming documents. This is either defined by an underlying specification (e.g., [XML]) or left to the implementor."
  214. # [13:57] * Quits: zalan (n=kvirc@catv-89-133-232-199.catv.broadband.hu) ("KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/")
  215. # [14:06] * jgraham wonders if there is a way to download all the flickr api documentation at once
  216. # [14:07] <Philip`> wget -R?
  217. # [14:16] * jgraham
  218. # [14:19] <jgraham> Hmm not sure what I did there
  219. # [14:38] <gsnedders> You non-UTF-8'd us!
  220. # [14:40] <gsnedders> Oh dear. > 1200 unread emails.
  221. # [14:40] <gsnedders> I need to catch up.
  222. # [14:41] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-77-54.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  223. # [14:42] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-66-252.dynamic.amis.net)
  224. # [14:48] <jgraham> "Wrong question, developers as we see them today will be an anachronism,
  225. # [14:48] <jgraham> that's part of the fun.
  226. # [14:48] <jgraham> "
  227. # [14:48] <jgraham> And people wonder why there is skepticism about RDF(a)
  228. # [14:49] <jgraham> (that's from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0073.html btw)
  229. # [14:58] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-66-252.dynamic.amis.net) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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  234. # [14:58] <hsivonen> is <video> already deployed on Wikipedia somewere in such a way that it can be demoed with Firefox 3.1 today?
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  240. # [15:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: It seems like there are some videos, then you have to go to More... and Native Browser Support
  241. # [15:01] <jgraham> so it's maybe not the best demo)
  242. # [15:01] <hsivonen> jgraham: URL?
  243. # [15:02] <jgraham> ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Creation_and_usage_of_media_files#Video has some examples
  244. # [15:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks
  245. # [15:03] <hsivonen> wtf? does Wikipedia *prefer* QuickTime over native support?
  246. # [15:05] <jgraham> Yeah, the order seems to be Java->Quicktime->native->stills. I think there was some discussion of this but I don't recall what the reason was
  247. # [15:06] <hsivonen> that makes no sense. shouldn't it be Native, QuickTime, Java, Stills in order to make sense?
  248. # [15:08] <jgraham> That's what I would pick but there we go
  249. # [15:08] * jgraham decides it is time for food
  250. # [15:18] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  251. # [15:20] <hsivonen> I wonder if there's a simple way to find a clip with more action on wikipedia
  252. # [15:26] <Philip`> You could make one and then upload it to Wikipedia
  253. # [15:31] <hsivonen> is the Octopus clip howcome demoed on any real wikipedia page now?
  254. # [15:51] * Joins: pergj (n=pergj@cm-84.208.140.163.getinternet.no)
  255. # [16:26] * hsivonen ended up using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundhog
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  270. # [19:50] <gsnedders> selector specificity can be rather annoying
  271. # [19:55] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@La4b4.l.pppool.de)
  272. # [19:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: Just use !important and then it won't be a problem
  273. # [19:57] <gsnedders> Philip`: The problem is that breaks other stuff :P
  274. # [19:59] <Dashiva> We need !very-important
  275. # [20:00] <gsnedders> :P
  276. # [20:15] <takkaria> very-important isn't very extensible
  277. # [20:15] <takkaria> it should be !important(x)
  278. # [20:15] <takkaria> where x is an integer
  279. # [20:15] * Quits: pergj (n=pergj@cm-84.208.140.163.getinternet.no) ("Ex-Chat")
  280. # [20:15] <takkaria> and then if x == "inf", it's the most important
  281. # [20:26] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@95.34.27.22.customer.cdi.no)
  282. # [20:29] <Dashiva> takkaria: It's very extensible, quite literally. You extend it by adding another very :P
  283. # [20:41] <gsnedders> takkaria: What about inf+1?
  284. # [20:55] * Joins: ap (n=ap@194.154.88.42)
  285. # [20:58] <Philip`> gsnedders: Fortunately CSS doesn't allow arithmetic, so that case won't occur
  286. # [21:03] <Dashiva> expressions
  287. # [21:05] <Philip`> ?
  288. # [21:06] <Dashiva> IE's css expressions allow it
  289. # [21:12] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-168-225.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  290. # [21:12] <Philip`> Ah
  291. # [21:12] <Philip`> In that case Infinity+1 == Infinity so there's no problem
  292. # [21:23] <Dashiva> I see your namesake is aiming for a new high score in process ping pong
  293. # [21:29] <Philip`> Where abouts is that happening?
  294. # [21:30] <Dashiva> A few days ago on public-html
  295. # [21:30] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Dude, get with the times.
  296. # [21:30] <gsnedders> Dashiva: That was _days_ ago.
  297. # [21:30] <Philip`> Oh, you can't expect me to remember back that far
  298. # [21:30] <Philip`> I don't even remember what I was doing this morning
  299. # [21:30] <Dashiva> I'm having trouble keeping up with the traffic volume on public-html
  300. # [21:30] <Dashiva> (Not really, but I forget to check it)
  301. # [21:32] <Philip`> I think you should start a giant thread on the mailing list discussing the potential for using new communication technologies because of the large amount of traffic on the mailing list
  302. # [21:32] <Philip`> Also you should discuss whether the charter allows us to use new communication technologies instead of the list
  303. # [21:32] <Dashiva> Is opera.com down for everyone or just me? downforeveryoneorjustme.com isn't being helpful.
  304. # [21:33] <Philip`> Dashiva: It's either down or very slow for me
  305. # [21:33] <Dashiva> Thanks
  306. # [21:34] * Joins: roc (n=roc@www.mahurangi.school.nz)
  307. # [21:48] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@210-84-48-144.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  308. # [21:49] <Dashiva> This is somewhat disturbing: http://www.duelinganalogs.com/posting/1233936531/
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  316. # [23:01] <Dashiva> "I wrote something a while back that said, I don’t have to justify wanting RDFa, because RDF is, to me, a goal, not a solution."
  317. # [23:01] <Dashiva> Can you even say that with a straight face?
  318. # [23:02] * jcranmer shudders at hearing RDF
  319. # [23:02] <jcranmer> gut reaction
  320. # [23:03] <Dashiva> Ignore that it mentions RDFa for now
  321. # [23:03] <Dashiva> "I don't have to justify X, because X is a goal to me."
  322. # [23:03] <jcranmer> or, in short, "I don't have to justify wanting it because I want it"
  323. # [23:05] <Philip`> It seems quite reasonable to want something without justifying it, e.g. I might want chocolate cake for no particular reason; but it's not reasonable to expect anyone else to expend any effort to help you get that, if you don't try to demonstrate why their effort will be worthwhile
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  337. # Session Close: Sun Feb 15 00:00:00 2009

The end :)